Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

January 9, 2010

Unless there has been some recent work of which I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and " bipolar " disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to define exactly what bipolar disorder is and who has it.

Bipolar has gone from being quite a rare diagnosis in the early 90's, when I first started training, to being quite trendy a few years ago. I saw some data recently that in the decade from 1993 to 2003 the number of kids diagnosed as bipolar went from 20,000 to over 800,000--a 40 times increase! A lot of people--especially kids--who were emotionally labile and angry (in the 90's they were part of the explosion in ADHD--another diagnosis that a decade earlier began suddenly to afflict many times more children)--now get dumped into the bipolar category. This is rather unfortunate since psychiatric diagnoses have a nasty habit of sticking around throughout a person's life on academic and medical records. ADHD is bad enough, but bipolar disorder is a psychosis of sorts. Of course that means that a child can be given the latest " cocktail " of stimulant/anti-depressant/anti-psychotic powerful psycho-active drugs, but it also means that they'll carry that label into adulthood. Even professionals who believe the diagnostic explosion represents a " maturing " in the field of psychiatry (?!) frankly admit that no-one has any idea how many, if any, of these children will actually " have " the disorder when they become adults--kind of a strange thing to admit regarding a disorder that until 10-15 years ago was ONLY considered to be diagnosed in adults.

I asked Jay Gunkelman--a guy whose ability to read a QEEG and tell you about a person he's never met borders on witchcraft--a few years ago about EEG and bipolar. At that time, he didn't see it as related to brain function so much as to excessive autonomic cycling: when the ANS tilted into sympathetic mode, there was a manic period; when there was adrenal exhaustion, you saw the depressive phase.

Here as in most other areas, I strongly believe that if you are capable of working at the level of the brain's own activation patterns, you can safely dispense with the labels. I don't care if you are talking about " anxiety " , " depression " , " rage " or other diagnostic labels. The disorder titles are essentially descriptions of symptoms--NOT an indication of what underlies the symptoms. There are probably 6-10 patterns that have been shown to occur in people who are anxious, probably about the same number in people who are depressed, etc. So the diagnosis is useless in terms of telling us how or where to train. If you want to change a person's ability to perform/behave/feel/learn in some stable way, then define the specific behavioral issues that client wants to change and look at the EEG for patterns (using a TLC or a QEEG or whatever brain-based assessment you choose) that have been linked in research to those behaviors/moods, etc. Train to change those.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM, jon glenn <j590blu@...> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the diagnosis.

So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.

This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 9, 2010

Unless there has been some recent work of which I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and " bipolar " disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to define exactly what bipolar disorder is and who has it.

Bipolar has gone from being quite a rare diagnosis in the early 90's, when I first started training, to being quite trendy a few years ago. I saw some data recently that in the decade from 1993 to 2003 the number of kids diagnosed as bipolar went from 20,000 to over 800,000--a 40 times increase! A lot of people--especially kids--who were emotionally labile and angry (in the 90's they were part of the explosion in ADHD--another diagnosis that a decade earlier began suddenly to afflict many times more children)--now get dumped into the bipolar category. This is rather unfortunate since psychiatric diagnoses have a nasty habit of sticking around throughout a person's life on academic and medical records. ADHD is bad enough, but bipolar disorder is a psychosis of sorts. Of course that means that a child can be given the latest " cocktail " of stimulant/anti-depressant/anti-psychotic powerful psycho-active drugs, but it also means that they'll carry that label into adulthood. Even professionals who believe the diagnostic explosion represents a " maturing " in the field of psychiatry (?!) frankly admit that no-one has any idea how many, if any, of these children will actually " have " the disorder when they become adults--kind of a strange thing to admit regarding a disorder that until 10-15 years ago was ONLY considered to be diagnosed in adults.

I asked Jay Gunkelman--a guy whose ability to read a QEEG and tell you about a person he's never met borders on witchcraft--a few years ago about EEG and bipolar. At that time, he didn't see it as related to brain function so much as to excessive autonomic cycling: when the ANS tilted into sympathetic mode, there was a manic period; when there was adrenal exhaustion, you saw the depressive phase.

