Re: spanking in schools....

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

My son is mainstreamed in kindergarden in public school here in Northern Alabama. I have had this problem within another school district last year which is why I moved to another school district. As you can imagine, I am extremely frustrated. It seems people in this area are very knowlegable about "autism" but not specifically "asperger's". I have a real fight on my hands here, and the officials are being pretty nasty about the whole thing. I am reporting them to the proper authorities. I have always said, "no pattling" in every IEP and behavior meeting. Unfortunately, they disagree, and it is all of them against me, the single mother. I have had to get doctors involved and the whole nine yards. I need some serious help, and am just beginning to learn where to go from here. My boys' diagnosis are still fairly new. (diagnosed last Novemeber), and I have had challenges every where I've turned....

Beth

spanking in schools....

In a message dated 11/8/04 9:58:44 PM Central Standard Time, Autism and Aspergers Treatment writes:

Sorry, but I am bit stunned. Are you saying that inthe USA a school can adminster physical harm to achild with parents consent??? I agree with you. INEVER hit my child (although I have been told often(by very misguided people who just see him as naughtyand are ignorant about Aspergers) that that is what heneeds! I believe that SOME, VERY FEW states, in the USA here, not in the STATE that I live in, the school can administer a swat to the child, on the bottom, I believe. I do not think that many schools still do this, and most that have the allowance by laaw do not even do this. However, they could if they wanted. Therefore some of the private schools, and maybe even those with students that are in a juvenile detention school perhaps, still do spank if needed, but sometimes that is rare. And again, this is only in schools in STATES where it is legal. HOWEVER, I am told that rarely does this happen, even though it is not illegal if they spank. I believe that some of the schools that I have been in that spanked, when I lived in South Carolina in the 1980s, were private schools, and they administered this on rare occassions and they gave one swat, with a teacher and a staff member present , to make sure it was witnessed and they also had a letter on ! hand by the parent that this could be done if and when needed. It was never abuse and never overdone. Anyway, that is the scoop. As for the person who wrote the posting on this, and started you and I both wondering and conversing about this, I have no clue who that is and what she could tell us further on this subject. I get this list in digest and so get mail late, but perhaps she is or has responded so we can understand?? !!!! in IL :_) --

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[Guest guest]

Hi Beth,

>>My son is mainstreamed in kindergarden in public school here in Northern

>>Alabama. I have had this problem within another school district last year

>>which is why I moved to another school district. As you can imagine, I am

>>extremely frustrated. It seems people in this area are very knowlegable

>>about " autism " but not specifically " asperger's " .<<

It strikes me that they are not knowledgable about autism at all, since

Asperger's is an autistic spectrum disorder. Despite having a separate entry

in DSM, it is not a separate disorder. And if they know anything about

autism, they would know that physical punishment is probably the most

counter-productive thing they could be doing.

You have a child who does not understand the rules of society (because they

are not explicit) and is struggling to make sense of the world. Then you

teach him/her that it is OK to hit someone if that person does something

which you don't like, by hitting him - and he probably has no idea of what

he has done wrong either. So you are going to get a child who will hit every

time they are upset, or when someone invades their personal space, or

overloads their senses or whatever.

Those with ASD have enough difficulty, as they generally cannot identify

their emotions and, because it is a social and communication disorder, do

not know how to communicate their emotions other than by their 'behaviour'.

The school needs to learn not to take his 'behaviour' personally - he does

not *intend* to hurt, be disobedient (he may have no concept of rude or

naughty), be non-cooperative etc etc. That is just their perception of him

and it is WRONG.

People with ASD need to be told what to do, not what not to do. So he needs

positive reinforcement every time he does something right, and they need to

ignore the negative behaviour. And they must never take away any reward he

has earned for good behaviour, or he will decide that it isn't worth doing.

Rewards are best if they are tangible things like stars on a chart, leading

to a prize of something he wants (lego was a good one for my son).

Intangible things like being told he is a good boy are fairly meaningless -

he most likely won't have the concept of 'good' or 'bad' anyway.

