Selling Raw Milk in MN From Now On....

December 24, 2010

I echo Alvin's comments about consumer activism! The question remains: what

shape should this consumer activism take? Is it just a matter of buying any and

all raw milk available, without knowing the source? What would true activism

look like? We know what doesn't work.

I was only in attendance for part of the trial in Gaylord, but what I saw left

a burning image (187 of them to be exact) in my mind relative to how important

" looks " are to creating a picture of the farm food we want to create, defend and

sell. And for that matter, it's not only how our farms " look " to inspectors (and

customers), but, more importantly, how deeply we pursue state-of-the-art herd

health, true cleanliness (and appearance of cleanliness!) and, bottom line:

pathogen-free food production and handling.

In my own vet hospital, because I was wearing " holistic " on my sleeve, I

actually had to perform at a level higher than the best of the conventional

hospitals. I was always held to a higher standard. If a patient failed under a

holistic regime, it was AUTOMATICALLY my fault, whereas if the same case under

conventional plans failed, all you heard was " we did everything medically

possible " (of course, not really!), or it was " God's will " . Unfair! But, guess

what? It's REALITY in our world. PERCEPTION IS REALITY. Same with a dairy. If

someone gets sick, it is AUTOMATICALLY because of raw milk!

Mark McAffee is one example of a rowdy, tough Poster Boy for creation and

operation of a dairy that raises above the standard. He fights to prove his milk

to be safe. He wins his cases because he exceeds every dairy in his area, his

cows, barns and handling facilities are cleaner, safer, more-humane, better

smelling, more well-tested and so on. Above and beyond. We have many other

examples across the country that I could list.Two stellar local dairies are

CASTLE ROCK CREAMERY and CEDAR SUMMIT FARM.

One comment from Alvin that I differ on is the implication that just because

it's raw that it is safe. Nothing could be further from the truth, some small

farm raw milk could kill you. However, HEALTHY, clean, fresh raw milk remains

the safest animal food product on earth. We need to PROVE to the inspectors that

we can do that. There is a clear way to do that.

While in Pennsylvania last month, I joined an organization called CARE. They

have enlisted 45 raw dairies, and drawn in over 7000 customer/members of a raw

milk private buying club. It's working incredibly well! So far, after 7 years,

no outbreaks, no known illnesses, no sick herds, and great success.

One vital aspect of their protocol that I believe will ensure sustainability and

safety to any similar group is that they have hired their own inspectors to make

sure every single dairy measures up to the standards of quality and cleanliness

to produce wholesome and delicious milk. Pass the test or you are out of the

club. I can't imagine our Food Freedom plan working for raw milk unless we adopt

a similar plan. We had our chance to shine, but then we were knocked to the

ground by the government. Due to how the facts played out in the case, the judge

will be hailed by many as a wise and prudent man. It will take years to recover

from the round we let them win.

The FARM TO CONSUMER LEGAL DEFENSE FUND has published a $6 booklet that provides

everything necessary to outline the exact details for this kind of safe and

wholesome production. Personally, I would not be willing to endorse or support a

local dairy unwilling to comply with these simple, clear and common sensical

guidelines. I see no other way to proceed as we move forward.

Onward and Upward!

Will Winter

December 24, 2010

The key to our new approach to sourcing raw milk is ownership, not purchase. In

the future we will own the animals that produce our food. We will support the

standards that we demand with no grain at all, but 100$ grass-fed and

supplemented minerals as well. This was an option for the Hartmanns this summer

and they chose to follow their own path of demanding the right to peddle their

own production. The right of ownership is much more simple and it is still

possible to make this work with Hartmann's inventory of butter and cheese. They

will likely appeal the recent judgment and continue the fight to bring their

production to the big city, but it still involves the " sale " of raw dairy and

that will always be a major obstacle. 2011 will see a major breakthrough in

access to our chosen food supplies IF we support the options that include

ownership of our food sources and responsibility for our own health and well

being. I agree that we need to follow a higher standard of health protocol than

conventional dairies and that is justified for the farmer by providing a fair

value for the work involved in getting it done. We had nearly 1000 members of

Trad Foods MN Warehouse along with another 100 or more families that we serviced

with a weekly delivery option. I suggest that we'll see that double during the

first half of 2011 if we just stay the course and use the power of information

to move forward past the propaganda of the cheap food marketing campaign. Once

again, I recommend FOODMATTERS.TV for positive information regarding your health

and well being. The interviews with Charlotte Gerson are extremely accurate with

regard to curing diabetes and cancer. Don't wait. Plan to see Salatin and

McAffee in January when the introduction to the Raw Milk Symposium comes to

Macalester College. DO IT FOR YOU this Christmas Season and plan to be more

informed this New Year. Be well, Alvin

>

> I echo Alvin's comments about consumer activism!

