Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

[Guest guest]

The PH of food is changed as it makes it through the stomach and intestines.

What does testing the PH of food before it is eaten really accomplish since it

becomes neutral as it moves through the stomach and intestinal tract?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish WA USA

RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he find

someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his blood

pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what do

you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't perfect.

So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he has

issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means, he

needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other hoops

before joining

in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

(probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous, in

my opinion.

Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

[Guest guest]

The whole concept of pH in food and its effect on training is not based on

science or research (there is none to back it up) but rather on conjecture by

professor Codrain and put forth by Joe Friel. Unfortunately readers have taken

this theoretical conjecture and began to publish it as if it where scientific

fact and have put together elaborate diets. I participated in a long discussion

(numerous detailed posts ) on Bicycling Magazine forum

(http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4341067265/m/5471036736/p/1 )

late 2009. I basically refuted the concept that pH in food would have any effect

on the performance of an athlete. One of the posters presented my view point to

Joe Friel. He responded as follows:

*************************

Posted 22 September 2009 08:17 PM

Mr Friel gave me permission to quote from his e-mail. I e-mailed him and said

that there

was an interesting discussion on the forum and acidosis might not be an issue

according

to one knowledgeable poster. He said:

quote:

He may be right. No one knows as there is no research, at least that I’ve ever

seen. We only proposed that it may be a problem, especially in terms of

mineral loss in the bones and muscles

- Joe Friel

*********************

As for metabolic typing I have yet to see any credible science to support this

concept and based on my knowledge of exercise phsyiology as well as the

physiology of disease I have difficulty with the concept. If anyone has any

credible science to back up the concept of metabolic typing and how it is

applied to training please post it.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: casey gallagher <gallagher2201@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Wed, March 2, 2011 2:18:23 PM

Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

The PH of food is changed as it makes it through the stomach and intestines.

What does testing the PH of food before it is eaten really accomplish since it

becomes neutral as it moves through the stomach and intestinal tract?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish WA USA

RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he find

someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his blood

pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what do

you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't perfect.

So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he has

issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means, he

needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other hoops

before joining

in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

(probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous, in

my opinion.

Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

[Guest guest]

Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet) are

highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale.  If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items.  We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH

of the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one,

before the program begins.

By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little more

carefully.  Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself. 

 

I have been a trainer for 17 years.  I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time.  I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel.  In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have. 

 

This record stands for itself.  If you're going to rip apart a truly successful

way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make myself

completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a little

common decency. 

 

There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered dieticians,

to prescribe nutritional programs.  Most simply don't know enough about it. I

was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the original

question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes.  The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort.  It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against.  It

is about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend.  If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

From: Brock Leggins <

brockleggins@...<mailto:brockleggins%40hotmail.com> >

Subject: RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he find

someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his blood

pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what do

you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't perfect.

So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he has

issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means, he

needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other hoops

before joining

in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

(probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous, in

my opinion.

Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

[Guest guest]

<raises her cup of morning coffee in salute>

Thank you, Dr. Ralph.

Several PL I have trained with in the past were notable java junkies, and they

did not lack muscle development nor strength. Coffee in particular seems to be a

hero and a goat about every 5 minutes in the media, but hundreds of years of

consumption hasn't really destroyed the world...If anything, perhaps it's going

to eventually save this economy and restore the GDP since companies have cut

their work forces and people run out of their own enthusiasm and reach for a

cup....? <note please this last comment is a JEST!>

If coffee was a bad idea for bodybuilders, why did they offer it to their

patrons at the bb gym i visited - for free?

Perhaps there are other aspects of this pH way of eating that make some

difference to a bodybuilder, but over the years, I've seen a whole lot of joe in

the hands of bb's....and I don't think balancing your pH would do a darned bit

of good for say, the smoking of cigarettes that a good many bb still use!

(again, an irony in the face of a supposedly " HEALTHY " lifestyle?)

With humor and half & half

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he find

someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his blood

pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what do

you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't perfect.

So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he has

issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means, he

needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other hoops

before joining

in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

(probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous, in

my opinion.

Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

[Guest guest]

Ok.  My last reply to this.

 

1.  I am not testing the PH in food.  We run a simple saliva, or urine test to

see if there is an issue with PH for the client.  If the reading is

significantly low, he/she is referred out for further testing.

 

2.  The reason for the test is as stated below.  If the body is

currently/potentially leeching minerals from bones, organs, thyroid etc. that is

the concern, that is why we are testing.

 

3.  If I were to drop any of my screenings, it would be this one.  However,

for a ten second test that could uncover a potential issue I see no reason to

drop it.

