Re: Super-slow practice and skill development

[Guest guest]

On May 1, 2010, at 12:14 PM, carruthersjam wrote:

> Members may enjoy reading:

>

> http://thetalentcode.com/2009/10/15/slow-is-beautiful/

>

> One question that pops up often: why does super-slow practice work

> so well? After all, we see it over and over in the talent hotbeds,

> where it's used to learn everything from algebra to tennis to

> writing. And yet slow practice grates against our instincts. Speed

> is good, right? Shouldn't we always push ourselves to go faster,

> faster, faster?

Telle: Super slow works because the athlete, or whoever, can make

mental pictures of the movements in slower, then faster imagination

speeds. I would bet that each stage of learning is its own independent

behavior neural circuit when done in stages. The athlete should stay

at each stage? until they can see/feel the movement, then faster speed

and etc until full speed and integrations are accomplished. If the

athlete can see the execution flash before the movement all the

better. That is, be able to Predict what is about to happen -- we do

nothing without these predictions.

Tiger Woods learned by watching his father golfing and could

apparently swing almost perfectly, speed and all at age 3?4?5? The

discovery channel showed an example of another child, apparently 1 or

#? trial) learning by watching Tiger Woods on TV and his father. His

father couldn't explain how his son picked it up. His hero is Woods.

When imitation learning -- if the model is a highly respected athlete

the learning speed is profound. My impression is that the golf swing

is a lot easier to learn than a shot or discus execution!?

>

> Here's the deal: super-slow practice works because practice is about

> construction. We are literally building a neural circuit —

> connection by connection. Slowing down lets us pay deeper attention

> to those connections; it lets us fire the circuit more accurately.

> Super-slow practice allows us to not only perform the action, but to

> also simultaneously observe that performance; to coach ourselves.

> When we go fast, on the other hand, we are only performing.

Telle -- as above, the entire movement can be learned without stages

-- one step imitation learning (for certain gifted? individuals). I

believe that when ever possible the stages be eliminated in favor of

one step imagination learning.

The next challenge is for coaches and everyone else is to come up

with various methods for this learning. I have long promoted the idea

of holligraphic(sp?) modeling. I know this to be the case because I

can see/feel/experience this process as it happens (after about 25

years of putting it all together). Mel used to call these ideas

" silly " ? Apparently he could not " see " /experience this phenom.

If I were still coaching the shot, discus, weight training and foot

balI, I would somehow create the best visual learning envoirn possible

and work from there. I also believe that when using the proggressive

steps method -- if needed -- would include the athlete NOT do the

segment full speed practice until s/he could do it in their heads

first? -- be able to see it or experience it visually and or

kinesthetically before each movement practice trial.

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5vTfi0gtZ8 & feature=player_embedded

>

> I just came across a interesting new book: Slow Practice Will Get

> You There Faster, by Ernest Dras. Dras points to the above video,

> where we can watch all-time-great Ben Hogan perform his super-slow

> golf swing (check out the incredible fluidity and control Hogan

> displays at 1:45 and beyond; it looks like the film is slowed down,

> but as the waves in the background prove, it's pure Hogan). Dras

> points out that Mozart and his father did essentially the same thing.

Telle -- First, about the swing being actual speed, -- apparently you

mean that Hogan purposefully slowed the swing down (since it takes

about 5-6 seconds to complete from top to contact) Hitting the ball at

this speed, no matter how fluid, would result in a 8 foot distance

( (- ) Right, because the piano is infinitely harder for a 3 year

old -- the movements must also correspond with the right keys --

probably beyond a first stage learning. The hands of a pianist

probably move faster than visual learning processes can handle (though

I wouldn't bet on it).

>

> The elder Mozart would place ten dried peas in his son's left coat

> pocket, and for each successful attempt at a difficult passage,

> Mozart would move a single pea to his right pocket. When he failed

> on any piece, even if it was the tenth repetition, all the peas had

> to be placed back in his left pocket — Wolfgang had to begin anew.

> What usually happens when using this method is that the student

> slows down his tempo in order to play the passage perfectly.

Telle -- This is brilliant because both negative and positive

reinforcements are immediately used -- not just positive as most

practitioners stubbornly believe. I also remember reading that Wolfe's

father was a real B@ & %$# & d when teaching -- or was it Bethovens(sp)

The key with pos/neg reinforcement is that short term success is

predictable -- although sometimes the positive reward is relief from

the severity of negative penalties.