And I am horrified that physical punishment is still allowed in some of your

schools. Here in the UK it has been illegal for a number of years.

in England

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for your comments> You have no idea how your words have empowered me.

Beth

Re: spanking in schools....

Hi Beth,>>My son is mainstreamed in kindergarden in public school here in Northern >>Alabama. I have had this problem within another school district last year >>which is why I moved to another school district. As you can imagine, I am >>extremely frustrated. It seems people in this area are very knowlegable >>about "autism" but not specifically "asperger's".<<It strikes me that they are not knowledgable about autism at all, since Asperger's is an autistic spectrum disorder. Despite having a separate entry in DSM, it is not a separate disorder. And if they know anything about autism, they would know that physical punishment is probably the most counter-productive thing they could be doing.You have a child who does not understand the rules of society (because they are not explicit) and is struggling to make sense of the world. Then you teach him/her that it is OK to hit someone if that person does something which you don't like, by hitting him - and he probably has no idea of what he has done wrong either. So you are going to get a child who will hit every time they are upset, or when someone invades their personal space, or overloads their senses or whatever.Those with ASD have enough difficulty, as they generally cannot identify their emotions and, because it is a social and communication disorder, do not know how to communicate their emotions other than by their 'behaviour'.The school needs to learn not to take his 'behaviour' personally - he does not *intend* to hurt, be disobedient (he may have no concept of rude or naughty), be non-cooperative etc etc. That is just their perception of him and it is WRONG.People with ASD need to be told what to do, not what not to do. So he needs positive reinforcement every time he does something right, and they need to ignore the negative behaviour. And they must never take away any reward he has earned for good behaviour, or he will decide that it isn't worth doing. Rewards are best if they are tangible things like stars on a chart, leading to a prize of something he wants (lego was a good one for my son). Intangible things like being told he is a good boy are fairly meaningless - he most likely won't have the concept of 'good' or 'bad' anyway.And I am horrified that physical punishment is still allowed in some of your schools. Here in the UK it has been illegal for a number of years. in England --

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[Guest guest]

GOOD FOR YOU CAROLYN!

Lesley

Hong Kong

--- Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> Yes, I think you have it exactly. They were

> trying to

> break Marty's spirit, exactly. They had one program

> called

> " compliance training " where they made him stand up

> and sit

> down for hours on end. There would be a chair, and

> the

> " trainer " would give the command, " Stand up! " Of

> course

> Marty wouldn't do it, and it was NOT because he did

> not

> understand the command, so two big guys, one on each

> side of

> him would jerk him up. Then the trainer would say,

> " Sit

> down! " and of course Marty would not sit, again NOT

> because

> he did not understand the command, so then the same

> two

> goons would force him into his chair. They did this

> for

> hours each day until all were exhausted, and Marty's

> spirit

> never did break. I was kind of proud of him

> actually.

>

> This bright idea was developed by a PhD here

> locally,

> who is quite well known in the behavioral management

> world,

> Siegfried Engelmann. I didn't ever like the guy

> myself, he

> was just to loud and cocky to me. He has lots of

> books out,

> don't know if he is still living or not. But that is

> the way

> it was, and I don't know if much has really changed.

> It

> always seemed to me like Marty was a guinea pig for

> them to

> experiment on.

>

> All along I knew they were messed up, just did

> not feel

> they knew what they were doing. But was always

> prompted to

> consider who was I, just a mother with my motherly

> instincts. But then I went to college, and I got the

> same

> degrees they have, and you know what I found. They

> WERE

> nuts! haha

>

> So all I am saying is: Mothers, you have

> instincts, and

> you need to use them. Whenever you feel in your

> heart that

> something is wrong, then follow your heart. Most of

> the time

> I think you will be right, and " they " will be wrong.

> I

> believe you have been given authority and wisdom

> from God

> Himself, who sent your child expressly to you, that

> will not

> let you down.

>

> Like with me, Love conquered all! Boy, just try

> to tell

> those PhDs about Love. haha. I actually had a due

> process

> hearing, and told them I wanted a program operated

> on Love.

> They had all the expert witnesses, etc., and I am

> quite sure

> they thought I was crazy, but that was all I wanted.

