Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow older?

[Guest guest]

In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging brings with

it.  In my experience genetics trumps everything.  If you have good genetics

you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw it up with a bad

lifestyle.  

I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few dozen

nonagenarians and  hundreds of octogenarians.  The common thread: the vast

majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had relatives

who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran marathons or

rode bicycles.  One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well into her 80s.  

Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two were

thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were perfectly

capable of caring for themselves.  One weighed 100 lbs soaking wet but had been

" thin " all her life. 

The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

obstruction and refused surgery.  Her son is is still  patient of mine.  He

is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago.  He delivered mail,

when they had to walk their routes.  The only exercise he has ever done is

walk.  He still walks.  He is a little overweight, lives by himself and

travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well make it

100.  

The third centenarian died just short of 102.  Her biggest complaint was back

pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis.  She lived alone and cooked and

cleaned her own home.  In her late 90s she often complained that she was unable

to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.  

One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s and is

still working.  His only exercise is walking and playing pool.  He is not

frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His major

complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17 years younger.

 Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his testosterone levels

but he declined because he did not feel he could afford the treatment.

It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up to our

genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it.  There are a number of

serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed often lead to early

death.

In the end it may not  matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents did

not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow older?

 

Hobman wrote:

> Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a grain

of salt

>I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were *competitive*

runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men and women who did

brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a week. Dr. Giarnella is

right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that he or she could compete

as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard that training is. If I

recall correctly, a person who isn't currently training as an endurance athlete

can maintain a power output of maybe 60% of VO2max for 20 minutes. A

competitive endurance athlete can maintain a power output of about 85% of VO2max

and is able to sustain that for an hour or more. A person who hasn't gotten

himself in shape to do a workout like that has no idea how much greater the

suffering is at 85% of VO2max versus 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of

discomfort is based on power output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't suffer

as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's sport always

looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I understand how much

suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand that I have no idea how

much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting or C & J'ing three times my body

weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best are lifting about three times body

weight for those lifts in my weight bracket.)

That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature of its

argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level workouts,

or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because they were

genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the latter is a

necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a competitive level

in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners get knee and hip

problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get back, neck and wrist

problems, just for instance.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise until the

cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of frailty in old age lies

in various disease states that begin earlier in life and greatly affect an

individuals ability to be physically active.

 

(frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in health or

body (especially from old age))

Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint problems.  All

to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.  

While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be aggravated with

activity, particularly weight bearing activities. 

Another common impediment is copd/emphysema.  Limited respiratory capacity

greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active. 

Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many situations

physical activity is great for rehabilitation. 

There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is often a

significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's society of

mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has become a

way of life. 

In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a great

success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every day.

Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to a local

gym where they might take up resistance training using the various machines

available however for the most part they tend to take up the treadmill or

exercise bike or some other form of  CR exercise such as elipticals and stair

steppers. 

While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as being not

worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major step up.

 For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

progression of their disease.  

I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )  simply

through walking and modifying their diet.  I have had patients lose from 50-100

lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification. No magic pills, no

magic diet.  

For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for numerous

reasons.

We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with electricity

and the internal combustion engine. 

I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA 

________________________________

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

" Supertraining " <Supertraining >

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

 

In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging brings with

it.  In my experience genetics trumps everything.  If you have good genetics

you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw it up with a bad

lifestyle.  

I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few dozen

nonagenarians and  hundreds of octogenarians.  The common thread: the vast

majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had relatives

who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran marathons or

rode bicycles.  One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well into her 80s.  

Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two were

thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were perfectly

capable of caring for themselves.  One weighed 100 lbs soaking wet but had been

" thin " all her life. 

The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

obstruction and refused surgery.  Her son is is still  patient of mine.  He

is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago.  He delivered mail,

when they had to walk their routes.  The only exercise he has ever done is

walk.  He still walks.  He is a little overweight, lives by himself and

travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well make it

100.  

The third centenarian died just short of 102.  Her biggest complaint was back

pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis.  She lived alone and cooked and

cleaned her own home.  In her late 90s she often complained that she was unable

to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.  

One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s and is

still working.  His only exercise is walking and playing pool.  He is not

frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His major

complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17 years younger.

 Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his testosterone levels

but he declined because he did not feel he could afford the treatment.

It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up to our

genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it.  There are a number of

serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed often lead to early

death.

In the end it may not  matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents did

not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow older?

 

Hobman wrote:

> Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a grain

of salt

>I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were *competitive*

runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men and women who did

brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a week. Dr. Giarnella is

right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that he or she could compete

as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard that training is. If I

recall correctly, a person who isn't currently training as an endurance athlete

can maintain a power output of maybe 60% of VO2max for 20 minutes. A

competitive endurance athlete can maintain a power output of about 85% of VO2max

and is able to sustain that for an hour or more. A person who hasn't gotten

himself in shape to do a workout like that has no idea how much greater the

suffering is at 85% of VO2max versus 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of

discomfort is based on power output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't suffer

as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's sport always

looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I understand how much

suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand that I have no idea how

much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting or C & J'ing three times my body

weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best are lifting about three times body

weight for those lifts in my weight bracket.)

That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature of its

argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level workouts,

or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because they were

genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the latter is a

necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a competitive level

in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners get knee and hip

problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get back, neck and wrist

problems, just for instance.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

.....and when the cows do come home, we lifters will eat them for dinner.

Sorry Dr. Ralph, I couldn't resist.

Seriously though - Mel himself had the dilemma right after his own heart

problems of staving off complete atrophy and weakness - and he wrote his

experiences up - they included flexing muscle groups, like a bodybuilder, for

longer periods of time as he grew stronger.

If someone who had the complete coronary experience he had could gain/return

strength after such an event with such a simple exercise strategy - why do we

not suggest our more frail persons take back their own muscle control in this

fashion?

Is there also not a mental component that makes us fight back against the

adversity...or acquiesce??

my good friend the OL (now 62) told me that at the start of her journey, she was

told to " sit down, take the drugs and quit trying " by her docs. She has severe

arthritis and both knees have been bone on bone a long time. Instead of doing as

she was told, she decided to lift weights and FIGHT.

She now can get to parallel on her back squat...is down 120 lbs....! and is

fitter than she has been since her youth.

another friend of mine, who competed her first PL meets in her late 50's - now

does triathlon. She taught herself to SWIM...in 2 months...and did an ocean swim

for her first triathlon, nearly drowning but finishing...and she's also 62.

Wait..the more I think about it, maybe the answer is killing time/surviving

until you hit your early 60's and then shocking everyone around you by doing

extreme sports?

With humor and still amazed at my friends...and feeling like an underachiever??

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing undergeezer 51 yo powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow older?

Hobman wrote:

> Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a grain

of salt

>I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were *competitive*

runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men and women who did

brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a week. Dr. Giarnella is

right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that he or she could compete

as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard that training is. If I

recall correctly, a person who isn't currently training as an endurance athlete

can maintain a power output of maybe 60% of VO2max for 20 minutes. A competitive

endurance athlete can maintain a power output of about 85% of VO2max and is able

to sustain that for an hour or more. A person who hasn't gotten himself in shape

to do a workout like that has no idea how much greater the suffering is at 85%

of VO2max versus 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of discomfort is based

on power output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't suffer

as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's sport always

looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I understand how much

suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand that I have no idea how

much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting or C & J'ing three times my body

weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best are lifting about three times body

weight for those lifts in my weight bracket.)

That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature of its

argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level workouts,

or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because they were

genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the latter is a necessary

condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a competitive level in

endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners get knee and hip problems,

swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get back, neck and wrist problems, just

for instance.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

Ultimately people will do what they enjoy. If you enjoy running over lifting

weights then do what you like. I guess for most Americans this means that doing

something is better than nothing at all. If you enjoy swimming, then swim. If

you enjoy . . . I could list a 100 different activities. If everyone like the

same activity then something would be wrong with society.

A lot of people who are not athletes do nothing at all physically. So doing

something is better than nothing.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco

Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

Hey , the endurance folks aren't beating the elite numbers of the younger

age groups either... .

I mean - Shorter isn't beating his own best times from his heyday either,

right?

Still being an elite athlete as we age does not mean we will do our best lifts

or runs - but it's a far cry from frail!

If you find yourself still beating younger lifters as you age, and you find you

are still considering doing lifetime PR's as you continue through your master

years, you aren't a threat to get frail anytime soon.

As for double bodyweight deadlift as a standard for frailty, goodness...double

mine is over elite on the strength tables lol. You're a hard man to make happy,

. I mean, I strive to maintain that standard but goodness.... and I have

not given up on lifetime PR advancement quite yet...

I'd better lose a couple of kg before I hit 80 to keep this up.

In good humor but pulling for her life!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter (still in the open as well as

Master at 51..)

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

The study compares populations participating in similar type strength/endurance

activities, and shows there is a watershed age (identified as around 60) where

the leg strength (and also thigh mass) of these athletes drops, but then remains

at the same at the same level.

Would this same effect be found in absolute strength or speed/strength athletes?

I've seen numerous reports that endurance is the last of the big three

physiological capacities to succumb to age (I believe speed is the first,

followed by absolute strength and then endurance). There are also studies

suggesting muscle fibre 'type' has plasticity and tends to move on the continuum

from power to endurance as we age. Both of these effects suggest that the

strength/endurance (or what we'd likely call the endurance athlete) would indeed

age well.

But the power athlete - maybe not so well. So if I say anyone who can't deadlift

twice their bodyweight is frail, the study might not arrive at the conclusion.

Yes, I know the above sentence is argumentative and isn't really meant

seriously. But I also think the suggestion you can be as strong at 60 as you are

at 40 might not apply if you are defining strength as power. And yes, I know how

strong masters powerlifters and olympic lifters are. None the less, you see a

serious deterioration in world record numbers as the athletes age.