December 25, 2010

Hi Will,

What would you like to see (personally and professionally and as a drinker of

raw dairy) in every dairy to be clean, efficient and safe?

I also do not agree with Alvins statement that raw is safe just because it is

raw. And that " idea " does scare me. People have gotten sick, not just here but

everywhere with class A milking facilities as well as hand milking. That is not

an attack on you Alvin, just a matter I doubt we will ever agree upon and I did

bring it up when I talked with you at the warehouse a couple of weeks back.

My milk is now being judged by the public and my family along with Hartmans

because they were found to be bad so all raw is bad. I have not had any

problems with mine nor has the state come around but it is only a matter of

time. I do not like this mentality but I do understand where it comes from and

want to go beyond it.

This year I will be milking goats, cow(s), and sheep. All three have different

milkers and diet requirements of course. What would you recommend as far as

facilities, equipment, record keeping, etc., to be above and beyond in our state

at this time? Right now I am at a point where I am building and

expanding/updating the farm so it is a perfect time to get going in the right

direction in an attempt to be ahead of the game.

My customers are share holders or pet milk buyers so I don't have quite the same

legal ties as the Hartmans did. However, that won't matter if the state ever

comes after milk products with a vengence.

Just wanting ideas here to implement into the farm for future use and battles!

The only income I have is from the farm products (dairy, animals, and veggies)

so I want to try and get as far ahead of any potential problems as possible.

There is no way I can afford a fight or shut down of any sort. And yes, joined

the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund. Still, I would like local input as

much as possible.

Anyone who has ideas or comments is more than welcome to pass them along too

please.

December 25, 2010

>

> Hi Will,

>

> What would you like to see (personally and professionally and as a drinker of

raw dairy) in every dairy to be clean, efficient and safe?

TEST YOUR MILK! I want some science to help me prove to people that the milk is

clean. Until all dairies regularly do that, I really do not see much else that

will matter when the state come knocking at your door.

December 25, 2010

Will,

Thank you for saying what I have been wanting to say for some time but have held

back. If we really want to prove that raw milk is the best and safe we do have

to have higher standers.

Kimi

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December 25, 2010

Here's a summary of the basic mandatory safety tests for any and all small

dairies. This is if we ever intend to get ourselves out of the horrible muck we

are all in. This is how Mark McAfee and hundreds of others did it. We have to be

extremely proactive, we have to be above and beyond the norm. When you are in

any food business, you can't afford one bad day!

When you are in the raw dairy business you are guilty until proven innocent.

What follows below is the basis of a courtroom-proven method to protect

yourself. The FTCLDF possesses the best federal litigators in Washington, DC,

but in our hostile culture, the whole lot of them cannot successfully defend a

single client who failed to protect himself.

And, BTW, these testing protocols (and farm improvements) must be subsidized by

the consumers, never the farmer! Personally, I'm tired of farmers (for whatever

reason) charging only a few bucks per gallon for untested milk. What other

corners did they cut, we wonder? We also have tolerated a few raw milk

customers whining (for a variety of reasons) about the current prices of raw

milk. Given all the current costs for replacement heifers, feed, supplements,

labor, proper testing, equipment, and other factors, farmers in our area should

be charging $12-14/gallon for pure, wholesome, grass-based, bottled, organic raw

milk, and the same math applies across the board for derivation of a sustainable

price for all raw dairy products. These numbers come from amassing data from

WAPF-associated dairies across the country. We are now beginning to see the true

cost of raw milk done on the cheap. Now proven to be completely indefensible.