 

4.  Metabolic typing.  I have been involved in many cases where simple

metabolic typing has had a significant effect on client results by adjusting

percentages of carbs, fats, and proteins.  In addition, I have also experienced

through my clients, dramatic reductions in digestive issues, headaches, allergy

symptoms etc.

 

5.  Chek is my reference point with regard to MT.  As of yet, I do not

see where anybody else has done the comprehensive research and application to

refute his position and as mentioned, upon utilizing these practices, my clients

have seen significant improvements in results and quality of life.  Good enough

for me.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA 

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:42 PM

 

The whole concept of pH in food and its effect on training is not based on

science or research (there is none to back it up) but rather on conjecture by

professor Codrain and put forth by Joe Friel. Unfortunately readers have taken

this theoretical conjecture and began to publish it as if it where scientific

fact and have put together elaborate diets. I participated in a long discussion

(numerous detailed posts ) on Bicycling Magazine forum

(http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4341067265/m/5471036736/p/1 )

late 2009. I basically refuted the concept that pH in food would have any effect

on the performance of an athlete. One of the posters presented my view point to

Joe Friel. He responded as follows:

*************************

Posted 22 September 2009 08:17 PM

Mr Friel gave me permission to quote from his e-mail. I e-mailed him and said

that there

was an interesting discussion on the forum and acidosis might not be an issue

according

to one knowledgeable poster. He said:

quote:

He may be right. No one knows as there is no research, at least that I’ve ever

seen. We only proposed that it may be a problem, especially in terms of

mineral loss in the bones and muscles

- Joe Friel

*********************

As for metabolic typing I have yet to see any credible science to support this

concept and based on my knowledge of exercise phsyiology as well as the

physiology of disease I have difficulty with the concept. If anyone has any

credible science to back up the concept of metabolic typing and how it is

applied to training please post it.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Testing a clients PH balance (that also begs the question of where? Blood?

Urine? Skin? Saliva?) then drawing the conclusion that a person's PH balance is

based on the foods that they eat still begs the same question. How can food

alter a person's PH balance when it is neutral as it actually enters the system

since it moves to more acidic when it enters the stomach then is buffered and

moves to neutral as it enters the intestinal tract?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish WA USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale. If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items. We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH of

the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one, before

the program begins.

By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

I have been a trainer for 17 years. I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time. I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel. In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have.

This record stands for itself. If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency.

There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs. Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes. The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort. It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against. It is

about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend. If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

===================

[Guest guest]

Tom, you are prescribing a multi-factoral program to people and then making an

attributing the success to one component that has a highly theoretical basis

with no research supporting its effectiveness. I don't question the success you

have had as a personal trainer - I do question your attributions. I have to echo

Ralph's comments - I have seen nothing to support metabolic typing. I haven't

researched food PH affecting blood PH and performance, to be honest. None the

less, in this case Occam's razor suggests a simple solution - eat more and lift

heavy in basic multi-joint movements. Squat, press and pull.

One thing I have seen in behavioural research into physical activity is that it

is difficult to self-report on our own behaviour. Personal attributions are far

from perfect. I think this may also be the case in examining a successful

program of training. I'm going to suggest that your success has more to do with

the environment you create than any individual component of the actual program.

In powerlifting I have seen widely divergent training programs create world

champion powerlifters. Consider the difference between the training suggested by

Louie of Westside Barbell and Boris Sheiko of Russia. Yet both have

developed world record holders. The obvious conclusion is that individuals are

different and respond to different programs. While I don't dispute some

individual variation I think the real conclusion is that people in both systems

were in environments that motivated them to excellence. In short - buying into

the program may be more important than the program itself, assuming of course

the program meets the basic requirements for successful strength development.

There is more than one road to Rome, but everyone on that road wants to go to

Rome and believes the road will take them there.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

On 3/2/11 7:46 PM, Tom Capobianco wrote:

> Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale.  If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items.  We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH

of the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one,

before the program begins.

>

> By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully.  Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself. 

>  

> I have been a trainer for 17 years.  I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time.  I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel.  In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have. 

>  

> This record stands for itself.  If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency. 

>  

> There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs.  Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes.  The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort.  It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against.  It

is about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend.  If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

>  

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

>

>

> From: Brock Leggins <

brockleggins@...<mailto:brockleggins%40hotmail.com> >

> Subject: RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

> supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

>

> I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he find

someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his blood

pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what do

you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't perfect.

So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he has

issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means, he

needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other hoops

before joining

> in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

(probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous, in

my opinion.

> Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a link to an article by DR. Berardi, founder and president of

Precision Nutrition that discuses the importance of Ph in food with references.