So Imitation first then, if needed, breakdown, slowdown and rehearse

-- always referring back to the inherent visual/experience processes?

>

> =====================

> Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

,

I believe the central issue is that skills are usually best acquired by

practicing them at a variety of submaximal speeds, for learning purposes.

'Super-slow' implies that there should be no intent to move quickly. With the

high accelerations and velocities (and general time pressure) involved in many

sports and other activities, there's a pretty good case for progressing to

faster speeds. There can even be benefits to overspeed training, provided it's

used with discretion and technique doesn't fly apart.

Regards,

Plisk

Excelsior Sports

Shelton CT

www.excelsiorsports.com

Prepare To Be A Champion!

[Guest guest]

Here's some additional information that is relevant with commentary from the

late Dr Siff:

INTRODUCTION TO IMAGERY IN PHYSICAL PERFORMANCE

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol26/rushall4.htm

Item extracted from Rushall, B. S., & Lippman, L. G. (1997). The role

of imagery in physical performance. International Journal for Sport

Psychology, 29, 57-72.

A further finding was that when athletes imagined an

activity in slow motion, the response pattern changed drastically,

appearing as an entirely different skill. It is a well established

understanding that two attempts at a skill, one in normal time and

the other in slow motion, produce discrete and unrelated

neuromuscular patterns. Such findings form a basis for

the " specificity of training " principle (Rushall & Pyke, 1990)!!!

[This issue has always interested me, especially since the classical and

very effective way of mastering all of the striking, blocking and

kicking movements in martial arts is to learn these movements slowly

and gradually to speed them up. Is there any research which has examined

more complex types of skill, rather than the work that has been extrapolated

from far simpler laboratory tasks? Mel Siff]

It follows that slow-motion mental rehearsal of a skill could be of no

value to full-speed physical execution. Not only must the images of

movements be correct, but the intensity and timing of mental

representations used in rehearsal also must match the terminal

behavior if this covert practice is to lead to any performance

improvement. However, there are some qualifications and additional

considerations needed for this interpretation.

[As I commented above, the use of this progressive increase in speed

starting with very slow movements is very effective in martial arts.

Can we really conclude so categorically that slow motion mental or

physical execution of any motor action definitely does not help one

to learn and master many real sporting actions? While exclusive

use of slower drills may be of little benefit, the intelligent use of

progressions and combinations with other related activities may well

be very effective. Mel Siff]

================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

>

> > Members may enjoy reading:

> >

> > http://thetalentcode.com/2009/10/15/slow-is-beautiful/

> >

> > One question that pops up often: why does super-slow practice work

> > so well? After all, we see it over and over in the talent hotbeds,

> > where it's used to learn everything from algebra to tennis to

> > writing. And yet slow practice grates against our instincts. Speed

> > is good, right? Shouldn't we always push ourselves to go faster,

> > faster, faster?

>

> Telle: Super slow works because the athlete, or whoever, can make

> mental pictures of the movements in slower, then faster imagination

> speeds. I would bet that each stage of learning is its own independent

> behavior neural circuit when done in stages. The athlete should stay

> at each stage? until they can see/feel the movement, then faster speed

> and etc until full speed and integrations are accomplished. If the

> athlete can see the execution flash before the movement all the

> better. That is, be able to Predict what is about to happen -- we do

> nothing without these predictions.

>

> Tiger Woods learned by watching his father golfing and could

> apparently swing almost perfectly, speed and all at age 3?4?5? The

> discovery channel showed an example of another child, apparently 1 or

> #? trial) learning by watching Tiger Woods on TV and his father. His

> father couldn't explain how his son picked it up. His hero is Woods.

> When imitation learning -- if the model is a highly respected athlete

> the learning speed is profound. My impression is that the golf swing

> is a lot easier to learn than a shot or discus execution!?

> >

> > Here's the deal: super-slow practice works because practice is about

> > construction. We are literally building a neural circuit —

> > connection by connection. Slowing down lets us pay deeper attention

> > to those connections; it lets us fire the circuit more accurately.

> > Super-slow practice allows us to not only perform the action, but to

> > also simultaneously observe that performance; to coach ourselves.

> > When we go fast, on the other hand, we are only performing.

>

> Telle -- as above, the entire movement can be learned without stages

> -- one step imitation learning (for certain gifted? individuals). I

> believe that when ever possible the stages be eliminated in favor of

> one step imagination learning.

