Neurofeedback and Meditation

[Guest guest]

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt

to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to

magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor

their breathing.[...]      We initially use proportional

feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for

training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha,

we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of

8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s

findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most

people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time

we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates

extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on

their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the

training. We also point out constantly during their training how their

alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. " I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt

to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to

magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor

their breathing.[...]      We initially use proportional

feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for

training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha,

we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of

8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s

findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most

people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time

we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates

extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on

their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the

training. We also point out constantly during their training how their

alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. " I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt

to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to

magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor

their breathing.[...]      We initially use proportional

feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for

training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha,

we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of

8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s

findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most

people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time

we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates

extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on

their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the

training. We also point out constantly during their training how their

alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. " I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Pete, Thank you for all this great info. I've found the Alpha Gamma syncrony design and will give it a go. I assume that we let the client stabilize using Auto threshold and then switch both to Manual a little bit higher each time? This is how I'm told all of the BE training should occur (in a general sense). Is that correct?

LizOn Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt

to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to

magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor

their breathing.[...]      We initially use proportional

feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for

training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha,

we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of

8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s

findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most

people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time

we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates

extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on

their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the

training. We also point out constantly during their training how their

alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. " I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Pete, Thank you for all this great info. I've found the Alpha Gamma syncrony design and will give it a go. I assume that we let the client stabilize using Auto threshold and then switch both to Manual a little bit higher each time? This is how I'm told all of the BE training should occur (in a general sense). Is that correct?

LizOn Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt

to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to

magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor

their breathing.[...]      We initially use proportional

feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for

training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha,

we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of

8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s

findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most

people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time

we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates

extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on

their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the

training. We also point out constantly during their training how their

alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. " I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Alpha gamma synchrony has manual thresholds.  Don't mess with them.  If in doubt, go to the Designs menu and check Notes.  Many of the designs have notes that will guide you.I'd start at P3/A1/g/P4/A2 (L), which means " Linked " ears--using the jumper between the two references.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete, Thank you for all this great info. I've found the Alpha Gamma syncrony design and will give it a go. I assume that we let the client stabilize using Auto threshold and then switch both to Manual a little bit higher each time? This is how I'm told all of the BE training should occur (in a general sense). Is that correct?

[Guest guest]

Alpha gamma synchrony has manual thresholds.  Don't mess with them.  If in doubt, go to the Designs menu and check Notes.  Many of the designs have notes that will guide you.I'd start at P3/A1/g/P4/A2 (L), which means " Linked " ears--using the jumper between the two references.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete, Thank you for all this great info. I've found the Alpha Gamma syncrony design and will give it a go. I assume that we let the client stabilize using Auto threshold and then switch both to Manual a little bit higher each time? This is how I'm told all of the BE training should occur (in a general sense). Is that correct?

[Guest guest]

Fantastic, Pete, I thank you so much, as per usual!LizOn Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Alpha gamma synchrony has manual thresholds.  Don't mess with them.  If in doubt, go to the Designs menu and check Notes.  Many of the designs have notes that will guide you.I'd start at P3/A1/g/P4/A2 (L), which means " Linked " ears--using the jumper between the two references.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete, Thank you for all this great info. I've found the Alpha Gamma syncrony design and will give it a go. I assume that we let the client stabilize using Auto threshold and then switch both to Manual a little bit higher each time? This is how I'm told all of the BE training should occur (in a general sense). Is that correct?

[Guest guest]

Pete,I feel silly asking this but, in response to this: " I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out

high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or

it starts out low and slow rises. "   What number would be considered a high amplitude? (I'm assuming you're talking about high amplitude, not whether alpha is taking the form of a relatively low or high frequency) -- lord, after two workshops, I should know this.

