NF and depression

[Guest guest]



Hi Nick

Thanks for the alert. I couldn't find the article. Can you provide a more specific link.

Mark

NF and depression

Friends: There is an article in todays NY Times (4/8/10), relating insominia to depression,which might be of real importance to neurofeedback therapy with respect to easing depression. Below is a quote from the article -- the full report can be found at <http//global.nytimes.com>.

" a small area of the cerebral cortex in the front of the brain — the anterior cingulate cortex — which was consistently overactive in depressed patients, quieted to normal levels of activity after the patients were deprived of sleep. And when the patients were allowed to sleep, the activity in this area returned to the elevated levels.

Helen Mayberg at Emory University has shown that electrical stimulation of the anterior cingulate cortex, which disrupts normal activity, also reduces depression. Some patients reported feeling immediate relief and calm after the procedure"

nick mammano

[Guest guest]

Some are having trouble locating the article regarding NF and depression in the NYTimes so I've attached it to this e-mail as a word document.

nick mammano

1 of 1 File(s)

sleepless nights.doc

[Guest guest]

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

..

[Guest guest]

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete. I had overlooked comparing Fz to F3 and F4. Your reminder of the role of the AC helped too. Additionally Swingle now also looks at the ratio of Lo Alpha to High Alpha at Fz ie 8 to 10Hz cf to 11-12 Hz. The ratio in his opinion should be lower than 1.5.

Mark

Re: NF and depression

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get "hot" ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress. When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively. As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency. If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same. If Fz is significantly different (see the "Blocking" information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause. Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderlbigpond (DOT) net.au> wrote:

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Low alpha (8-10) should be 1.5 times HIGHER than high alpha (10=12) at Fz?!  Sounds like a recipe for depression, demotivation and all kinds of cognitive problems.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Pete. I had overlooked comparing Fz to F3 and F4. Your reminder of the role of the AC helped too. Additionally Swingle now also looks at the ratio of Lo Alpha to High Alpha at Fz ie 8 to 10Hz cf to 11-12 Hz. The ratio in his opinion should be lower than 1.5.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Low alpha (8-10) should be 1.5 times HIGHER than high alpha (10=12) at Fz?!  Sounds like a recipe for depression, demotivation and all kinds of cognitive problems.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Pete. I had overlooked comparing Fz to F3 and F4. Your reminder of the role of the AC helped too. Additionally Swingle now also looks at the ratio of Lo Alpha to High Alpha at Fz ie 8 to 10Hz cf to 11-12 Hz. The ratio in his opinion should be lower than 1.5.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

It probably would be more useful to talk about visible and invisible structures.  The cortex, the hippocampus (inside each temporal lobe) and the cingulate are all composed with pyramidal neurons, so they produce a signal that appears in the EEG.  Most of the primary sub-cortical players (thalamas, hypothalamus, amygdala, basal ganglia, etc.) are composed primarily of stellate neurons, which don't produce a visible EEG signal.

Obviously most of what we see in the EEG is the largest and closest-to-the-surface cortex, but in some cases it's possible to see the " shadow " of the subcortical hippocampus or cingulate cast onto the cortex.  In the TLC we assume that, if connections were properly made with the electrodes, and absent some kind of injury, F3 and F4 will be largely alike and symmetrical.  Since they share a fronteir at Fz, Fz should look a lot like the two sides.  When it doesn't, it is a fair bet that we are seeing the activity of the cingulate.  To a lesser degree this may be true with activity seen in the temporals.

The real question, though, is whether you can tell what the thalamus, etc. are doing by looking at the EEG.  You may recall from my courses that I like to say to this analogy:  If I put a puppy on a table, then covered it with a blanket, you would no longer be able to see the puppy, but you could probably have a pretty good idea what the puppy was doing.  In that way, we can often get a good idea what the sub-cortical puppy is doing by watching the cortical blanket.

Part of the reason for this is that many of those structures are rhythm generators.  The thalamus produces slow alpha, fast alpha, slow theta and SMR in different sets of nuclei, and those frequencies are projected all over the head.  The hippocampus produces the 6-8 Hz " hippocampal theta " frequency.  So if we see that alpha is generally slow around the cortex, chances are that the lower energy thalamic nucleii are dominating.  If we look in the sensory-motor cortex between C3 and C4, and we see high levels of slow theta and low levels of SMR, that too would suggest the thalamus was probably not doing its screening function very well.  Cz is heavily connected to the basal ganglia, which are much involved in controlling physical activity (some say they compare what was actually done with what the brain expected to be done), so Cz is an excellent place to train for those kinds of issues.  The amygdala, also inside the temporal lobes wrapped up with the hippocampus, seems to be visitble--or at least projectible--by looking at the temporal lobes which may themselves be enervated by the amygdala or by the hippocampus which gets heated up by an overactive amygdala.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

It probably would be more useful to talk about visible and invisible structures.  The cortex, the hippocampus (inside each temporal lobe) and the cingulate are all composed with pyramidal neurons, so they produce a signal that appears in the EEG.  Most of the primary sub-cortical players (thalamas, hypothalamus, amygdala, basal ganglia, etc.) are composed primarily of stellate neurons, which don't produce a visible EEG signal.

