Guest guest Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Anyone wants to take a stab at it? > > I've just got back the results for my 3hours OGTT (ordered by my neuro when he was assessing my low-k related twitches/tremors). > > Just looking at this results it seems to indicate some hypoglycemia and insulin resistance (bG peeks at 30min and then crashes a 2h). > > Needless to say it was a bad experience. Here are my numbers: > > Glucose@ 0min 85 mg/dL (70-140) > Glucose@ 30min 165 mg/dL > Glucose@ 60min 133 mg/dL > Glucose@ 90min 86 mg/dL > Glucose@120min 55 mg/dL > Glucose@180min 72 mg/dL > > Insulin@ 0min 10.7 uIU/ml (2.5-25) > Insulin@ 30min 93.9 uIU/ml > Insulin@ 60min 165.1 uIU/ml > Insulin@ 90min 63.9 uIU/ml > Insulin@120min 20.9 uIU/ml > Insulin@180min 9.3 uIU/ml > > I am very concerned about my extremly high insulin numbers after 30min-1hour into OGTT. > > Is this normal (that insulin will go that high)? > Thank you for your reply. > > tiu > > Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean arenal CT/MRI > normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I found this for glucose, it may help: CRITERIA FOR DIAGNOSTIC INTERPRETATION : Presence of 2 or more of the following abnormal serum glucose values: (1> 95 mg/dl FBS; 2>180mg/dl at 60 min after glucose load; 3>155mg/dl at 120 min after glucose load; 4> 140 mg/dl at 180 min after glucose load0 qualifies for the biochemical diagnosis of Gestational Diabetes Mellitus. Patterns of glucose level abnormality other than the aforementioned criterion indicate Impaired Glucose Tolerance If I read it correctly it looks like you are okay but I'm not a doctor. To give you a reference here's mine: start 118; 30/208; 60/284; 90/264; 120/190; 180/86. Doctor at NIH said it confirmed I had diabettes. I did not find anything on insulin but I would expect ypur BG to shoot up because you just drank all that sweet stuff. My guess is that your insulin would go up to try and reduce the high glucose and then reduce as the glucose came under control. (I base this on the way the nurses treated my DM when I was at NIH. If blood sugar was over 140 they gave me insulin.) Maybe someone else will check in and we'll see if I'm right! -- In hyperaldosteronism , lvasiliu@... wrote: > > > > Anyone wants to take a stab at it? > > > > > > I've just got back the results for my 3hours OGTT (ordered by my neuro when he was assessing my low-k related twitches/tremors). > > > > Just looking at this results it seems to indicate some hypoglycemia and insulin resistance (bG peeks at 30min and then crashes a 2h). > > > > Needless to say it was a bad experience. Here are my numbers: > > > > Glucose@ 0min 85 mg/dL (70-140) > > Glucose@ 30min 165 mg/dL > > Glucose@ 60min 133 mg/dL > > Glucose@ 90min 86 mg/dL > > Glucose@120min 55 mg/dL > > Glucose@180min 72 mg/dL > > > > Insulin@ 0min 10.7 uIU/ml (2.5-25) > > Insulin@ 30min 93.9 uIU/ml > > Insulin@ 60min 165.1 uIU/ml > > Insulin@ 90min 63.9 uIU/ml > > Insulin@120min 20.9 uIU/ml > > Insulin@180min 9.3 uIU/ml > > > > I am very concerned about my extremly high insulin numbers after 30min-1hour into OGTT. > > > > Is this normal (that insulin will go that high)? > > Thank you for your reply. > > > > tiu > > > > Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean arenal CT/MRI > > normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The normal ranges are glucose 70-115 insulin 2.5-25 I did not do any special diet prep, just regular DASH diet all the time. No meds. The issue I see is that BG crashes to 55 at 120min (from 133@60min). Is this so-called reactive hypoglycemia? Thank you for your reply. tiu Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean adrenal CT/MRI normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > > > > > > I've just got back the results for my 3hours OGTT (ordered by my neuro when he was assessing my low-k related twitches/tremors). > > > > > > Just looking at this results it seems to indicate some hypoglycemia and insulin resistance (bG peeks at 30min and then crashes a 2h). > > > > > > Needless to say it was a bad experience. Here are my numbers: > > > > > > Glucose@ 0min 85 mg/dL (70-140) > > > Glucose@ 