The take-home message to me is that you can combat frailty through a rational

program of balanced activity and I think we all agree on that. I suspect there

are better exercise or lifestyle choices than simply running, cycling or

swimming if the goal is combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't

enough just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day. We've

seen people do this while reading a book and then complain they exercise, but

don't improve.

For example, if cycling is the primary activity I'm sure Ralph would agree that

for overall health it should probably be augmented with assistance exercises,

for upper body musculature, for joint health and range of motion through the

joints, especially the hips and knees. Further, the cycling program should have

a cyclical nature to it, addressing endurance, strength and speed.

I'd say the same about powerlifting or other activities. If the goal is aging

well, than some balance is required. Endurance, strength, speed and range of

motion should all be considered. An athlete can excel at a sport - and not

necessarily be healthy.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

On 11/23/11 8:38 PM, pushprogress wrote:

> Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

>

> > In my opinion, at issue here is that there is an assumption that

> sports, such as rowing and cycling, do not provide enough resistance to

> promote increased muscle strength.

>

> Yes, and it's peculiar, considering that the original post in this

> thread was about a survey of competitive masters-age swimmers, cyclists

> and runners that showed:

> " There was little evidence of deterioration in the older athletes'

> musculature, however. The athletes in their 70s and 80s had almost as

> much thigh muscle mass as the athletes in their 40s, with minor if any

> fat infiltration. The athletes also remained strong. There was, as

> scientists noted, a drop-off in leg muscle strength around age 60 in

> both men and women. They weren't as strong as the 50-year-olds, but the

> differential was not huge, and little additional decline followed. The

> 70- and 80-year-old athletes were about as strong as those in their

> 60s. "

> If one is only interested in avoiding frailty, this study seems to

> suggest that running, cycling or swimming is sufficient.

> Regards,

> sArdmore, PA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For what it is worth, my observation, as an osteopath in the UK, is

that those people who play sport, or are active physically, in non

contact sports tend to continue to be active for longer. Those who

play rugby, football, etc, have a tendency to injure themselves in a

way which prevents continuation of their sport into the mid 40's. The

body simply cannot take the punishment and, they drift to the bar to

support and observe their team, thus loosing muscle mass and strength,

and putting on weight. The inevitable end result of this is mild

obesity, diabetes, coronary heart disease and a body that cannot cope

with anything but the most gentle of exercise regimens.

An interesting research topic, for anyone who has the time, might be

to see if ex-team sports players are as fit (obesity, diabetes, chd,

etc) as their non team sports counterparts. I suspect there will be a

difference. If this is the case, should we be encouraging combative

sports? ( For the record and from a personal stand point, I think all

sport is good and encourage all my patients to exercise in some way

but would blame a rugby tackle at school from preventing me from

continuing to be able to run thirty four years on from the injury. I

will not be doing triathlons into my seventies.)

Turning the mindset of middle aged patients of all sporting

persuasions, including the sporting athiest, is a very difficult one.

The " You can take a horse to water " saying comes to mind in these

cases. Injured, ex sports people play golf, some go to the gym but not

many in my experience. The perception that although they no longer

play competitive team games they are still fit and healthy, is

commonplace. The reality is somewhat different, thus frailty drifts in

like the mist in of an October morning.

Kendall Chew

Alsager, Cheshire.

England.

[Guest guest]

These are some interesting observations on human behaviour. I've theorized that

from a psychological standpoint it may be more difficult for elite athletes to

pursue lifetime fitness (not that they can't - many do, but they may have more

to overcome). My rationale is based on the simple idea that there is no steady

state - you are improving or declining. For the person that has to accept they

cannot improve due to the extreme high adaptation they have achieved for their

sport - is it more difficult to train knowing you are simply reducing the rate

of decline? I suspect it would be.

Hobman

Saskatoon CANADA

On 11/28/11 2:59 PM, Kendall Chew wrote:

> For what it is worth, my observation, as an osteopath in the UK, is

> that those people who play sport, or are active physically, in non

> contact sports tend to continue to be active for longer. Those who

> play rugby, football, etc, have a tendency to injure themselves in a

> way which prevents continuation of their sport into the mid 40's. The

> body simply cannot take the punishment and, they drift to the bar to

> support and observe their team, thus loosing muscle mass and strength,

> and putting on weight. The inevitable end result of this is mild

> obesity, diabetes, coronary heart disease and a body that cannot cope

> with anything but the most gentle of exercise regimens.

>

> An interesting research topic, for anyone who has the time, might be

> to see if ex-team sports players are as fit (obesity, diabetes, chd,

> etc) as their non team sports counterparts. I suspect there will be a

> difference. If this is the case, should we be encouraging combative

> sports? ( For the record and from a personal stand point, I think all

> sport is good and encourage all my patients to exercise in some way

> but would blame a rugby tackle at school from preventing me from

> continuing to be able to run thirty four years on from the injury. I

> will not be doing triathlons into my seventies.)

>

> Turning the mindset of middle aged patients of all sporting

> persuasions, including the sporting athiest, is a very difficult one.

> The " You can take a horse to water " saying comes to mind in these

> cases. Injured, ex sports people play golf, some go to the gym but not

> many in my experience. The perception that although they no longer

> play competitive team games they are still fit and healthy, is

> commonplace. The reality is somewhat different, thus frailty drifts in

> like the mist in of an October morning.

>

> Kendall Chew

> Alsager, Cheshire.

> England.

[Guest guest]

I have been following this thread with great interest. I am a life long fitness

enthusiast and will be 58 in a month. Over the years I have changed sports as I

grew older and also as my interests changed. May I just say that I am not an MD,

a physiologist or any kind of related professional. These are all anecdotal

observations and thoughts.

When I was a boy I primarily played team sports especially basketball and

football (soccer). It was fun, developed social skills and kept me in great

shape. As I got older I no longer had the time to scheduale games with friends

and so gravitated to individual sports where I could train at a time convenient

to me. I began with disrtance running back in the seventies, when I was in my

twenties. It gave me great c/v endurance but by the time I was in my mid

thirties I had to give it up due to lower back pain. Looking back on this

experience, I later felt that I made the mistake of not doing strength training

and not stretching. I was too one dimensional. Lesson learned.

I decided to begin swimming, which was probably the smartest physical fitness

move I ever made. Over the years I have seen how swimming has transformed my

body and gave me a general feeling of well being. I also became very proficient

at all the strokes which meant that I rarely suffered over use injuries.

At about age 40 I began weight training, which I continue to this day. At the

time, I was very skinny and wanted to add mass. Many years have past and I

became muscular but the heavy pounding took it's toll and my emphasis has

switched from low reps/high weight to more of a strength - endurance emphasis

using kettlebells and bw exercises. I no longer wanted mass, no longer cared

about adding weight to my max deadlift and became more interested in my over all

fitness.

So today, closing in on 60, I am more interested in overall fitness than being

great at one thing. I don't think that you can isolate one aspect of physical

fitness and say that is the most important aspect of longevity. It is like the

evolutionary battle between the specialist and the jack of all trades. Usually

the latter is better off in the long run. Right now I have decided to add more

flexibility training to my weekly routine because as I get older I feel the

need. So I will never be an outstanding endurance athlete, strength athlete or

extremely flexible but I hope to be good at all of these.

Finally, a few words on genetics: since this is out of our control, why sweat

it? We have to do the best with the hand we were dealt.

Yehoshua Zohar

Karmiel, Israel

[Guest guest]

The following article  is very appropriate for this discussion.  Anyone

interested in this topic should access the original article. I include just a

short conclusion found at the end of the article.

The article looked at athletes who trained for sprinting and who continued their

training into old age.  Despite the continued high intensity  training they

suffered a considerable loss in the size of their typeII fast twitch muscle

fibers.  

*********************************************************

American Physiological Society

Journal of Applied Physiology

1.

Aging, muscle fiber type, and contractile function in sprint-trained athletes

Marko T. Korhonen,1,4 Cristea,2Markku Alén,1,4Keijo

Häkkinen,3Sarianna Sipilä,1,4Antti Mero,3Jukka T. Viitasalo,5Lars

Larsson,2,*and Harri Suominen1,4,*

1Department of Healt

http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/906.short

In conclusion, the present results suggest that highly trained competitive

sprint runners experience the typical aging-associated reduction in the size of

fast fibers, shift toward a slower MHC isoform profile, and lower Voin muscle

cells expressing the type I MHC isoform, playing a role in the decline in

explosive force-production capacity. On the other hand, our master sprinters

demonstrated considerably larger fiber size, intact maximum force normalized to

cross-sectional area at the single muscle fiber level, and higher maximal and

explosive strength characteristics than those previously reported for untrained

older people. It is likely, therefore, that systematic sprint training is an

effective stimulus in maintaining muscle fiber structure and force-production

characteristics during aging. Although our findings are not directly applicable

to untrained people, they tend to favor the view that, to minimize the effect of

aging on the neuromuscular

system, optimal overall physical training might require actions that impose

explosive-type overload on muscle.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA 

________________________________

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

" Supertraining " <Supertraining >

Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

 

We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise until the

cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of frailty in old age lies

in various disease states that begin earlier in life and greatly affect an

individuals ability to be physically active.

 

(frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in health or

body (especially from old age))

Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint problems.  All

to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.  

While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be aggravated with

activity, particularly weight bearing activities. 

Another common impediment is copd/emphysema.  Limited respiratory capacity

greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active. 

Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many situations

physical activity is great for rehabilitation. 

There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is often a

significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's society of

mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has become a

way of life. 

In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a great

success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every day.

Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to a local

gym where they might take up resistance training using the various machines

available however for the most part they tend to take up the treadmill or

exercise bike or some other form of  CR exercise such as elipticals and stair

steppers. 

While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as being not

worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major step up.

 For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

progression of their disease.  

