Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't teach them. IT's like giving a bank robber detailed plans of the bank. Could we not argue that he might have a deeper appreciation for the bank's engineering, its stunning internal arrangements, etc., but no one in their right minds would do it!

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

tell them the Creighton model is up to 80% successful in achieving

pregnancy for couples who are infertile, after trying for a year.

And, go to YouTube for stories from the Ipolites from CA who failed

IVF several times and achieved a pregnancy with Naprotechnology :

doctors seeking underlying causes of women's health / infertility

issues. AND treating those.

So, she gets health WHILE seeking baby. IVF will only really try to

" get baby " It's a more shared way / peaceful approach....to take

focus off getting baby eagerness related to her fertility doctors.

And share the focus on healing her! She'll feel more whole as a

woman and dignified, to be healing her body in prep for baby....Her

husband will feel more part of her healing as well.

in Christ, Therese

On 5/8/12, Dominic <pedullad@...> wrote:

> I wouldn't teach them. IT's like giving a bank robber detailed plans of the

> bank. Could we not argue that he might have a deeper appreciation for the

> bank's engineering, its stunning internal arrangements, etc., but no one in

> their right minds would do it!

>

>

> Sincerely yours,

>

> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

> Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein

> Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning

> Researcher

> Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center

> (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

> Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation

> (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

> 405-947-2228 (office)

> 405-834-7506 (cell)

> 405-947-2307 (FAX)

> pedullad@...

>

>

> " ...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the

> continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the

> continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to

> civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the

> sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ

> himself. " (Inter Insignores)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for

> IVF...

>

>

>

>

>

> What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who

> approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to

> them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and

> takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a

> scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a

> higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation

> to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to

> Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

--

Therese , RN, FCP*

*FertilityCare Practitioner

www.potomacfertility.org

" your cycles, your fertility, in your hands "

[Guest guest]

absolutely right! But, I would never do it if it's clear the intent is merely to use it for IVF.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for

> IVF...

>

>

>

>

>

> What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who

> approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to

> them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and

> takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a

> scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a

> higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation

> to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to

> Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

--

Therese , RN, FCP*

*FertilityCare Practitioner

www.potomacfertility.org

"your cycles, your fertility, in your hands"

[Guest guest]

I would not deny them instruction, as per the philosophy of the BOM that every woman is entitled to the knowledge of her fertility. It's not my job to govern what does with that knowledge. Through the course of instruction in the method, she may grow in respect for her body and her fertility....and we may also discover clues from her chart that indicate a treatable problem. I think most couples would rather pursue less invasive treament than IVF if given the option! The IVF industry capitalizes on the vulnerability of couples in very real pain. Why would we turn our backs on them? Most have probably never given the morality of it a thought, they just long for a baby. I think it's would be a very opportune moment to let them know there are other options they could try. I would definitely make such a client aware of the physicians I consult with who use NFP as a diagnostic tool for treating infertility. Some are NaPro, some are not. Because religious content is not part of the instruction I give, I wouldn't discuss the religious or moral position on IVF. I would discuss the risks, it's high failure rate, and how much we still don't know about it's long term consequences. Many of my clients are not from a religious background and launching into Catholic theology would likely get their backs up before they could even hear me out. You can bet they do care about their health though! It's common ground that we share, so that's where I'd operate.a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod From: oconnor1124@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 05:09:40 +0000Subject: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

This is the majority opinion among NFP folks, so a you're certainly in good company but I don't believe it's morally quite correct. We are in general entitled to know what we need to know to pursue the good, so in most cases there's no problem instructing folks on their fertility, but in those rather rare situations where the clear intent is to pursue evil, this is not the case.

We might meet an analogous moral issue in medicine when a patient might want to know the best and most painless way to commit suicide, and so seeks a detailed knowledge from a doctor about the gastrointestinal system, but the doc in no way is obliged to provide this in that setting.

So, yes, this is the common opinion in the NFP movement, but I have never believed it is right.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

But how would you know just how clear their intent is without meeting with them? Listening to them? Perhaps they may not realize the moral gravity of what they are pursuing and therefore, not as intent on evil as you suggest. (Not debating the inherent evil of IVF, just the couple's culpability in it). They are simply desperate. Perhaps IVF has been the only offer of hope given to them? They may be quite open to alternatives, but may have never heard of any before their encounter with an NFP instructor. Their pursuit/interest in IVF would suggest to me that the enemy has already seduced them with his lies, but there is still time to set them free with the truth. Given a last minute opportunity to to step into the ring with him (St. Micheal at my back ) and fight for this couple and the lives about to be lost through IVF....I would do it. I may fail; they still have their free will when all is said and done, but I would try. I don't believe I would be an accomplice to the sin of IVF by helping the woman understand her body. This knowledge belongs to her, regardless of her intentions. But perhaps I need to speak to my spiritual director about that. This is a great question to ask him. I have only ever encountered couples who were in the early stages of considering IVF, not on the brink of having it done. They have all appreciated the insight NFP gave them and the news that there are healthful alternatives.a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod From: pedullad@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 12:13:52 -0400Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

This is the majority opinion among NFP folks, so a you're certainly in good company but I don't believe it's morally quite correct. We are in general entitled to know what we need to know to pursue the good, so in most cases there's no problem instructing folks on their fertility, but in those rather rare situations where the clear intent is to pursue evil, this is not the case.

