Re: Does the size and height of scoby matter in brewing?

[Guest guest]

Evening Idy

I thought someone would have responded to your info by now. Maybe

they have, I often find responses to messages I haven't received.

Anyway I have found no significant difference in the fermentation

time of Kombucha based on size of the container or the size of the

culture. I've used a culture from a gallon jar in a 6.5 gallon pail

and had a culture over an inch in on of my 2.5 gallon crocks. All are

to my taste with in a day of each other.

As for thickness of the culture Roussin states in " Analyses

of Kombucha Ferments " page 22, " The polysaccharide colony deserves

comment at this stage. Polysaccharide colonies can be described as

thin, white or in varying degrees of opacity, from translucent to

dense white. It appears that there is no direct correlation between

how thick the polysaccharide colony is or how robustly it grows and

the constituents that are produced. "

On the other hand the amount of starter tea you use will. If you use

2/3 starter to 1/3 sweet tea the ferment will be ready in about 3 days.

I really have no idea how long extra SCOBY can be stored. Maybe

Margret can answer this one. I know a year plus is okay. Remember

you have to add starter tea at intervals as the stored SCOBY will use

up the liquid in the storage container.

Cargo holes in most commercial flights are no temperature controlled

so can get quite cold. A lot would depend on the length of the

flight. I think if you lined a small box with 1/2 inch Styrofoam and

place the SCOBY & starter tea with in you should be safe for over seas flights.

Bill

>I know, it's me again! :-) Bear with me as I ask another question.

>Does the size of the scoby make a difference in fermenting time? Will

>a bigger scoby hasten the brewing? I know for both milk and water

>kefir, the amount of grains to liquid ratio determines how quick it

>is done. But a faster kefir fermentation won't have as many good

>microflora compared to a longer ferment.

>

>So from your experience, if I have a plate size scoby vs. a pancake

>size scoby in identical gallon jars, does that mean that the plate

>size scoby will make a faster brew? Will a faster brew mean lesser

>vitamins and microflora? How come some people put a couple scobies in

>their brewing vessels? Will a thin scoby compared to a thicker scoby

>make different brews, given the same size and brewing conditions?

>What kind of difference do you notice?

>

>Another question. From my understanding, we can store extra scobies

>in kombucha tea. How long can you store it at room temp without

>hurting it? To the point of turning vinegary? Does it hurt the scoby

>to be in a very acidic KT for a long period of time? How can I send

>a starter abroad safely on the plane?

>

>Thank you again for answering my many queries.I am just so eager to

>learn quickly :-) and impart the knowledge to friends and family.

>Given away many milk and water kefir already, and trying to reach

>that " expert " level :-) so I can educate friends. I have requests

>already from family and relatives abroad.

>

>THANK YOU SO MUCH again for helping me out.

>

>To helping change the health of one person at a time!

>

>Idy

[Guest guest]

There are those on this list that advocate the mushroom as completely

insignificant to kombucha tea. That is not my opinion.

Roussin (kombucha-research.com) states that the mushroom is

liken to the DNA of the ferment. The memory of what the ferment produces

is contained within that structure. By using the mushroom the succeeding

new ferment knows what to produce. Without the mushroom the new ferment

may go off in different directions.

Additionally, Roussin, Holbert, Len Pozio, , and others

point out that the formation of the mushroom reveals the activity of the

ferment. It is a reflection of the health of the ferment. The balance of

the ferment is clearly reflected in the " health " of the mushroom.

Yet, the mushroom does not matter as far as the lowest common

denominator of what constitutes kombucha tea (gluconic acid, acetic acid

& fructose). Nor does it matter as far as taste is concerned. (there is

no accounting for taste).

There is no researcher that I know of that has stated that the mushroom

is not necessary. They all say to use it. All published recipes call for

using the " mother " mushroom. No one advocates throwing it away. Some

have found that two or three mushrooms may be helpful to start, though

using more mushrooms (over four or so) begins producing diminishing

returns. (adds no additional value).

Obviously (at least to me) there is a difference between the liquid tea

and the mushroom. Besides the visible difference the contents are not

the same. The liquid tea represents the activity of the yeasts, while

the mushroom the activity of the bacteria. While there may be many

different yeasts associated with kombucha, there is only limited

specific bacteria associated with kombucha. Yet one can not have

kombucha without the other.

Günter writes that pressing the juice out of the mushrooms and

making kombucha " drops " have been used medicinally with much success.

Contributing that success not to the live probiotic factor in the tea

but the acids largely contained within the mushroom.

Generally people believe that kombucha is a friendly SCOBY. A peaceful

perfect symbiosis of bacteria and yeasts. Yet there is a war going on.