> Love,

> Patience, Gentleness, Kindness, Long Suffering,

> Faith, etc.

> That is what I have done actually with Marty, and he

> is fine

> now. Has his problems to deal with, but he is a

> sweetheart.

> They do not teach Love in PhD school, I know because

> I went

> there, got a Masters.

>

> Is why I say, Love to you all! I mean it! It is

> the

> most Powerful force in the Universe, I have applied

> it, and

> I have proven it. My son was really awful, people

> would be

> amazed how awful he got from their programs, was

> quite

> violent and out of control, but Love tamed him, and

> now he

> is as sweet as can be!

>

> Carolyn

>

>

> Re: spanking in

> schools....

>

>

> Carolyn, it never ceases to amaze me the stuff they

> did with

> Marty and that it never occured to him to not do it

> when it

> didn't work. That sounds more like an attempt to

> break one's

> spirit than an attempt to " train " . For goodness

> sakes a

> spank would have been less cruel and I am not one

> who

> endorses spanking by any means!

>

>

>

>

> Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

> Hi and ,

>

> As to this subject of spanking in school, I am

> against

> it. When my son, Marty, who is 40 years old now,

> went to

> school there was a big movement on about " corporal

> punishment, " meaning hitting on the bottom with a

> hand by

> one in authority. They never did want to refer to it

> as

> spanking, but insisted instead that if a parent did

> it that

> they were beating the child.

>

> So what they did instead, was to pinch the

> child on

> his arm and the back of his neck, as they did my son

> Marty,

> squirt him in the face with a squirt bottle, and

> shout NO!

> in his face! And who knows what all, since I wasn't

> there to

> see everything, and he could not tell me when he

> came home

> since he could not talk. What they believed then is

> that

> anything that could be done to " reinforce " a

> command, that

> did not leave bruises was o.k. My mom used to pull

> my hair

> real hard when I was a kid, and I am telling you,

> that made

> me mind her. But I have never done any of these mean

> things

> to any of my kids, or grandkids. All I have ever

> done is to

> threaten to smack them on the bottom if they don't

> mind me.

>

> Like my little grandson, . He is 4 years

> old and

> today we went to the Goodwill and looked around for

> awhile.

> Well he was tired so he climbed into a big bin of

> stuffed

> animals, and planned to take a nap there. I told him

> to get

> out of it several times because I was leaving, but

> he did

> not budge. So finally, when I knew the warnings were

> over,

> four or five of them, " get out of there, we

> are

> leaving, " and he refused to budge, I rushed over to

> him with

> my hand out ready to smack his butt, and out of the

> bin he

> popped! And fell asleep on the way home, poor kid.

>

> I agree, nobody has a right to spank our kids

> at

> school, or pinch them, or anything else, or use a

> plywood

> time out booth either, which my son had for awhile.

> And they

> wonder why his anti social behavior escalated! At

> least with

> a spank on the bottom from a parent, the child

> understands

> that if he does not obey a certain order, in a

> certain time,

>

=== message truncated ===

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[Guest guest]

GOOD FOR YOU CAROLYN!

Lesley

Hong Kong

--- Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> Yes, I think you have it exactly. They were

> trying to

> break Marty's spirit, exactly. They had one program

> called

> " compliance training " where they made him stand up

> and sit

> down for hours on end. There would be a chair, and

> the

> " trainer " would give the command, " Stand up! " Of

> course

> Marty wouldn't do it, and it was NOT because he did

> not

> understand the command, so two big guys, one on each

> side of

> him would jerk him up. Then the trainer would say,

> " Sit

> down! " and of course Marty would not sit, again NOT

> because

> he did not understand the command, so then the same

> two

> goons would force him into his chair. They did this

> for

> hours each day until all were exhausted, and Marty's

> spirit

> never did break. I was kind of proud of him

> actually.

>

> This bright idea was developed by a PhD here

> locally,

> who is quite well known in the behavioral management

> world,

> Siegfried Engelmann. I didn't ever like the guy

> myself, he

> was just to loud and cocky to me. He has lots of

> books out,

> don't know if he is still living or not. But that is

> the way

> it was, and I don't know if much has really changed.

