Re: Neurofeedback effectiveness

[Guest guest]

Hi Judy,

You are correct to question the benefits of neurofeedback. It is a

tool, not a cure. As any tool, how it is use depends on the user

not the tool. A paint brush in Rembrandt hand is not the same as

Tom .

Your son situation is complex and each of the various aspects needs to be

address, including at what age did you adopt your son, what happened to

him growing up, nutrition, sleep patterns, family dynamics and the brain

injury. Most protocols are designed for average situations

and are very effective.

However, what you have written and presented in not average.

If you are not getting the results you had hope for, it is not the

neurofeedback, which does work exceedingly well for my patients with

TBI. I have patients that have extremely severe brain injury who

have benefited from 50-100 sessions of neurofeedback.

It is clear that you need to discuss with your sons neurofeedback

practitioner how many patients has this person helped with TBI.

What is their success rate. How long do they think it will take for

your son to recover. These question need to be addressed with

the clinican.

Hope this has helped and clarified your concern.

Best Regards,

Diane

On 03/18/2010 12:44:34 PM, Judy (artstar3232@...) wrote:

> I am just a consumer, not a neurofeedback practitioner, so

perhaps this

> is not the correct place to ask this but I can not find another

group that

> might be more appropriate.

> My 40 year-old adopted son was labeled " slow " and had

numerous behavioral

> issues as a child. As an adult, he does well if supervised but

poorly on

> his own and is too high functioning to receive assistance. A

Brainmap in

> Nov. 09 showed a TBI Probability Index 85% Severity 3.54 on the left

side.

> So far,

> he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement

has been minimal at best. A second Brainmap shows decrease in anxiety but

it hasn't

> manifested itself in his overall behavior very much.

> It's same stuff, different day. His practitioner is recommending 30

more sessions " to accomplish what we set out " .

> I understand that not everyone benefits from neurofeedback. At what

point can that be determined? I don't

> want to spend more money for something that isn't working.

>

> Judy

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Judy,

You are correct to question the benefits of neurofeedback. It is a

tool, not a cure. As any tool, how it is use depends on the user

not the tool. A paint brush in Rembrandt hand is not the same as

Tom .

Your son situation is complex and each of the various aspects needs to be

address, including at what age did you adopt your son, what happened to

him growing up, nutrition, sleep patterns, family dynamics and the brain

injury. Most protocols are designed for average situations

and are very effective.

However, what you have written and presented in not average.

If you are not getting the results you had hope for, it is not the

neurofeedback, which does work exceedingly well for my patients with

TBI. I have patients that have extremely severe brain injury who

have benefited from 50-100 sessions of neurofeedback.

It is clear that you need to discuss with your sons neurofeedback

practitioner how many patients has this person helped with TBI.

What is their success rate. How long do they think it will take for

your son to recover. These question need to be addressed with

the clinican.

Hope this has helped and clarified your concern.

Best Regards,

Diane

On 03/18/2010 12:44:34 PM, Judy (artstar3232@...) wrote:

> I am just a consumer, not a neurofeedback practitioner, so

perhaps this

> is not the correct place to ask this but I can not find another

group that

> might be more appropriate.

> My 40 year-old adopted son was labeled " slow " and had

numerous behavioral

> issues as a child. As an adult, he does well if supervised but

poorly on

> his own and is too high functioning to receive assistance. A

Brainmap in

> Nov. 09 showed a TBI Probability Index 85% Severity 3.54 on the left

side.

> So far,

> he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement

has been minimal at best. A second Brainmap shows decrease in anxiety but

it hasn't

> manifested itself in his overall behavior very much.

> It's same stuff, different day. His practitioner is recommending 30

more sessions " to accomplish what we set out " .

> I understand that not everyone benefits from neurofeedback. At what

point can that be determined? I don't

> want to spend more money for something that isn't working.