LizOn Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Alpha gamma synchrony has manual thresholds.  Don't mess with them.  If in doubt, go to the Designs menu and check Notes.  Many of the designs have notes that will guide you.I'd start at P3/A1/g/P4/A2 (L), which means " Linked " ears--using the jumper between the two references.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete, Thank you for all this great info. I've found the Alpha Gamma syncrony design and will give it a go. I assume that we let the client stabilize using Auto threshold and then switch both to Manual a little bit higher each time? This is how I'm told all of the BE training should occur (in a general sense). Is that correct?

[Guest guest]

Liz,I look at alpha in a power spectrum or map RELATIVE to theta or fast activity.  If alpha with eyes closed is dominant, showing around 1.5 times more amplitude than theta in the back of the head, and then that dominance starts to fade, the alpha starts to drop away fairly quickly, then I train for short periods.  Trying to extend the brain's ability to sustain that state that occurs fairly immediately after closing the eyes.  If alpha starts out equal to or below other frequencies when the eyes close and then begins to rise over time, I'd train longer.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

" I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out

high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or

it starts out low and slow rises. "   What number would be considered a high amplitude? (I'm assuming you're talking about high amplitude, not whether alpha is taking the form of a relatively low or high frequency) -- lord, after two workshops, I should know this.

[Guest guest]

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in " browse " and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to " play " it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.

Liz MargoshesOn Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt

to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to

magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor

their breathing.[...]      We initially use proportional

feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for

training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha,

we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of

8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s

findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most

people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time

we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates

extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much

discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on

their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the

training. We also point out constantly during their training how their

alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. " I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Liz,

Just open the folder and double-click on the .bxs file,

or if BioExplorer is already open, choose Session> Playback> and browse to the .bxs file you want.

Rah

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:27:28 -0500Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in "browse" and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to "play" it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.Liz Margoshes

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail> wrote:

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it. Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha. Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing. Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).They just did alpha theta. And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed. My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta. I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded. They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes. If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into "much discussion on the nature of discursive thought"; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.) I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness. I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises. If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop. If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory: continuous and contingent. Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design. There is music. It always plays. The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing. For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to "think" about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning). Eventually the mind gives up trying to "figure out" the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain. In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off. When you are doing everything you are "supposed" to be doing, you hear a beep. When you're not, you don't. The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.BTW, for a "meditative" state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta. AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still "observer" state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshesgmail> wrote:

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:"We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor their breathing.[...] We initially use proportional feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha, we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of 8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the training. We also point out constantly during their training how their alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought."I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what "sufficient amplitude" is for an individual?What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is "crossing over" alpha magnitude?And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.Thank you.

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Trying to attach a file now --On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Rah Wheelihan <wheelihan82@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

 

Just open the folder and double-click on the .bxs file,

or if BioExplorer is already open, choose Session> Playback> and browse to the .bxs file you want.

 

Rah 

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:27:28 -0500

Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation 

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in " browse " and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to " play " it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.

Liz Margoshes

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor their breathing.[...]

     We initially use proportional feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha, we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of 8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the training. We also point out constantly during their training how their alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. "

I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

1 of 1 File(s)

JIM January 10 2010 04.05.41 PM.bxs

[Guest guest]

here's one with less 60-cycle, I hope - thankyou - LizOn Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Rah Wheelihan <wheelihan82@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

 

Just open the folder and double-click on the .bxs file,

or if BioExplorer is already open, choose Session> Playback> and browse to the .bxs file you want.

 

Rah 

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:27:28 -0500

Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation 

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in " browse " and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to " play " it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.

Liz Margoshes

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor their breathing.[...]

     We initially use proportional feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha, we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of 8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the training. We also point out constantly during their training how their alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. "

I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

1 of 1 File(s)

JIM January 10 2010 04.13.13 PM.bxs

[Guest guest]

Liz,

Your attachments successfully came through, playable.

To play back the session, I clicked on the attachment's name and chose "Save" or "Open" - both worked. "Yes" to "Open Session's Design," then "Play."

Rah

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:16:11 -0500Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below] here's one with less 60-cycle, I hope - thankyou - Liz Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

yay, thanks. Now -- I wonder if I captured anything useful! (waiting for Pete's " diagnosis " )LizOn Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Rah Wheelihan <wheelihan82@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

 

Your attachments successfully came through, playable. 