It's 2011 in America, folks. To win this fight, all our raw dairy farms must not

only be proven safe, but they must appear clean, neat and beautiful, as must the

entire herd. The farm must be transparent, open for inspection by customers as

well as by our own independent inspectors (see the CARE protocol). If the

farmers (and processors) themselves are healthy, rested and happy, that doesn't

hurt either!

Here's the summary.

Whether you are a customer or a producer, be sure to pick up the RAW MILK

PRODUCTION HANDBOOK from the FTCLDF.

1) es Disease- 100% of the herd should test negative.

2) TB- 100% negative.

3) Brucellosis. (Tim Wightman recommends vaccinating all heifers, I recommend a

strong

mineral program as a preventative plan). Nevertheless, the herd should be

Brucella-free.

4) Somatic Cell Count- (white blood cells) Must remain below 300,000 on a

yearly average.

5) Plate Count --- (bacteria in the milk). should be less than 10,000 p/ml and

ideally < 1000.

6) Coliform Count ----Less than 10 p/ml

7) PI Count (cold temperature equipment bacteria) less than 50,000 p/ml

8) Monthly Pathogen tests- Of all the major deadly pathogens- Test for 6

consecutive months, then quarterly as long as everything remains negative.

9) Monthly Bulk Tank Cultures (if there is a bulk tank)- For mastitis,

equipment, and environmental bacteria.

10) Mastitis Type Testing - On all questionable quarters. Wightman recommends

culling all

Staph a. cows.

11) Milking System Testing- Every 6 months by a a professional in the industry.

Questions, Comments, Brickbats?

Will Winter

December 26, 2010

Thanks Will!

Most of this is already done.

I also test for CAE so I know what is going on in my herd.

Question: Should the test results by published each day/week/month via web post

or something to show the public what is in there or not in there so to speak? I

guess this is more of an opinion type of thing.

I don't like someone else (outside who knows nothing about my personal farm)

telling me that my milk prices or other farm product prices are too low and must

be cutting corners someplace. I do take into consideration all equipment bought

(most has been used and refurbished by me) and put that on a depreciation

schedule, cost of animal, cost of keeping animal, my labor cost, feed, pasture

and barn use cost, vet as needed, misc. supplies, etc., etc. Just my opinon

here.

At farmers markets I hear quite often that veggies are too high and that grocery

stores are cheaper, then from others I hear that food prices are too low as sold

by us farmers. Ya just can't win at times! I do understand where you are

coming from tho and appreciate that you know what is involved in getting set up

and doing the work, most out there do not have a clue to that part of the

farming.

I do keep records and have a business background to keep things in order--or at

least try to! I don't cut corners and keep learning and adding upgrades to all

parts of the farm from the dairy aspect to the meat and fiber animals to the 10

acres of veggies and herbs being planted. Not always easy but overall a very

happy way of life.

Thanks!

December 26, 2010

Before abandoning the Hartmanns because they chose NOT to follow a

SUCK-UP-TO-THE-STATE protocol, we'd all do well to keep the big picture

in focus. If we avoid myopia, we'll understand that no matter how

perfectly a dairy follows such a protocol, they will be in danger, and

no amount of operational perfection will eliminate that danger.

In reading Judge 's order/memo, one thing was obvious. Like judges

and lawyers generally, he's clearly biased in favor of State

administrative agencies. There is ample evidence that State agencies

like the MDA / MDH are being bribed by the fed's. The supreme Court has

ruled that such bribery is legal. Even if it's legal, such bribery skews

the admissibility of expert evidence. The basic DNA evidence and other

technical data presented by the State in MDA v. Hartmann v. CFC is

unreliable, because bribing witnesses ALWAYS tends to skew testimony.

The evidence is overwhelming that the fed's are in bed with Big Agra,

and Big Agra wants all of us addicted to their eugenics food. Because of

the judge's bias, and the fact that these State agencies are essentially

working for Big Agra, this was essentially a kangaroo trial. No matter

how perfect a dairy's operational protocols are, it is in danger of the

same kind of biased prosecution. If Mark McAfee is successful in court,

it's probably because he's in a State whose judiciary is not as corrupt

as Minnesota's.

If you want to do something about these problems, start by aiming at

something higher than just being another special interest group. This

disease is much more systemic, pervasive, and evil than merely societal

bias with respect to raw and traditional foods.