I don't have access to them and wouldn't be able to validate them if I did. In

any case, it goes into a lot of detail on the subject.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nut\

rition/covering_your_nutritional_bases

Bob Dannegger

Raleigh NC

>

>

> From: Brock Leggins <

> brockleggins@...<mailto:brockleggins%40hotmail.com> >

>

> Subject: RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

> supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

>

> I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

> more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

> assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he

find

> someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

> it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his

blood

> pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

> allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what

do

> you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't

perfect.

> So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

> ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he

has

> issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means,

he

> needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other

hoops

> before joining

>

> in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

> (probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous,

in

> my opinion.

>

> Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here is another article by the authors of the first reference:

Effects of a high protein intake on renal acid excretion in bodybuilders

F. Manz, T. Remer, E. Decher-Spliethoff, M. Höhler, M. Kersting, C. Kunz and B.

Lausen

I don't have access, but the abstract seems to suggest the pH of your diet

doesn't matter.

Brad Bellomo

> >

> >

> > From: Brock Leggins <

> > brockleggins@<mailto:brockleggins%40hotmail.com> >

> >

> > Subject: RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

> > supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

> > Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

> >

> > I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to

eat

> > more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

> > assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he

find

> > someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I

think

> > it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his

blood

> > pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some

known

> > allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom,

what do

> > you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't

perfect.

> > So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with

a

> > ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he

has

> > issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all

means, he

> > needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other

hoops

> > before joining

> >

> > in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless

others

> > (probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous,

in

> > my opinion.

> >

> > Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

,

 

I have not attributed the success of my clients to any one component.  In fact,

I noted that if I were to drop one particular test, it would be the PH.  I

agree with you entirely, in that it is my comprehensive approach and my interest

in discovering dysfunction in nutrition and physical limitations prior to

implementing a protocol that are the basis of my success.  Ironically enough,

this was the first statement I made in response to the original question asked

by . 

 

The odd thing to me is, a novice asked a question over the internet.  A whole

host of folks suggested that he lift heavy and eat more with no attempt to point

out to that there may be some areas that should be looked at prior to

beginning a program of this nature and I have been essentially attacked for this

notion.

 

I never said he shouldn't eat certain foods or train a certain way.  I simply

suggested that he implement some quick, simple screenings to uncover any

possible obstacles to success using the protocols suggested.  Our industry is

littered with " advice " from " experts " and " research " .  As an experienced health

professional with a track record of significant success, I merely exressed my

opinion as did others.  The only difference is, I was attacked, and almost

ridiculed for suggesting a bit of caution before a 36 year old novice implements

a very strenous program.

 

I stand by my recommendation.  The frequency of knee jerk response advice

without regard for possible consequences is irresponsible and potentially

damaging.  As you said yourself, it is my attention to the overall process that

has created success.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

> From: Brock Leggins <

brockleggins@...<mailto:brockleggins%40hotmail.com> >

> Subject: RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

> supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

>

> I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he find

someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his blood

pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what do

you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't perfect.

So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he has

issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means, he

needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other hoops

before

joining

> in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

(probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous, in

my opinion.

> Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

>

>

[Guest guest]

The testing of the PH, both urine and saliva is simply an overall approach to

guaging an individuals current level of wellness.  If PH registers low the

first time, we test again.  If it registers low again, we test urine.  If it

registers low again we suggest more accurate and extensive testing be

considered.

 

With regard to how, or if food, coffee, soda, alcohol etc. affects PH balance; 

to be honest, all the science currently available cannont conclusively determine

one way or another whether or not it does or how significantly it does. 

 

Two things I know to be true.  1.  It's better to be safe than sorry.  2. 

The test takes seconds and could potentially uncover a problem that the client

is unaware of and needs actual medical attention.  Again, better to be safe

than sorry.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

From: casey gallagher <gallagher2201@...>

Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 10:13 AM

 

Tom,

Testing a clients PH balance (that also begs the question of where? Blood?

Urine? Skin? Saliva?) then drawing the conclusion that a person's PH balance is

based on the foods that they eat still begs the same question. How can food

alter a person's PH balance when it is neutral as it actually enters the system

since it moves to more acidic when it enters the stomach then is buffered and

moves to neutral as it enters the intestinal tract?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish WA USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet) are

highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the scale.

If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up on these

items. We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH of the

individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one, before the

program begins.

By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little more

carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

I have been a trainer for 17 years. I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time. I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel. In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have.

This record stands for itself. If you're going to rip apart a truly successful

way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make myself

completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a little

common decency.

There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered dieticians,

to prescribe nutritional programs. Most simply don't know enough about it. I was

simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the original question

that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head first. The whole

process takes up maybe 90 minutes. The wrong exercise or the wrong food choices

could cause him months or years of discomfort. It's not about " healthy " or

" unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against. It is about creating a

nutrition program that is right for the individual and being responsible about

what you recommend. If you don't get that despite your own personal success,

then thank God you're not my trainer.