Here as in most other areas, I strongly believe that if you are capable of working at the level of the brain's own activation patterns, you can safely dispense with the labels. I don't care if you are talking about " anxiety " , " depression " , " rage " or other diagnostic labels. The disorder titles are essentially descriptions of symptoms--NOT an indication of what underlies the symptoms. There are probably 6-10 patterns that have been shown to occur in people who are anxious, probably about the same number in people who are depressed, etc. So the diagnosis is useless in terms of telling us how or where to train. If you want to change a person's ability to perform/behave/feel/learn in some stable way, then define the specific behavioral issues that client wants to change and look at the EEG for patterns (using a TLC or a QEEG or whatever brain-based assessment you choose) that have been linked in research to those behaviors/moods, etc. Train to change those.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM, jon glenn <j590blu@...> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the diagnosis.

So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.

This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 9, 2010

Samar, I think you'll find that most people on this list, regardless of academic or professional background, do NOT create training plans to conform to a mental health diagnosis of any kind, simply because the DSM does not conform to the brain. What's happening within any individual can vary, even if they happen to share the same diagnostic labels. I strongly encourage you to train based on an assessment of what's going on in this individual's brain and not on the label bipolar--or any other label, for that matter.

As for your concerns regarding medications--of course they often change brain patterns and in some cases make training difficult (for example, trying to train up alpha when someone is on multiple narcotic pain meds is a bear), but you are going to have to train based on the situation right now rather than what you hope the outcome will be.

If you are concerned about how to proceed once you have collected the data you need, I encourage you to consider consulting with Pete (his ABCD plan is an excellent service) or someone else who can help you monitor closely what is happening before, during, and after sessions.

Kind regards,

Tamera

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4757 (20100109) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

January 9, 2010

Samar, I think you'll find that most people on this list, regardless of academic or professional background, do NOT create training plans to conform to a mental health diagnosis of any kind, simply because the DSM does not conform to the brain. What's happening within any individual can vary, even if they happen to share the same diagnostic labels. I strongly encourage you to train based on an assessment of what's going on in this individual's brain and not on the label bipolar--or any other label, for that matter.

As for your concerns regarding medications--of course they often change brain patterns and in some cases make training difficult (for example, trying to train up alpha when someone is on multiple narcotic pain meds is a bear), but you are going to have to train based on the situation right now rather than what you hope the outcome will be.

If you are concerned about how to proceed once you have collected the data you need, I encourage you to consider consulting with Pete (his ABCD plan is an excellent service) or someone else who can help you monitor closely what is happening before, during, and after sessions.

Kind regards,

Tamera

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4757 (20100109) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

January 9, 2010

Thanks for the response Tamera. That's what I concluded myself. Also some protocols are commonly used for certain things. In other words T3/T4 calms, P3/P4 alpha up helps sleeping in certain non sleeping situations etc.... Depending on whether the patient falls asleep and then wakes up, or can't fall asleep in the first place.

Cetrain situations lead to certain protocols, or initial protocols to test. I was just wondering if there were any practioners that had dealt with bipolar disorder, and discovered certain things that I might not know. Such as: because of the meds, these protocols produce a much more volitale reaction etc... like the one you just gave me.

It's the experience that I am looking for. The method, I am familiar with.

Thanks again

Samar

From: TD Siminow <siminowdt@...>Subject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder Date: Saturday, January 9, 2010, 2:53 PM

Samar, I think you'll find that most people on this list, regardless of academic or professional background, do NOT create training plans to conform to a mental health diagnosis of any kind, simply because the DSM does not conform to the brain. What's happening within any individual can vary, even if they happen to share the same diagnostic labels. I strongly encourage you to train based on an assessment of what's going on in this individual's brain and not on the label bipolar--or any other label, for that matter.

As for your concerns regarding medications- -of course they often change brain patterns and in some cases make training difficult (for example, trying to train up alpha when someone is on multiple narcotic pain meds is a bear), but you are going to have to train based on the situation right now rather than what you hope the outcome will be.

If you are concerned about how to proceed once you have collected the data you need, I encourage you to consider consulting with Pete (his ABCD plan is an excellent service) or someone else who can help you monitor closely what is happening before, during, and after sessions.

Kind regards,

Tamera

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4757 (20100109) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset. com

January 9, 2010

Thanks for the response Tamera. That's what I concluded myself. Also some protocols are commonly used for certain things. In other words T3/T4 calms, P3/P4 alpha up helps sleeping in certain non sleeping situations etc.... Depending on whether the patient falls asleep and then wakes up, or can't fall asleep in the first place.

