Re: Dirty 30 Produce Q

[Guest guest]

My two cents - I no longer put a lot of stock in the word " organic " .

From what I have been reading lately (I recommend " The Vegetarian

Myth " - wow!), there's so much soil health depletion just to name one

part of the equation, that it's pretty common to find organic food

that doesn't contain much nutrition. In part it seems (and I could be

wrong - others weigh in here who know lots more than I do) that the

larger the farming operation, the less apt it is to amend soil

correctly/sufficiently, and then do all the other things necessary to

yield the most healthful crops. Back to the recent discussion of

buying food from big box retail, I think part of the argument (or mine

anyway) stems from the thought that usually (I think) big box retail

buys from massive farming operations. They have to usually, to insure

the best pricing, uniformity, consistency, availability. While there

are increasing exceptions, I believe that industrialized agriculture

usually provides to big box retail/big grocery, and even if they can

now label produce, etc. as organic (due in part to watering down the

organic standards), this doesn't mean it's healthy. It may just mean

that your body won't have to fight off pesticides, which has value,

but I hope for so much more from my food. So, back to what I said the

other day being that there is no cheap food. If we can purchase our

food cheaply, and from places where we may not be able to track/learn

much about the sources/true framing practices, how does that benefit

us? If we agree that we want/need nutrient dense food, and we're not

producing it ourselves, (even without any thoughts toward the earth,

animal welfare, human welfare, spirituality) don't we need to know how

our food is being grown, and who by, and where? If buying carrots

cheaply means carrots without much nutritive value, are they still

cheap? If buying more expensive carrots means knowing who made them

and how (and if that translates to more nutrient density) doesn't that

ultimately make them less expensive? And like I said, that's just

looking at one aspect of food even though there are so many threads

that impact us and cost us. I am not saying I have the answers. I

have thoughts - maybe we eat less of some of the expensive parts of

our food chain, eat a little less in general, in some cases have

smaller families, learn more about organizing with communities to

encourage group gardening/putting foods by, eating lower on the food

chain, having a bit less of other things in order to spend more more

money on food, etc. A neighbor and I, for example, have been talking

about creating a garage for our block which would contain all the

tools one needs in multiples for the block. People check them out,

use them, return them. We share tools. So, instead of everyone

buying that lawnmower to cut our postage stamp-sized lawns, we have

two or three for the block. Perhaps potentially problematic, and

tough to get used to, but, this alone would free up space in

everyone's garages, would potentially build community, and free up

valuable financial resources which could be used for food, or whatever

else was needed. Just thoughts, and I'm sure you all have many of

your own different from mine. And, they're all good. This discussion

group is a big thoughtfest.

I guess I have said more like twenty-three cents worth here. Windy,

but this stuff intrigues me.

Rebekah

On Apr 30, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Carol Frisk wrote:

> Hello,

>

> I have been wondering for a while and have decided to ask, regarding

> the

> list of the highest concentration item of pesticide foods we have

> all seen.

> The list tells us which foods to never buy conventional and the same

> number

> of items they say is okay to buy conventional because pesticide

> residue is

> never very high. But we buy organic for more than just because of

> pesticide

> residue. Other factors that are important to us is that organic just

> tastes

> better. Then there is the GMO factor, which for most vegetables and

> fruits,

> I believe, are not sold GMO yet, but I could be wrong. But another

> critical

> factor is nutrient density. Conventional foods do not hold nearly the

> nutrients as organics using sustainability growling methods. (For

> those of

> you who are religious folk, I am guessing that is why God told us to

> farm in

> certain ways and to rotate crops and rest the land the 7th year for

> sustainability of soil an growing of nutrient dense foods.)

>

> So finally here is my question. The list of 10 " safe " foods might be

> fine

> in terms of pesticides, but are they still equivalent in terms of

> nutrients?

> Taste?

>

> Love to hear your ideas and input. I can not find any information

> regarding

> my question.

>

> Carol

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm with you Rebekah, got to count all of the costs, and it's not just about the

consumer, you have to go all the way back to the soil as you consider your

produce. Ideally your food should rebuild the soil, come from animals or plants

that were raised as close to nature's intentions as possible, sustain the

farmer so they can continue to farm sustainably and feed your body and spirit

the good things they need.

Also nutrient dense food is typically visibly so. When I buy hearts from

different animals, the quality of feed and condition of the animal's health is

written right in to it. The liver of a truly grass fed cow is deep purple and

does not smell funky. Whereas if that same animal had been raised on grains that

liver would be gray, stinky and likely have obvious signs of disease. I can also

tell when I look at the marrow in the bones I buy, healthy, grass fed animals

have radiantly white or pink marrow typically with no discoloration. But grain

fed animals will have all kinds of weird things going on in the marrow. Black or

blue around the margins, or the marrow will be like jello.

Nutrient dense green peppers will be deep, dark green, smooth and very

flavorful. Their wimpy counterparts will be unevenly colored, or a very light

green, the taste will be bland and watery.

Anyway, the point is, if one pays attention, you can learn to recognize nutrient

density with your eyes, nose and touch.

Organic as a label these days is pretty pathetic, basically the benefit is that

you're probably not getting GMO's and there are LESS chemicals on and in them.

Beyond that, you don't know if the operation is sustainable, or if it's from a

small farm or how they treat the animals or if the food is pastured, or how the

food is processed and preserved if it is.

So, when you can, know your farmer, when you can't, do your best!

Also I've never read Lierre's book, but I listened to a couple talks she gave on

it and I agree, powerful stuff! It helps when it's coming from someone who's

been there and done the vegetarian thing, especially the high soy vegetarianism.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your thoughts Rebekah and ! That is what I was thinking too.

I guess I brought it up because people are really onto the " safe " " unsafe "

product list and think if they follow those rules, they are on top of the

pack. But I too felt it was a little narrow sighted. I am sure the

producers are glad to make an impact, and I suppose it is a good place to

start, but there is so much more.

So how do you tell if organic produce is nutrient dense? (I am not going to

be able to grow it for myself this year. Each year I hope next year, but I

am never really well enough to do it just yet.) SO for those of us who can

not grow our own, how do we know it is high quality. I think the organic

produce I get at Cub or Byerlys is rather gross, and I really like most of

what we get at Lakewinds, but there it too comes in large boxes like Rebekah

was describing. During the summer, I plan to go directly to the farmers

market for most of my produce. SO how will I choose what is best there?

I find it easier to know my meat and milk farmers than it is to know my

produce farmers because there are so many varieties, and I doubt we will

give up bananas or grapefruit that is not grown locally, which is not

conducive to know my farmer in that case.

Carol