30min 165 mg/dL > > > Glucose@ 60min 133 mg/dL > > > Glucose@ 90min 86 mg/dL > > > Glucose@120min 55 mg/dL > > > Glucose@180min 72 mg/dL > > > > > > Insulin@ 0min 10.7 uIU/ml (2.5-25) > > > Insulin@ 30min 93.9 uIU/ml > > > Insulin@ 60min 165.1 uIU/ml > > > Insulin@ 90min 63.9 uIU/ml > > > Insulin@120min 20.9 uIU/ml > > > Insulin@180min 9.3 uIU/ml > > > > > > I am very concerned about my extremly high insulin numbers after 30min-1hour into OGTT. > > > > > > Is this normal (that insulin will go that high)? > > > Thank you for your reply. > > > > > > tiu > > > > > > Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean arenal CT/MRI > > > normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Your blood sugar results appear to be within the lab's normal range except for one. It's been years since I went through hypoglycemia/IR testing, but I do remember my BG results after the glucose were mostly in the low 50s, and at one point got so low that I passed out. At the time my doctor told me that the OGTT is really only reliable for diagnosing DM. But the fact that I passed out during the test was a good sign that something was wrong! For a month or so afterward he had me test my own blood sugar after meals to establish that it did indeed drop down to dangerously low levels (I would sometimes black out between 40 minutes and 2 hours after eating if I ate a carb-heavy meal, which was about all I ate in those days as I was vegetarian). When this pattern was clearly established, then I got a diagnosis of reactive/postprandial hypoglycemia. For diagnosing insulin resistance, IIRC additional blood tests were involved; I think they were c-peptide and fasting insulin. Have you had those done? > > > > I've just got back the results for my 3hours OGTT (ordered by my neuro when he was assessing my low-k related twitches/tremors). > > > > Just looking at this results it seems to indicate some hypoglycemia and insulin resistance (bG peeks at 30min and then crashes a 2h). > > > > Needless to say it was a bad experience. Here are my numbers: > > > > Glucose@ 0min 85 mg/dL (70-140) > > Glucose@ 30min 165 mg/dL > > Glucose@ 60min 133 mg/dL > > Glucose@ 90min 86 mg/dL > > Glucose@120min 55 mg/dL > > Glucose@180min 72 mg/dL > > > > Insulin@ 0min 10.7 uIU/ml (2.5-25) > > Insulin@ 30min 93.9 uIU/ml > > Insulin@ 60min 165.1 uIU/ml > > Insulin@ 90min 63.9 uIU/ml > > Insulin@120min 20.9 uIU/ml > > Insulin@180min 9.3 uIU/ml > > > > I am very concerned about my extremly high insulin numbers after 30min-1hour into OGTT. > > > > Is this normal (that insulin will go that high)? > > Thank you for your reply. > > > > tiu > > > > Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean arenal CT/MRI > > normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Thanks , that's useful. I don't have DM, but I was concerned about the BG crash 133->55 from 60-120min. I've had tremors and twitching around that time and a shakeness feeling. Found some website where they indicated that this type of crash and then rebound to normal BG levels after 3h indicates reactive hypoglycemia: http://hypoglykemie.nl/gtt.htm I started experiencing low BG spells during the last couple of months and was questioning if these are another face of PA. tiu Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean adrenal CT/MRI normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > > > > > > I found this for glucose, it may help: CRITERIA FOR DIAGNOSTIC > INTERPRETATION : Presence of 2 or more of the following abnormal serum > glucose values: (1> 95 mg/dl FBS; 2>180mg/dl at 60 min after glucose > load; 3>155mg/dl at 120 min after glucose load; 4> 140 mg/dl at 180 min > after glucose load0 qualifies for the biochemical diagnosis of > Gestational Diabetes Mellitus. Patterns of glucose level abnormality > other than the aforementioned criterion indicate Impaired Glucose > Tolerance > > > If I read it correctly it looks like you are okay but I'm not a doctor. > To give you a reference here's mine: start 118; 30/208; 60/284; 90/264; > 120/190; 180/86. Doctor at NIH said it confirmed I had diabettes. > > I did not find anything on insulin but I would expect ypur BG to shoot > up because you just drank all that sweet stuff. My guess is that your > insulin would go up to try and reduce the high glucose and then reduce > as the glucose came under control. (I base this on the way the nurses > treated my DM when I was at NIH. If blood sugar was over 140 they gave > me insulin.) Maybe someone else will check in and we'll see if I'm > right! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 My reactive hypo/IR seems to have corrected itself since the adrenalectomy, at least based on c-peptide testing and postprandial symptoms. (I opted not to repeat the OGTT.) In the days before my surgery, even a high-protein/low-carb meal (e.g. plain chicken and a green veggie) would give me reactive hypo... now I am able to eat small amounts of rice or potatoes without any hypo symptoms. > > > > > > > > > I found this for glucose, it may help: CRITERIA FOR DIAGNOSTIC > > > INTERPRETATION : Presence of 2 or more of the following abnormal serum > > > glucose values: (1> 95 mg/dl FBS; 2>180mg/dl at 60 min after glucose > > > load; 3>155mg/dl at 120 min after glucose load; 4> 140 mg/dl at 180 min > > > after glucose load0 qualifies for the biochemical diagnosis of > > > Gestational Diabetes Mellitus. Patterns of glucose level abnormality > > > other than the aforementioned criterion indicate Impaired Glucose > > > Tolerance > > > > > > > > > If I read it correctly it looks like you are okay but I'm not a doctor. > > > To give you a reference here's mine: start 118; 30/208; 60/284; 90/264; > > > 120/190; 180/86. Doctor at NIH said it confirmed I had diabettes. > > > > > > I did not find anything on insulin but I would expect ypur BG to shoot > > > up because you just drank all that sweet stuff. My guess is that your > > > insulin would go up to try and reduce the high glucose and then reduce > > > as the glucose came under control. (I base this on the way the nurses > > > treated my DM when I was at NIH. If blood sugar was over 140 they gave > > > me insulin.) Maybe someone else will check in and we'll see if I'm > > > right! > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 You know I also get the 1AM wakeup calls. Every day without a fail. But mine comes with heart racing too. And with tremors and leg cramps. Since I'm DASHing this cannot be low-K symptom. You are so right about changing habits. I used to be a huge fan of chocolates and all sweets stuff but after starting serious DASH those are also out (though I eat bananas which have lots of sugars). The problem I have is that I keep gaining weight. Eating a heavy meal before going to bed is what I was trying to avoid. Thanks for chiming in ! tiu PS. I enjoyed you ranting about cattle medical care =)) No specialist can diagnose anything in 15-20min allocated for a visit! > > And low blood sugar is not diabetes anyway. Diabetes is diagnosed based on high blood sugar, not low blood sugar, but some people do overpoduce insulin, still that's not diabetes in the sense we commonly refer to the disease of diabetes. >  >  I notice alot of people in middle age seemed to have a reactive blood sugar - usually harmless, just aggravating to get those sighs and blahs after lunch when you're at work - but I also notice alot of them seem to have some dietary changes about the same time - good changes, mind you, but changes just the same. >  > When we're young carbs and proteins are the big part of our diet and our body adapts and even anticipates the insulin we will need based on our historical diets, so we start it up even before we're eating or done eating. When we have changes, even subtle it seems for many, our bodies keep anticipating the same level of insulin, yet we are eating different, or less carbs especially, and the added insulin depletes our sugar a little faster, then down we go. A good doc in Tulsa once ran all these tests on mewhen I was about 30 for exactly that and this is how he explained it to me. Sure enough as my body adapted I had less and less of those blahs and low sugars - he would have me come in and get blood drawn at various times after lunch and I'd be in the 60's on my blood glucose after a big meal. This was also happening right at 1 am too back then as