We might meet an analogous moral issue in medicine when a patient might want to know the best and most painless way to commit suicide, and so seeks a detailed knowledge from a doctor about the gastrointestinal system, but the doc in no way is obliged to provide this in that setting.

So, yes, this is the common opinion in the NFP movement, but I have never believed it is right.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

Of course you would meet with them and talk with them. And as far as having a right to knowledge of one's own fertility, as has said very well, a prior right (and duty), which comes before the right to purely biological knowledge, is the right to the full apprehension of God's plan for the body and for conjugal love and responsible parenthood. Even in Humanae Vitae where VI argues that knowledge of the "biological rhythms", etc., is needed the assumed context is responsible parenthood. In that sense it is of course a great thing to meet with them, not so much to impart biological knowledge but to assist them in a proper reading of the norms inscribed into our sexuality regarding responsible parenthood. To this kind of meeting with them I say of course "Amen!". That is also why some morel theologians for example consider teaching unmarried, cohabitating couples as couples morally problematic (unless in context of proximate preparation for marriage) because the man has as yet no natural right to the knowledge of the woman's fertility since responsible parenthood is directly contradicted by the relationship as it currently exists.

But here is where something of a conundrum often affects modern NFP instruction because it is precisely here where many NFP instructors will say "it is not my place to give moral instruction here or tell the couple how they are to use their God-given gift of fertility -- that is for them to decide". And to this I would gently re-assert that even the teaching of fertility is not strictly speaking a completely morally-neutral thing, as it is assumed one intends to reach for properly human ends, and the instruction is intended precisely as a rational means of acquiring or reaching those ends. If the ends are not properly speaking well ordered to our human natures, then the instruction itself can become a way of reaching disordered ends or employing disordered means. NFP instruction is in part at least a moral enterprise where the instructor assists the couple in achieving rational use of the gift of both sexuality and fertility, ordered in this design to responsible parenthood.

IN either case it is not wrong to tell them (in fact I think it is 100% right) that you would be happy to meet with them to help them better understand the human rationale belonging to human sexuality and fertility, but also to help them to see that immoral "assisted fertility techniques" represent a disordered and even inhuman use of that gift, and so you will not be able to assist them that way.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

I would wonder if you should not first be asking about your own moral obligation, , if you know that you are being asked to teach them only so that they can know the time when an ovum can be retrieved for IVF. I would question your own role cooperating formal, material??? So in counseling, it would seem wise to tell them why you could not assist them and invite them to consider other options, like have they had a second opinion and refer them as you indicated Hanna Klaus, M.D. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of cindy4lifeoconnorSent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 1:10 AM Subject: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF... What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs? -

[Guest guest]

Sometimes the biological knowledge of God's design (even if one doesn't yet give Him the credit) is what begins to open hearts to grace. That opening may be the first step towards full appreciation of God's plan for conjugal love. First the bodies, then the hearts and souls. One won't necessarily come before the other (though if we were all properly catechized along the way it would, but that's another rant for another day! LOL) For example, the unmarried couple seeking NFP instruction because the woman dislikes the side effects of the Pill. Should we deny them instruction because they do not yet fully appreciate God's plan for sexuality? They are already committing what we would recognize as mortal sin, doubly so. NFP would move them away from one of the mortal sins at least (and possibly save lives from the abortifacient potential of the Pill). Their relationship would come a little closer to what God designed. A tiny step, but a step! Some couples find that abandoning the "security" of their contraceptive in favour of NFP makes them give new thought to the idea of a lifelong commitment. It seems more relevant, perhaps because they are beginning to have a deeper appreciation for the connection between love and life. It's easier to ignore that connection when living under the illusion that contraception has effectively divorced love and life. Remove the illusion and the time comes to face reality.I do understand what you're saying though, and I appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this. It does give me a lot to think about. a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod From: pedullad@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 14:26:16 -0400Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Of course you would meet with them and talk with them. And as far as having a right to knowledge of one's own fertility, as has said very well, a prior right (and duty), which comes before the right to purely biological knowledge, is the right to the full apprehension of God's plan for the body and for conjugal love and responsible parenthood. Even in Humanae Vitae where VI argues that knowledge of the "biological rhythms", etc., is needed the assumed context is responsible parenthood. In that sense it is of course a great thing to meet with them, not so much to impart biological knowledge but to assist them in a proper reading of the norms inscribed into our sexuality regarding responsible parenthood. To this kind of meeting with them I say of course "Amen!". That is also why some morel theologians for example consider teaching unmarried, cohabitating couples as couples morally problematic (unless in context of proximate preparation for marriage) because the man has as yet no natural right to the knowledge of the woman's fertility since responsible parenthood is directly contradicted by the relationship as it currently exists.