>

> Judy

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

RE: “So far, he's completed fifty sessions of

neurofeedback. Improvement has been minimal at best.” . . . When do

you determine if someone will benefit?

=================================

By the time someone is 40, there are a lot of serious stuck

patterns. Could it take a while to make progress. Absolutely. In

addition, males in particular- can be very poor at noticing change even when

some are occurring. It’s a challenge.

But if you’re 50 sessions in and truly seeing minimal

change, I’d consider several options.

1) Has the clinician you are working with gotten consultations

from other experts in the field about changing his approach. Most

clinicians I know would be scrambling long before this to get help/ideas from

other clinicians/experts. No one wants to have a client 50 sessions in –

and with little progress. No one approach to training always works.

2) There are many different systems and models. Some work

better than others. One of the reasons that many experienced clinicians end

up with multiple types of systems and tools over time is that they’ve

learned – some people do much better with one system (and their accompanying

model) than another. I’ve had clients that didn’t make much

progress on “regular” EEG biofeedback training (for example with

EEGer) and then did great when I switched them to LENS. Or vice

versa. Or someone who did great with LENS and HEG or HEG and EEG –

but not with either by themselves.

There’s no easy answer. There are clinicians who seem

to be able to make one system work for many kinds of clients.

IN addition, even with one system there are many, many different

type of protocols. I (and others) have had protocols that worked

spectacularly – but you would have never done them if you relied on the

brain map.

3) Metabolic problems. If someone has a significant

problem with thyroid, or with adrenals or hormones: If they have severe

deficits in magnesium or zinc or Vitamin D (as examples). If they have

severe hidden food allergies that is undiagnosed – these and more issues

could in fact could prevent progress with neurofeedback. Many clinicians

have found when people are also addressing these issues, that neurofeedback

often works better.

Cohen

www.CenterforBrain.com

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Judy

Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:45 PM

Subject: Neurofeedback effectiveness

I am just a consumer, not a neurofeedback practitioner, so perhaps this is not

the correct place to ask this but I can not find another group that might be

more appropriate.

My 40 year-old adopted son was labeled " slow " and had numerous

behavioral issues as a child. As an adult, he does well if supervised but

poorly on his own and is too high functioning to receive assistance. A Brainmap

in Nov. 09 showed a TBI Probability Index 85% Severity 3.54 on the left side.

So far, he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement has been

minimal at best. A second Brainmap shows decrease in anxiety but it hasn't

manifested itself in his overall behavior very much. It's same stuff, different

day. His practitioner is recommending 30 more sessions " to accomplish what

we set out " .

I understand that not everyone benefits from neurofeedback. At what point can

that be determined? I don't want to spend more money for something that isn't

working.

Judy

[Guest guest]

RE: “So far, he's completed fifty sessions of

neurofeedback. Improvement has been minimal at best.” . . . When do

you determine if someone will benefit?

=================================

By the time someone is 40, there are a lot of serious stuck

patterns. Could it take a while to make progress. Absolutely. In

addition, males in particular- can be very poor at noticing change even when

some are occurring. It’s a challenge.

But if you’re 50 sessions in and truly seeing minimal

change, I’d consider several options.

1) Has the clinician you are working with gotten consultations

from other experts in the field about changing his approach. Most

clinicians I know would be scrambling long before this to get help/ideas from

other clinicians/experts. No one wants to have a client 50 sessions in –

and with little progress. No one approach to training always works.

2) There are many different systems and models. Some work

better than others. One of the reasons that many experienced clinicians end

up with multiple types of systems and tools over time is that they’ve

learned – some people do much better with one system (and their accompanying

model) than another. I’ve had clients that didn’t make much

progress on “regular” EEG biofeedback training (for example with

EEGer) and then did great when I switched them to LENS. Or vice

versa. Or someone who did great with LENS and HEG or HEG and EEG –

but not with either by themselves.

There’s no easy answer. There are clinicians who seem

to be able to make one system work for many kinds of clients.