>

> The next challenge is for coaches and everyone else is to come up

> with various methods for this learning. I have long promoted the idea

> of holligraphic(sp?) modeling. I know this to be the case because I

> can see/feel/experience this process as it happens (after about 25

> years of putting it all together). Mel used to call these ideas

> " silly " ? Apparently he could not " see " /experience this phenom.

>

> If I were still coaching the shot, discus, weight training and foot

> balI, I would somehow create the best visual learning envoirn possible

> and work from there. I also believe that when using the proggressive

> steps method -- if needed -- would include the athlete NOT do the

> segment full speed practice until s/he could do it in their heads

> first? -- be able to see it or experience it visually and or

> kinesthetically before each movement practice trial.

> >

> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5vTfi0gtZ8 & feature=player_embedded

> >

> > I just came across a interesting new book: Slow Practice Will Get

> > You There Faster, by Ernest Dras. Dras points to the above video,

> > where we can watch all-time-great Ben Hogan perform his super-slow

> > golf swing (check out the incredible fluidity and control Hogan

> > displays at 1:45 and beyond; it looks like the film is slowed down,

> > but as the waves in the background prove, it's pure Hogan). Dras

> > points out that Mozart and his father did essentially the same thing.

>

> Telle -- First, about the swing being actual speed, -- apparently you

> mean that Hogan purposefully slowed the swing down (since it takes

> about 5-6 seconds to complete from top to contact) Hitting the ball at

> this speed, no matter how fluid, would result in a 8 foot distance

> ( (- ) Right, because the piano is infinitely harder for a 3 year

> old -- the movements must also correspond with the right keys --

> probably beyond a first stage learning. The hands of a pianist

> probably move faster than visual learning processes can handle (though

> I wouldn't bet on it).

> >

> > The elder Mozart would place ten dried peas in his son's left coat

> > pocket, and for each successful attempt at a difficult passage,

> > Mozart would move a single pea to his right pocket. When he failed

> > on any piece, even if it was the tenth repetition, all the peas had

> > to be placed back in his left pocket — Wolfgang had to begin anew.

> > What usually happens when using this method is that the student

> > slows down his tempo in order to play the passage perfectly.

>

> Telle -- This is brilliant because both negative and positive

> reinforcements are immediately used -- not just positive as most

> practitioners stubbornly believe. I also remember reading that Wolfe's

> father was a real B@ & %$# & d when teaching -- or was it Bethovens(sp)

> The key with pos/neg reinforcement is that short term success is

> predictable -- although sometimes the positive reward is relief from

> the severity of negative penalties.

>

> So Imitation first then, if needed, breakdown, slowdown and rehearse

> -- always referring back to the inherent visual/experience processes?

> >

> > =====================

> > Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> The next challenge is for coaches and everyone else is to come up

> with various methods for this learning. I have long promoted the idea

> of holligraphic(sp?) modeling. I know this to be the case because I

> can see/feel/experience this process as it happens (after about 25

> years of putting it all together). Mel used to call these ideas

> " silly " ? Apparently he could not " see " /experience this phenom.

>

> If I were still coaching the shot, discus, weight training and foot

> balI, I would somehow create the best visual learning envoirn possible

> and work from there.

*****

Possibly a mirror may also be useful? Interesting to watch the video below of

some elite Korean Weightlifters:

Percept Mot Skills 1988 Dec; 67(3):715-8

Effect of concurrent visual feedback on acquisition of a weightlifting skill.

Sewall LP, Reeve TG, Day RA.

Practice in front of a mirror is a common procedure for activities such as

dance, gymnastics, and other sports. The purpose of this study was to

examine the effect that performing with concurrent visual feedback from a

mirror had on the acquisition of the power clean movement.

18 college-age males who had no prior experience with the power clean

movement served as subjects who were assigned to one of two groups. One group

had use of a mirror during the practice trials and the other practiced

without the mirror. All subjects viewed an instructional videotape and had

practice trials. All subjects were evaluated for proper technique on a

pretest, a posttest without the mirror, and a posttest with the mirror.

Analysis showed a significant difference between pre- and posttest

performances for both groups and a significant difference between groups on

the posttest performances with the mirror. Evidently the videotaped

instruction was sufficient to allow both groups to improve in performance of

the power clean. Differences in posttest performances with the mirror

reflected the type of feedback (with or without the mirror) available during

training.

===============

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

It goes without saying, that in many sport movements, at different speeds

there may be different muscles involved. For instance in a slow-motion swing

one doesn't activate the muscles that counteract the centrifugal force.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:36 PM, todd langer <regnalt@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> The topic, as you know, is very complex.