Cetrain situations lead to certain protocols, or initial protocols to test. I was just wondering if there were any practioners that had dealt with bipolar disorder, and discovered certain things that I might not know. Such as: because of the meds, these protocols produce a much more volitale reaction etc... like the one you just gave me.

It's the experience that I am looking for. The method, I am familiar with.

Thanks again

Samar

From: TD Siminow <siminowdt@...>Subject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder Date: Saturday, January 9, 2010, 2:53 PM

Samar, I think you'll find that most people on this list, regardless of academic or professional background, do NOT create training plans to conform to a mental health diagnosis of any kind, simply because the DSM does not conform to the brain. What's happening within any individual can vary, even if they happen to share the same diagnostic labels. I strongly encourage you to train based on an assessment of what's going on in this individual's brain and not on the label bipolar--or any other label, for that matter.

As for your concerns regarding medications- -of course they often change brain patterns and in some cases make training difficult (for example, trying to train up alpha when someone is on multiple narcotic pain meds is a bear), but you are going to have to train based on the situation right now rather than what you hope the outcome will be.

If you are concerned about how to proceed once you have collected the data you need, I encourage you to consider consulting with Pete (his ABCD plan is an excellent service) or someone else who can help you monitor closely what is happening before, during, and after sessions.

Kind regards,

Tamera

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4757 (20100109) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset. com

January 9, 2010

After more than 8,000 sessions for the past 7 years, I noticed some important "patterns" for certain cases.The most obvious one is paranoiac-schizophrenia. Left frontal-temporal presents high amplitude in delta and theta, and right temporal-parietal beta and high beta are pretty high in amplitude. I'm not sure if is the case for everyone with this mental disorder, but it was a "casualty" for all the assessments I made for this type of diagnosis when a worked with a local psychiatrist. I personally think that the more severe the condition is, the more easy to find severe "abnormalities" in the TLC brain map and/or QEEG . The other one was for depressed people. Clearly left to right frontal unbalanced (Reversion) at alpha and beta. Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a

5 Hz reward frequency difference between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called the "Cymbalta" protocol :)My grain of salt in this vast ocean JRFrom: Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Sat, January 9, 2010 12:42:16 PMSubject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

Unless there has been some recent work of which I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and "bipolar" disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to define exactly what bipolar disorder is and who has it.

Bipolar has gone from being quite a rare diagnosis in the early 90's, when I first started training, to being quite trendy a few years ago. I saw some data recently that in the decade from 1993 to 2003 the number of kids diagnosed as bipolar went from 20,000 to over 800,000--a 40 times increase! A lot of people--especially kids--who were emotionally labile and angry (in the 90's they were part of the explosion in ADHD--another diagnosis that a decade earlier began suddenly to afflict many times more children)--now get dumped into the bipolar category. This is rather unfortunate since psychiatric diagnoses have a nasty habit of sticking around throughout a person's life on academic and medical records. ADHD is bad enough, but bipolar disorder is a psychosis of sorts. Of course that means that a child can be given the latest "cocktail" of stimulant/anti- depressant/ anti-psychotic powerful psycho-active drugs, but it

also means that they'll carry that label into adulthood. Even professionals who believe the diagnostic explosion represents a "maturing" in the field of psychiatry (?!) frankly admit that no-one has any idea how many, if any, of these children will actually "have" the disorder when they become adults--kind of a strange thing to admit regarding a disorder that until 10-15 years ago was ONLY considered to be diagnosed in adults.

I asked Jay Gunkelman--a guy whose ability to read a QEEG and tell you about a person he's never met borders on witchcraft-- a few years ago about EEG and bipolar. At that time, he didn't see it as related to brain function so much as to excessive autonomic cycling: when the ANS tilted into sympathetic mode, there was a manic period; when there was adrenal exhaustion, you saw the depressive phase.

Here as in most other areas, I strongly believe that if you are capable of working at the level of the brain's own activation patterns, you can safely dispense with the labels. I don't care if you are talking about "anxiety", "depression", "rage" or other diagnostic labels. The disorder titles are essentially descriptions of symptoms--NOT an indication of what underlies the symptoms. There are probably 6-10 patterns that have been shown to occur in people who are anxious, probably about the same number in people who are depressed, etc. So the diagnosis is useless in terms of telling us how or where to train. If you want to change a person's ability to perform/behave/ feel/learn in some stable way, then define the specific behavioral issues that client wants to change and look at the EEG for patterns (using a TLC or a QEEG or whatever brain-based assessment you choose) that have been linked in research to those

behaviors/moods, etc. Train to change those.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM, jon glenn <j590blu (DOT) com> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the diagnosis.