I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )  simply

through walking and modifying their diet.  I have had patients lose from 50-100

lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification. No magic pills, no

magic diet.  

For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for numerous

reasons.

We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with electricity

and the internal combustion engine. 

I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA 

________________________________

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

" Supertraining " <Supertraining >

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

 

In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging brings with

it.  In my experience genetics trumps everything.  If you have good genetics

you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw it up with a bad

lifestyle.  

I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few dozen

nonagenarians and  hundreds of octogenarians.  The common thread: the vast

majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had relatives

who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran marathons or

rode bicycles.  One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well into her 80s.  

Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two were

thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were perfectly

capable of caring for themselves.  One weighed 100 lbs soaking wet but had been

" thin " all her life. 

The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

obstruction and refused surgery.  Her son is is still  patient of mine.  He

is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago.  He delivered mail,

when they had to walk their routes.  The only exercise he has ever done is

walk.  He still walks.  He is a little overweight, lives by himself and

travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well make it

100.  

The third centenarian died just short of 102.  Her biggest complaint was back

pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis.  She lived alone and cooked and

cleaned her own home.  In her late 90s she often complained that she was unable

to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.  

One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s and is

still working.  His only exercise is walking and playing pool.  He is not

frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His major

complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17 years younger.

 Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his testosterone levels

but he declined because he did not feel he could afford the treatment.

It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up to our

genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it.  There are a number of

serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed often lead to early

death.

In the end it may not  matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents did

not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow older?

 

Hobman wrote:

> Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a grain

of salt

>I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were *competitive*

runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men and women who did

brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a week. Dr. Giarnella is

right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that he or she could compete

as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard that training is. If I

recall correctly, a person who isn't currently training as an endurance athlete

can maintain a power output of maybe 60% of VO2max for 20 minutes. A

competitive endurance athlete can maintain a power output of about 85% of VO2max

and is able to sustain that for an hour or more. A person who hasn't gotten

himself in shape to do a workout like that has no idea how much greater the

suffering is at 85% of VO2max versus 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of

discomfort is based on power output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't suffer

as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's sport always

looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I understand how much

suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand that I have no idea how

much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting or C & J'ing three times my body

weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best are lifting about three times body

weight for those lifts in my weight bracket.)

That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature of its

argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level workouts,

or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because they were

genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the latter is a

necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a competitive level

in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners get knee and hip

problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get back, neck and wrist

problems, just for instance.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

Interesting study. I'm surprised the authors didn't point out to the

further relationship between hours of exercise and explosive performance.

Using the data published in the article I drew up the chart you can

download at http://bit.ly/suvAr4. I think if they had run a multi-variate

analysis they would have come up with a much higher correlation.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> The following article is very appropriate for this discussion. Anyone

> interested in this topic should access the original article. I include just

> a short conclusion found at the end of the article.

>

> The article looked at athletes who trained for sprinting and who continued

> their training into old age. Despite the continued high intensity

> training they suffered a considerable loss in the size of their typeII

> fast twitch muscle fibers.

> *********************************************************

> American Physiological Society

> Journal of Applied Physiology

> 1.

> Aging, muscle fiber type, and contractile function in sprint-trained

> athletes

> Marko T. Korhonen,1,4 Cristea,2Markku Alén,1,4Keijo

> Häkkinen,3Sarianna Sipilä,1,4Antti Mero,3Jukka T. Viitasalo,5Lars

> Larsson,2,*and Harri Suominen1,4,*

> 1Department of Healt

>

> http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/906.short

>

> In conclusion, the present results suggest that highly trained competitive

> sprint runners experience the typical aging-associated reduction in the

> size of fast fibers, shift toward a slower MHC isoform profile, and lower

> Voin muscle cells expressing the type I MHC isoform, playing a role in the

> decline in explosive force-production capacity. On the other hand, our

> master sprinters demonstrated considerably larger fiber size, intact

> maximum force normalized to cross-sectional area at the single muscle fiber

> level, and higher maximal and explosive strength characteristics than those

> previously reported for untrained older people. It is likely, therefore,

> that systematic sprint training is an effective stimulus in maintaining

> muscle fiber structure and force-production characteristics during aging.

> Although our findings are not directly applicable to untrained people, they

> tend to favor the view that, to minimize the effect of aging on the

> neuromuscular

> system, optimal overall physical training might require actions that

> impose explosive-type overload on muscle.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

> ________________________________

> From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:21 AM

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> older?

>

>

>

> We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise

> until the cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of frailty in

> old age lies in various disease states that begin earlier in life and

> greatly affect an individuals ability to be physically active.

>

> (frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in health

> or body (especially from old age))

>

> Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint problems.

> All to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.

>

> While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

> deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be aggravated

> with activity, particularly weight bearing activities.

>

> Another common impediment is copd/emphysema. Limited respiratory capacity

> greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active.

>

> Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many situations

> physical activity is great for rehabilitation.

>

> There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is often a

> significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's society

> of mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has

> become a way of life.

>

> In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a great

> success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every day.

> Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to a

> local gym where they might take up resistance training using the various

> machines available however for the most part they tend to take up the

> treadmill or exercise bike or some other form of CR exercise such as

> elipticals and stair steppers.

>

> While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as being

> not worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major step

> up. For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

> progression of their disease.

>

> I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

> hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )

> simply through walking and modifying their diet. I have had patients lose

> from 50-100 lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification. No

> magic pills, no magic diet.

>

> For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for

> numerous reasons.

>

> We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with

> electricity and the internal combustion engine.

> I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

> ________________________________

> From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

> Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> older?

>

>

> In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging

> brings with it. In my experience genetics trumps everything. If you have

> good genetics you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw it

> up with a bad lifestyle.

>

> I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few

> dozen nonagenarians and hundreds of octogenarians. The common thread: the

> vast majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had

> relatives who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran

> marathons or rode bicycles. One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well into

> her 80s.

>

> Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two

> were thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were

> perfectly capable of caring for themselves. One weighed 100 lbs soaking

> wet but had been " thin " all her life.

>

> The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

> obstruction and refused surgery. Her son is is still patient of mine. He

> is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago. He delivered

> mail, when they had to walk their routes. The only exercise he has ever

> done is walk. He still walks. He is a little overweight, lives by himself

> and travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well

> make it 100.

>

> The third centenarian died just short of 102. Her biggest complaint was

> back pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis. She lived alone and cooked

> and cleaned her own home. In her late 90s she often complained that she

> was unable to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.

>

> One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s and

> is still working. His only exercise is walking and playing pool. He is

> not frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His

> major complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17

> years younger. Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his

> testosterone levels but he declined because he did not feel he could afford

> the treatment.

>

> It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up to

> our genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it. There are a

> number of serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed often

> lead to early death.

>

> In the end it may not matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents

> did not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

> ________________________________

> From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

> Supertraining

> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

> Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> older?

>

>

> Hobman wrote:

>

> > Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

>

> For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a

> grain of salt

>

> >I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> > simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> > combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> > just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

>

> Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were

> *competitive* runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men and

> women who did brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a week.

> Dr. Giarnella is right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that he

> or she could compete as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard

> that training is. If I recall correctly, a person who isn't currently

> training as an endurance athlete can maintain a power output of maybe 60%

> of VO2max for 20 minutes. A competitive endurance athlete can maintain a

> power output of about 85% of VO2max and is able to sustain that for an hour

> or more. A person who hasn't gotten himself in shape to do a workout like

> that has no idea how much greater the suffering is at 85% of VO2max versus

> 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of discomfort is based on power

> output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

>

> Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't

> suffer as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's

> sport always looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I

> understand how much suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand

> that I have no idea how much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting or

> C & J'ing three times my body weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best are

> lifting about three times body weight for those lifts in my weight bracket.)

>

> That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature of

> its argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level

> workouts, or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because

> they were genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the latter

> is a necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a

> competitive level in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners

> get knee and hip problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get

> back, neck and wrist problems, just for instance.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting graph. Is there any indication that increasing exercise levels

above 6 hours a week, as one exceeds 50 years, increases explosive

performance, or is it all down hill from here on in?

Kendall Chew.

Cheshire, UK.

On 8 December 2011 11:42, Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> Interesting study. I'm surprised the authors didn't point out to the

> further relationship between hours of exercise and explosive performance.

> Using the data published in the article I drew up the chart you can

> download at http://bit.ly/suvAr4. I think if they had run a multi-variate

> analysis they would have come up with a much higher correlation.

> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

>

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

>

> > **

>

> >

> >

> > The following article is very appropriate for this discussion. Anyone

> > interested in this topic should access the original article. I include

> just

> > a short conclusion found at the end of the article.

> >

> > The article looked at athletes who trained for sprinting and who

> continued

> > their training into old age. Despite the continued high intensity

> > training they suffered a considerable loss in the size of their typeII

> > fast twitch muscle fibers.

> > *********************************************************

> > American Physiological Society

> > Journal of Applied Physiology

> > 1.

> > Aging, muscle fiber type, and contractile function in sprint-trained

> > athletes

> > Marko T. Korhonen,1,4 Cristea,2Markku Alén,1,4Keijo

> > Häkkinen,3Sarianna Sipilä,1,4Antti Mero,3Jukka T. Viitasalo,5Lars

> > Larsson,2,*and Harri Suominen1,4,*

> > 1Department of Healt

> >

> > http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/906.short

> >

> > In conclusion, the present results suggest that highly trained

> competitive

> > sprint runners experience the typical aging-associated reduction in the

> > size of fast fibers, shift toward a slower MHC isoform profile, and lower

> > Voin muscle cells expressing the type I MHC isoform, playing a role in

> the

> > decline in explosive force-production capacity. On the other hand, our

> > master sprinters demonstrated considerably larger fiber size, intact

> > maximum force normalized to cross-sectional area at the single muscle

> fiber

> > level, and higher maximal and explosive strength characteristics than

> those

> > previously reported for untrained older people. It is likely, therefore,

> > that systematic sprint training is an effective stimulus in maintaining

> > muscle fiber structure and force-production characteristics during aging.