===================

[Guest guest]

As an additional consideration on this, I have tested specimens with retail pH

test strips that have varied very significantly (~ 2.0pH points) from lab tests

on the same specimens. So, if you're doing this at home, whether or not there is

any science at the theoretical level, you might want to be aware that the

testing procedure you're using has potentially significant accuracy issues.

FWIW, this is not unique to this area, either. A friend who works in a biotech

lab has complained about similar issues (poor accuracy and/or poor consistency)

with consumer-level insulin strips.

Newell

Boston, MA

[Guest guest]

________________________________

From: Tom Capobianco wrote:

Ok. My last reply to this.

1. I am not testing the PH in food. We run a simple saliva, or urine test to

see if there is an issue with PH for the client. If the reading is

significantly low, he/she is referred out for further testing.

**********

my answer: pH testing of urine taken out of context alone is of little

diagnostic value. A common benign cause of a very low urinary pH is a diet high

in protein.

" urine pH provides little useful diagnostic information. The normal range for

urine pH is 4.5 to 7.8. " - Acidic urine is also associated with the ingestion

of large amounts of meat.[4]

( Brenner: Brenner and Rector's The Kidney, 8th ed.)

4. Silkensen JR, Kasiske BL: Laboratory assessment of renal disease: Clearance,

urinalysis, and renal biopsy. In: Brenner BM, ed. Brenner and Rector's The

Kidney, 7th ed. Philadelphia: Saunders; 2004:1107-1150.

Do you recommend that your athletes refrain from eating a high protein diet? A

vegetarian diet will raise the pH into the alkaline state.

*******************

Tom wrote:

2. The reason for the test is as stated below. If the body is

currently/potentially leeching minerals from bones, organs, thyroid etc. that is

the concern, that is why we are testing.

My answer: the mineral content of bones organs and thyroid are tightly

controlled by various hormones and chemical reactions. Minerals do not leach

out from bones or organs.. The disposal of excess acid load is tightly

controlled by both the lungs as well as the kidneys. In normal healthy

individuals an acid load does not result in loss of important minerals. While

this loss of calcium may occur in the elderly with failing kidneys it is wrong

to try an apply conditions of pathology to healthy individuals. Are you

referring these individuals to a Nephrologist?

Generally Bicarbonate is the buffer of choice for maintaining a normal pH

acid/base and not calcium. Calcium and other alkali are secondary buffers in

normal physiology.

In the elderly where renal function is generally compromised, there is a change

in how the body handles increased acid load.

These changes are multifactorial from decreased renal production of Bicarbonate,

and decreased calcium reabsorpton in the kidneys, compromised lung function with

decreased capacity to handle CO2 load, decreased cardiac output which in turn

worsens renal function and increase endogenous acid production as well as

increasing CO2 burden. All these factors contribute to this condition.

These individuals are living in a condition of borderline acidosis. It is in

this situation that high acid load from meals may play a role in tipping the

balance towards increased risk for osteoporosis.

In the young and healthy, normal renal function allows for adequate bicarbonate

production and normal calcium reabsorption.

****************

Tom wrote:

3. If I were to drop any of my screenings, it would be this one. However, for

a ten second test that could uncover a potential issue I see no reason to drop

it.

My answer: a test is useless no matter how simple unless you know how to

interpret the data. Improper intepretation can lead to unnecessary and

expensive testing.

**************************

Tom wrote

4. Metabolic typing. I have been involved in many cases where simple metabolic

typing has had a significant effect on client results by adjusting percentages

of carbs, fats, and proteins. In addition, I have also experienced through my

clients, dramatic reductions in digestive issues, headaches, allergy symptoms

etc.

5. Chek is my reference point with regard to MT. As of yet, I do not see

where anybody else has done the comprehensive research and application to refute

his position and as mentioned, upon utilizing these practices, my clients have

seen significant improvements in results and quality of life. Good enough for

me.

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

******************

my answer:

The following from Wikepedia should be informative on Metabolic typing:

Metabolic typing is the term for a diet based upon the concept metabolic type.

Proponents claim that each person has a unique metabolism, and that therefore

the nutrients which are appropriate for one person may be inappropriate for a

second, and detrimental for a third. Metabolic typing claims to use common

visible symptoms related to the skin, eyes, and other superficial parts of the

body to assess different aspects of a person's metabolism and categorize them

into broad metabolic types. In addition, some proponents of metabolic typing use

controversial or unproven tests such as hair analysis to determine a person's

" metabolic type " .[1]

A number of somewhat different " metabolic typing " diet plans are currently

marketed. The validity and effectiveness of metabolic typing have not been

established.[2]

Background

Metabolic typing was introduced by Kelley, a dentist, in the

1960s. Kelley advocated basing dietary choices on the activity of one's

sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. In 1970, Kelley was convicted

of practicing medicine without a license, as he had diagnosed a patient with

lung cancer based on a fingerstick blood test and prescribed nutritional

therapy. He continued to promote a metabolic typing diet through the 1980s.[3]

The practice has been further developed by others including Harold Kristol and

Wolcott.