So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.

This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 10, 2010

Hi JR,

Would you be willing to share the design you use for the F3/F4 training? I am curious how it is set up.

Thanks,

Rolland

Rolland Fellows, PhD4131 Spicewood SpringsSuite G-6Austin, TX 78759512.346.1796 Work512.467.9911 Home

In a message dated 1/9/2010 4:16:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, jrdiaz@... writes:

After more than 8,000 sessions for the past 7 years, I noticed some important "patterns" for certain cases.The most obvious one is paranoiac-schizophrenia. Left frontal-temporal presents high amplitude in delta and theta, and right temporal-parietal beta and high beta are pretty high in amplitude. I'm not sure if is the case for everyone with this mental disorder, but it was a "casualty" for all the assessments I made for this type of diagnosis when a worked with a local psychiatrist. I personally think that the more severe the condition is, the more easy to find severe "abnormalities" in the TLC brain map and/or QEEG . The other one was for depressed people. Clearly left to right frontal unbalanced (Reversion) at alpha and beta. Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a 5 Hz reward frequency difference between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called the "Cymbalta" protocol :)My grain of salt in this vast ocean

JR

From: Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail> Sent: Sat, January 9, 2010 12:42:16 PMSubject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

Unless there has been some recent work of which I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and "bipolar" disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to define exactly what bipolar disorder is and who has it. Bipolar has gone from being quite a rare diagnosis in the early 90's, when I first started training, to being quite trendy a few years ago. I saw some data recently that in the decade from 1993 to 2003 the number of kids diagnosed as bipolar went from 20,000 to over 800,000--a 40 times increase! A lot of people--especially kids--who were emotionally labile and angry (in the 90's they were part of the explosion in ADHD--another diagnosis that a decade earlier began suddenly to afflict many times more children)--now get dumped into the bipolar category. This is rather unfortunate since psychiatric diagnoses have a nasty habit of sticking around throughout a person's life on academic and medical records. ADHD is bad enough, but bipolar disorder is a psychosis of sorts. Of course that means that a child can be given the latest "cocktail" of stimulant/anti- depressant/ anti-psychotic powerful psycho-active drugs, but it also means that they'll carry that label into adulthood. Even professionals who believe the diagnostic explosion represents a "maturing" in the field of psychiatry (?!) frankly admit that no-one has any idea how many, if any, of these children will actually "have" the disorder when they become adults--kind of a strange thing to admit regarding a disorder that until 10-15 years ago was ONLY considered to be diagnosed in adults.I asked Jay Gunkelman--a guy whose ability to read a QEEG and tell you about a person he's never met borders on witchcraft-- a few years ago about EEG and bipolar. At that time, he didn't see it as related to brain function so much as to excessive autonomic cycling: when the ANS tilted into sympathetic mode, there was a manic period; when there was adrenal exhaustion, you saw the depressive phase.Here as in most other areas, I strongly believe that if you are capable of working at the level of the brain's own activation patterns, you can safely dispense with the labels. I don't care if you are talking about "anxiety", "depression", "rage" or other diagnostic labels. The disorder titles are essentially descriptions of symptoms--NOT an indication of what underlies the symptoms. There are probably 6-10 patterns that have been shown to occur in people who are anxious, probably about the same number in people who are depressed, etc. So the diagnosis is useless in terms of telling us how or where to train. If you want to change a person's ability to perform/behave/ feel/learn in some stable way, then define the specific behavioral issues that client wants to change and look at the EEG for patterns (using a TLC or a QEEG or whatever brain-based assessment you choose) that have been linked in research to those behaviors/moods, etc. Train to change those.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM, jon glenn <j590blu (DOT) com> wrote:

Hello Everyone,I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the diagnosis.So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 10, 2010

Thank you that was very helpful. I will more closely look at those two areas with this patient. For the "paranoiac-schizophr enia" where the left frontal-temporal presents high amplitude in delta and theta, and right temporal-parietal beta and high beta are pretty high in amplitude, What protocols did you use, and see were successful?

Hello Everyone,I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the diagnosis.So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 10, 2010

" Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a 5 Hz reward frequency difference

between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called

the " Cymbalta " protocol "

Could you clarify a bit on this? Is this two channel training or one chan

sequential. What are the reward settings, and, are there any inhibits? Thanks.