Porter

December 26, 2010

Great post ....hear ye hear ye

" Claude Leonard " <clauleo2@...> wrote:

>Before abandoning the Hartmanns because they chose NOT to follow a

>SUCK-UP-TO-THE-STATE protocol, we'd all do well to keep the big picture

>

>in focus. If we avoid myopia, we'll understand that no matter how

>perfectly a dairy follows such a protocol, they will be in danger, and

>no amount of operational perfection will eliminate that danger.

>

>In reading Judge 's order/memo, one thing was obvious. Like judges

>

>and lawyers generally, he's clearly biased in favor of State

>administrative agencies. There is ample evidence that State agencies

>like the MDA / MDH are being bribed by the fed's. The supreme Court has

>

>ruled that such bribery is legal. Even if it's legal, such bribery

>skews

>the admissibility of expert evidence. The basic DNA evidence and other

>technical data presented by the State in MDA v. Hartmann v. CFC is

>unreliable, because bribing witnesses ALWAYS tends to skew testimony.

>The evidence is overwhelming that the fed's are in bed with Big Agra,

>and Big Agra wants all of us addicted to their eugenics food. Because

>of

>the judge's bias, and the fact that these State agencies are

>essentially

>working for Big Agra, this was essentially a kangaroo trial. No matter

>how perfect a dairy's operational protocols are, it is in danger of the

>

>same kind of biased prosecution. If Mark McAfee is successful in court,

>

>it's probably because he's in a State whose judiciary is not as corrupt

>

>as Minnesota's.

>

>If you want to do something about these problems, start by aiming at

>something higher than just being another special interest group. This

>disease is much more systemic, pervasive, and evil than merely societal

>

>bias with respect to raw and traditional foods.

>

> Porter

>

December 26, 2010

The message of Hanukkah is highly relevant here. An invading or intrusive

group (pasteurization laws etc w/ history of ~ 50-60 years) seeks to impose

its beliefs and approaches on an established group (millenia of natural with

the seasons living as an example). The small group of thoughtful, committed

citizens prevails, but *only because it remains thoughtful and committed.*

Tim Wightman gave a presentation at the Chapter Leaders' session the Monday

following the conference, presented these points to consider:

overall impression

cows -- do they have a place to lie down? Cows need to be able to lie down,

presumably to chew even better. If they are muddy, is it appropriate to

the season (ie mud in spring, or manure in what should be a relatively dry

season?)

Do the cows have happy lines? Do they glisten (except in winter), have good

color distinction, level backs with flat hair? Do they look at you with

their ears (except for Brahmans, whose ears don't stand up.) Are they

contented (good) or spooky (not good)? The grass length should pretty much

cover the cows' hooves. There should be bedding for them to lie down on

especially in the winter, if they're in stalls or not out grazing.

other animals? Do they intermingle by choice or because it's crowded?

Poultry poop on straw? Definitely not good. Is the intermingling , if it

exists, peaceful coexistence with lots of space or (preferably not)

intrusion and annoyance?

How do the cats look? Healthy with shiny coats and clear eyes, friendly,

indicates a healthy place.

Are there birds? Birds love confinement operations, because there's lots of

gnarly stuff to pick out of the manure (birds' job). If there are too many

birds, it's because the cats are sick and the birds have taken over. Some

birds to keep insects down are good; a scene out of Hitchcock's The Birds

is ..... Cobwebs harbor flies, so better they should be minimal.

What's the feel of the farm? Busy but peaceful is good. There should be a

clean smell to the manure -- the kind that evokes good memories and

contentment to be around animals. Strong ammonia smell indicates rot, not

compost healthy decomposition. The feed should be covered and smell fresh;

if it smells like salami, it's putrefying.

The milking parlor should be clean, without spilled grain or droppings

inviting natural clean-up crews. The milk house equipment should be clean,

with tubing clear or black (not orange), and replaced yearly. Glass should

be clear w/o dust build up, likewise windows sills (which preferably aren't

horizontal to aid catching dust). Is equipment up on blocks so the floor

can be kept clean easily.

Milk from cows that get too much protein will have a high MUN or Milk Urea

Nitrogen count (?). 12-13 is apparently OK. Excess protein gives a bad

taste, most likely to happen with cows that go suddenly into too lush a

pasture.