I woke up every night at 1 and was complaining to him about it - checked my sugars and sure enough low. He > had me eat something right before bed and I slept through the night. >  > That was one good doc, an older fellow who when you called the office, a big medical group, they would always tell you, " You know Doctor Oglesby takes a long time with his patients, so make sure you have extra time just in case. " But everyone got the same care and service.....oh where have those days gone? Nowadays in many goup practices, to make their " bonus " money or to make the good salary, you have to see so many patients per day/week/month to reach a level to get the bonus, so they are incentivised - especially family practice - to move you through like cattle. I think we need to incentivise family practice docs to NOT have to do that. >  > Then again I have a pal who has been diagnosed with hyperinsulinemia and he just overproduces - though I don't think they know why in his case. >  >  Some diabetics get low blood sugars (as does EVERYONE when we don't eat BTW) but that's when they take too much insulin or take insulin and don't eat >  > ......I always tease people in fun when they tell me that " If I don't eat I get hypoglycemic "  (and picture them putting the back of their hand to their forehead and swooning as they say it) and then I always answer them that " we all get hypoglycemic if we don't eat! That's why we eat " - even the diabetic eventually gets low if they don't eat ....but seriously folks, I know what they mean. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Thanks MS for replying. It seems you've had similar issues before ADX. I have had one fasting insulin and c-peptide in the past: Insulin (fasting) = 10.7 (2.5-25 uIU/mL) C-peptide (fasting) = 2.8 (1.1-5.0 ng/mL) Also I've had hemoglobin A1C before: Insulin (fasting) = 16.9 (2.5-25 uIU/mL) HbA1C (fasting) = 5.5 (4.8-6.4 %) Been told that ALL are good/normal. tiu > > Your blood sugar results appear to be within the lab's normal range except for one. It's been years since I went through hypoglycemia/IR testing, but I do remember my BG results after the glucose were mostly in the low 50s, and at one point got so low that I passed out. > > At the time my doctor told me that the OGTT is really only reliable for diagnosing DM. But the fact that I passed out during the test was a good sign that something was wrong! > > For a month or so afterward he had me test my own blood sugar after meals to establish that it did indeed drop down to dangerously low levels (I would sometimes black out between 40 minutes and 2 hours after eating if I ate a carb-heavy meal, which was about all I ate in those days as I was vegetarian). When this pattern was clearly established, then I got a diagnosis of reactive/postprandial hypoglycemia. > > For diagnosing insulin resistance, IIRC additional blood tests were involved; I think they were c-peptide and fasting insulin. Have you had those done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I hear ya' Max! But my incorrectly drawn K has never been below 3.7 and as high as 4.1 when heavy DASHing. You could be right though that K=3.7 is way too low for my body since I do not have any K reading when I was perfectly healthy. But I usually supplement K with DASH, banana and V8 or coconut water. tiu > > You might be surprised of your DASH-K assumption after a blood test to find > your K=? and how much more K-supplement you need L > > > > Max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I do pee everytime when waking up and most of the time I'm soaked in sweat. And I wake up because my heart will start racing. It's happening every other hour pretty much every night! Thank you for replying. tiu > > > > > > And low blood sugar is not diabetes anyway. Diabetes is diagnosed based on high blood sugar, not low blood sugar, but some people do overpoduce insulin, still that's not diabetes in the sense we commonly refer to the disease of diabetes. > > >  > > >  I notice alot of people in middle age seemed to have a reactive blood sugar - usually harmless, just aggravating to get those sighs and blahs after lunch when you're at work - but I