>

> Hello Everyone,

>

> I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone

> diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the

> feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not

> the diagnosis.

>

> So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the

> patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what

fits.

>

> This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just

> bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

>

January 10, 2010

Pete; Thanks for this reality-based encapsulation of the ongoing Bipolar circus.

In my practice I hardly ever see oppositional teens anymore that haven't

recieved this dx, esp those who's behaviors have escalated to a point that's

placed them in contact with psychiatrists. Last week I did an intake on a

12-year-old whose list of DX's included " rule out Bipolar Disorder " and he was

taking Seroquel, Adderall, Clonidine, Trazodone, Risperdal and Zoloft. Based on

the MSE the only diagnoses that seemed justified were AD/HD and ODD.

Another point one could make is that all the preliminery 'work' on diagnosing

kids with Bipolar came out of one lab connected to Harvard which subsequently

was revealed to have received big pharma funding. Talk about a massive pay off

on a small investment. I know this sounds paranoid, but it's true.

SDC

>

> >

> > Hello Everyone,

> >

> > I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone

> > diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the

> > feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not

> > the diagnosis.

> >

> > So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the

> > patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what

> > fits.

> >

> > This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just

> > bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

> >

>

January 10, 2010

Hi Rolland,I'll be more than willing to share :)All the protocols that I used are always based on an individual TLC assessment results that I make. If the person to be trained needs frontal training (F3/A1 and F4/A2 is a possibility), the trainer need to make a decision on what design will work better for each case. There are plenty of choices on TLC designs package.One of the most common design that I use is 1C twoinhibitsonereward, where I defined the first inhibit to the clients needs (based on the assessment) 2-5 or 2-10Hz; the reward will be depending on the arousal level (over or under arousal) based on the Arousal scale form results, and the second inhibit, normally will be set at 23-38Hz (HB). Only in certain cases I would use 15-38Hz as second inhibit for F4/A2. (For this

type of inhibit, you may need to adapt the filters settings because the range may be wide)I believe the training time per site is crucial to obtain better results. In general, for overarousal people I use 10 min @ F3/A1, then stop, changed sites, and train F4/A2 for 12 to 14 minutes more.But for underarousal people I do the opposite in time.. Hope this helps!JRFrom: "arfellows@..." <arfellows@...> Sent: Sun,

January 10, 2010 9:48:55 AMSubject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

Hi JR,

Would you be willing to share the design you use for the F3/F4 training? I am curious how it is set up.

Thanks,

Rolland

Rolland Fellows, PhD4131 Spicewood SpringsSuite G-6Austin, TX 78759512.346.1796 Work512.467.9911 Home

In a message dated 1/9/2010 4:16:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, jrdiaz (DOT) com writes:

After more than 8,000 sessions for the past 7 years, I noticed some important "patterns" for certain cases.The most obvious one is paranoiac-schizophr enia. Left frontal-temporal presents high amplitude in delta and theta, and right temporal-parietal beta and high beta are pretty high in amplitude. I'm not sure if is the case for everyone with this mental disorder, but it was a "casualty" for all the assessments I made for this type of diagnosis when a worked with a local psychiatrist. I personally think that the more severe the condition is, the more easy to find severe "abnormalities" in the TLC brain map and/or QEEG . The other one was for depressed people. Clearly left to right frontal unbalanced (Reversion) at alpha and beta. Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a 5 Hz reward frequency difference between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called the "Cymbalta" protocol :)My grain of salt in this vast ocean

JR

From: Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com>Sent: Sat, January 9, 2010 12:42:16 PMSubject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