" Metabolic therapy " , including administration of laetrile, was promoted for

cancer patients by in the San Francisco Bay Area in the 1970s,

until his arrest for violating the California Cancer Law and revocation of his

license by the California Board of Medical Quality Assurance.[4]

Effectiveness

Although metabolic typing diets have been promoted to patients with cancer, the

American Cancer Society states that:

There is no convincing clinical evidence that supports the claims made for

metabolic therapy or any of its components. Some aspects of metabolic therapy

may in fact be harmful.[5]

The Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center website notes that " ...retrospective

reviews of the Gerson, Kelley, and Contreras metabolic therapies show no

evidence of efficacy. " [6]

Some metabolic typing companies use a battery of blood and urine tests performed

by reputable laboratories, but interpret the results in an unconventional and

medically questionable fashion.[2] During a 1985 investigation into one such

firm, an investigator sent 2 separate samples of his own blood and urine for

analysis. He received 2 drastically different " metabolic typing " reports and

dietary plans. Both plans involved the purchase of dietary supplements costing

several dollars per day.[2]

References

1. ^ The Metabolic Typing Diet, Wolcott and Fahey, p.118-119

2. ^ a b c Nutrabalance, a metabolic typing firm, described by Quackwatch.

Accessed April 27, 2007.

3. ^ " Questionable Cancer Therapies: Kelley/ Metabolic Therapy " .

Quackwatch. http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html.

Retrieved April 27, 2007.

4. ^ , (February 17, 2004). " The Rise and Fall of Laetrile " .

Quackwatch.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/laetrile.html.

Retrieved September 15, 2010.

5. ^ Metabolic Therapy information from the American Cancer Society. Accessed

April 27, 2007.

6. ^ Metabolic Therapies: Information sheet from Memorial Sloan-Kettering

Cancer Center. Accessed April 27, 2007.

**************

My conclusion:

The concepts of pH testing and metabolic typing are not based on scientific

data.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>

Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:42 PM

The whole concept of pH in food and its effect on training is not based on

science or research (there is none to back it up) but rather on conjecture by

professor Codrain and put forth by Joe Friel. Unfortunately readers have taken

this theoretical conjecture and began to publish it as if it where scientific

fact and have put together elaborate diets. I participated in a long discussion

(numerous detailed posts ) on Bicycling Magazine forum

(http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4341067265/m/5471036736/p/1 )

late 2009. I basically refuted the concept that pH in food would have any effect

on the performance of an athlete. One of the posters presented my view point to

Joe Friel. He responded as follows:

*************************

Posted 22 September 2009 08:17 PM

Mr Friel gave me permission to quote from his e-mail. I e-mailed him and said

that there

was an interesting discussion on the forum and acidosis might not be an issue

according

to one knowledgeable poster. He said:

quote:

He may be right. No one knows as there is no research, at least that I’ve ever

seen. We only proposed that it may be a problem, especially in terms of

mineral loss in the bones and muscles

- Joe Friel

*********************

As for metabolic typing I have yet to see any credible science to support this

concept and based on my knowledge of exercise phsyiology as well as the

physiology of disease I have difficulty with the concept. If anyone has any

credible science to back up the concept of metabolic typing and how it is

applied to training please post it.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

[Guest guest]

Tom,

If you can't conclusively state that the PH of food affects PH levels in the

human body then why do you promote a nutrition system based on this unproven

method (I would actually argue that it has been shown to move in the opposite

direction of how we know how the digestive system actually works)? You state

that part of the reason you are testing a person's PH balance to determine if

there might be an underlying medical issue. That, in my opinion, starts across

the medical diagnosis line. You admit that you cannot conclusively state that a

person's PH is affected by the foods they eat yet you also state that you are

using a PH test to determine the " right " food for an individual. If one has

nothing to do with the other how can you determine what is the " right food " ?

I do find it interesting that you believe you have been " attacked " by other

posters on this forum. I have only seen one poster make any kind of slightly

sarcastic response to your post. I have found that if a person makes an

assertion on this forum they better have the research or at least some hard data

to support their claim because they will be challenged, which should move to

strengthen that person's claim or move it in a positive direction.

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish WA USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale. If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up on

these items. We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH of the

individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one, before the

program begins.

By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

I have been a trainer for 17 years. I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time. I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel. In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have.

This record stands for itself. If you're going to rip apart a truly successful

way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make myself

completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a little

common decency.