Obviously most of what we see in the EEG is the largest and closest-to-the-surface cortex, but in some cases it's possible to see the " shadow " of the subcortical hippocampus or cingulate cast onto the cortex.  In the TLC we assume that, if connections were properly made with the electrodes, and absent some kind of injury, F3 and F4 will be largely alike and symmetrical.  Since they share a fronteir at Fz, Fz should look a lot like the two sides.  When it doesn't, it is a fair bet that we are seeing the activity of the cingulate.  To a lesser degree this may be true with activity seen in the temporals.

The real question, though, is whether you can tell what the thalamus, etc. are doing by looking at the EEG.  You may recall from my courses that I like to say to this analogy:  If I put a puppy on a table, then covered it with a blanket, you would no longer be able to see the puppy, but you could probably have a pretty good idea what the puppy was doing.  In that way, we can often get a good idea what the sub-cortical puppy is doing by watching the cortical blanket.

Part of the reason for this is that many of those structures are rhythm generators.  The thalamus produces slow alpha, fast alpha, slow theta and SMR in different sets of nuclei, and those frequencies are projected all over the head.  The hippocampus produces the 6-8 Hz " hippocampal theta " frequency.  So if we see that alpha is generally slow around the cortex, chances are that the lower energy thalamic nucleii are dominating.  If we look in the sensory-motor cortex between C3 and C4, and we see high levels of slow theta and low levels of SMR, that too would suggest the thalamus was probably not doing its screening function very well.  Cz is heavily connected to the basal ganglia, which are much involved in controlling physical activity (some say they compare what was actually done with what the brain expected to be done), so Cz is an excellent place to train for those kinds of issues.  The amygdala, also inside the temporal lobes wrapped up with the hippocampus, seems to be visitble--or at least projectible--by looking at the temporal lobes which may themselves be enervated by the amygdala or by the hippocampus which gets heated up by an overactive amygdala.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

It probably would be more useful to talk about visible and invisible structures.  The cortex, the hippocampus (inside each temporal lobe) and the cingulate are all composed with pyramidal neurons, so they produce a signal that appears in the EEG.  Most of the primary sub-cortical players (thalamas, hypothalamus, amygdala, basal ganglia, etc.) are composed primarily of stellate neurons, which don't produce a visible EEG signal.

Obviously most of what we see in the EEG is the largest and closest-to-the-surface cortex, but in some cases it's possible to see the " shadow " of the subcortical hippocampus or cingulate cast onto the cortex.  In the TLC we assume that, if connections were properly made with the electrodes, and absent some kind of injury, F3 and F4 will be largely alike and symmetrical.  Since they share a fronteir at Fz, Fz should look a lot like the two sides.  When it doesn't, it is a fair bet that we are seeing the activity of the cingulate.  To a lesser degree this may be true with activity seen in the temporals.

The real question, though, is whether you can tell what the thalamus, etc. are doing by looking at the EEG.  You may recall from my courses that I like to say to this analogy:  If I put a puppy on a table, then covered it with a blanket, you would no longer be able to see the puppy, but you could probably have a pretty good idea what the puppy was doing.  In that way, we can often get a good idea what the sub-cortical puppy is doing by watching the cortical blanket.

Part of the reason for this is that many of those structures are rhythm generators.  The thalamus produces slow alpha, fast alpha, slow theta and SMR in different sets of nuclei, and those frequencies are projected all over the head.  The hippocampus produces the 6-8 Hz " hippocampal theta " frequency.  So if we see that alpha is generally slow around the cortex, chances are that the lower energy thalamic nucleii are dominating.  If we look in the sensory-motor cortex between C3 and C4, and we see high levels of slow theta and low levels of SMR, that too would suggest the thalamus was probably not doing its screening function very well.  Cz is heavily connected to the basal ganglia, which are much involved in controlling physical activity (some say they compare what was actually done with what the brain expected to be done), so Cz is an excellent place to train for those kinds of issues.  The amygdala, also inside the temporal lobes wrapped up with the hippocampus, seems to be visitble--or at least projectible--by looking at the temporal lobes which may themselves be enervated by the amygdala or by the hippocampus which gets heated up by an overactive amygdala.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Thank you for such a thorough and informative response, Pete. I am " starring " it as something to continue to refer to as I keep learning.LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Thank you for such a thorough and informative response, Pete. I am " starring " it as something to continue to refer to as I keep learning.LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Pete,What's the relationship between EEG signal and the " deep structures " (I'm thinking the anterior cingulate is a " deep structure " )? Is the EEG always a sign of what's going on " beneath " ? How do we determine the relevance of the electrical activity " above " an area you are looking at? (relevance in this case means correlation with)

LizOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Mark,Since the anterior cingulate is active in controlling the flow of emotional material to the prefrontal--like a mixing valve for intellectual and emotional elements in the decision-making process--when it is stressed by trying to block LOTS of material, it can get " hot " ( Amen's term), and this is often a period of anxiety (which precedes depression for many folks) and stress.  When the cingulate (and or adrenals) start to get tired, then the cingulate (at Fz) can begin to show slow activity and perform its function(s) less effectively.  As Tom Brownback taught us, it's the site, stupid--not the frequency.  If there is excessive emotion entering the decision-making process (as there often is with depression) look at the anterior cingulate and see what's there rather than looking for a specific frquency.

As I've written here before, if you compare F3, F4 and Fz, they should be largely the same.  If Fz is significantly different (see the " Blocking " information and graph--including the Swingle Ratio--on the Analyze page of the TLC.

Finally, while this finding about the anterior cingulate is interesting, it's very important to consider the possibility that it is a result--not a cause.  Left frontal slowing, left/right alpha reversals and front/back alpha reversals would still be very high on my list of things to watch for in determining what to test in training depression.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick

Thanks for the link. A quick response would be to investigate training the anterior cyngulate via Fz. What markers to look for? Maybe Swingle's markers for Fz or any

anomaly picked up by the TLC assessment. Interested in others'thoughts on a neurofeedback application of this and what the EEg signature of activity at Fz would be.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete

I'm getting confused here Swingle says the lo to high Alpha should be LOWER than 1.5 otherwise cognitive problems etc.Are you saying it should be HIGHER>

Mark

Re: NF and depression

Low alpha (8-10) should be 1.5 times HIGHER than high alpha (10=12) at Fz?! Sounds like a recipe for depression, demotivation and all kinds of cognitive problems.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderlbigpond (DOT) net.au> wrote:

Thanks Pete. I had overlooked comparing Fz to F3 and F4. Your reminder of the role of the AC helped too. Additionally Swingle now also looks at the ratio of Lo Alpha to High Alpha at Fz ie 8 to 10Hz cf to 11-12 Hz. The ratio in his opinion should be lower than 1.5.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete

I'm getting confused here Swingle says the lo to high Alpha should be LOWER than 1.5 otherwise cognitive problems etc.Are you saying it should be HIGHER>

Mark

Re: NF and depression

Low alpha (8-10) should be 1.5 times HIGHER than high alpha (10=12) at Fz?! Sounds like a recipe for depression, demotivation and all kinds of cognitive problems.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderlbigpond (DOT) net.au> wrote:

Thanks Pete. I had overlooked comparing Fz to F3 and F4. Your reminder of the role of the AC helped too. Additionally Swingle now also looks at the ratio of Lo Alpha to High Alpha at Fz ie 8 to 10Hz cf to 11-12 Hz. The ratio in his opinion should be lower than 1.5.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Low to high alpha means 8-10 Hz amplitude divided by 10-12 Hz amplitude.  If the alpha peak should be very close to 10, and we want there to be more high than low, then that ratio should be above or very nearly 1.0.  Higher is okay up to a point, though high alpha peaks in the front are often related to anxiety, so probably 1.5 would be pretty high.  I've never used that ratio, but if I see peak frequencies in the front above about 10.1 or 10.2 and see anxiety, I would consider them high.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Pete

I'm getting confused here Swingle says the lo to high Alpha should be LOWER than 1.5 otherwise cognitive problems etc.Are you saying it should be HIGHER>

Mark

[Guest guest]

Low to high alpha means 8-10 Hz amplitude divided by 10-12 Hz amplitude.  If the alpha peak should be very close to 10, and we want there to be more high than low, then that ratio should be above or very nearly 1.0.  Higher is okay up to a point, though high alpha peaks in the front are often related to anxiety, so probably 1.5 would be pretty high.  I've never used that ratio, but if I see peak frequencies in the front above about 10.1 or 10.2 and see anxiety, I would consider them high.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Pete

I'm getting confused here Swingle says the lo to high Alpha should be LOWER than 1.5 otherwise cognitive problems etc.Are you saying it should be HIGHER>

Mark