Unless there has been some recent work of which I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and "bipolar" disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to define exactly what bipolar disorder is and who has it. Bipolar has gone from being quite a rare diagnosis in the early 90's, when I first started training, to being quite trendy a few years ago. I saw some data recently that in the decade from 1993 to 2003 the number of kids diagnosed as bipolar went from 20,000 to over 800,000--a 40 times increase! A lot of people--especially kids--who were emotionally labile and angry (in the 90's they were part of the explosion in ADHD--another diagnosis that a decade earlier began suddenly to afflict many times more children)--now get dumped into the bipolar category. This is rather unfortunate since psychiatric diagnoses have a nasty habit of sticking around throughout a person's life on academic and medical records. ADHD is bad enough, but bipolar disorder is a psychosis of sorts. Of course that means that a child can be given the latest "cocktail" of stimulant/anti- depressant/ anti-psychotic powerful psycho-active drugs, but it also means that they'll carry that label into adulthood. Even professionals who believe the diagnostic explosion represents a "maturing" in the field of psychiatry (?!) frankly admit that no-one has any idea how many, if any, of these children will actually "have" the disorder when they become adults--kind of a strange thing to admit regarding a disorder that until 10-15 years ago was ONLY considered to be diagnosed in adults.I asked Jay Gunkelman--a guy whose ability to read a QEEG and tell you about a person he's never met borders on witchcraft-- a few years ago about EEG and bipolar. At that time, he didn't see it as related to brain function so much as to excessive autonomic cycling: when the ANS tilted into sympathetic mode, there was a manic period; when there was adrenal exhaustion, you saw the depressive phase.Here as in most other areas, I strongly believe that if you are capable of working at the level of the brain's own activation patterns, you can safely dispense with the labels. I don't care if you are talking about "anxiety", "depression" , "rage" or other diagnostic labels. The disorder titles are essentially descriptions of symptoms--NOT an indication of what underlies the symptoms. There are probably 6-10 patterns that have been shown to occur in people who are anxious, probably about the same number in people who are depressed, etc. So the diagnosis is useless in terms of telling us how or where to train. If you want to change a person's ability to perform/behave/ feel/learn in some stable way, then define the specific behavioral issues that client wants to change and look at the EEG for patterns (using a TLC or a QEEG or whatever brain-based assessment you choose) that have been linked in research to those behaviors/moods, etc. Train to change those.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain-trainer.com/USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc..

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM, jon glenn <j590blu (DOT) com> wrote:

Hello Everyone,I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the diagnosis.So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 10, 2010

Hi ,As I already explained to Rolland in my first respond to this topic, I referred to one channel training. If I decided to train F3 @ 15-18 Hz as the reward frequency, then I choose 10-13Hz as the reward frequency for F4. But this difference between hemisphere apply only for certain cases such a severe depression.e.g. in a single session: (using the design that I mentioned)F3/A1 inhibit 1: 2-10Hz reward: 15-18Hz inhibit2: 23-38Hz x 12 minutes, stop and change toF4/A2 inhibit 1: 2-5Hz reward: 10-13Hz inhibit2: 15-38Hz x 10 minutesI hope this clarify my prior commentJRFrom: " Dal Cerro, PHD" <gauge2_99@...> Sent: Sun, January 10, 2010 11:41:11 AMSubject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

"Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a 5 Hz reward frequency difference between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called the "Cymbalta" protocol :)"

Could you clarify a bit on this? Is this two channel training or one chan sequential. What are the reward settings, and, are there any inhibits? Thanks.

>

> Hello Everyone,

>

> I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone

> diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the

> feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not

> the diagnosis.

>

> So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the

> patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.

>

> This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just

> bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

>

January 10, 2010

An interesting post, .Â Thanks.Â

To clarify, for your depressed protocol, does that mean you might

reward

F3A1 at 15-18 (beta) F4-A2 10-13 hz (high alpha)

with 2 channels simultaneously.Â

Mike Cohen

www.CenterforBrain.com

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of R.

Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 5:11 PM

Subject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

After more

than 8,000 sessions for the past 7 years, I noticed some important

" patterns " for certain cases.

The most obvious one is paranoiac-schizophrenia. Left frontal-temporal presents

high amplitude in delta and theta, and right temporal-parietal beta and high

beta are pretty high in amplitude.

.. . .

The other one was for depressed people. Clearly left to right frontal

unbalanced (Reversion) at alpha and beta.

Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a 5 Hz reward frequency difference

between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called

the " Cymbalta " protocol

My grain of salt in this vast ocean

JR

From: Van Deusen

<pvdtlc@...>

Sent: Sat, January 9, 2010 12:42:16 PM

Subject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

Unless there has been some recent work of which

I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and

" bipolar " disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to

define exactly what bipolar disorder is and who has it.