>

> At face value, I tend to agree with your statement, but often wonder how

> much the input " changes " the output or in other words is it motor learning

> or rather modulating what's already there via genetics. Point being, it

> seems motor control theorists still don't agree on a schema/recall or

> dynamical/self-organizing approach. Of course, there is likely a

> combination

> of both due to the biopsychosoical nature of the human organism, but where

> the proverbial line is drawn gets a bit hazy, IMHO. Anyways, it does seem

> possible, to one degree or another, for " super-slow " training to carryover

> into high acceleration/velocities to the degree that a person's

> musculoskeletal system is also prepared to handle the requirements placed

> upon it.

>

> Take care,

> Todd Langer, MSc

> Boulder, CO

> ==============================

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Supertraining <Supertraining%40>[mailto:

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>]

> On Behalf Of Plisk

> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:25 AM

> Supertraining

> Subject: Re: Super-slow practice and skill development

>

>

> ,

>

> I believe the central issue is that skills are usually best acquired by

> practicing them at a variety of submaximal speeds, for learning purposes.

>

> 'Super-slow' implies that there should be no intent to move quickly. With

> the high accelerations and velocities (and general time pressure) involved

> in many sports and other activities, there's a pretty good case for

> progressing to faster speeds. There can even be benefits to overspeed

> training, provided it's used with discretion and technique doesn't fly

> apart.

> ================================

>

>

[Guest guest]

Todd,

My previous post was not meant to be a comment on your previous post, it

merely chronologically followed yours.

I do not disagree that slow-motion mimicking of a sport action may be very

useful to develop the skill: it may very well help establish a repository

area in the brain that memorizes everything involved with it.

The point I tried to make is that this technique should not be taken too

literally and to extreme consequences. I'm not talking about different

recruitment percentages, but muscle groups that are involved when they

shouldn't, or vice versa muscles groups that aren't involved at all when

they should. Such differences are an obstacle to learning; only when aware

of such differences one can take corrective actions to learn even better.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:57 PM, todd langer <regnalt@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi Giovanni,

>

> I'm not sure what you point is or what you're trying to elucidate. To be

> sure, neuromuscular recruitment is often different for the SAME movement.

> The point being, as both I and the late Dr. Siff alluded to, is that

> training in slow-motion might very well induce the learning of a faster and

> more explosive movement. In other words the point in time when a person

> needs to increase the speed of a movement to " learn " that speed is not as

> clear-cut as so many so many people are led to believe.

>

>

> Take care,

> Todd Langer, MSc

> Boulder, CO

>

> ============================

>

> _____

>

> From: Supertraining <Supertraining%40>[mailto:

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>]

> On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani

> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:04 AM

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> Subject: Re: Re: Super-slow practice and skill development

>

>

> It goes without saying, that in many sport movements, at different speeds

> there may be different muscles involved. For instance in a slow-motion

> swing

> one doesn't activate the muscles that counteract the centrifugal force.

>

> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

>

> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:36 PM, todd langer <regnaltcomcast (DOT)

> <mailto:regnalt%40comcast.net <regnalt%2540comcast.net>> net> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > The topic, as you know, is very complex.

> >

> > At face value, I tend to agree with your statement, but often wonder how

> > much the input " changes " the output or in other words is it motor

> learning

> > or rather modulating what's already there via genetics. Point being, it

> > seems motor control theorists still don't agree on a schema/recall or

> > dynamical/self-organizing approach. Of course, there is likely a

> > combination

> > of both due to the biopsychosoical nature of the human organism, but

> where

> > the proverbial line is drawn gets a bit hazy, IMHO. Anyways, it does seem

> > possible, to one degree or another, for " super-slow " training to

> carryover

> > into high acceleration/velocities to the degree that a person's

> > musculoskeletal system is also prepared to handle the requirements placed

> > upon it.

> >

> > Take care,

> > Todd Langer, MSc

> > Boulder, CO

> > ==============================

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Supertraining@

<mailto:Supertraining%40<Supertraining%2540>

> >

> <Supertraining%40>[mailto:

>

> > Supertraining@

<mailto:Supertraining%40<Supertraining%2540>>

>

> <Supertraining%40>]

>

> > On Behalf Of Plisk

> > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:25 AM

> > Supertraining

> > Subject: Re: Super-slow practice and skill development

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > I believe the central issue is that skills are usually best acquired by

> > practicing them at a variety of submaximal speeds, for learning purposes.