But here is where something of a conundrum often affects modern NFP instruction because it is precisely here where many NFP instructors will say "it is not my place to give moral instruction here or tell the couple how they are to use their God-given gift of fertility -- that is for them to decide". And to this I would gently re-assert that even the teaching of fertility is not strictly speaking a completely morally-neutral thing, as it is assumed one intends to reach for properly human ends, and the instruction is intended precisely as a rational means of acquiring or reaching those ends. If the ends are not properly speaking well ordered to our human natures, then the instruction itself can become a way of reaching disordered ends or employing disordered means. NFP instruction is in part at least a moral enterprise where the instructor assists the couple in achieving rational use of the gift of both sexuality and fertility, ordered in this design to responsible parenthood.

IN either case it is not wrong to tell them (in fact I think it is 100% right) that you would be happy to meet with them to help them better understand the human rationale belonging to human sexuality and fertility, but also to help them to see that immoral "assisted fertility techniques" represent a disordered and even inhuman use of that gift, and so you will not be able to assist them that way.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

Yes and it's kind of you to say that; it's not that a certain good can't come of it, but as St. says and the Church teaches, we may never "do evil that good may come of it (cf. Rom. 3:8)". It musn't be as a result of choosing an incorrect course that the good arises, for the situation to be salvageable morally. And trusting the Lord means we must sometimes let some good things go, for fear of violating what is better.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

Fertility educator Sederstrand has this saying: When you tell a woman how she’s made, you’re telling her about her Maker! as quoted in http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/the-tunnel-of-parenthood.html

From: nfplethbridge@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:49:41 -0600Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Sometimes the biological knowledge of God's design (even if one doesn't yet give Him the credit) is what begins to open hearts to grace. That opening may be the first step towards full appreciation of God's plan for conjugal love. First the bodies, then the hearts and souls. One won't necessarily come before the other (though if we were all properly catechized along the way it would, but that's another rant for another day! LOL) For example, the unmarried couple seeking NFP instruction because the woman dislikes the side effects of the Pill. Should we deny them instruction because they do not yet fully appreciate God's plan for sexuality? They are already committing what we would recognize as mortal sin, doubly so. NFP would move them away from one of the mortal sins at least (and possibly save lives from the abortifacient potential of the Pill). Their relationship would come a little closer to what God designed. A tiny step, but a step! Some couples find that abandoning the "security" of their contraceptive in favour of NFP makes them give new thought to the idea of a lifelong commitment. It seems more relevant, perhaps because they are beginning to have a deeper appreciation for the connection between love and life. It's easier to ignore that connection when living under the illusion that contraception has effectively divorced love and life. Remove the illusion and the time comes to face reality.I do understand what you're saying though, and I appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this. It does give me a lot to think about. a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: pedullad@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 14:26:16 -0400Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Of course you would meet with them and talk with them. And as far as having a right to knowledge of one's own fertility, as has said very well, a prior right (and duty), which comes before the right to purely biological knowledge, is the right to the full apprehension of God's plan for the body and for conjugal love and responsible parenthood. Even in Humanae Vitae where VI argues that knowledge of the "biological rhythms", etc., is needed the assumed context is responsible parenthood. In that sense it is of course a great thing to meet with them, not so much to impart biological knowledge but to assist them in a proper reading of the norms inscribed into our sexuality regarding responsible parenthood. To this kind of meeting with them I say of course "Amen!". That is also why some morel theologians for example consider teaching unmarried, cohabitating couples as couples morally problematic (unless in context of proximate preparation for marriage) because the man has as yet no natural right to the knowledge of the woman's fertility since responsible parenthood is directly contradicted by the relationship as it currently exists.

But here is where something of a conundrum often affects modern NFP instruction because it is precisely here where many NFP instructors will say "it is not my place to give moral instruction here or tell the couple how they are to use their God-given gift of fertility -- that is for them to decide". And to this I would gently re-assert that even the teaching of fertility is not strictly speaking a completely morally-neutral thing, as it is assumed one intends to reach for properly human ends, and the instruction is intended precisely as a rational means of acquiring or reaching those ends. If the ends are not properly speaking well ordered to our human natures, then the instruction itself can become a way of reaching disordered ends or employing disordered means. NFP instruction is in part at least a moral enterprise where the instructor assists the couple in achieving rational use of the gift of both sexuality and fertility, ordered in this design to responsible parenthood.

IN either case it is not wrong to tell them (in fact I think it is 100% right) that you would be happy to meet with them to help them better understand the human rationale belonging to human sexuality and fertility, but also to help them to see that immoral "assisted fertility techniques" represent a disordered and even inhuman use of that gift, and so you will not be able to assist them that way.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs? -

[Guest guest]

Most IVF doctors will not use NFP biomarkers to retrieve eggs.  They will simply modify the body for their own purposes/ take over the body.  So the fact that the couple wants to learn NFP could be a sign that they are searching for something different?

Amy Hogan, MD

PS.  I vote teach them.  You are sharing good news.  You should educate them as to how IVF is morally and physically harmful to the body.  Your moral culpability is if you withhold the truth from them.  I say not acting would be good you failed to do.

On May 8, 2012 11:07 PM, " Steve Koob " <koob_8@...> wrote:

 

Fertility educator Sederstrand has this saying:      When you tell a woman how she’s made, you’re telling her about her Maker!  as quoted in  http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/the-tunnel-of-parenthood.html

From: nfplethbridge@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:49:41 -0600

Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF... 