also notice alot of them seem to have some dietary changes about the same time - good changes, mind you, but changes just the same. > > >  > > > When we're young carbs and proteins are the big part of our diet and our body adapts and even anticipates the insulin we will need based on our historical diets, so we start it up even before we're eating or done eating. When we have changes, even subtle it seems for many, our bodies keep anticipating the same level of insulin, yet we are eating different, or less carbs especially, and the added insulin depletes our sugar a little faster, then down we go. A good doc in Tulsa once ran all these tests on mewhen I was about 30 for exactly that and this is how he explained it to me. Sure enough as my body adapted I had less and less of those blahs and low sugars - he would have me come in and get blood drawn at various times after lunch and I'd be in the 60's on my blood glucose after a big meal. This was also happening right at 1 am too back then as I woke up every night at 1 and was complaining to him about it - checked my sugars and sure enough low. He > > > had me eat something right before bed and I slept through the night. > > >  > > > That was one good doc, an older fellow who when you called the office, a big medical group, they would always tell you, " You know Doctor Oglesby takes a long time with his patients, so make sure you have extra time just in case. " But everyone got the same care and service.....oh where have those days gone? Nowadays in many goup practices, to make their " bonus " money or to make the good salary, you have to see so many patients per day/week/month to reach a level to get the bonus, so they are incentivised - especially family practice - to move you through like cattle. I think we need to incentivise family practice docs to NOT have to do that. > > >  > > > Then again I have a pal who has been diagnosed with hyperinsulinemia and he just overproduces - though I don't think they know why in his case. > > >  > > >  Some diabetics get low blood sugars (as does EVERYONE when we don't eat BTW) but that's when they take too much insulin or take insulin and don't eat > > >  > > > ......I always tease people in fun when they tell me that " If I don't eat I get hypoglycemic "  (and picture them putting the back of their hand to their forehead and swooning as they say it) and then I always answer them that " we all get hypoglycemic if we don't eat! That's why we eat " - even the diabetic eventually gets low if they don't eat ....but seriously folks, I know what they mean. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 That could explain why when BG crashed 133->55 between 60-120min into OGTT I started experiencing twitching and cold sweats (55 is below the BG normal range) Dr. Grim, is there any fix for reactive hypoglycemia in PA (aside from the obvious DASHing in very small frequent meals)? Thank you for you advice, greatly appreciated! tiu > > > > > > > > > I found this for glucose, it may help: CRITERIA FOR DIAGNOSTIC > > > INTERPRETATION : Presence of 2 or more of the following abnormal serum > > > glucose values: (1> 95 mg/dl FBS; 2>180mg/dl at 60 min after glucose > > > load; 3>155mg/dl at 120 min after glucose load; 4> 140 mg/dl at 180 min > > > after glucose load0 qualifies for the biochemical diagnosis of > > > Gestational Diabetes Mellitus. Patterns of glucose level abnormality > > > other than the aforementioned criterion indicate Impaired Glucose > > > Tolerance > > > > > > > > > If I read it correctly it looks like you are okay but I'm not a doctor. > > > To give you a reference here's mine: start 118; 30/208; 60/284; 90/264; > > > 120/190; 180/86. Doctor at NIH said it confirmed I had diabettes. > > > > > > I did not find anything on insulin but I would expect ypur BG to shoot > > > up because you just drank all that sweet stuff. My guess is that your > > > insulin would go up to try and reduce the high glucose and then reduce > > > as the glucose came under control. (I base this on the way the nurses > > > treated my DM when I was at NIH. If blood sugar was over 140 they gave > > > me insulin.) Maybe someone else will check in and we'll see if I'm > > > right! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 That could explain why when BG crashed 133->55 between 60-120min into OGTT I started experiencing twitching and cold sweats (55 is below the BG normal range) Dr. Grim, is there any fix for reactive hypoglycemia in PA (aside from the obvious DASHing in very small frequent meals)? Thank you for you advice, greatly appreciated! tiu > > > > > > > > > I found this for glucose, it may help: CRITERIA FOR DIAGNOSTIC > > > INTERPRETATION : Presence of 2 or more of the following abnormal serum > > > glucose values: (1> 95 mg/dl FBS; 2>180mg/dl at 60 min after glucose > > > load; 3>155mg/dl at 120 min after glucose load; 4> 140 mg/dl at 180 min > > > after glucose load0 qualifies for the biochemical diagnosis of > > > Gestational Diabetes Mellitus. Patterns of glucose level abnormality > > > other than the aforementioned criterion indicate Impaired Glucose > > > Tolerance > > > > > > > > > If I read it correctly it looks like you are okay but I'm not a doctor. > > > To give you a reference here's mine: start 118; 30/208; 60/284; 90/264; > > > 120/190; 180/86. Doctor at NIH said it confirmed I had diabettes. > > > > > > I did not find anything on insulin but I would expect ypur BG to shoot > > > up because you just drank all that sweet stuff. My guess is that your > > > insulin would go up to try and reduce the high glucose and then reduce > > > as the glucose came under control. (I base this on the way the nurses > > > treated my DM when I was at NIH. If blood sugar was over 140 they gave > > > me insulin.) Maybe someone else will check in and we'll see if I'm > > > right! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 My doc knew that; I should have mentioned it to give him credit where due. Exactly why I didn't repeat the OGTT after my Adx - I will never eat a high-carb diet again due to my food intolerances (when one can't eat grains or fruit or sugar, it's pretty hard to eat high carb!) In the U.S. this is rarely a problem - the standard American diet is nearly always carb-heavy. > > > > > > > > I've just got back the results for my 3hours OGTT (ordered by my neuro when he was assessing my low-k related twitches/tremors). > > > > > > > > Just looking at this results it seems to indicate some hypoglycemia and insulin resistance (bG peeks at 30min and then crashes a 2h). > > > > > > > > Needless to say it was a bad experience. Here are my numbers: > > > > > > > > Glucose@ 0min 85 mg/dL (70-140) > > > > Glucose@ 30min 165 mg/dL > > > > Glucose@ 60min 133 mg/dL > > > > Glucose@ 90min 86 mg/dL > > > > Glucose@120min 55 mg/dL > > > > Glucose@180min 72 mg/dL > > > > > > > > Insulin@ 0min 10.7 uIU/ml (2.5-25) > > > > Insulin@ 30min 93.9 uIU/ml > > > > Insulin@ 60min 165.1 uIU/ml > > > > Insulin@ 90min 63.9 uIU/ml > > > > Insulin@120min 20.9 uIU/ml > > > > Insulin@180min 9.3 uIU/ml > > > > > > > > I am very concerned about my extremly high insulin numbers after 30min-1hour into OGTT. > > > > > > > > Is this normal (that insulin will go that high)? > > > > Thank you for your reply. > > > > > > > > tiu > > > > > > > > Male 41 suspected PA (Grim stage 1) with clean arenal CT/MRI > > > > normal BP while DASHing and no-meds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Yes it SEEMS a low-K/high-Na reaction. But my last 24h urine sodium was 68 mMol/24h (1563 mg of Na). So it's not Na/K imbalance. It has to be something else (maybe hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis suppression due to high aldo when the body is fighting to bring everything back in balance). tiu > > > I agree THAT sounds like classic low K reaction. Or mag. or both. The peeing, the cramps, the heart feeling funny is exactly what low K does. Are you certain you're not getting up over the 1500 mark when DASHing (are you having a big dinner?) The peeing and cramps certainly aren't the low blood sugar norm, and if you're peeing every time you wake up - then somethings triggering it and going out with your pee. That's exactly what K does when the aldo and sodium crowd it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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