> > Although our findings are not directly applicable to untrained people,

> they

> > tend to favor the view that, to minimize the effect of aging on the

> > neuromuscular

> > system, optimal overall physical training might require actions that

> > impose explosive-type overload on muscle.

> >

> > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > Southington Ct. USA

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:21 AM

> >

> > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> grow

> > older?

> >

> >

> >

> > We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise

> > until the cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of frailty

> in

> > old age lies in various disease states that begin earlier in life and

> > greatly affect an individuals ability to be physically active.

> >

> > (frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in health

> > or body (especially from old age))

> >

> > Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint problems.

> > All to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.

> >

> > While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

> > deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be

> aggravated

> > with activity, particularly weight bearing activities.

> >

> > Another common impediment is copd/emphysema. Limited respiratory capacity

> > greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active.

> >

> > Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many situations

> > physical activity is great for rehabilitation.

> >

> > There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is often

> a

> > significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's

> society

> > of mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has

> > become a way of life.

> >

> > In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a great

> > success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every

> day.

> > Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to a

> > local gym where they might take up resistance training using the various

> > machines available however for the most part they tend to take up the

> > treadmill or exercise bike or some other form of CR exercise such as

> > elipticals and stair steppers.

> >

> > While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as

> being

> > not worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major

> step

> > up. For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

> > progression of their disease.

> >

> > I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

> > hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )

> > simply through walking and modifying their diet. I have had patients lose

> > from 50-100 lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification. No

> > magic pills, no magic diet.

> >

> > For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for

> > numerous reasons.

> >

> > We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with

> > electricity and the internal combustion engine.

> > I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

> >

> > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > Southington Ct. USA

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

> > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> grow

> > older?

> >

> >

> > In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging

> > brings with it. In my experience genetics trumps everything. If you have

> > good genetics you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw

> it

> > up with a bad lifestyle.

> >

> > I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few

> > dozen nonagenarians and hundreds of octogenarians. The common thread: the

> > vast majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had

> > relatives who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran

> > marathons or rode bicycles. One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well

> into

> > her 80s.

> >

> > Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two

> > were thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were

> > perfectly capable of caring for themselves. One weighed 100 lbs soaking

> > wet but had been " thin " all her life.

> >

> > The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

> > obstruction and refused surgery. Her son is is still patient of mine. He

> > is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago. He delivered

> > mail, when they had to walk their routes. The only exercise he has ever

> > done is walk. He still walks. He is a little overweight, lives by himself

> > and travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well

> > make it 100.

> >

> > The third centenarian died just short of 102. Her biggest complaint was

> > back pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis. She lived alone and cooked

> > and cleaned her own home. In her late 90s she often complained that she

> > was unable to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.

> >

> > One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s

> and

> > is still working. His only exercise is walking and playing pool. He is

> > not frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His

> > major complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17

> > years younger. Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his

> > testosterone levels but he declined because he did not feel he could

> afford

> > the treatment.

> >

> > It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up

> to

> > our genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it. There are a

> > number of serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed

> often

> > lead to early death.

> >

> > In the end it may not matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents

> > did not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

> >

> > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > Southington Ct. USA

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

> > Supertraining

> > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

> > Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> > older?

> >

> >

> > Hobman wrote:

> >

> > > Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

> >

> > For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a

> > grain of salt

> >

> > >I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> > > simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> > > combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> > > just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

> >

> > Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were

> > *competitive* runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men

> and

> > women who did brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a

> week.

> > Dr. Giarnella is right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that

> he

> > or she could compete as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard

> > that training is. If I recall correctly, a person who isn't currently

> > training as an endurance athlete can maintain a power output of maybe 60%

> > of VO2max for 20 minutes. A competitive endurance athlete can maintain a

> > power output of about 85% of VO2max and is able to sustain that for an

> hour

> > or more. A person who hasn't gotten himself in shape to do a workout like

> > that has no idea how much greater the suffering is at 85% of VO2max

> versus

> > 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of discomfort is based on power

> > output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

> >

> > Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't

> > suffer as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's

> > sport always looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I

> > understand how much suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand

> > that I have no idea how much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting

> or

> > C & J'ing three times my body weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best

> are

> > lifting about three times body weight for those lifts in my weight

> bracket.)

> >

> > That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature

> of

> > its argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level

> > workouts, or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because

> > they were genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the

> latter

> > is a necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a

> > competitive level in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners

> > get knee and hip problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get

> > back, neck and wrist problems, just for instance.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > s

> > Ardmore, PA

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kendall,

I think to answer that we would need to get the details for all 91 people

in the sample. I'll try to ask the author and see.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Kendall Chew <chew.k3@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Interesting graph. Is there any indication that increasing exercise levels

> above 6 hours a week, as one exceeds 50 years, increases explosive

> performance, or is it all down hill from here on in?

>

> Kendall Chew.

> Cheshire, UK.

>

> On 8 December 2011 11:42, Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...

> >wrote:

>

> > **

>

> >

> >

> > Interesting study. I'm surprised the authors didn't point out to the

> > further relationship between hours of exercise and explosive performance.

> > Using the data published in the article I drew up the chart you can

> > download at http://bit.ly/suvAr4. I think if they had run a

> multi-variate

> > analysis they would have come up with a much higher correlation.

> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

> >

> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > > **

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > The following article is very appropriate for this discussion. Anyone

> > > interested in this topic should access the original article. I include

> > just

> > > a short conclusion found at the end of the article.

> > >

> > > The article looked at athletes who trained for sprinting and who

> > continued

> > > their training into old age. Despite the continued high intensity

> > > training they suffered a considerable loss in the size of their typeII

> > > fast twitch muscle fibers.

> > > *********************************************************

> > > American Physiological Society

> > > Journal of Applied Physiology

> > > 1.

> > > Aging, muscle fiber type, and contractile function in sprint-trained

> > > athletes

> > > Marko T. Korhonen,1,4 Cristea,2Markku Alén,1,4Keijo

> > > Häkkinen,3Sarianna Sipilä,1,4Antti Mero,3Jukka T. Viitasalo,5Lars

> > > Larsson,2,*and Harri Suominen1,4,*

> > > 1Department of Healt

> > >

> > > http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/906.short

> > >

> > > In conclusion, the present results suggest that highly trained

> > competitive

> > > sprint runners experience the typical aging-associated reduction in the

> > > size of fast fibers, shift toward a slower MHC isoform profile, and

> lower

> > > Voin muscle cells expressing the type I MHC isoform, playing a role in

> > the

> > > decline in explosive force-production capacity. On the other hand, our

> > > master sprinters demonstrated considerably larger fiber size, intact

> > > maximum force normalized to cross-sectional area at the single muscle

> > fiber

> > > level, and higher maximal and explosive strength characteristics than

> > those

> > > previously reported for untrained older people. It is likely,

> therefore,

> > > that systematic sprint training is an effective stimulus in maintaining

> > > muscle fiber structure and force-production characteristics during

> aging.

> > > Although our findings are not directly applicable to untrained people,

> > they

> > > tend to favor the view that, to minimize the effect of aging on the

> > > neuromuscular

> > > system, optimal overall physical training might require actions that

> > > impose explosive-type overload on muscle.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:21 AM

> > >

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> > grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise

> > > until the cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of

> frailty

> > in

> > > old age lies in various disease states that begin earlier in life and

> > > greatly affect an individuals ability to be physically active.

> > >

> > > (frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in

> health

> > > or body (especially from old age))

> > >

> > > Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint

> problems.

> > > All to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.

> > >

> > > While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

> > > deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be

> > aggravated

> > > with activity, particularly weight bearing activities.

> > >

> > > Another common impediment is copd/emphysema. Limited respiratory

> capacity

> > > greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active.

> > >

> > > Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many

> situations

> > > physical activity is great for rehabilitation.

> > >

> > > There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is

> often

> > a

> > > significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's

> > society

> > > of mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has

> > > become a way of life.

> > >

> > > In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a

> great

> > > success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every

> > day.

> > > Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to

> a

> > > local gym where they might take up resistance training using the

> various

> > > machines available however for the most part they tend to take up the

> > > treadmill or exercise bike or some other form of CR exercise such as

> > > elipticals and stair steppers.

> > >

> > > While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as

> > being

> > > not worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major

> > step

> > > up. For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

> > > progression of their disease.

> > >

> > > I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

> > > hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )

> > > simply through walking and modifying their diet. I have had patients

> lose

> > > from 50-100 lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification.

> No

> > > magic pills, no magic diet.

> > >

> > > For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for

> > > numerous reasons.

> > >

> > > We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with

> > > electricity and the internal combustion engine.

> > > I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> > grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > > In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging

> > > brings with it. In my experience genetics trumps everything. If you

> have

> > > good genetics you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you

> screw

> > it

> > > up with a bad lifestyle.

> > >

> > > I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few

> > > dozen nonagenarians and hundreds of octogenarians. The common thread:

> the

> > > vast majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all

> had

> > > relatives who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights,

> ran

> > > marathons or rode bicycles. One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well

> > into

> > > her 80s.

> > >

> > > Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and

> two

> > > were thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were

> > > perfectly capable of caring for themselves. One weighed 100 lbs soaking

> > > wet but had been " thin " all her life.

> > >

> > > The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

> > > obstruction and refused surgery. Her son is is still patient of mine.

> He

> > > is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago. He

> delivered

> > > mail, when they had to walk their routes. The only exercise he has ever

> > > done is walk. He still walks. He is a little overweight, lives by

> himself

> > > and travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very

> well

> > > make it 100.