Sometimes the biological knowledge of God's design (even if one doesn't yet give Him the credit) is what begins to open hearts to grace.  That opening may be the first step towards full appreciation of God's plan for conjugal love.  First the bodies, then the hearts and souls.  One won't necessarily come before the other (though if we were all properly catechized along the way it would, but that's another rant for another day! LOL)

For example, the unmarried couple seeking NFP instruction because the woman dislikes the side effects of the Pill.   Should we deny them instruction because they do not yet fully appreciate God's plan for sexuality?   They are already committing what we would recognize as mortal sin, doubly so.  NFP would move them away from one of the mortal sins at least (and possibly save lives from the abortifacient potential of the Pill).   Their relationship would come a little closer to what God designed.  A tiny step, but a step!  Some couples find that abandoning the " security " of their contraceptive in favour of NFP makes them give new thought to the idea of a lifelong commitment.  It seems more relevant, perhaps because they are beginning to have a deeper appreciation for the connection between love and life.  It's easier to ignore that connection when living under the illusion that contraception has effectively divorced love and life.   Remove the illusion and the time comes to face reality.

I do understand what you're saying though, and I appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this.  It does give me a lot to think about. a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Method

www.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: pedullad@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 14:26:16 -0400

Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF... 

Of course you would meet with them and talk with them. And as far as having a right to knowledge of one's own fertility, as has said very well, a prior right (and duty), which comes before the right to purely biological knowledge, is the right to the full apprehension of God's plan for the body and for conjugal love and responsible parenthood. Even in Humanae Vitae where VI argues that knowledge of the " biological rhythms " , etc., is needed the assumed context is responsible parenthood.  In that sense it is of course a great thing to meet with them, not so much to impart biological knowledge but to assist them in a proper reading of the norms inscribed into our sexuality regarding responsible parenthood. To this kind of meeting with them I say of course " Amen! " . That is also why some morel theologians for example consider teaching unmarried, cohabitating couples as couples morally problematic (unless in context of proximate preparation for marriage) because the man has as yet no natural right to the knowledge of the woman's fertility since responsible parenthood is directly contradicted by the relationship as it currently exists. 

But here is where something of a conundrum often affects modern NFP instruction because it is precisely here where many NFP instructors will say " it is not my place to give moral instruction here or tell the couple how they are to use their God-given gift of fertility -- that is for them to decide " . And to this I would gently re-assert that even the teaching of fertility is not strictly speaking a completely morally-neutral thing, as it is assumed one intends to reach for properly human ends, and the instruction is intended precisely as a rational means of acquiring or reaching those ends. If the ends are not properly speaking well ordered to our human natures, then the instruction itself can become a way of reaching disordered ends or employing disordered means.  NFP instruction is in part at least a moral enterprise where the instructor assists the couple in achieving rational use of the gift of both sexuality and fertility, ordered in this design to responsible parenthood.

IN either case it is not wrong to tell them (in fact I think it is 100% right) that you would be happy to meet with them to help them better understand the human rationale belonging to human sexuality and fertility, but also to help them to see that immoral " assisted fertility techniques " represent a disordered and even inhuman use of that gift, and so you will not be able to assist them that way.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

" ...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself. " (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF... 

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

For what it’s worth, here’s Catholic moral theologian Germain Grisez on a case that’s not identical to this one but does have significant parallels with it, I think:

http://www.twotlj.org/G-3-69.html

, PhD

Moral Theology

Franciscan Univ. of Steubenville

From: Amy Hogan

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:38 AM

Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Most IVF doctors will not use NFP biomarkers to retrieve eggs. They will simply modify the body for their own purposes/ take over the body. So the fact that the couple wants to learn NFP could be a sign that they are searching for something different?

Amy Hogan, MD

PS. I vote teach them. You are sharing good news. You should educate them as to how IVF is morally and physically harmful to the body. Your moral culpability is if you withhold the truth from them. I say not acting would be good you failed to do.

On May 8, 2012 11:07 PM, "Steve Koob" <koob_8@...> wrote:

Fertility educator Sederstrand has this saying: When you tell a woman how she’s made, you’re telling her about her Maker! as quoted in http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/the-tunnel-of-parenthood.html

From: nfplethbridge@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:49:41 -0600Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Sometimes the biological knowledge of God's design (even if one doesn't yet give Him the credit) is what begins to open hearts to grace. That opening may be the first step towards full appreciation of God's plan for conjugal love. First the bodies, then the hearts and souls. One won't necessarily come before the other (though if we were all properly catechized along the way it would, but that's another rant for another day! LOL) For example, the unmarried couple seeking NFP instruction because the woman dislikes the side effects of the Pill. Should we deny them instruction because they do not yet fully appreciate God's plan for sexuality? They are already committing what we would recognize as mortal sin, doubly so. NFP would move them away from one of the mortal sins at least (and possibly save lives from the abortifacient potential of the Pill). Their relationship would come a little closer to what God designed. A tiny step, but a step! Some couples find that abandoning the "security" of their contraceptive in favour of NFP makes them give new thought to the idea of a lifelong commitment. It seems more relevant, perhaps because they are beginning to have a deeper appreciation for the connection between love and life. It's easier to ignore that connection when living under the illusion that contraception has effectively divorced love and life. Remove the illusion and the time comes to face reality.I do understand what you're saying though, and I appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this. It does give me a lot to think about. a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: pedullad@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 14:26:16 -0400Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Of course you would meet with them and talk with them. And as far as having a right to knowledge of one's own fertility, as has said very well, a prior right (and duty), which comes before the right to purely biological knowledge, is the right to the full apprehension of God's plan for the body and for conjugal love and responsible parenthood. Even in Humanae Vitae where VI argues that knowledge of the "biological rhythms", etc., is needed the assumed context is responsible parenthood. In that sense it is of course a great thing to meet with them, not so much to impart biological knowledge but to assist them in a proper reading of the norms inscribed into our sexuality regarding responsible parenthood. To this kind of meeting with them I say of course "Amen!". That is also why some morel theologians for example consider teaching unmarried, cohabitating couples as couples morally problematic (unless in context of proximate preparation for marriage) because the man has as yet no natural right to the knowledge of the woman's fertility since responsible parenthood is directly contradicted by the relationship as it currently exists.