> >

> > 'Super-slow' implies that there should be no intent to move quickly. With

> > the high accelerations and velocities (and general time pressure)

> involved

> > in many sports and other activities, there's a pretty good case for

> > progressing to faster speeds. There can even be benefits to overspeed

> > training, provided it's used with discretion and technique doesn't fly

> > apart.

> > ================================

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

Good study (below). It's interesting to note that the study was

performed with an exercise viewed in a single plane. Obviously the

athlete can study many aspects from this position -- that is with the

athletes head basically in the neutral forward position the entire

movement. This would be a problem with studies of pitching, shot and

discus or a foot ball lineman from the side position. I tried using

the mirror to keep the athlete facing rearward during an O'brien style

shot put and even tried using 4 - 2' X 5' mirrors for shot and discus

practice. It, I believed, caused sensory over load in jr/sr high

school putters -- though I didn't give it much of a chance. I believe

that using one mirror at a time, in different positions, would work

well for the previous movements.

I wondered if the extra 3 views caused dissimilar kinesthetic/visual

information -- though one position at a time seemed to work. This was

many moons ago and might have benefited from 25 more years of thought

training and experience ?

Imitation learning Is a fascinating field.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

On May 4, 2010, at 10:11 AM, carruthersjam wrote:

>

>

> > The next challenge is for coaches and everyone else is to come up

> > with various methods for this learning. I have long promoted the

> idea

> > of holligraphic(sp?) modeling. I know this to be the case because I

> > can see/feel/experience this process as it happens (after about 25

> > years of putting it all together). Mel used to call these ideas

> > " silly " ? Apparently he could not " see " /experience this phenom.

> >

> > If I were still coaching the shot, discus, weight training and foot

> > balI, I would somehow create the best visual learning envoirn

> possible

> > and work from there.

>

> *****

> Possibly a mirror may also be useful? Interesting to watch the video

> below of some elite Korean Weightlifters:

>

>

>

> Percept Mot Skills 1988 Dec; 67(3):715-8

>

> Effect of concurrent visual feedback on acquisition of a

> weightlifting skill.

>

> Sewall LP, Reeve TG, Day RA.

>

> Practice in front of a mirror is a common procedure for activities

> such as

> dance, gymnastics, and other sports. The purpose of this study was to

> examine the effect that performing with concurrent visual feedback

> from a

> mirror had on the acquisition of the power clean movement.

>

> 18 college-age males who had no prior experience with the power clean

> movement served as subjects who were assigned to one of two groups.

> One group

> had use of a mirror during the practice trials and the other practiced

> without the mirror. All subjects viewed an instructional videotape

> and had

> practice trials. All subjects were evaluated for proper technique on a

> pretest, a posttest without the mirror, and a posttest with the

> mirror.

>

> Analysis showed a significant difference between pre- and posttest

> performances for both groups and a significant difference between

> groups on

> the posttest performances with the mirror. Evidently the videotaped

> instruction was sufficient to allow both groups to improve in

> performance of

> the power clean. Differences in posttest performances with the mirror

> reflected the type of feedback (with or without the mirror)

> available during

> training.

>

> ===============

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Giovanni Ciriani wrote:

It goes without saying, that in many sport movements, at different

speeds there may be different muscles involved. For instance in a slow-motion

swing one doesn't activate the muscles that counteract the centrifugal force.

-----

Giovanni,

That's a great point. Likewise as the load changes significantly, so does the

motor program involved in performing the skill.

I think this brings us to a couple of key issues, which are interrelated. It's

very important not to be fooled by the outward appearance of a task. At

different loads or velocities, the same movement pattern (kinematics) can

involve very different forces (kinetics), hence making it a different skill.

That can be a bit counterintuitive at first, but is pretty well supported in the

motor learning/behavior literature.

In my opinion it's also critical to keep in mind the cause-and-effect

relationships between force and velocity, acceleration etc. Movement techniques

are really the skillful application of those forces. The challenge here seems to

be that we need to focus on something we can't see - only the outcome of force

is visible.

All of this has interesting implications for training - e.g. we don't

necessarily need a long menu of exercises to achieve practice variation. A

relatively short menu with rational load and speed variationmay be where it's

at.

Regards,

Plisk

Excelsior Sports

Shelton CT

www.excelsiorsports.com

Prepare To Be A Champion!