> > >

> > > The third centenarian died just short of 102. Her biggest complaint was

> > > back pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis. She lived alone and

> cooked

> > > and cleaned her own home. In her late 90s she often complained that she

> > > was unable to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at

> 100.

> > >

> > > One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s

> > and

> > > is still working. His only exercise is walking and playing pool. He is

> > > not frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His

> > > major complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17

> > > years younger. Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test

> his

> > > testosterone levels but he declined because he did not feel he could

> > afford

> > > the treatment.

> > >

> > > It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up

> > to

> > > our genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it. There are a

> > > number of serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed

> > often

> > > lead to early death.

> > >

> > > In the end it may not matter whether we lift, ride or run if our

> parents

> > > did not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

> > > Supertraining

> > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

> > > Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > > Hobman wrote:

> > >

> > > > Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

> > >

> > > For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with

> a

> > > grain of salt

> > >

> > > >I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> > > > simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> > > > combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> > > > just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

> > >

> > > Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were

> > > *competitive* runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men

> > and

> > > women who did brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a

> > week.

> > > Dr. Giarnella is right that if a person hasn't trained to the point

> that

> > he

> > > or she could compete as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how

> hard

> > > that training is. If I recall correctly, a person who isn't currently

> > > training as an endurance athlete can maintain a power output of maybe

> 60%

> > > of VO2max for 20 minutes. A competitive endurance athlete can maintain

> a

> > > power output of about 85% of VO2max and is able to sustain that for an

> > hour

> > > or more. A person who hasn't gotten himself in shape to do a workout

> like

> > > that has no idea how much greater the suffering is at 85% of VO2max

> > versus

> > > 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of discomfort is based on power

> > > output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

> > >

> > > Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes

> don't

> > > suffer as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's

> > > sport always looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I

> > > understand how much suffering is involved in doing that, so I

> understand

> > > that I have no idea how much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting

> > or

> > > C & J'ing three times my body weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best

> > are

> > > lifting about three times body weight for those lifts in my weight

> > bracket.)

> > >

> > > That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature

> > of

> > > its argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their

> high-level

> > > workouts, or were they able to continue their high-level workouts

> because

> > > they were genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the

> > latter

> > > is a necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a

> > > competitive level in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond.

> Runners

> > > get knee and hip problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get

> > > back, neck and wrist problems, just for instance.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > s

> > > Ardmore, PA

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I don't think the point was that exercise duration is the key factor as much as

deterioration due to age is multifactoral and complex.

For example, Coach Abadjiev of Bulgaria stressed intensity over volume in

training weightlifters.

As people age, their training changes. Is the deterioration due to aging or the

fact they are training differently and less effectively? Training differently,

in this case, is measured by duration and if duration is an indicator of how

focused they are on training - they are less focused.

I think this is critical. And motivations for training are critical. If

sprinters are motivated by extrinsic goals the fact is they don't have to

perform as well to finish in the same position is a typical race.

If it is intrinsic - well, there are considerations there too. As we age are we

as concerned about excellence in sprinting or more concerned about general

health? Due relationships become more important - and do we focus more time on

them?

I really appreciated this download - as an aging person who enjoys competition I

recognize my performance will decline with age. But I also know I can do a lot

of things about it.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

On 12/8/11 3:31 PM, Kendall Chew wrote:

> Interesting graph. Is there any indication that increasing exercise levels

> above 6 hours a week, as one exceeds 50 years, increases explosive

> performance, or is it all down hill from here on in?

>

> Kendall Chew.

> Cheshire, UK.

>

> On 8 December 2011 11:42, Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...>wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Interesting study. I'm surprised the authors didn't point out to the

> > further relationship between hours of exercise and explosive performance.

> > Using the data published in the article I drew up the chart you can

> > download at http://bit.ly/suvAr4. I think if they had run a multi-variate

> > analysis they would have come up with a much higher correlation.

> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

> >

> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

> >

> > > **

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > The following article is very appropriate for this discussion. Anyone

> > > interested in this topic should access the original article. I include

> > just

> > > a short conclusion found at the end of the article.

> > >

> > > The article looked at athletes who trained for sprinting and who

> > continued

> > > their training into old age. Despite the continued high intensity

> > > training they suffered a considerable loss in the size of their typeII

> > > fast twitch muscle fibers.

> > > *********************************************************

> > > American Physiological Society

> > > Journal of Applied Physiology

> > > 1.

> > > Aging, muscle fiber type, and contractile function in sprint-trained

> > > athletes

> > > Marko T. Korhonen,1,4 Cristea,2Markku Alén,1,4Keijo

> > > Häkkinen,3Sarianna Sipilä,1,4Antti Mero,3Jukka T. Viitasalo,5Lars

> > > Larsson,2,*and Harri Suominen1,4,*

> > > 1Department of Healt

> > >

> > > http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/906.short

> > >

> > > In conclusion, the present results suggest that highly trained

> > competitive

> > > sprint runners experience the typical aging-associated reduction in the

> > > size of fast fibers, shift toward a slower MHC isoform profile, and lower

> > > Voin muscle cells expressing the type I MHC isoform, playing a role in

> > the

> > > decline in explosive force-production capacity. On the other hand, our

> > > master sprinters demonstrated considerably larger fiber size, intact

> > > maximum force normalized to cross-sectional area at the single muscle

> > fiber

> > > level, and higher maximal and explosive strength characteristics than

> > those

> > > previously reported for untrained older people. It is likely, therefore,

> > > that systematic sprint training is an effective stimulus in maintaining

> > > muscle fiber structure and force-production characteristics during aging.

> > > Although our findings are not directly applicable to untrained people,

> > they

> > > tend to favor the view that, to minimize the effect of aging on the

> > > neuromuscular

> > > system, optimal overall physical training might require actions that

> > > impose explosive-type overload on muscle.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:21 AM

> > >

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> > grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise

> > > until the cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of frailty

> > in

> > > old age lies in various disease states that begin earlier in life and

> > > greatly affect an individuals ability to be physically active.

> > >

> > > (frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in health

> > > or body (especially from old age))

> > >

> > > Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint problems.

> > > All to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.

> > >

> > > While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

> > > deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be

> > aggravated

> > > with activity, particularly weight bearing activities.

> > >

> > > Another common impediment is copd/emphysema. Limited respiratory capacity

> > > greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active.

> > >

> > > Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many situations

> > > physical activity is great for rehabilitation.

> > >

> > > There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is often

> > a

> > > significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's

> > society

> > > of mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has

> > > become a way of life.

> > >

> > > In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a great

> > > success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every

> > day.

> > > Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to a

> > > local gym where they might take up resistance training using the various

> > > machines available however for the most part they tend to take up the

> > > treadmill or exercise bike or some other form of CR exercise such as

> > > elipticals and stair steppers.

> > >

> > > While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as

> > being

> > > not worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major

> > step

> > > up. For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

> > > progression of their disease.

> > >

> > > I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

> > > hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )

> > > simply through walking and modifying their diet. I have had patients lose

> > > from 50-100 lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification. No

> > > magic pills, no magic diet.

> > >

> > > For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for

> > > numerous reasons.

> > >

> > > We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with

> > > electricity and the internal combustion engine.

> > > I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> > grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > > In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging

> > > brings with it. In my experience genetics trumps everything. If you have

> > > good genetics you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw

> > it

> > > up with a bad lifestyle.

> > >

> > > I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few

> > > dozen nonagenarians and hundreds of octogenarians. The common thread: the

> > > vast majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had

> > > relatives who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran

> > > marathons or rode bicycles. One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well

> > into

> > > her 80s.

> > >

> > > Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two

> > > were thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were

> > > perfectly capable of caring for themselves. One weighed 100 lbs soaking

> > > wet but had been " thin " all her life.

> > >

> > > The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

> > > obstruction and refused surgery. Her son is is still patient of mine. He

> > > is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago. He delivered

> > > mail, when they had to walk their routes. The only exercise he has ever

> > > done is walk. He still walks. He is a little overweight, lives by himself

> > > and travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well

> > > make it 100.

> > >

> > > The third centenarian died just short of 102. Her biggest complaint was

> > > back pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis. She lived alone and cooked

> > > and cleaned her own home. In her late 90s she often complained that she

> > > was unable to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.

> > >

> > > One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s

> > and

> > > is still working. His only exercise is walking and playing pool. He is

> > > not frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His

> > > major complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17

> > > years younger. Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his

> > > testosterone levels but he declined because he did not feel he could

> > afford

> > > the treatment.

> > >

> > > It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up

> > to

> > > our genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it. There are a

> > > number of serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed

> > often

> > > lead to early death.

> > >

> > > In the end it may not matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents

> > > did not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

> > > Supertraining

> > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

> > > Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > > Hobman wrote:

> > >

> > > > Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

> > >

> > > For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a

> > > grain of salt

> > >

> > > >I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> > > > simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> > > > combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> > > > just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

> > >

> > > Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were

> > > *competitive* runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men

> > and

> > > women who did brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a

> > week.

> > > Dr. Giarnella is right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that

> > he

> > > or she could compete as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard

> > > that training is. If I recall correctly, a person who isn't currently

> > > training as an endurance athlete can maintain a power output of maybe 60%

> > > of VO2max for 20 minutes. A competitive endurance athlete can maintain a

> > > power output of about 85% of VO2max and is able to sustain that for an

> > hour

> > > or more. A person who hasn't gotten himself in shape to do a workout like

> > > that has no idea how much greater the suffering is at 85% of VO2max

> > versus

> > > 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of discomfort is based on power

> > > output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

> > >

> > > Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't

> > > suffer as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's

> > > sport always looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I

> > > understand how much suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand

> > > that I have no idea how much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting

> > or

> > > C & J'ing three times my body weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best

> > are

> > > lifting about three times body weight for those lifts in my weight

> > bracket.)