But here is where something of a conundrum often affects modern NFP instruction because it is precisely here where many NFP instructors will say "it is not my place to give moral instruction here or tell the couple how they are to use their God-given gift of fertility -- that is for them to decide". And to this I would gently re-assert that even the teaching of fertility is not strictly speaking a completely morally-neutral thing, as it is assumed one intends to reach for properly human ends, and the instruction is intended precisely as a rational means of acquiring or reaching those ends. If the ends are not properly speaking well ordered to our human natures, then the instruction itself can become a way of reaching disordered ends or employing disordered means. NFP instruction is in part at least a moral enterprise where the instructor assists the couple in achieving rational use of the gift of both sexuality and fertility, ordered in this design to responsible parenthood.

IN either case it is not wrong to tell them (in fact I think it is 100% right) that you would be happy to meet with them to help them better understand the human rationale belonging to human sexuality and fertility, but also to help them to see that immoral "assisted fertility techniques" represent a disordered and even inhuman use of that gift, and so you will not be able to assist them that way.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs? -

[Guest guest]

This is a true story related to the above ongoing discussion. Thanks , for the preceding case. I have a known Catholic family practice. Patients come into our office and are met by a Blessed Virgin statue and a dish of Miraculous Medals for the taking. I have, for whatever reason, several lesbian patients in my practice. They come, I have been told, because I "listen". So, Carla and have been longterm Christian Lesbian partners, and have recently gotten "married" on a beach ceremony somewhere and are active in their local church. I have been treating for PCOS, and she has lost 30 pounds, and her regular cycles have returned, and she is 45. She wants to know if she could get pregnant at 45. Her partner Carla is 55. Carla does

not want to become pregnant. initially agrees with Carla, that she doesn't want a baby either, but then she changes her mind. They know that as a Catholic physician, i believe marriage is a covenantal relationship, and between one man and one woman. We have, up to this point, agreed to disagree about their relationship. I have treated them separately for various medial illnesses over the last 7 years. During our last visit, asks if i can help determine if she is ovulating for sure. I tell her that if she is having regular cycles, she is probably ovulating, and questioned her about cervical mucus, which she denies having any (despite slides and explanation). I explained the ClearBlue Fertility monitor and she is interested in testing her urinary hormones to see if she is ovulating. Upon further questioning, she confides in me, that as a Vetrinarian Technician, she

has been involved in impregnantion attempts by animals for breeding purposes. She tells me that if she is ovulating, and if she can find the exact time of maximal fertility, she would call a male "friend", and obtain a semen specimen, and get a catheter and self-inject the sperm into her body, (i.e. a "home" artificial insemination attempt). Her partner Carla has no idea that she is thinking about this. After much time spent with , after explaining the meaning of the marital act, the unitive and procreative aspects, the mystical, sacred nature of the act, I asked if she thought that any of her aforementioned plan resembled in any way the sacred, mystical, love-giving act i had explained. She broke into tears, started sobbing and just kept reiterating that she wanted a child so badly - she wanted to be a mother so badly. She related to me a previous adoption attempt whereby

she and Carla had almost obtained a baby for adoption through a private lawyer, and then, at the last moment, the baby's grandparents found out they were lesbian and called the whole thing off. I asked why she wanted to be a mother, if she was in a lesbian relationship, where obviously, that could not easily happen. She related a whole host of other problems, like anger at her mother, at fear of intimacy, of peer pressure, of fear of being alone later in life - but none of her comments were about love of her partner or love of the potential child. I explained the health problems she may have during pregnancy, and tried to get her understand how hard it might be for the baby she brought into the world. She understood that to tell her potential son or daughter someday the way that baby was conceived was a huge injustice to that child. To deprive the child of a mother and a

father was another injustice. We could agree that children need the special influences of mothers and fathers. She herself had had a loving father who balanced out her unloving mother. She went home that day and we both had much to think about. Am I guilty of formal material cooperation in evil? I explained the Marquette Lite model of NFP to her, but through the explanation, her plan for artificial insemination was seen for what it was - animalistic, nonloving, selfish. Furthermore, she has real food for thought to now reexamine her current relationship and for all I know, the next time I see these two, there may be major changes in their relationship. I continue to pray for them, and I realize that I love them both, and only want what God has intended for them. I think they know that now, but had I refused to talk with them and "meet them where they are", I don't think that

any progress at all might have been made... Blessings, Dr. Peck, MD, CCD, ABFM, Marquette NFP InstructorPecks Family Practice, PLC1688 W Granada Blvd, Ste 2AOrmond Beach, FL 32174(386) 677-2018 fax: (386) 676-0737 cell: (386) 212-9777 From: E. <k.e.miller@...> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2012 6:54 AM Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

