Restless leg syndrome and neurofeedback

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks,

Someone has asked me whether nfb will help her with restless leg syndrome and,

though I'm sure that it will, I would like to give her some more concrete

information. I've read the past posts on this topic and would welcome any

updates from you if you've trained someone with RLS in the last 3 years or so.

What did you see on any EEG assessment you did, what training did you do, and

how long was it before you saw results? This last one is very important in

helping her decide whether nfb training would be feasible. I'm going to suggest

that we do an assessment in any case.

Also, can anyone point me towards work/explanations on the neural mechanisms

that produce RLS? If you had a box model with lots of nice differential

equations that would be lovely, but any pointers at all would be very welcome!

Interestingly, when the lady had a bereavement - deep sorrow and crying a lot -

her leg symptoms (uncontrollable urge to get up and walk at night) abated. Any

ideas on that? Ropinirole helps on a short-term basis but she feels it is making

things worse long-term.

Many thanks,

Gillian

[Guest guest]

Gillian,I assume you've probably gotten back-channel responses to your question from our invisible posters, but since I haven't seen any answer to you yet, I'll give it a shot..Restless leg, like bruxism, sleep-onset insomnia and gross or fine motor responses (clumsiness, poor handwriting) all seem to be related to problems in the dopamine system and the sensory motor cortex.  Training at Cz/A2 or C4/A2 or C3/C4 to increse SMR and reduce slow (2-5 or 3-7 Hz) and, if excessive, very fast (23-38 Hz) activity.  This is one of the oldest and most used and published training approaches.  It often works fairly quickly, so I'd expect to see some improvement anywhere from after a single session to around 10 sessions.  But your question is rather like asking, if I start this diet, when will I lose weight?  It varies with the client.  More importantly, the fact of seeing an improvement after some training doesn't mean it will stabilize that quickly.  When you can train once a week or once in two weeks and you don't see a return of the symptoms, chances are the brain has changed its stable pattern.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Gillian <gillian.m.hayes@...> wrote:

Someone has asked me whether nfb will help her with restless leg syndrome and, though I'm sure that it will, I would like to give her some more concrete information. I've read the past posts on this topic and would welcome any updates from you if you've trained someone with RLS in the last 3 years or so.

What did you see on any EEG assessment you did, what training did you do, and how long was it before you saw results? This last one is very important in helping her decide whether nfb training would be feasible. I'm going to suggest that we do an assessment in any case.

Also, can anyone point me towards work/explanations on the neural mechanisms that produce RLS? If you had a box model with lots of nice differential equations that would be lovely, but any pointers at all would be very welcome!

Interestingly, when the lady had a bereavement - deep sorrow and crying a lot - her leg symptoms (uncontrollable urge to get up and walk at night) abated. Any ideas on that? Ropinirole helps on a short-term basis but she feels it is making things worse long-term.

[Guest guest]

Gillian,I assume you've probably gotten back-channel responses to your question from our invisible posters, but since I haven't seen any answer to you yet, I'll give it a shot..Restless leg, like bruxism, sleep-onset insomnia and gross or fine motor responses (clumsiness, poor handwriting) all seem to be related to problems in the dopamine system and the sensory motor cortex.  Training at Cz/A2 or C4/A2 or C3/C4 to increse SMR and reduce slow (2-5 or 3-7 Hz) and, if excessive, very fast (23-38 Hz) activity.  This is one of the oldest and most used and published training approaches.  It often works fairly quickly, so I'd expect to see some improvement anywhere from after a single session to around 10 sessions.  But your question is rather like asking, if I start this diet, when will I lose weight?  It varies with the client.  More importantly, the fact of seeing an improvement after some training doesn't mean it will stabilize that quickly.  When you can train once a week or once in two weeks and you don't see a return of the symptoms, chances are the brain has changed its stable pattern.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Gillian <gillian.m.hayes@...> wrote:

Someone has asked me whether nfb will help her with restless leg syndrome and, though I'm sure that it will, I would like to give her some more concrete information. I've read the past posts on this topic and would welcome any updates from you if you've trained someone with RLS in the last 3 years or so.

What did you see on any EEG assessment you did, what training did you do, and how long was it before you saw results? This last one is very important in helping her decide whether nfb training would be feasible. I'm going to suggest that we do an assessment in any case.

Also, can anyone point me towards work/explanations on the neural mechanisms that produce RLS? If you had a box model with lots of nice differential equations that would be lovely, but any pointers at all would be very welcome!

Interestingly, when the lady had a bereavement - deep sorrow and crying a lot - her leg symptoms (uncontrollable urge to get up and walk at night) abated. Any ideas on that? Ropinirole helps on a short-term basis but she feels it is making things worse long-term.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete. I did think that one would be very likely to see a response quite

quickly - good to know I've learnt something!

Gillian

>

> Gillian,

>

> I assume you've probably gotten back-channel responses to your question from

> our invisible posters, but since I haven't seen any answer to you yet, I'll

> give it a shot..