Both the yeasts and bacteria feed on sugar. The yeasts produce carbon

dioxide (the fizz) which suffocate the bacteria. The bacteria build the

mushroom which seals off the oxygen supply for the yeasts.

Peace

Ed Kasper LAc. & family

www.HappyHerbalist.com <http://www.HappyHerbalist.com>

>

> Evening Idy

>

> I thought someone would have responded to your info by now. Maybe

> they have, I often find responses to messages I haven't received.

> Anyway I have found no significant difference in the fermentation

> time of Kombucha based on size of the container or the size of the

> culture. I've used a culture from a gallon jar in a 6.5 gallon pail

> and had a culture over an inch in on of my 2.5 gallon crocks. All are

> to my taste with in a day of each other.

>

> As for thickness of the culture Roussin states in " Analyses

> of Kombucha Ferments " page 22, " The polysaccharide colony deserves

> comment at this stage. Polysaccharide colonies can be described as

> thin, white or in varying degrees of opacity, from translucent to

> dense white. It appears that there is no direct correlation between

> how thick the polysaccharide colony is or how robustly it grows and

> the constituents that are produced. "

>

> On the other hand the amount of starter tea you use will. If you use

> 2/3 starter to 1/3 sweet tea the ferment will be ready in about 3

days.

>

> I really have no idea how long extra SCOBY can be stored. Maybe

> Margret can answer this one. I know a year plus is okay. Remember

> you have to add starter tea at intervals as the stored SCOBY will use

> up the liquid in the storage container.

>

> Cargo holes in most commercial flights are no temperature controlled

> so can get quite cold. A lot would depend on the length of the

> flight. I think if you lined a small box with 1/2 inch Styrofoam and

> place the SCOBY & starter tea with in you should be safe for over seas

flights.

>

> Bill

>

>

>

> >I know, it's me again! :-) Bear with me as I ask another question.

> >Does the size of the scoby make a difference in fermenting time? Will

> >a bigger scoby hasten the brewing? I know for both milk and water

> >kefir, the amount of grains to liquid ratio determines how quick it

> >is done. But a faster kefir fermentation won't have as many good

> >microflora compared to a longer ferment.

> >

> >So from your experience, if I have a plate size scoby vs. a pancake

> >size scoby in identical gallon jars, does that mean that the plate

> >size scoby will make a faster brew? Will a faster brew mean lesser

> >vitamins and microflora? How come some people put a couple scobies in

> >their brewing vessels? Will a thin scoby compared to a thicker scoby

> >make different brews, given the same size and brewing conditions?

> >What kind of difference do you notice?

> >

> >Another question. From my understanding, we can store extra scobies

> >in kombucha tea. How long can you store it at room temp without

> >hurting it? To the point of turning vinegary? Does it hurt the scoby

> >to be in a very acidic KT for a long period of time? How can I send

> >a starter abroad safely on the plane?

> >

> >Thank you again for answering my many queries.I am just so eager to

> >learn quickly :-) and impart the knowledge to friends and family.

> >Given away many milk and water kefir already, and trying to reach

> >that " expert " level :-) so I can educate friends. I have requests

> >already from family and relatives abroad.

> >

> >THANK YOU SO MUCH again for helping me out.

> >

> >To helping change the health of one person at a time!

> >

> >Idy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ed

I know Roussin used to be active on the list. Some time ago

I down loaded his eBook, " Analyses of Kombucha Ferments " . I finally

got around to reading it recently. On page 22, of the book he

states: " The polysaccharide colony deserves comment at this stage.

Polysaccharide colonies can be described as thin, white or in varying

degrees of opacity, from translucent to dense white. It appears that

there is no direct correlation between how thick the polysaccharide

colony is or how robustly it grows and the constituents that are produced. "

My understanding of the statement below is that the size of the

culture is a reflection of the health of the ferment. This

contradicts what Roussin wrote. So at this point I'm do sure what

point your trying to make.

Bill

>Additionally, Roussin, Holbert, Len Pozio, , and others

>point out that the formation of the mushroom reveals the activity of the

>ferment. It is a reflection of the health of the ferment. The balance of

>the ferment is clearly reflected in the " health " of the mushroom.

[Guest guest]

Bill, as soon as I get a chance I'll have to reread his book (Roussin).

I'll have to find his quote on the mushroom being the DNA. My thought is

that in that specific statement he was talking about testing with air

flow (often used to increase vinegar production). In that test he found

that the ferment with a constant air bubbler disturbed the formation of

the mushroom, yet the results of the tea were the same as that of the

typical ferment, and therefore production of a mushroom had no bearing.