There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs. Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes. The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort. It's not about

" healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against. It is about

creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend. If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

===================

[Guest guest]

________________________________

From: bobjjdan <rdannegger@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 1:49:18 PM

Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Here is a link to an article by DR. Berardi, founder and president of

Precision Nutrition that discuses the importance of Ph in food with references.

I don't have access to them and wouldn't be able to validate them if I did. In

any case, it goes into a lot of detail on the subject.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nut\

rition/covering_your_nutritional_bases

Bob Dannegger

Raleigh NC

*************

I read the article you quoted- while it sounds scientific there are so many

scientific holes in the discussion you could drive a truck through it.

It is loaded with partial truths and misinterpretation of the science. He

totally disregards the role of the kidney and bicarbonate in balancing out the

acid base fluctuations of the body throughout the day. Calcium for instance

plays a very small role in acid base homeostatis and the vast majority that is

used to help the kidneys dispose of Hydrogen ions is reabsorbed in the kidney so

that there is a less than a 200 mg net loss even at very high acid loads. The

major cause of a high acid load is strenous exercise and a high protein diet.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

>

>

> From: Brock Leggins <

> brockleggins@...<mailto:brockleggins%40hotmail.com> >

>

> Subject: RE: Re: Lack of Muscle Growth?

> supertraining <mailto:supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:52 AM

>

> I'm with you, Skip. If a novice trainee wants to put on size, they need to eat

> more and lift heavier. It's not rocket surgery, as you said. I think this

> assessment mentality has gotten way out of hand in our industry. Should he

find

>

> someone to make sure he is doing the movements correctly? Absolutely. I think

> it's pretty obvious that he's simply not eating enough, and analyzing his

blood

>

> pH, etc. is not likely to make much of a difference. Yes, if he has some known

> allergies or foods that give him trouble, he should avoid them. But Tom, what

>do

>

> you really expect to come of all that? He finds out his bloodwork isn't

>perfect.

>

> So does that mean take however long is necessary to correct that, along with a

> ton of " functional " or " corrective " training to get him right? Again, if he

has

>

> issues that he knows are keeping him back (injuries, etc.) then by all means,

>he

>

> needs to get checked out. But to say he needs to go through a ton of other

>hoops

>

> before joining

>

> in performing a program and exercises that have been used by countless others

> (probably many with worse genetics or problems than he) is a bit outrageous,

in

>

> my opinion.

>

> Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

>

>

[Guest guest]

What part of an " individual's pH " are we testing? Blood? Saliva? Urine? Feces?

Tears? Bile? Synovial fluid?

Peoples' bodies contain many different fluids that serve many different

purposes. I admit, I am ignorant of the specific protocol for testing a

person's pH. That may be why there doesn't seem to be any peer-reviewed

scientific evidence (as mentioned by Dr. Giarnella).

Merrick, Ph.D.

Bellevue, NE

>

> Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale.  If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items.  We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH of

the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one, before

the program begins.

>

> By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

>

> I have been a trainer for 17 years.  I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time.  I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel.  In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have. 

>

> This record stands for itself.  If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency.

>

> There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs.  Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes.  The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort.  It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against.  It is

about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend.  If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

(material deleted)

[Guest guest]

Thanks .  We are aware of this issue relating to retail strips.  This is

why we test multiple times.  If we continue to see a consistent low reading, we

then refer out for more accurate and comprehensive testing.

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

From: J. Newell <john.o.newell@...>

Subject: Re: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 2:36 PM

 

As an additional consideration on this, I have tested specimens with retail pH

test strips that have varied very significantly (~ 2.0pH points) from lab tests

on the same specimens. So, if you're doing this at home, whether or not there is

any science at the theoretical level, you might want to be aware that the

testing procedure you're using has potentially significant accuracy issues.

FWIW, this is not unique to this area, either. A friend who works in a biotech

lab has complained about similar issues (poor accuracy and/or poor consistency)

with consumer-level insulin strips.

Newell

Boston, MA

[Guest guest]

As I mentioned in my last response to this, maybe I'm wrong on this account. 

However, Dr. Giarnella points out in his last reply that High Acid load comes

from exercise and . HIGH PROTEIN DIET. If I am wrong completely, then I have

simply wasted ten seconds of a clients time while attempting to possibly uncover

a potential issue that might require further medical attention.

 

What is outrageous to me is how much time has been spent on this matter.  The

test does no harm, yet many of you are doing your best to discount any use for

it at all.  Yet at the same time you all seem to think that telling a novice

lifter, over the internet, that they should lift heavy and eat more without

drawing their attention to the fact that a 36 year old novice should be aware of

some potential issues that may arise and these things should be considered

before beginning such a program. 

 

I keep saying this over and over and over again, and yet all you guys want to

talk about is PH? 