IN addition, even with one system there are many, many different

type of protocols. I (and others) have had protocols that worked

spectacularly – but you would have never done them if you relied on the

brain map.

3) Metabolic problems. If someone has a significant

problem with thyroid, or with adrenals or hormones: If they have severe

deficits in magnesium or zinc or Vitamin D (as examples). If they have

severe hidden food allergies that is undiagnosed – these and more issues

could in fact could prevent progress with neurofeedback. Many clinicians

have found when people are also addressing these issues, that neurofeedback

often works better.

Cohen

www.CenterforBrain.com

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Judy

Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:45 PM

Subject: Neurofeedback effectiveness

I am just a consumer, not a neurofeedback practitioner, so perhaps this is not

the correct place to ask this but I can not find another group that might be

more appropriate.

My 40 year-old adopted son was labeled " slow " and had numerous

behavioral issues as a child. As an adult, he does well if supervised but

poorly on his own and is too high functioning to receive assistance. A Brainmap

in Nov. 09 showed a TBI Probability Index 85% Severity 3.54 on the left side.

So far, he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement has been

minimal at best. A second Brainmap shows decrease in anxiety but it hasn't

manifested itself in his overall behavior very much. It's same stuff, different

day. His practitioner is recommending 30 more sessions " to accomplish what

we set out " .

I understand that not everyone benefits from neurofeedback. At what point can

that be determined? I don't want to spend more money for something that isn't

working.

Judy

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

You mention in your post that males over 40 have " serious stuck patterns. " I am

34 years old with anxiety and attention issues and am hoping that NFB alleviates

some of the symptoms I have with ADD. This individual apparently has very

serious cognitive issues that should also be taken into consideration, but I am

wondering what results you see with people in my situation and age?

>

> RE: " So far, he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement

> has been minimal at best. " . . . When do you determine if someone will

> benefit?

>

> =================================

>

> By the time someone is 40, there are a lot of serious stuck patterns. Could

> it take a while to make progress. Absolutely. In addition, males in

> particular- can be very poor at noticing change even when some are

> occurring. It's a challenge.

>

>

>

> But if you're 50 sessions in and truly seeing minimal change, I'd consider

> several options.

>

> 1) Has the clinician you are working with gotten consultations from other

> experts in the field about changing his approach. Most clinicians I know

> would be scrambling long before this to get help/ideas from other

> clinicians/experts. No one wants to have a client 50 sessions in - and with

> little progress. No one approach to training always works.

>

>

>

> 2) There are many different systems and models. Some work better than

> others. One of the reasons that many experienced clinicians end up with

> multiple types of systems and tools over time is that they've learned - some

> people do much better with one system (and their accompanying model) than

> another. I've had clients that didn't make much progress on " regular " EEG

> biofeedback training (for example with EEGer) and then did great when I

> switched them to LENS. Or vice versa. Or someone who did great with LENS

> and HEG or HEG and EEG - but not with either by themselves.

>

>

>

> There's no easy answer. There are clinicians who seem to be able to make

> one system work for many kinds of clients.

>

>

>

> IN addition, even with one system there are many, many different type of

> protocols. I (and others) have had protocols that worked spectacularly -

> but you would have never done them if you relied on the brain map.

>

>

>

> 3) Metabolic problems. If someone has a significant problem with thyroid,

> or with adrenals or hormones: If they have severe deficits in magnesium or

> zinc or Vitamin D (as examples). If they have severe hidden food allergies

> that is undiagnosed - these and more issues could in fact could prevent

> progress with neurofeedback. Many clinicians have found when people are

> also addressing these issues, that neurofeedback often works better.

>

>

>

> Cohen

>

> www.CenterforBrain.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> From: [mailto: ] On

> Behalf Of Judy

> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:45 PM

>

> Subject: Neurofeedback effectiveness

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I am just a consumer, not a neurofeedback practitioner, so perhaps this is

> not the correct place to ask this but I can not find another group that

> might be more appropriate.