For what it’s worth, here’s Catholic moral theologian Germain Grisez on a case that’s not identical to this one but does have significant parallels with it, I think:

http://www.twotlj.org/G-3-69.html

, PhD

Moral Theology

Franciscan Univ. of Steubenville

From: Amy Hogan

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:38 AM

Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Most IVF doctors will not use NFP biomarkers to retrieve eggs. They will simply modify the body for their own purposes/ take over the body. So the fact that the couple wants to learn NFP could be a sign that they are searching for something different?

Amy Hogan, MD

PS. I vote teach them. You are sharing good news. You should educate them as to how IVF is morally and physically harmful to the body. Your moral culpability is if you withhold the truth from them. I say not acting would be good you failed to do.

On May 8, 2012 11:07 PM, "Steve Koob" <koob_8@...> wrote:

Fertility educator Sederstrand has this saying: When you tell a woman how she’s made, you’re telling her about her Maker! as quoted in http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/the-tunnel-of-parenthood.html

From: nfplethbridge@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:49:41 -0600Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Sometimes the biological knowledge of God's design (even if one doesn't yet give Him the credit) is what begins to open hearts to grace. That opening may be the first step towards full appreciation of God's plan for conjugal love. First the bodies, then the hearts and souls. One won't necessarily come before the other (though if we were all properly catechized along the way it would, but that's another rant for another day! LOL) For example, the unmarried couple seeking NFP instruction because the woman dislikes the side effects of the Pill. Should we deny them instruction because they do not yet fully appreciate God's plan for sexuality? They are already committing what we would recognize as mortal sin, doubly so. NFP would move them away from one of the mortal sins at least (and possibly save lives from the abortifacient potential of the Pill). Their relationship would come a little closer to what God designed. A tiny step, but a step! Some couples find that abandoning the "security" of their contraceptive in favour of NFP makes them give new thought to the idea of a lifelong commitment. It seems more relevant, perhaps because they are beginning to have a deeper appreciation for the connection between love and life. It's easier to ignore that connection when living under the illusion that contraception has effectively divorced love and life. Remove the illusion and the time comes to face reality.I do understand what you're saying though, and I appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this. It does give me a lot to think about. a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: pedullad@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 14:26:16 -0400Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Of course you would meet with them and talk with them. And as far as having a right to knowledge of one's own fertility, as has said very well, a prior right (and duty), which comes before the right to purely biological knowledge, is the right to the full apprehension of God's plan for the body and for conjugal love and responsible parenthood. Even in Humanae Vitae where VI argues that knowledge of the "biological rhythms", etc., is needed the assumed context is responsible parenthood. In that sense it is of course a great thing to meet with them, not so much to impart biological knowledge but to assist them in a proper reading of the norms inscribed into our sexuality regarding responsible parenthood. To this kind of meeting with them I say of course "Amen!". That is also why some morel theologians for example consider teaching unmarried, cohabitating couples as couples morally problematic (unless in context of proximate preparation for marriage) because the man has as yet no natural right to the knowledge of the woman's fertility since responsible parenthood is directly contradicted by the relationship as it currently exists.

But here is where something of a conundrum often affects modern NFP instruction because it is precisely here where many NFP instructors will say "it is not my place to give moral instruction here or tell the couple how they are to use their God-given gift of fertility -- that is for them to decide". And to this I would gently re-assert that even the teaching of fertility is not strictly speaking a completely morally-neutral thing, as it is assumed one intends to reach for properly human ends, and the instruction is intended precisely as a rational means of acquiring or reaching those ends. If the ends are not properly speaking well ordered to our human natures, then the instruction itself can become a way of reaching disordered ends or employing disordered means. NFP instruction is in part at least a moral enterprise where the instructor assists the couple in achieving rational use of the gift of both sexuality and fertility, ordered in this design to responsible parenthood.

IN either case it is not wrong to tell them (in fact I think it is 100% right) that you would be happy to meet with them to help them better understand the human rationale belonging to human sexuality and fertility, but also to help them to see that immoral "assisted fertility techniques" represent a disordered and even inhuman use of that gift, and so you will not be able to assist them that way.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs? -

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing this story. Just a quick comment. Have plenty of anovulatory women who bleed like clockwork. Most of my infertility colleagues also believe that 28 day cycles imply ovulation. Newton's Law: what goes up, must come down.

, M.D.,FACOG

obdoc2000@...

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

No not guilty of anything. But you underestimate how much progress has been made. For the first time probably, she bared her soul and maybe it will be easier for her to end those parts of her lifestyle that are continuing to abuse her. ANd I would say you taught her not the purely biological but the anthropological -- for her far more important. Recall too that your situation is different from NFP providers in a person without illness who just wants to get something out of it and doesn't care how. Here there is an illness you are treating - -a totally different situation. Recall too the Grisez case specifies "a doctor", implying the context of healthcare, presumably for something that's actually compromising, or threatening to compromise, health.