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

 

From: samuel9888 <Sam68123@...>

Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 3:44 PM

 

What part of an " individual's pH " are we testing? Blood? Saliva? Urine? Feces?

Tears? Bile? Synovial fluid?

Peoples' bodies contain many different fluids that serve many different

purposes. I admit, I am ignorant of the specific protocol for testing a person's

pH. That may be why there doesn't seem to be any peer-reviewed scientific

evidence (as mentioned by Dr. Giarnella).

Merrick, Ph.D.

Bellevue, NE

>

> Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale.  If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items.  We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH

of the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one,

before the program begins.

>

> By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

>

> I have been a trainer for 17 years.  I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time.  I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel.  In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have. 

>

> This record stands for itself.  If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency.

>

> There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs.  Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes.  The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort.  It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against.  It

is about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend.  If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

(material deleted)

[Guest guest]

Interesting discussion.

Question to Dr. Ralph - what about the practice of bicarbonate loading before

competitions then - do you consider this may be effective for an athlete in a

competition to use bicarbonate prior to the event to aid the body's natural

trend to produce the bicarbonate and allowing for the stressors of higher

protein intake and extreme exercise like powerlifting? I have seen some folks

use this - and I've also heard some cannot tolerate the intake digestively prior

to the event - some get sick to the stomach and others get considerable gas in

the pipelines and discomfort when compressed lol...

OR is this practice of loading something the body makes a bit less than helpful

and would it result in messing up the manufacture by the body by way of setting

off the safeties and feedback the body uses to keep its balance? Is there

another unintended consequence one might get?

One coach I had contact with in the not so distant past actually ordered his

athletes to ingest several " tums " trademarked etc after every workout with the

intention of helping their recovery ....my question to this one is how would a

person then properly digest your food if you took many tablets to impact your

stomach acid and then ate your dinner? Isn't a lower production of the proper

acid part of the aging problem?

In addition, I'd like to say that a question I've had all along on this thread

is the question of scope of practice - isn't all this testing of pH and other

medical items a bit out of practice for a trainer of any type generally?

I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting it as a coach personally...and there's

enough risk out there without putting one's toes into medical community turf.

I'd be far more inclined to send someone to an MD quickly if I felt they had

anything significant to get sorted before starting exercise...

Lastly, my own experience is that exercise without any dietary modification can

improve my allergies significantly, and migraine sufferers in my private MT

practice report fewer headaches when they get sufficient rest and get their

workouts in. I think that the effects of exercise can be conveniently overlooked

by some who make claims for various diets and that exercise in itself can be

quite helpful with a lot of conditions that ail us beyond changing us from

cheesy poof snarfing sofa slugs!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:42 PM

The whole concept of pH in food and its effect on training is not based on

science or research (there is none to back it up) but rather on conjecture by

professor Codrain and put forth by Joe Friel. Unfortunately readers have taken

this theoretical conjecture and began to publish it as if it where scientific

fact and have put together elaborate diets. I participated in a long discussion

(numerous detailed posts ) on Bicycling Magazine forum

( http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4341067265/m/5471036736/p/1 )

late 2009. I basically refuted the concept that pH in food would have any effect

on the performance of an athlete. One of the posters presented my view point to

Joe Friel. He responded as follows:

*************************

Posted 22 September 2009 08:17 PM

Mr Friel gave me permission to quote from his e-mail. I e-mailed him and said

that there

was an interesting discussion on the forum and acidosis might not be an issue

according

to one knowledgeable poster. He said:

quote:

He may be right. No one knows as there is no research, at least that I’ve ever

seen. We only proposed that it may be a problem, especially in terms of

mineral loss in the bones and muscles

- Joe Friel

*********************

As for metabolic typing I have yet to see any credible science to support this

concept and based on my knowledge of exercise phsyiology as well as the

physiology of disease I have difficulty with the concept. If anyone has any

credible science to back up the concept of metabolic typing and how it is

applied to training please post it.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

[Guest guest]

wrote:

Interesting discussion.

Question to Dr. Ralph - what about the practice of bicarbonate loading before

competitions then - do you consider this may be effective for an athlete in a

competition to use bicarbonate prior to the event to aid the body's natural

trend to produce the bicarbonate and allowing for the stressors of higher

protein intake and extreme exercise like powerlifting? I have seen some folks

use this - and I've also heard some cannot tolerate the intake digestively prior

to the event - some get sick to the stomach and others get considerable gas in

the pipelines and discomfort when compressed lol...

OR is this practice of loading something the body makes a bit less than helpful

and would it result in messing up the manufacture by the body by way of setting

off the safeties and feedback the body uses to keep its balance? Is there

another unintended consequence one might get?