> My 40 year-old adopted son was labeled " slow " and had numerous behavioral

> issues as a child. As an adult, he does well if supervised but poorly on his

> own and is too high functioning to receive assistance. A Brainmap in Nov. 09

> showed a TBI Probability Index 85% Severity 3.54 on the left side. So far,

> he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement has been minimal

> at best. A second Brainmap shows decrease in anxiety but it hasn't

> manifested itself in his overall behavior very much. It's same stuff,

> different day. His practitioner is recommending 30 more sessions " to

> accomplish what we set out " .

> I understand that not everyone benefits from neurofeedback. At what point

> can that be determined? I don't want to spend more money for something that

> isn't working.

>

> Judy

>

[Guest guest]

I'm going to have to agree with Mike on the fact that there can be underlying

medical issues. In fact, biomedical issues.

I am just a parent " consumer " ,too, and my son started off high beta and

hypercoherent, amongst other things. He's been suspected of Aspergers by

professionals and came up as high risk for it by a couple of profiles at school

.... never did pursue the diagnosis privately.

Does your son have any digestive issues? Constipation? Diarrhea? Both? What

about food preference issues? OCD? Poor memory? Lethargy? Meltdowns or low

frustration tolerance? etc. etc.

I am treating my son biomedically as we go through our NF sessions. So far, he's

doing very well ... he's graduated up more than a couple of levels just since

January. Seeing improvements almost every time on beta and coherence and the

original symptoms are nearly gone and we're almost ready to move on and pick new

areas to improve.

I'd suggest you join some of the that deal with the biochemical

approaches. The enzyme-autism group is a good place to start. If you don't feel

like you can navigate the biomedical waters, get a DAN! doc to assist. So many

things can throw this off .... besides the TBI, there's gene mutations that can

predispose a patient to methylation issues, heavy metal overload, PANDAS from

prior strep, low-lying viruses, parasites, food allergies, and so so so much

more. All of these can make a bright person appear to be mentally delayed or

" slow " . There are many " recovery " stories out there and some used a combo of NFB

and biomedical approaches.

btw, can I make a mild request that people please trim down their messages to

not include all of the prior (replies to replies to replies to the original msg)

messages in the thread? I receive daily digest, and it's getting way too

cumbersome to read if they aren't trimmed down. Thanks!

[Guest guest]

I'm going to have to agree with Mike on the fact that there can be underlying

medical issues. In fact, biomedical issues.

I am just a parent " consumer " ,too, and my son started off high beta and

hypercoherent, amongst other things. He's been suspected of Aspergers by

professionals and came up as high risk for it by a couple of profiles at school

.... never did pursue the diagnosis privately.

Does your son have any digestive issues? Constipation? Diarrhea? Both? What

about food preference issues? OCD? Poor memory? Lethargy? Meltdowns or low

frustration tolerance? etc. etc.

I am treating my son biomedically as we go through our NF sessions. So far, he's

doing very well ... he's graduated up more than a couple of levels just since

January. Seeing improvements almost every time on beta and coherence and the

original symptoms are nearly gone and we're almost ready to move on and pick new

areas to improve.

I'd suggest you join some of the that deal with the biochemical

approaches. The enzyme-autism group is a good place to start. If you don't feel

like you can navigate the biomedical waters, get a DAN! doc to assist. So many

things can throw this off .... besides the TBI, there's gene mutations that can

predispose a patient to methylation issues, heavy metal overload, PANDAS from

prior strep, low-lying viruses, parasites, food allergies, and so so so much

more. All of these can make a bright person appear to be mentally delayed or

" slow " . There are many " recovery " stories out there and some used a combo of NFB

and biomedical approaches.

btw, can I make a mild request that people please trim down their messages to

not include all of the prior (replies to replies to replies to the original msg)

messages in the thread? I receive daily digest, and it's getting way too

cumbersome to read if they aren't trimmed down. Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful answers and suggestions. You have all

been very helpful to me.