> It

> always seemed to me like Marty was a guinea pig for

> them to

> experiment on.

>

> All along I knew they were messed up, just did

> not feel

> they knew what they were doing. But was always

> prompted to

> consider who was I, just a mother with my motherly

> instincts. But then I went to college, and I got the

> same

> degrees they have, and you know what I found. They

> WERE

> nuts! haha

>

> So all I am saying is: Mothers, you have

> instincts, and

> you need to use them. Whenever you feel in your

> heart that

> something is wrong, then follow your heart. Most of

> the time

> I think you will be right, and " they " will be wrong.

> I

> believe you have been given authority and wisdom

> from God

> Himself, who sent your child expressly to you, that

> will not

> let you down.

>

> Like with me, Love conquered all! Boy, just try

> to tell

> those PhDs about Love. haha. I actually had a due

> process

> hearing, and told them I wanted a program operated

> on Love.

> They had all the expert witnesses, etc., and I am

> quite sure

> they thought I was crazy, but that was all I wanted.

> Love,

> Patience, Gentleness, Kindness, Long Suffering,

> Faith, etc.

> That is what I have done actually with Marty, and he

> is fine

> now. Has his problems to deal with, but he is a

> sweetheart.

> They do not teach Love in PhD school, I know because

> I went

> there, got a Masters.

>

> Is why I say, Love to you all! I mean it! It is

> the

> most Powerful force in the Universe, I have applied

> it, and

> I have proven it. My son was really awful, people

> would be

> amazed how awful he got from their programs, was

> quite

> violent and out of control, but Love tamed him, and

> now he

> is as sweet as can be!

>

> Carolyn

>

>

> Re: spanking in

> schools....

>

>

> Carolyn, it never ceases to amaze me the stuff they

> did with

> Marty and that it never occured to him to not do it

> when it

> didn't work. That sounds more like an attempt to

> break one's

> spirit than an attempt to " train " . For goodness

> sakes a

> spank would have been less cruel and I am not one

> who

> endorses spanking by any means!

>

>

>

>

> Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

> Hi and ,

>

> As to this subject of spanking in school, I am

> against

> it. When my son, Marty, who is 40 years old now,

> went to

> school there was a big movement on about " corporal

> punishment, " meaning hitting on the bottom with a

> hand by

> one in authority. They never did want to refer to it

> as

> spanking, but insisted instead that if a parent did

> it that

> they were beating the child.

>

> So what they did instead, was to pinch the

> child on

> his arm and the back of his neck, as they did my son

> Marty,

> squirt him in the face with a squirt bottle, and

> shout NO!

> in his face! And who knows what all, since I wasn't

> there to

> see everything, and he could not tell me when he

> came home

> since he could not talk. What they believed then is

> that

> anything that could be done to " reinforce " a

> command, that

> did not leave bruises was o.k. My mom used to pull

> my hair

> real hard when I was a kid, and I am telling you,

> that made

> me mind her. But I have never done any of these mean

> things

> to any of my kids, or grandkids. All I have ever

> done is to

> threaten to smack them on the bottom if they don't

> mind me.

>

> Like my little grandson, . He is 4 years

> old and

> today we went to the Goodwill and looked around for

> awhile.

> Well he was tired so he climbed into a big bin of

> stuffed

> animals, and planned to take a nap there. I told him

> to get

> out of it several times because I was leaving, but

> he did

> not budge. So finally, when I knew the warnings were

> over,

> four or five of them, " get out of there, we

> are

> leaving, " and he refused to budge, I rushed over to

> him with

> my hand out ready to smack his butt, and out of the

> bin he

> popped! And fell asleep on the way home, poor kid.

>

> I agree, nobody has a right to spank our kids

> at

> school, or pinch them, or anything else, or use a

> plywood

> time out booth either, which my son had for awhile.

> And they

> wonder why his anti social behavior escalated! At

> least with

> a spank on the bottom from a parent, the child

> understands

> that if he does not obey a certain order, in a

> certain time,

>

=== message truncated ===

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