No I think you did only the good. And in any case there is no question whatsoever of formal cooperation. There you would be required to will the same deviation as she's willing.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

What moral obligations do we have as NFP instructors to the couple who approaches us seeking NFP for their upcoming IVF session? I know to speak to them in charity and truth about how IVF works - how it's gravely evil and takes the unitive aspect out of procreation and gives it to a scientist...and I can speak to them that babies born through IVF have a higher risk of being born with a birth defect. Do I have a moral obligation to teach them the NFP method? Would it be more prudent to refer them to Creighton and NaPro doctors/FCCs?

-

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your excellent input. I think for myself, since I'm operating on my own as solely a NFP instructor, and not with a practice, I feel it would be more prudent of me to refer this couple to the Creighton practitioner in my area, and give them my reasonings why. I commend you Dr. Peck, on how you handled your patient's situation. She obviously has a lot of trust in you and you have a great report with your patients. I however, would not have any prior relationship with this couple. I almost feel that yes, it is good that every woman know about her fertility, but consider this: say anyone who wants flight instruction, should be allowed to get the knowledge, however, if the terrorists who trained in Vero Beach, FL, would have told their instructors their intent was to fly an aircraft into the WTC and kill innocent lives, I don't think the instructors would have had any problem denying them instruction and reporting them to civil authorities (unfortunately killing innocent humans is sanctioned in IVF and abortion). So if a couple is upfront about their reason to use NFP is to just the get data and tune everything else out b/c they feel so desperate they are willing to sacrifice how many souls for the chance to get pregnant (never mind the odds that it has a high failure rate)! I think for professional integrity, referral to another form of NFP that does have the capability of helping infertile couples seems to be a better choice.

-

[Guest guest]

Hmmm... I don't know if I "buy" the terrorist plane analogy (but it is interesting). First of all, you can find exact instructions on how to carry out many of our methods on websites, apps and in books (/, your thoughts on making the info widely available on media such as these, even if nonmarried people can access these?)However, I appreciate yours and Les' comments and I guess there are at least 2 schools of thoughts then in the instruction of "inappropriate (for lack of a better term)" patients: (1) the purist school (as Les indicated, only those patients meeting certain qualifications -- married or engaged or the (2) "daniel in the lions den" school - you teach inappropriate patients hoping that you are going to ultimately convert them. Then there are all those patients who fall between the two extremes, and perhaps we could debate whether we should "throw our pearls before swine" or whether we should recognize the state of their spiritual journey, giving "milk" for those in early stages and more substantial spiritual food for those in later stages... Blessings, rebeccaSent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: " Dan O'C." <oconnor1124@...>Sender: Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 13:08:57 -0400< >Reply Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFPfor IVF... Thank you all for your excellent input. I think for myself, since I'm operating on my own as solely a NFP instructor, and not with a practice, I feel it would be more prudent of me to refer this couple to the Creighton practitioner in my area, and give them my reasonings why. I commend you Dr. Peck, on how you handled your patient's situation. She obviously has a lot of trust in you and you have a great report with your patients. I however, would not have any prior relationship with this couple. I almost feel that yes, it is good that every woman know about her fertility, but consider this: say anyone who wants flight instruction, should be allowed to get the knowledge, however, if the terrorists who trained in Vero Beach, FL, would have told their instructors their intent was to fly an aircraft into the WTC and kill innocent lives, I don't think the instructors would have had any problem denying them instruction and reporting them to civil authorities (unfortunately killing innocent humans is sanctioned in IVF and abortion). So if a couple is upfront about their reason to use NFP is to just the get data and tune everything else out b/c they feel so desperate they are willing to sacrifice how many souls for the chance to get pregnant (never mind the odds that it has a high failure rate)! I think for professional integrity, referral to another form of NFP that does have the capability of helping infertile couples seems to be a better choice.-

[Guest guest]

There is a huge difference between teaching signs of fertility made available by God every month to every woman (post-puberty and pre-menopausal), and teaching how to fly an airplane or make a nuclear weapon. EVERY woman in every culture and every age could have made the connection between wetness and fertility with just a little help from God. Is there any evidence that this connection was realized in a culture in the distant past?Steve Koob From: rbamer2@...Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:45:19 +0000Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF...

Hmmm... I don't know if I "buy" the terrorist plane analogy (but it is interesting). First of all, you can find exact instructions on how to carry out many of our methods on websites, apps and in books (/, your thoughts on making the info widely available on media such as these, even if nonmarried people can access these?)However, I appreciate yours and Les' comments and I guess there are at least 2 schools of thoughts then in the instruction of "inappropriate (for lack of a better term)" patients: (1) the purist school (as Les indicated, only those patients meeting certain qualifications -- married or engaged or the (2) "daniel in the lions den" school - you teach inappropriate patients hoping that you are going to ultimately convert them. Then there are all those patients who fall between the two extremes, and perhaps we could debate whether we should "throw our pearls before swine" or whether we should recognize the state of their spiritual journey, giving "milk" for those in early stages and more substantial spiritual food for those in later stages... Blessings, rebeccaSent via BlackBerry by AT & TFrom: " Dan O'C." <oconnor1124@...>

Sender:

Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 13:08:57 -0400< >Reply

Subject: Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP

for IVF...