As I recall (from my memory) the comparison was on the lowest common

denominator both equal there. Since almost all ferments vary it would be

hard to determine the value of anything beyond the most common. Though

that does not deny there is a difference.

As I understand it is a statement that kombucha tea = gluconic acid,

acetic acid and fructose and it does not matter whether the mushroom

produced is thick, thin, holes, or bumps or plain ugly. It will still

have the lowest common denominator of gluconic acid, acetic acid and

fructose. True enough. That does not (in my mind) negate the value of

the mushroom (DNA or otherwise)and in the ability to read the balance of

the ferment as far as activity of the yeasts and bacteria being

reflected in the mushroom.

If the production of the mushroom is not important, what causes a

ferment to sour quickly (in less time than that ferments previous

batches) and without the formation of a mushroom? The formation of the

mushroom is from the bacteria. The bacteria feed on the sugar, and the

alcohol produced from the yeasts. If the yeasts are over active then

there would be more alcohol. It would not be sour. The sourness is

associated with the acetic acid, which is produced by the bacteria not

the yeasts. So the bacteria are present and active but not producing the

mushroom. This KT may still = gluconic acid, acetic acid and fructose so

one has kombucha without a mushroom. If the mushroom does not matter, no

problem. Yet there should be a mushroom so there is a problem.

As a stand alone statement (the mushroom is not necessary) then why do

all the researchers include a mushroom in their recipes?

I have never tested a non-producing kombucha tea. Since people say it is

sour I assume it has acetic acid. I also assume that there is fructose.

Maybe the gluconic acid is missing. Gluconic acid is also produced by

the bacteria. The mushroom, or lack of, is showing that the balance of

the kombucha is off. ... Therefore my head remains stuck in a mushroom

cloud....

peace

Ed Kasper LAc. & family

www.HappyHerbalist.com <http://www.HappyHerbalist.com>

>

> Hi Ed

>

> I know Roussin used to be active on the list. Some time ago

> I down loaded his eBook, " Analyses of Kombucha Ferments " . I finally

> got around to reading it recently. On page 22, of the book he

> states: " The polysaccharide colony deserves comment at this stage.

> Polysaccharide colonies can be described as thin, white or in varying

> degrees of opacity, from translucent to dense white. It appears that

> there is no direct correlation between how thick the polysaccharide

> colony is or how robustly it grows and the constituents that are

produced. "

>

> My understanding of the statement below is that the size of the

> culture is a reflection of the health of the ferment. This

> contradicts what Roussin wrote. So at this point I'm do sure what

> point your trying to make.

>

> Bill

>

>

>

> >Additionally, Roussin, Holbert, Len Pozio, , and others

> >point out that the formation of the mushroom reveals the activity of

the

> >ferment. It is a reflection of the health of the ferment. The balance

of

> >the ferment is clearly reflected in the " health " of the mushroom.

>

[Guest guest]

Bill and Ed, you have been so helpful in my kombucha brewing. I owe

you a lot! Thank you for taking time to enlighten me. I always learn

so much from you both. You're the best. Saving all your answers on my

file for reference. Thank a million again.

Idy

>

> Evening Idy

>

> I thought someone would have responded to your info by now. Maybe

> they have, I often find responses to messages I haven't received.

> Anyway I have found no significant difference in the fermentation

> time of Kombucha based on size of the container or the size of the

> culture. I've used a culture from a gallon jar in a 6.5 gallon

pail

> and had a culture over an inch in on of my 2.5 gallon crocks. All

are

> to my taste with in a day of each other.

>

> As for thickness of the culture Roussin states in "

Analyses

> of Kombucha Ferments " page 22, " The polysaccharide colony deserves

> comment at this stage. Polysaccharide colonies can be described as

> thin, white or in varying degrees of opacity, from translucent to

> dense white. It appears that there is no direct correlation

between

> how thick the polysaccharide colony is or how robustly it grows and

> the constituents that are produced. "

>

> On the other hand the amount of starter tea you use will. If you

use

> 2/3 starter to 1/3 sweet tea the ferment will be ready in about 3

days.

>

> I really have no idea how long extra SCOBY can be stored. Maybe

> Margret can answer this one. I know a year plus is okay. Remember

> you have to add starter tea at intervals as the stored SCOBY will

use

> up the liquid in the storage container.

>

> Cargo holes in most commercial flights are no temperature

controlled

> so can get quite cold. A lot would depend on the length of the

> flight. I think if you lined a small box with 1/2 inch Styrofoam

and

> place the SCOBY & starter tea with in you should be safe for over

seas flights.

>

> Bill

>

>