 

To play back the session, I clicked on the attachment's name and chose  " Save " or  " Open " - both worked.  " Yes " to " Open Session's Design, " then " Play. "

 

Rah 

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:16:11 -0500

Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation [1 Attachment] 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below] here's one with less 60-cycle, I hope - thankyou - Liz Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Liz,You didn't send me anything that I can find, though you obviously send the session file to Rah.My question, as you must by now be able to guess, is how did your husband like the training?  How did he respond to it?  Did he notice any difference after the session?  Did you?

If you got a good hookup, I can look at the playback and say, gee, looks like he was in the training range is X or Y quite a bit, but I've never met your husband and certainly have no idea how he did with the training.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in " browse " and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to " play " it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Pete,I used a jumper. I am very concerned about hookups, that's really why I sent the file. I want to be doing what the actual protocol is saying to do, not just getting noise as I've done a lot in the past. I have to look at the original assessment and look at coherences.

Thanks.LizOn Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Did you use a jumper?Lots more 60 Hz signal in the 2nd channel than the first suggests a poor hookup there.Signal in channel 2 is WAY larger than in channel 1 until around 40 seconds, then settles down with occasional bursts.

Coherence seems very low.  If you have done an assessment, does it show low slow-wave coherences in general?  if so, you might want to start at P3/A1/g/P4/A2 (L) and do multiband coherence up for a few sessions (EC or EO).

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

Trying to attach a file now --On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Rah Wheelihan <wheelihan82@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

 

Just open the folder and double-click on the .bxs file,

or if BioExplorer is already open, choose Session> Playback> and browse to the .bxs file you want.

 

Rah 

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:27:28 -0500

Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation 

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in " browse " and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to " play " it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.

Liz Margoshes

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor their breathing.[...]

     We initially use proportional feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha, we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of 8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the training. We also point out constantly during their training how their alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. "

I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Look at 60 Hz.  If it's a lot higher on one side (in the spectrum analyzer) than on the other, re-prep and re-place the electrode.  If you are using a jumper between the references, then a bad hookup on either one should have an equivalent effect on either channel.  Same with a shared ground.

Also keep an eye on the power spectrum to see if the two channels are roughly equivalent/symmetrical in their amplitudes.  Replay the file you sent me and watch the first 30 seconds for an example, then watch what happens as the session continues.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete,I used a jumper. I am very concerned about hookups, that's really why I sent the file. I want to be doing what the actual protocol is saying to do, not just getting noise as I've done a lot in the past. I have to look at the original assessment and look at coherences.

Thanks.LizOn Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Did you use a jumper?Lots more 60 Hz signal in the 2nd channel than the first suggests a poor hookup there.Signal in channel 2 is WAY larger than in channel 1 until around 40 seconds, then settles down with occasional bursts.

Coherence seems very low.  If you have done an assessment, does it show low slow-wave coherences in general?  if so, you might want to start at P3/A1/g/P4/A2 (L) and do multiband coherence up for a few sessions (EC or EO).

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

Trying to attach a file now --On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Rah Wheelihan <wheelihan82@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

 

Just open the folder and double-click on the .bxs file,

or if BioExplorer is already open, choose Session> Playback> and browse to the .bxs file you want.

 

Rah 

From: drmargoshes@...Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:27:28 -0500

Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and Meditation 

hi PeteI tried the alpha gamma protocol with my husband and would love to attach the session. However when I find it in " browse " and attach it (I mailed it to myself just to see if it would work) it brings up the bioexplorer design but I don't know how to " play " it. Pressing play does nothing. I obviously need some help with this. Thank you.

Liz Margoshes

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Your life will become much simpler if you read Eugene Peniston's work with alcoholics using Alpha Theta or Gruzelier's more recent publications on it.  Neither of these guys bothered with all the fooling around with alpha.  Peniston did a few sessions of temperature feedback to teach chronic alcoholics a little bit about relaxing.  Gruzelier, to the best of my recollection, didn't even bother with that (though he wasn't working with such an extreme population).