> > >

> > > That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature

> > of

> > > its argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level

> > > workouts, or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because

> > > they were genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the

> > latter

> > > is a necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a

> > > competitive level in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners

> > > get knee and hip problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get

> > > back, neck and wrist problems, just for instance.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > s

> > > Ardmore, PA

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

In this discussion let us not forget the NATURAL decrease in Testosterone, HGH

etc.  These have a significant effect on our ability to work and recover from

previous work.  We peak in testosterone somewhere in our 20-30s.

Other factors such as hardening of the arteries causing decrease in blood flow

and decrease in NO etc. There are many reasons why 70 yo cannot work as hard or

as long as they did when they were in their 30s and 40s. 

At soon to be 71 I have the motivation to work hard but my body will not let me.

My brain thinks I am 30 by body reminds me every day that I am not. \

 Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA 

________________________________

From: Hobman <keith.hobman@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

 

I don't think the point was that exercise duration is the key factor as much as

deterioration due to age is multifactoral and complex.

For example, Coach Abadjiev of Bulgaria stressed intensity over volume in

training weightlifters.

As people age, their training changes. Is the deterioration due to aging or the

fact they are training differently and less effectively? Training differently,

in this case, is measured by duration and if duration is an indicator of how

focused they are on training - they are less focused.

I think this is critical. And motivations for training are critical. If

sprinters are motivated by extrinsic goals the fact is they don't have to

perform as well to finish in the same position is a typical race.

If it is intrinsic - well, there are considerations there too. As we age are we

as concerned about excellence in sprinting or more concerned about general

health? Due relationships become more important - and do we focus more time on

them?

I really appreciated this download - as an aging person who enjoys competition I

recognize my performance will decline with age. But I also know I can do a lot

of things about it.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

On 12/8/11 3:31 PM, Kendall Chew wrote:

> Interesting graph. Is there any indication that increasing exercise levels

> above 6 hours a week, as one exceeds 50 years, increases explosive

> performance, or is it all down hill from here on in?

>

> Kendall Chew.

> Cheshire, UK.

>

> On 8 December 2011 11:42, Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...>wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Interesting study. I'm surprised the authors didn't point out to the

> > further relationship between hours of exercise and explosive performance.

> > Using the data published in the article I drew up the chart you can

> > download at http://bit.ly/suvAr4. I think if they had run a multi-variate

> > analysis they would have come up with a much higher correlation.

> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

> >

> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

> >

> > > **

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > The following article is very appropriate for this discussion. Anyone

> > > interested in this topic should access the original article. I include

> > just

> > > a short conclusion found at the end of the article.

> > >

> > > The article looked at athletes who trained for sprinting and who

> > continued

> > > their training into old age. Despite the continued high intensity

> > > training they suffered a considerable loss in the size of their typeII

> > > fast twitch muscle fibers.

> > > *********************************************************

> > > American Physiological Society

> > > Journal of Applied Physiology

> > > 1.

> > > Aging, muscle fiber type, and contractile function in sprint-trained

> > > athletes

> > > Marko T. Korhonen,1,4 Cristea,2Markku Alén,1,4Keijo

> > > Häkkinen,3Sarianna Sipilä,1,4Antti Mero,3Jukka T. Viitasalo,5Lars

> > > Larsson,2,*and Harri Suominen1,4,*

> > > 1Department of Healt

> > >

> > > http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/906.short

> > >

> > > In conclusion, the present results suggest that highly trained

> > competitive

> > > sprint runners experience the typical aging-associated reduction in the

> > > size of fast fibers, shift toward a slower MHC isoform profile, and lower

> > > Voin muscle cells expressing the type I MHC isoform, playing a role in

> > the

> > > decline in explosive force-production capacity. On the other hand, our

> > > master sprinters demonstrated considerably larger fiber size, intact

> > > maximum force normalized to cross-sectional area at the single muscle

> > fiber

> > > level, and higher maximal and explosive strength characteristics than

> > those

> > > previously reported for untrained older people. It is likely, therefore,

> > > that systematic sprint training is an effective stimulus in maintaining

> > > muscle fiber structure and force-production characteristics during aging.

> > > Although our findings are not directly applicable to untrained people,

> > they

> > > tend to favor the view that, to minimize the effect of aging on the

> > > neuromuscular

> > > system, optimal overall physical training might require actions that

> > > impose explosive-type overload on muscle.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:21 AM

> > >

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> > grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > We can debate the merits of weight lifting vs other forms of exercise

> > > until the cows come home. The reality is that the major cause of frailty

> > in

> > > old age lies in various disease states that begin earlier in life and

> > > greatly affect an individuals ability to be physically active.

> > >

> > > (frailty as defined by the dictionary: the state of being weak in health

> > > or body (especially from old age))

> > >

> > > Perhaps the major impediment that I see in my practice is joint problems.

> > > All to often pain in the joints begins to limit activity.

> > >

> > > While rheumatoid related illness are improved with activity, joint

> > > deterioration, particularly of the lower extremities tends to be

> > aggravated

> > > with activity, particularly weight bearing activities.

> > >

> > > Another common impediment is copd/emphysema. Limited respiratory capacity

> > > greatly impacts on ones ability to be physically active.

> > >

> > > Cardiovascular issues can also limit activity although in many situations

> > > physical activity is great for rehabilitation.

> > >

> > > There is no questioning the fact that lack of physical activity is often

> > a

> > > significant contributing cause to frailty in old age and in today's

> > society

> > > of mechanization and labor saving devices lack of physical activity has

> > > become a way of life.

> > >

> > > In my every day experience in dealing with patients I consider it a great

> > > success if I can convince some one to " walk " 20-30 minutes a day every

> > day.

> > > Sometimes if someone takes up walking they may eventually gravitate to a

> > > local gym where they might take up resistance training using the various

> > > machines available however for the most part they tend to take up the

> > > treadmill or exercise bike or some other form of CR exercise such as

> > > elipticals and stair steppers.

> > >

> > > While many on this forum may look down on these forms of exercise as

> > being

> > > not worthy of their time, for the sedentary individual this is a major

> > step

> > > up. For many walking 20-30 minutes daily is often a game changer in the

> > > progression of their disease.

> > >

> > > I have a number patients who have totally reversed their diabetes and

> > > hypertension (to the point of elimination of medications altogether )

> > > simply through walking and modifying their diet. I have had patients lose

> > > from 50-100 lbs doing nothing more than walking and diet modification. No

> > > magic pills, no magic diet.

> > >

> > > For most, running cycling or weight lifting are not viable options for

> > > numerous reasons.

> > >

> > > We could solve a lot of medical problems if we simply did away with

> > > electricity and the internal combustion engine.

> > > I can't imagine the Mennonites opening a gym any time soon.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

> > > " Supertraining " <Supertraining >

> > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:36 AM

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we

> > grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > > In real life I deal with aging patients daily and the problems aging

> > > brings with it. In my experience genetics trumps everything. If you have

> > > good genetics you can live a healthy life into your 90+ unless you screw

> > it

> > > up with a bad lifestyle.

> > >

> > > I have had in my years of practice a number of centenarians and a few

> > > dozen nonagenarians and hundreds of octogenarians. The common thread: the

> > > vast majority were and are women. The next common thread is that all had

> > > relatives who lived well into their 90s. None of them lifted weights, ran

> > > marathons or rode bicycles. One of them, a salty old gal, smoked well

> > into

> > > her 80s.

> > >

> > > Of the centenarians, they were all women. One was short and obese and two

> > > were thin (but not frail) and all lived at home on their own and were

> > > perfectly capable of caring for themselves. One weighed 100 lbs soaking

> > > wet but had been " thin " all her life.

> > >

> > > The short obese patient lived to 102 and died because of an intestinal

> > > obstruction and refused surgery. Her son is is still patient of mine. He

> > > is in his mid-80s, retired as a postal worker 20 years ago. He delivered

> > > mail, when they had to walk their routes. The only exercise he has ever

> > > done is walk. He still walks. He is a little overweight, lives by himself

> > > and travels abroad several times a year. I suspect that he may very well

> > > make it 100.

> > >

> > > The third centenarian died just short of 102. Her biggest complaint was

> > > back pain, which was caused by osteoarthritis. She lived alone and cooked

> > > and cleaned her own home. In her late 90s she often complained that she

> > > was unable to keep up with her older sister who was still driving at 100.

> > >

> > > One patient that comes to mind is a male patient who is in his mid-80s

> > and

> > > is still working. His only exercise is walking and playing pool. He is

> > > not frail and if he dyed his hair he could be mistaken as a 60 yo. His

> > > major complaint is that he can't quite keep up with his wife who is 17

> > > years younger. Viagra does not quite cut it. I suggested that we test his

> > > testosterone levels but he declined because he did not feel he could

> > afford

> > > the treatment.

> > >

> > > It is my opinion that a good healthy lifestyle will allow us to live up

> > to

> > > our genetic potential but I doubt that we can exceed it. There are a

> > > number of serious diseases for which many are genetically predisposed

> > often

> > > lead to early death.

> > >

> > > In the end it may not matter whether we lift, ride or run if our parents

> > > did not pass on to us the good longevity genes.

> > >

> > > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > > Southington Ct. USA

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: pushprogress <pushprogress@...>

> > > Supertraining

> > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:45 AM

> > > Subject: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> > > older?

> > >

> > >

> > > Hobman wrote:

> > >

> > > > Interesting conclusion, which I suspect hinges on defining 'frailty'.

> > >

> > > For sure, which is why you and I always take statements like that with a

> > > grain of salt

> > >

> > > >I suspect there are better exercise or lifestyle choices than

> > > > simply running, cycling or swimming if the goal is

> > > > combating frailty due to aging. By this I mean it isn't enough

> > > > just to get on a stationary bike and pedal for 30 minutes a day.