A common argument is that CAFO meat or milk is " cheaper " . That's so only

because the real costs are " externalized " -- yes that's the official term.

The cost of transporting the feed to the cows, the fertilizer (petroleum

based) to grow the grain elsewhere, the animals to a next place for

" finishing " or a different phase of their development or slaughter, the

costs for moving equipment and other stuff around, including cleanup, is

rarely reckoned into the total cost. We the taxpayers pick up the tab for

the supposedly cheap cost of fuel (except when our young folk get shipped

off to western Asia to war leaving another generation of families and lives

disrupted).

We the taxpayers pick up the tab for maintaining the roads, for the collapse

of rural communities because industrial farming squeezes out people (in many

ways), for the environmental damage and cleanup -- if it's done, for the

damage to our health (an insult made even worse when the forces that allow

such damage then lay the burden of paying for the healing it on us too,

while limiting the modalities we're allowed to use). There's more but you

get the idea.

$5-8 dollars a gallon is an honest cost. It might be a stretch for us

individually but it puts the costs up front, doesn't hide them, nor foist

them off elsewhere. Another " externalized " cost is the minimally paid

(slave) labor that ends up making products for us to buy cheap.

Tim's comments, summarized above, also included the caveat that we shouldn't

be too hard on the producer, that we need to recognize that it's in the

interest of the producer to keep the place as healthy and tidy as possible.

It's also realistic to acknowledge that our own homes aren't always

spotless, waiting for the photographer and white glove test.

Charlie's words from above are worth repeating: If you want to do something

about these problems, start by aiming at

something higher than just being another special interest group.

This disease is much more systemic, pervasive, and evil than merely

societal bias with respect to raw and traditional foods.

We have an opportunity to bring light out of darkness. KL

On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Claude Leonard <clauleo2@...>wrote:

> Before abandoning the Hartmanns because they chose NOT to follow a

> SUCK-UP-TO-THE-STATE protocol, we'd all do well to keep the big picture

> in focus. If we avoid myopia, we'll understand that no matter how

> perfectly a dairy follows such a protocol, they will be in danger, and

> no amount of operational perfection will eliminate that danger.

>

> In reading Judge 's order/memo, one thing was obvious. Like judges

> and lawyers generally, he's clearly biased in favor of State

> administrative agencies. There is ample evidence that State agencies

> like the MDA / MDH are being bribed by the fed's. The supreme Court has

> ruled that such bribery is legal. Even if it's legal, such bribery skews

> the admissibility of expert evidence. The basic DNA evidence and other

> technical data presented by the State in MDA v. Hartmann v. CFC is

> unreliable, because bribing witnesses ALWAYS tends to skew testimony.

> The evidence is overwhelming that the fed's are in bed with Big Agra,

> and Big Agra wants all of us addicted to their eugenics food. Because of

> the judge's bias, and the fact that these State agencies are essentially

> working for Big Agra, this was essentially a kangaroo trial. No matter

> how perfect a dairy's operational protocols are, it is in danger of the

> same kind of biased prosecution. If Mark McAfee is successful in court,

> it's probably because he's in a State whose judiciary is not as corrupt

> as Minnesota's.

>

> If you want to do something about these problems, start by aiming at

> something higher than just being another special interest group. This

> disease is much more systemic, pervasive, and evil than merely societal

> bias with respect to raw and traditional foods.

>

> Porter

>

December 26, 2010

I realize I'm new here but rather than assuming all judges and lawyers are

(generally) biased in favor of state agencies how about operating under the

assumption that everyone doesn't have a nefarious purpose.

Most people, educated or otherwise, believe wholeheartedly that the MDA, FDA,

CDC, whatever, is based on sound research and the best interests of the public.

Lawyers and judges are no different. (In full dislosure, I'm an intellectual

property lawyer who has been trying to live in a whole foods way with my

family).

Everyone has succumbed to the food myths perpetrated by all the acronym

organizations-even lawyers and other highly educated people like doctors and

scientists. If I had to guess, I'd say the " over educated " are less likely to

follow their gut (So to speak!) and be more influenced by statistics and " the

research " -I've certainly found fewer people who eat as I do in my professional

circles.

e.

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Re: Selling Raw Milk in MN From Now On....