They just did alpha theta.  And the results over time were quite spectacular.Until I heard Gruzelier present at iSNR a number of years ago, I taught that you should not do A/T with a person who could not raise alpha above theta amplitude with eyes closed.  My belief was that, with such a client, you were simply doing Theta/Theta.  I asked Gruzelier about this after his presentation, and he told me they had considered this but had decided to just go ahead and see how people responded.  They didn't find any noticeable difference in outcomes.  If I see a client with excessive FAST activity and little ability to produce alpha with eyes closed, then I might well begin with some alpha or alpha synchrony training (and, if you really want to, get into " much discussion on the nature of discursive thought " ; a high-frequency client will love this, since such discussions would be exactly what he/she is doing inside the head ANYWAY.)  I'd focus on just asking them to let their mind be still, to pay attention to the feedback and, when they notice they are thinking, let go and return to stillness.  I like to watch the spectrum analyzer to see whether alpha starts out high and begins fairly quickly to deteriorate after eyes or closed, or it starts out low and slow rises.  If the former, then I'd train for short segments, taking breaks when the alpha starts to drop.  If the latter, I'd train for the 7-10 minutes writes of--but without the discussion.

There are two primary kinds of feedback in learning theory:  continuous and contingent.  Continuous (proportional) feedback is like the sounds in the 2C WS Alpha Temporal design.  There is music.  It always plays.  The pitch and volume change, and those changes provide information to the brain about what it is doing.  For thinkers, worriers, people who want to measure and judge themselves, continuous is most valuable, because there's nothing to " think " about (though that doesn't stop them, at least in the beginning).  Eventually the mind gives up trying to " figure out " the feedback and allows it to pass through to the brain.  In the Alpha Theta protocol (TLC), the sound of surf and seashore is continuous feedback for alpha levels. 

Contingent (dichotomous) feedback is simple on/off.  When you are doing everything you are " supposed " to be doing, you hear a beep.  When you're not, you don't.  The theta crossover tones in the alpha theta design (music plays when the client crosses over and does not when alpha is higher than theta) are contingent feedback.

BTW, for a " meditative " state, I would recommend something like Alpha Gamma Synchrony rather than Alpha Theta.  AT leads one to a hypnogogic state as opposed to the still " observer " state (don't think, don't try, just be present) that much of meditation is aimed toward.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how to do alpha/theta training with BioExplorer.I am quoting here from an article by Souter, and would like to try to do this with my pendant and BioExplorer:

" We begin training individuals with a 9-11hz band of alpha and attempt to get the clients to exceed their baseline readings with respect to magnitude. We train them to breath from their diaphragms and monitor their breathing.[...]

     We initially use proportional feedback as Kamiya’s research (1969) indicates it is most effective for training alpha. Once they have achieved sufficient amplitude of alpha, we may switch over to dichotomous feedback and a broader band of 8-12hz. We train in ten minute intervals initially, based on Kamiya’s findings (1969) and the general learning literature which suggests most people have difficulty sustaining focus after seven minutes. Over time we extend that period to twenty minutes as the client demonstrates extended capacity to focus. During this period there is usually much discussion on the nature of discursive thought and the many topics on their mind that lead them into it and away from focusing on the training. We also point out constantly during their training how their alpha amplitude falls when they engage in discursive thought. "

I have found a design that seems to train alpha/theta (Pete's design). But do I start with a simple alpha training protocol instead? How do I know what " sufficient amplitude " is for an individual?

What is proportional feedback? what's the proportion he's referring to? What is dichotomous feedback? How are these effected in BE training designs?How do I see if theta magnitude is " crossing over " alpha magnitude?

And is this the best way to do neurofeedback-assisted meditation, or am I getting in over my head (in several senses)?Any help MUCH appreciated. My husband wants to try this, and I would like to see if I can learn how to train in this way too.

Thank you.

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