> > >

> > > Agreed. And let's not forget that the subjects of the study were

> > > *competitive* runners, swimmers and cyclists. They were, I'm sure, men

> > and

> > > women who did brutal long and short interval workouts at least once a

> > week.

> > > Dr. Giarnella is right that if a person hasn't trained to the point that

> > he

> > > or she could compete as an endurance athlete, then he can't know how hard

> > > that training is. If I recall correctly, a person who isn't currently

> > > training as an endurance athlete can maintain a power output of maybe 60%

> > > of VO2max for 20 minutes. A competitive endurance athlete can maintain a

> > > power output of about 85% of VO2max and is able to sustain that for an

> > hour

> > > or more. A person who hasn't gotten himself in shape to do a workout like

> > > that has no idea how much greater the suffering is at 85% of VO2max

> > versus

> > > 60% of VO2max. (It's not like the level of discomfort is based on power

> > > output as a percentage of lactate threshhold.)

> > >

> > > Please understand, I'm not saying that strength and power athletes don't

> > > suffer as much as endurance athletes, but rather, that the other guy's

> > > sport always looks easier. Having deadlifted twice my bodyweight, I

> > > understand how much suffering is involved in doing that, so I understand

> > > that I have no idea how much more is involved in deadlifting, squatting

> > or

> > > C & J'ing three times my body weight. (I weigh 65kg, so the world's best

> > are

> > > lifting about three times body weight for those lifts in my weight

> > bracket.)

> > >

> > > That aside, I think the main problem the article is the circular nature

> > of

> > > its argument: did the subjects avoid frailty because of their high-level

> > > workouts, or were they able to continue their high-level workouts because

> > > they were genetically not frail? I think it's some of both, but the

> > latter

> > > is a necessary condition. Not everyone can continue to train at a

> > > competitive level in endurance sports into their 60s and beyond. Runners

> > > get knee and hip problems, swimmers get shoulder problems, cyclists get

> > > back, neck and wrist problems, just for instance.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > s

> > > Ardmore, PA

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I have read with interest all the posts in this discussion. I am 70.5

years old. I think Ralph G. MD stated that he would like to work long, but

his boy won't go along with what he wants to do. I just recently re

landscaped my back yard. In 90 degree heat. (live in FL) I had to a

landscape, or turn over the ground, pull all the grass, buy dirt and level

it. Then I put down about 160 16 x 16 inch pavers. Each paver weighing

about 25 30 pounds. It took me six Sat's about 8 hours each time. My low

back hurt, my knees hurt BUT the next morning felt fine.

I don.t have good genetics. My dad died of heart disease in his early 60's,

had diabetes and other problems I did not know about. My mom died in her

early 70.s suffered from Alzheimer's for two decades.

Me. I have been lifting weights and running since 1973. Still doing it. I

don't feel frail, don't act frail, and don't look or feel my age. I am

lifting the same weight now as I did in my 50's. What has changed is not my

desire, or my intent to beat my personal best, but the volume of my

training. I have read alot about that it takes longer to recover when you

are 70 than it did when you were 50 or younger.

I was really struggling with finding a routine I could stay with and which

would produce results. Nothing seemed to work for me.. Trust me I tried

a lot of different type of training.

I finally split my routine up to upper body and lower body. I worked upper

body and then two days later I worked lower body. Next week I repeated

the process. I did descending sets, this was I could lift the most weight

on the first set for 6 reps and work my way down with weight and up with

reps. I did this for six weeks and I really felt great, got a little

stronger, and loved it BUT I could not get over the fact that working

each muscle group once a week is enough.......

So I changed it up a bit. I now work the above routine, but on Monday I

do upper. On Wed I do lower,. On Fri I do upper and then continue on next

week. So now I am in the gym three days a weeks instead of two, still

loving it, but don't know how it will work out, but if anyone is interested

will let you know. For info purposes, lets say chest and back. I do three

exercises for each and three sets of each exercise. (9 sets for back and 9

sets for chest) that's all.

Very different but maybe very effective. I would like to hear from older

lifters, how they changes their exercises to accommodate their growing

older and what did and did not work for them. I cannot find to much

science on how to life for well trained lifters over 60.......Hopefully we

can help each other

C. Mark

Certified Personal Trainer

Certified Senior Fitness Training Specialist

Boynton Beach, FL

[Guest guest]

Mark thanks for the feed back- I am not implying that I cannot workout-  I

cannot do what I did when I was younger- I have been riding my bicycle in hills

of  Connecticut - 20+ miles daily in 30- 40 degree weather (approximately 2hrs

workout).  When I was younger I could ride longer and faster under the same

conditions.  My brain tells me I should be able to ride longer and faster. My

body disagrees.  

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA 

________________________________

From: Mark <mcm.fitness@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 2:51 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

 

I have read with interest all the posts in this discussion. I am 70.5

years old. I think Ralph G. MD stated that he would like to work long, but

his boy won't go along with what he wants to do. I just recently re

landscaped my back yard. In 90 degree heat. (live in FL) I had to a

landscape, or turn over the ground, pull all the grass, buy dirt and level

it. Then I put down about 160 16 x 16 inch pavers. Each paver weighing

about 25 30 pounds. It took me six Sat's about 8 hours each time. My low

back hurt, my knees hurt BUT the next morning felt fine.

I don.t have good genetics. My dad died of heart disease in his early 60's,

had diabetes and other problems I did not know about. My mom died in her

early 70.s suffered from Alzheimer's for two decades.

Me. I have been lifting weights and running since 1973. Still doing it. I

don't feel frail, don't act frail, and don't look or feel my age. I am

lifting the same weight now as I did in my 50's. What has changed is not my

desire, or my intent to beat my personal best, but the volume of my

training. I have read alot about that it takes longer to recover when you

are 70 than it did when you were 50 or younger.

I was really struggling with finding a routine I could stay with and which

would produce results. Nothing seemed to work for me.. Trust me I tried

a lot of different type of training.

I finally split my routine up to upper body and lower body. I worked upper

body and then two days later I worked lower body. Next week I repeated

the process. I did descending sets, this was I could lift the most weight

on the first set for 6 reps and work my way down with weight and up with

reps. I did this for six weeks and I really felt great, got a little

stronger, and loved it BUT I could not get over the fact that working

each muscle group once a week is enough.......

So I changed it up a bit. I now work the above routine, but on Monday I

do upper. On Wed I do lower,. On Fri I do upper and then continue on next

week. So now I am in the gym three days a weeks instead of two, still

loving it, but don't know how it will work out, but if anyone is interested

will let you know. For info purposes, lets say chest and back. I do three

exercises for each and three sets of each exercise. (9 sets for back and 9

sets for chest) that's all.

Very different but maybe very effective. I would like to hear from older

lifters, how they changes their exercises to accommodate their growing

older and what did and did not work for them. I cannot find to much

science on how to life for well trained lifters over 60.......Hopefully we

can help each other

C. Mark

Certified Personal Trainer

Certified Senior Fitness Training Specialist

Boynton Beach, FL

[Guest guest]

Giovanni,

It would certainly be interesting to find out. I suspect, though, there is

no real magic formula and the truth lies somewhere in what Ralph Giarnella

has to say.

Kendall Chew.

Cheshire UK.

On 11 December 2011 16:21, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Mark thanks for the feed back- I am not implying that I cannot workout- I

> cannot do what I did when I was younger- I have been riding my bicycle in

> hills of Connecticut - 20+ miles daily in 30- 40 degree weather

> (approximately 2hrs workout). When I was younger I could ride longer and

> faster under the same conditions. My brain tells me I should be able to

> ride longer and faster. My body disagrees.

>

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

> ________________________________

> From: Mark <mcm.fitness@...>

> Supertraining

> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 2:51 PM

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

> older?

>

>

>

> I have read with interest all the posts in this discussion. I am 70.5

> years old. I think Ralph G. MD stated that he would like to work long, but

> his boy won't go along with what he wants to do. I just recently re

> landscaped my back yard. In 90 degree heat. (live in FL) I had to a

> landscape, or turn over the ground, pull all the grass, buy dirt and level

> it. Then I put down about 160 16 x 16 inch pavers. Each paver weighing

> about 25 30 pounds. It took me six Sat's about 8 hours each time. My low

> back hurt, my knees hurt BUT the next morning felt fine.

>

> I don.t have good genetics. My dad died of heart disease in his early 60's,

> had diabetes and other problems I did not know about. My mom died in her

> early 70.s suffered from Alzheimer's for two decades.

>

> Me. I have been lifting weights and running since 1973. Still doing it. I

> don't feel frail, don't act frail, and don't look or feel my age. I am

> lifting the same weight now as I did in my 50's. What has changed is not my

> desire, or my intent to beat my personal best, but the volume of my

> training. I have read alot about that it takes longer to recover when you

> are 70 than it did when you were 50 or younger.

> I was really struggling with finding a routine I could stay with and which

> would produce results. Nothing seemed to work for me.. Trust me I tried

> a lot of different type of training.

>

> I finally split my routine up to upper body and lower body. I worked upper

> body and then two days later I worked lower body. Next week I repeated

> the process. I did descending sets, this was I could lift the most weight

> on the first set for 6 reps and work my way down with weight and up with

> reps. I did this for six weeks and I really felt great, got a little

> stronger, and loved it BUT I could not get over the fact that working

> each muscle group once a week is enough.......

>

> So I changed it up a bit. I now work the above routine, but on Monday I

> do upper. On Wed I do lower,. On Fri I do upper and then continue on next

> week. So now I am in the gym three days a weeks instead of two, still

> loving it, but don't know how it will work out, but if anyone is interested

> will let you know. For info purposes, lets say chest and back. I do three

> exercises for each and three sets of each exercise. (9 sets for back and 9

> sets for chest) that's all.