Bipolar has gone from being quite a rare diagnosis in the early 90's, when I

first started training, to being quite trendy a few years ago. I saw some

data recently that in the decade from 1993 to 2003 the number of kids diagnosed

as bipolar went from 20,000 to over 800,000--a 40 times increase! A lot

of people--especially kids--who were emotionally labile and angry (in the 90's

they were part of the explosion in ADHD--another diagnosis that a decade

earlier began suddenly to afflict many times more children)--now get dumped

into the bipolar category. This is rather unfortunate since psychiatric

diagnoses have a nasty habit of sticking around throughout a person's life on

academic and medical records. ADHD is bad enough, but bipolar disorder is

a psychosis of sorts. Of course that means that a child can be given the

latest " cocktail " of stimulant/anti- depressant/ anti-psychotic

powerful psycho-active drugs, but it also means that they'll carry that label

into adulthood. Even professionals who believe the diagnostic explosion

represents a " maturing " in the field of psychiatry (?!) frankly admit

that no-one has any idea how many, if any, of these children will actually

" have " the disorder when they become adults--kind of a strange thing

to admit regarding a disorder that until 10-15 years ago was ONLY considered to

be diagnosed in adults.

I asked Jay Gunkelman--a guy whose ability to read a QEEG and tell you about a

person he's never met borders on witchcraft-- a few years ago about EEG and

bipolar. At that time, he didn't see it as related to brain function so

much as to excessive autonomic cycling: when the ANS tilted into

sympathetic mode, there was a manic period; when there was adrenal exhaustion,

you saw the depressive phase.

Here as in most other areas, I strongly believe that if you are capable of

working at the level of the brain's own activation patterns, you can safely

dispense with the labels. I don't care if you are talking about

" anxiety " , " depression " , " rage " or other

diagnostic labels. The disorder titles are essentially descriptions of

symptoms--NOT an indication of what underlies the symptoms. There are

probably 6-10 patterns that have been shown to occur in people who are anxious,

probably about the same number in people who are depressed, etc. So the

diagnosis is useless in terms of telling us how or where to train. If you

want to change a person's ability to perform/behave/ feel/learn in some stable

way, then define the specific behavioral issues that client wants to change and

look at the EEG for patterns (using a TLC or a QEEG or whatever brain-based

assessment you choose) that have been linked in research to those

behaviors/moods, etc. Train to change those.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM, jon glenn <j590blu (DOT) com>

wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone

diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the

feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not the

diagnosis.

So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the patient

has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what fits.

This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just

bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

January 10, 2010

Thanks. By the way, this tracks pretty closely to what the Othmer's are doing

now, and I've had a lot of success training at the F and FP sites in this way.

> >

> > Hello Everyone,

> >

> > I was not able to find any clear information on anyone training someone

> > diagnosed with Bipolar, through searching all the postings, but I get the

> > feeling that the general consensus is to train based on the assessment, not

> > the diagnosis.

> >

> > So I would do the brain map, and the symptom list, and see where the

> > patient has the discomfort and go through the list of protocols to see what

fits.

> >

> > This patient is on many meds, and has been diagnosed with more than just

> > bipolar, but I assume the method is the same regardless.

> >

>

January 10, 2010

Hi Mike,Long time no heard from you, happy new year!!As I clarified on other posts, I was talking about one channel training, first F3, then F4. But you may also do it in a two channels protocol.Take care, and hope to see you soon JRFrom: MikeCohenEEG <mcoheneeg@...> Sent: Sun,

January 10, 2010 3:44:16 PMSubject: RE: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

An interesting post, . Thanks. To clarify, for your depressed protocol, does that mean you might

reward F3A1 at 15-18 (beta) F4-A2 10-13 hz (high alpha) with 2 channels simultaneously. Mike Cohen www.CenterforBrain. com

From:

[mailto:braintraine rgroups (DOT) com] On Behalf

Of R.

Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 5:11 PM

Subject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

After more

than 8,000 sessions for the past 7 years, I noticed some important

"patterns" for certain cases.

The most obvious one is paranoiac-schizophr enia. Left frontal-temporal presents

high amplitude in delta and theta, and right temporal-parietal beta and high

beta are pretty high in amplitude.

.. . .

The other one was for depressed people. Clearly left to right frontal

unbalanced (Reversion) at alpha and beta.

Usually F3/A1 and F4/A2 training with a 5 Hz reward frequency difference

between them will make the person to feel stable and in a good mood. I called

the "Cymbalta" protocol

My grain of salt in this vast ocean

JR

From: Van Deusen

Sent: Sat, January 9, 2010 12:42:16 PM

Subject: Re: General Training Question - Bipolar Disorder

Unless there has been some recent work of which

I'm not aware, there is almost nothing available on brain patterns and

"bipolar" disorder--partly, perhaps, because it is so difficult to