Thank you all for your excellent input. I think for myself, since I'm operating on my own as solely a NFP instructor, and not with a practice, I feel it would be more prudent of me to refer this couple to the Creighton practitioner in my area, and give them my reasonings why. I commend you Dr. Peck, on how you handled your patient's situation. She obviously has a lot of trust in you and you have a great report with your patients. I however, would not have any prior relationship with this couple. I almost feel that yes, it is good that every woman know about her fertility, but consider this: say anyone who wants flight instruction, should be allowed to get the knowledge, however, if the terrorists who trained in Vero Beach, FL, would have told their instructors their intent was to fly an aircraft into the WTC and kill innocent lives, I don't think the instructors would have had any problem denying them instruction and reporting them to civil authorities (unfortunately killing innocent humans is sanctioned in IVF and abortion). So if a couple is upfront about their reason to use NFP is to just the get data and tune everything else out b/c they feel so desperate they are willing to sacrifice how many souls for the chance to get pregnant (never mind the odds that it has a high failure rate)! I think for professional integrity, referral to another form of NFP that does have the capability of helping infertile couples seems to be a better choice.

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[Guest guest]

Right- but this person wanted to learn specifically for IVF timing, not for general self knowledge, or fertility awareness, or planned use of NFP. I would decline teaching them for that purpose, though if they were open to learning for the other reasons, we could discuss it... Sandrock, CNMSent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP

for IVF...

Thank you all for your excellent input. I think for myself, since I'm operating on my own as solely a NFP instructor, and not with a practice, I feel it would be more prudent of me to refer this couple to the Creighton practitioner in my area, and give them my reasonings why. I commend you Dr. Peck, on how you handled your patient's situation. She obviously has a lot of trust in you and you have a great report with your patients. I however, would not have any prior relationship with this couple. I almost feel that yes, it is good that every woman know about her fertility, but consider this: say anyone who wants flight instruction, should be allowed to get the knowledge, however, if the terrorists who trained in Vero Beach, FL, would have told their instructors their intent was to fly an aircraft into the WTC and kill innocent lives, I don't think the instructors would have had any problem denying them instruction and reporting them to civil authorities (unfortunately killing innocent humans is sanctioned in IVF and abortion). So if a couple is upfront about their reason to use NFP is to just the get data and tune everything else out b/c they feel so desperate they are willing to sacrifice how many souls for the chance to get pregnant (never mind the odds that it has a high failure rate)! I think for professional integrity, referral to another form of NFP that does have the capability of helping infertile couples seems to be a better choice.

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[Guest guest]

I guess my experience in Kenya and Tanzania in the late 70’s and early 80’s would count as the distant past, Steve. When I introduced the Billings method there, I met many women to whom this was an old study. One Tanzanian midwife asked me how old the method was, and I told her about Billings starting in 1953… She said ‘you’re not telling us anything new, our grandmothers taught us this.” I said “great –now I can tell you why you know what your know” s. Hanna KlausFrom: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Steve KoobSent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:09 PM Subject: RE: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP for IVF... There is a huge difference between teaching signs of fertility made available by God every month to every woman (post-puberty and pre-menopausal), and teaching how to fly an airplane or make a nuclear weapon. EVERY woman in every culture and every age could have made the connection between wetness and fertility with just a little help from God. Is there any evidence that this connection was realized in a culture in the distant past?Steve Koob

[Guest guest]

Amen !Sent from my iPhoneOn May 11, 2012, at 9:01 PM, "cnmnancy@..." <cnmnancy@...> wrote:

Right- but this person wanted to learn specifically for IVF timing, not for general self knowledge, or fertility awareness, or planned use of NFP. I would decline teaching them for that purpose, though if they were open to learning for the other reasons, we could discuss it... Sandrock, CNMSent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Re: moral obligations with a couple seeking NFP

for IVF...

Thank you all for your excellent input. I think for myself, since I'm operating on my own as solely a NFP instructor, and not with a practice, I feel it would be more prudent of me to refer this couple to the Creighton practitioner in my area, and give them my reasonings why. I commend you Dr. Peck, on how you handled your patient's situation. She obviously has a lot of trust in you and you have a great report with your patients. I however, would not have any prior relationship with this couple. I almost feel that yes, it is good that every woman know about her fertility, but consider this: say anyone who wants flight instruction, should be allowed to get the knowledge, however, if the terrorists who trained in Vero Beach, FL, would have told their instructors their intent was to fly an aircraft into the WTC and kill innocent lives, I don't think the instructors would have had any problem denying them instruction and reporting them to civil authorities (unfortunately ki

lling innocent humans is sanctioned in IVF and abortion). So if a couple is upfront about their reason to use NFP is to just the get data and tune everything else out b/c they feel so desperate they are willing to sacrifice how many souls for the chance to get pregnant (never mind the odds that it has a high failure rate)! I think for professional integrity, referral to another form of NFP that does have the capability of helping infertile couples seems to be a better choice.

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