>

> Restless leg, like bruxism, sleep-onset insomnia and gross or fine motor

> responses (clumsiness, poor handwriting) all seem to be related to problems

> in the dopamine system and the sensory motor cortex. Training at Cz/A2 or

> C4/A2 or C3/C4 to increse SMR and reduce slow (2-5 or 3-7 Hz) and, if

> excessive, very fast (23-38 Hz) activity. This is one of the oldest and

> most used and published training approaches. It often works fairly quickly,

> so I'd expect to see some improvement anywhere from after a single session

> to around 10 sessions. But your question is rather like asking, if I start

> this diet, when will I lose weight? It varies with the client. More

> importantly, the fact of seeing an improvement after some training doesn't

> mean it will stabilize that quickly. When you can train once a week or once

> in two weeks and you don't see a return of the symptoms, chances are the

> brain has changed its stable pattern.

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

Gillian,

I know of two people who use binaural beats at 13hz at bedtime. It

has been quite helpful for them.

georgemartin@...

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Gillian wrote:

> Thanks Pete. I did think that one would be very likely to see a

> response quite quickly - good to know I've learnt something!

>

> Gillian

>

>

>>

>> Gillian,

>>

>> I assume you've probably gotten back-channel responses to your

>> question from

>> our invisible posters, but since I haven't seen any answer to you

>> yet, I'll

>> give it a shot..

>>

>> Restless leg, like bruxism, sleep-onset insomnia and gross or fine

>> motor

>> responses (clumsiness, poor handwriting) all seem to be related to

>> problems

>> in the dopamine system and the sensory motor cortex. Training at

>> Cz/A2 or

>> C4/A2 or C3/C4 to increse SMR and reduce slow (2-5 or 3-7 Hz) and, if

>> excessive, very fast (23-38 Hz) activity. This is one of the

>> oldest and

>> most used and published training approaches. It often works fairly

>> quickly,

>> so I'd expect to see some improvement anywhere from after a single

>> session

>> to around 10 sessions. But your question is rather like asking, if

>> I start

>> this diet, when will I lose weight? It varies with the client. More

>> importantly, the fact of seeing an improvement after some training

>> doesn't

>> mean it will stabilize that quickly. When you can train once a

>> week or once

>> in two weeks and you don't see a return of the symptoms, chances

>> are the

>> brain has changed its stable pattern.

>>

>> Pete

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks . This prompted me to spend a few hours looking at gnaural, an open source binaural beats program at gnaural.sourceforge.net . It's not that intuitive (but free) and the author has some really cool examples of what you can do with it. Does anyone have a favourite binaural beats program, preferably with a nice interface, that I could use to make mp3s?

GillianOn 15 April 2010 22:30, <gmartin@...> wrote:

 

Gillian,

I know of two people who use binaural beats at 13hz at bedtime. It

has been quite helpful for them.

georgemartin@...

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks . This prompted me to spend a few hours looking at gnaural, an open source binaural beats program at gnaural.sourceforge.net . It's not that intuitive (but free) and the author has some really cool examples of what you can do with it. Does anyone have a favourite binaural beats program, preferably with a nice interface, that I could use to make mp3s?

GillianOn 15 April 2010 22:30, <gmartin@...> wrote:

 

Gillian,

I know of two people who use binaural beats at 13hz at bedtime. It

has been quite helpful for them.

georgemartin@...

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

[Guest guest]

Gillan,

Brain wave generator.

http://www.bwgen.com/download.htm.

Regards,

Kent.

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Gillian

Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 8:34

AM

Subject: Re: Re:

Restless leg syndrome and neurofeedback

Thanks . This prompted me to spend a

few hours looking at gnaural, an open source binaural beats program at gnaural.sourceforge.net . It's not

that intuitive (but free) and the author has some really cool examples of what

you can do with it. Does anyone have a favourite binaural beats program,

preferably with a nice interface, that I could use to make mp3s?

Gillian

On 15 April 2010 22:30, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Gillian,

I know of two people who use binaural beats at 13hz at bedtime. It

has been quite helpful for them.

georgemartin@...

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

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[Guest guest]

Gillan,

Brain wave generator.

http://www.bwgen.com/download.htm.

Regards,

Kent.

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Gillian

Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 8:34

AM

Subject: Re: Re:

Restless leg syndrome and neurofeedback

Thanks . This prompted me to spend a

few hours looking at gnaural, an open source binaural beats program at gnaural.sourceforge.net . It's not

that intuitive (but free) and the author has some really cool examples of what

you can do with it. Does anyone have a favourite binaural beats program,

preferably with a nice interface, that I could use to make mp3s?

Gillian

On 15 April 2010 22:30, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Gillian,

I know of two people who use binaural beats at 13hz at bedtime. It

has been quite helpful for them.

georgemartin@...

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2817 - Release Date: 04/19/10 04:31:00

[Guest guest]

Gillian,Transparent Corp. sells neuroprogrammer, It has the ability to mix beats with music tracks and also has several other modes for entrainment georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com On Apr 18, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Gillian wrote:gnaural.sourceforge.net

[Guest guest]

Gillian,Transparent Corp. sells neuroprogrammer, It has the ability to mix beats with music tracks and also has several other modes for entrainment georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com On Apr 18, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Gillian wrote:gnaural.sourceforge.net