>

> Very different but maybe very effective. I would like to hear from older

> lifters, how they changes their exercises to accommodate their growing

> older and what did and did not work for them. I cannot find to much

> science on how to life for well trained lifters over 60.......Hopefully we

> can help each other

>

> C. Mark

> Certified Personal Trainer

> Certified Senior Fitness Training Specialist

> Boynton Beach, FL

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't train like that. I find that bodybuilding workouts make me feel over

trained and I lose strength.

I try to lift heavy but with less volume. I also vary my workouts. Some weeks

really heavy. Some weeks light. Some weeks moderately heavy.

My program might look something like:

Monday

Squats

Leg extensions

Abdominal work

Wednesday

Flat Bench Press

Pullups

Pull downs

Seated Rows

Thursday

Deadlift

Seated Shoulder Press

Rear Shoulder Laterals

Then there are weeks in which my program looks something like:

Wednesday

Flat Bench Press

Pullups

Pull downs

Barbell Squats

Dumbbell Deadlifts

Friday

Seated Shoulder Press or Dips

Rear Shoulder Laterals

Seated Rows

Body Weight Squats

Heavy Barbell Deadlifts

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

I have read with interest all the posts in this discussion. I am 70.5

years old. I think Ralph G. MD stated that he would like to work long, but

his boy won't go along with what he wants to do. I just recently re

landscaped my back yard. In 90 degree heat. (live in FL) I had to a

landscape, or turn over the ground, pull all the grass, buy dirt and level

it. Then I put down about 160 16 x 16 inch pavers. Each paver weighing

about 25 30 pounds. It took me six Sat's about 8 hours each time. My low

back hurt, my knees hurt BUT the next morning felt fine.

I don.t have good genetics. My dad died of heart disease in his early 60's,

had diabetes and other problems I did not know about. My mom died in her

early 70.s suffered from Alzheimer's for two decades.

Me. I have been lifting weights and running since 1973. Still doing it. I

don't feel frail, don't act frail, and don't look or feel my age. I am

lifting the same weight now as I did in my 50's. What has changed is not my

desire, or my intent to beat my personal best, but the volume of my

training. I have read alot about that it takes longer to recover when you

are 70 than it did when you were 50 or younger.

I was really struggling with finding a routine I could stay with and which

would produce results. Nothing seemed to work for me.. Trust me I tried

a lot of different type of training.

I finally split my routine up to upper body and lower body. I worked upper

body and then two days later I worked lower body. Next week I repeated

the process. I did descending sets, this was I could lift the most weight

on the first set for 6 reps and work my way down with weight and up with

reps. I did this for six weeks and I really felt great, got a little

stronger, and loved it BUT I could not get over the fact that working

each muscle group once a week is enough.......

So I changed it up a bit. I now work the above routine, but on Monday I

do upper. On Wed I do lower,. On Fri I do upper and then continue on next

week. So now I am in the gym three days a weeks instead of two, still

loving it, but don't know how it will work out, but if anyone is interested

will let you know. For info purposes, lets say chest and back. I do three

exercises for each and three sets of each exercise. (9 sets for back and 9

sets for chest) that's all.

Very different but maybe very effective. I would like to hear from older

lifters, how they changes their exercises to accommodate their growing

older and what did and did not work for them. I cannot find to much

science on how to life for well trained lifters over 60.......Hopefully we

can help each other

C. Mark

Certified Personal Trainer

Certified Senior Fitness Training Specialist

Boynton Beach, FL

[Guest guest]

Casler writes:

Hi Ralph, and Happy Holidays ALL SUPERTRAINERS

It seems to me that we have a couple levels of " aging " elements:

1) Systemic down regulations seemingly caused by the endocrine changes you

seem to point to in the article below

2) Cellular/DNA changes as suggested by the recent work in Telomeres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

Obviously as cells loose their ability to divide in a healthy and complete

manner, our ability to sustain a tissue suffers. I believe this is what the

Telomere Theorists believe.

Cellular depreciation and reduced function then also seems to reduce the

quality of health/performance from all the affected tissues including those

that produce and secrete the endocrine hormones in the quantity and balance

needed for health.

It seems to me that " if " these theorists are somewhat accurate, then we have

a substantial level of understanding into how and why we age. It would seem

also that this aging is built into markers on the DNA (genotype) and also

adjustable via personal and environmental factors (phenotype) and while we

can maximize our potential via lifestyle/environment, we currently cannot

stray outside it.

The diseases of aging which primarily hinge on the single element of

inflammation are reflective of the depreciation of the immune system, caused

by the reduced hormone balance, creation, and release. (as the immune system

relies on these hormones to function maximally) It can also be noted that

the immune response is INCREDIBLY COMPLEX and is dependant on the system

being able to " determine " the difference between healthy and valuable cells

and biomaterials, and those which are wastes and enemies. I believe that as

we experience many of these aging issues, we also begin to develop

significant " immune confusion " , which in turn causes a more " auto-immune "

response, meaning our immune system attacks and destroys healthy tissues,

while occasionally and more regularly missing the enemies.

Arthritis, Heart Disease and even Cancer can often be associated with

complications arising from hormonal imbalances that lead to excess, or

reduced hormone production and balance. High Insulin Spikes/Levels, High

Estrogens, Low Testosterone, various thyroid imbalances, and even the

creation of blood cells are often affected by these imbalances.

I would think at issue would be exploring how all these elements (primarily

Telomere Lengths Shortening during cell division, and the slowly changing

balance/profile of hormones) eventually cause us to become more " catabolic "

metabolically and start the march toward the diseases and ravages of aging

via less healthy cellular divisions, and inflammations that cause our immune

systems to slowly destroy us while NOT protecting us.

Just a thought on my part.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems

Century City, CA

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Re: Re: Is physical frailty inevitable as we grow

older?

I came across the following review which might help understand some aspects

of growing older.  The review is from a subscription Medical service called

Uptodate and is not available in scientific publications.  It is a review of

scientific publications. The article is 12 pages.

Below is a general summary:

 Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

Endocrine changes with aging

 This topic last updated: October 16, 2009

INTRODUCTION — Since the 19th century there have been sporadic attempts to

attribute the changes of aging to one or another endocrine deficit and

efforts to reverse these changes with a variety of endocrine therapies. This

search for a hormonal " fountain of youth " continues today with, as an

example, the widespread use of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) as a

" nutritional supplement. " Of greater clinical significance is the increasing

practice of " off-label " prescribing of human growth hormone (hGH) and potent

androgenic steroids for age-related declines in GH/IGF-I and testosterone,

termed respectively, " somatopause " and " andropause. " The evidence for

age-related changes in endocrine function and their clinical consequences

are reviewed here; disease-related changes are discussed only briefly.

PHYSIOLOGY OF AGING — The complexity of the aging process precludes

simplistic formulations that equate aging with hormone deficiency.

Biological aging is characterized by a progressive, and, to a large extent,

predictable loss of coordinated cell and tissue function, such that the

organism becomes gradually less fit to reproduce and survive. The rate of

this process is species-specific and changes are manifested across multiple

organs and systems. Deterioration of function is heterogeneous among systems

and individuals and is detectable first as a loss of reserve capacity and

ability to restore homeostasis under stress, then later by altered function

at rest.

The basic mechanisms underlying aging are unknown. The best available

evidence is consistent with the accumulation of a variety of (unrepaired)

biochemical alterations that impair the function of nucleic acids, proteins,

and lipid membranes. These alterations probably include oxidation by free

radicals [1], but also non-enzymatic glycosylation [2], and epigenetic

changes such as DNA methylation and histone acetylation [3]. The extent to

which differentiated cells are affected by aging determines physiological

function, while the extent to which stem cells are affected determines the

capacity to replace damaged cells and repair tissues [4].

A well-described phenomenon of aging is a widely distributed deterioration

of signal transduction efficiency. Examples include a reduction in the

vasodilatory response of the endothelium to estrogen, possibly related to

the progressive methylation of the estrogen receptor gene (an epigenetic

change) [5], and reduced Leydig cell responsiveness to gonadotropin

stimulation (probably due to altered cell membrane biochemistry) [6,7].

Endocrine changes — In considering changes in endocrine function in older

people, it is important to distinguish between the effects of aging per se

on endocrine physiology and those caused by age-related illness, given the

high prevalence of disorders, both symptomatic and asymptomatic, in the

elderly. The distinction is simple in concept but not in practice.

As a practical approach, an endocrine change that occurs in a significant

fraction of older persons, especially if it can be documented in persons

with no identifiable serious chronic illness, is likely to be due to aging.

On the other hand, when a change occurs in a small minority of older

persons, it is probably disease-related.

The distinction between what is age-related and what is disease-related is

difficult due to the problem of defining study populations free of

age-related illnesses as " normal. " Individuals do not all age at the same

rate so that unusually healthy older populations may be biased toward

individuals who are biologically " younger " than their chronologic age.

The distinction between age- and disease-related changes does not

necessarily determine therapeutic intervention; as an example, one may offer

treatment for the hormonal changes of menopause but not for subclinical

hypothyroidism. (See " Treatment of menopausal symptoms with hormone

therapy "  and " Subclinical hypothyroidism " .) It is currently unclear whether

treatment of many of the age-related endocrine changes is beneficial [8].

Several general comments about endocrine changes with aging are relevant:

* The only endocrine system for which there is a well-defined,

abrupt, and universal change in function with age is the

hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in women.

* The function of the growth hormone-insulin-like growth factor

1(IGF-1) system, the male hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, and the

portion (zona reticularis) of the adrenal cortex that synthesizes

dehydroepiandrosterone all decline progressively with age in most people.

Age-adjusted ranges of normal values for serum IGF-1, total and free or

bioavailable testosterone, and dehydroepiandrosterone concentrations can be

defined, but whether these values are physiologically optimal is unknown.

* The secretion of some other hormones is also altered with age, but

changes are much less predictable, and there are no well-defined,

age-adjusted normal values.

* The action of some hormones decreases with age; increased hormonal

secretion may or may not compensate for such decreases in tissue

responsiveness.

*