Yes, his background is not normal (released for adoption at 12 while siblings

were kept by the birth mother) and the entire situation is extremely complex.

The clinician does seem to be trying some different things and maybe that's why

he wants another thirty sessions. My son has coped with his limitations by

becoming expert at " telling folks what they want to hear " so I'm not convinced

the clinician has a real handle on what's going on beyond looking at the

brainmap. He did say at the beginning that " this is easy to fix " so my

expectations were probably not well managed from that point.

Because my son is actually holding his own right now – something he has done in

the past prior to NFB, but been unable to maintain – I've decided to continue

with the sessions. Give it more time, count my blessings and hope neurofeedback

tends to work better and better over time

Thanks again, Judy

> >

> > RE: " So far, he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement

> > has been minimal at best. " . . . When do you determine if someone will

> > benefit?

> >

> > =================================

> >

> > By the time someone is 40, there are a lot of serious stuck patterns.

Could

> > it take a while to make progress. Absolutely. In addition, males in

> > particular- can be very poor at noticing change even when some are

> > occurring. It's a challenge.

> >

> >

> >

> > But if you're 50 sessions in and truly seeing minimal change, I'd consider

> > several options.

> >

> > 1) Has the clinician you are working with gotten consultations from other

> > experts in the field about changing his approach. Most clinicians I know

> > would be scrambling long before this to get help/ideas from other

> > clinicians/experts. No one wants to have a client 50 sessions in - and

with

> > little progress. No one approach to training always works.

> >

> >

> >

> > 2) There are many different systems and models. Some work better than

> > others. One of the reasons that many experienced clinicians end up with

> > multiple types of systems and tools over time is that they've learned -

some

> > people do much better with one system (and their accompanying model) than

> > another. I've had clients that didn't make much progress on " regular " EEG

> > biofeedback training (for example with EEGer) and then did great when I

> > switched them to LENS. Or vice versa. Or someone who did great with LENS

> > and HEG or HEG and EEG - but not with either by themselves.

> >

> >

> >

> > There's no easy answer. There are clinicians who seem to be able to make

> > one system work for many kinds of clients.

> >

> >

> >

> > IN addition, even with one system there are many, many different type of

> > protocols. I (and others) have had protocols that worked spectacularly -

> > but you would have never done them if you relied on the brain map.

> >

> >

> >

> > 3) Metabolic problems. If someone has a significant problem with thyroid,

> > or with adrenals or hormones: If they have severe deficits in magnesium or

> > zinc or Vitamin D (as examples). If they have severe hidden food allergies

> > that is undiagnosed - these and more issues could in fact could prevent

> > progress with neurofeedback. Many clinicians have found when people are

> > also addressing these issues, that neurofeedback often works better.

> >

> >

> >

> > Cohen

> >

> > www.CenterforBrain.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > From: [mailto: ]

On

> > Behalf Of Judy

> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:45 PM

> >

> > Subject: Neurofeedback effectiveness

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am just a consumer, not a neurofeedback practitioner, so perhaps this is

> > not the correct place to ask this but I can not find another group that

> > might be more appropriate.

> > My 40 year-old adopted son was labeled " slow " and had numerous behavioral

> > issues as a child. As an adult, he does well if supervised but poorly on

his

> > own and is too high functioning to receive assistance. A Brainmap in Nov.

09

> > showed a TBI Probability Index 85% Severity 3.54 on the left side. So far,

> > he's completed fifty sessions of neurofeedback. Improvement has been

minimal

> > at best. A second Brainmap shows decrease in anxiety but it hasn't

> > manifested itself in his overall behavior very much. It's same stuff,

> > different day. His practitioner is recommending 30 more sessions " to

> > accomplish what we set out " .

> > I understand that not everyone benefits from neurofeedback. At what point

> > can that be determined? I don't want to spend more money for something

that

> > isn't working.

> >

> > Judy

> >

>