One coach I had contact with in the not so distant past actually ordered his

athletes to ingest several " tums " trademarked etc after every workout with the

intention of helping their recovery ....my question to this one is how would a

person then properly digest your food if you took many tablets to impact your

stomach acid and then ate your dinner? Isn't a lower production of the proper

acid part of the aging problem?

*********************

My answer

Let me preface my answer to your question by pointing out the amongst all the

areas I have had to study and try to master during my 50 years of studying

biology and medicine by far the most complex and intricate is body pH and

acid/base balance.

There are multiple complex interactions between the respiratory system, the

renal system and endocrinology etc that the body uses to keep the pH at an

optimal level for proper health. The process gets even more complicated when

you throw in pathological states such as Diabetes, Chronic obstructive disease,

renal failure etc.

Extreme stress placed on the body by pushing it to its physiological limits by

athletes adds another level of complexity. The study of physiology and

pathology dates back centuries whereas actual exercise physiology is relatively

new with relatiely limited studies. It is only in the past 30-40 years that

exercise physiology has begun to take off. We still have a lot to learn. Very

few studies in athletes are done in a controled manner and usually with very few

individuals.

The problem I see in much of sport world is some individuals looking at the

effects of pathology on physiology and trying to apply this to athletes. For

instance intravenous bicarbonate is used in an attempt to stabilize a patient

who is severely acidotic due to acute ketoacidosis (diabetic) lactic acidosis

(cardiac arrest). This practice cannot be applied to a healthy athlee.

There is a saying " a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing " . Some

individuals know a little bit of physiology and think they have discovered some

big secret and misinterpret what have learned. This often leads to bizarre

practices that have no basis in science and have never been proven but yet are

accepted at face value by those who know even less than the individual proposing

this.

With regard to Bicarbonate loading I will not go into detail since this topic

was covered several years ago on this forum. Suffice it to say there is little

research to back up the practice of bicarbonate loading and its effects on

exercise. What little research there is, was discussed during those posts.

The pancreas produces large amounts of bicarbonate daily to neutralize the acid

produced by the stomach. The kidney produces large amounts of bicarbonate to

meet the needs of the body maintain a proper pH. As in every aspect the body

reacts to stress by increasing its ability to meet that stress. The only time

the kidneys ability to meet the of bicarbonate becomes a problem is in patients

with renal insufficienc or failure.

There is in my opinion no merit in taking tums or bicarbonate unless you have

and ulcer or an upset stomach.

*************************

wrote:

In addition, I'd like to say that a question I've had all along on this thread

is the question of scope of practice - isn't all this testing of pH and other

medical items a bit out of practice for a trainer of any type generally?

I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting it as a coach personally...and there's

enough risk out there without putting one's toes into medical community turf.

I'd be far more inclined to send someone to an MD quickly if I felt they had

anything significant to get sorted before starting exercise...

My answer:

Of all the myriad tests that I have at my disposal for diagnosing and treating

my patients the " LEAST IMPORTANT " is urine pH. Except in certain pathological

situations it is of very little diagnostic value. It is a harmless test and

inexpensive but if you use it to refer someone for further unnecessary testing

it becomes expensive and potentially harmful especially if you make a healthy

person think they are sick.

If I want to know the the acid base situation of a patient I would order an

arterial blood gas as well as a set of electrolytes and measure the anion gap as

well as blood bicarbonate level, CO2 and PO2. I would also want to know what

their renal function as well as pulmonary status is.

As a physician I tell my patients to exercise, lift weights or do cardio but I

will not prescribe a specific weight lifting regimen. I leave that to the

trainers and coaches.

wrote:

Lastly, my own experience is that exercise without any dietary modification can

improve my allergies significantly, and migraine sufferers in my private MT

practice report fewer headaches when they get sufficient rest and get their

workouts in. I think that the effects of exercise can be conveniently overlooked

by some who make claims for various diets and that exercise in itself can be

quite helpful with a lot of conditions that ail us beyond changing us from

cheesy poof snarfing sofa slugs!

My answer:

You are absolutely correct in your assumptions. Exercise or lack of exercise is

a very important part of our life. The medical literature is loaded with

studies showing the metabolical and psycholgical benefit of exercise.

The problem I see with many dietary studies is that the diet is taken out of

context of the other aspects of the individuals life. The paleo diet for

instance looks at the purported diet of the paleolithic people and compares it

to the diet of modern people and concludes that the diet is the most important

cause of modern day problems.

They don't take into account that peleolithic people spent most of their day

running around (exercising) looking for food or running away from predators.

Paleolithic people had to make their own clothing and shelter. Modern people

spend very little time looking for and preparing their food. You need to take

the effects of diet within the context of an individuals entire lifestyle.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining

Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:42 PM

The whole concept of pH in food and its effect on training is not based on

science or research (there is none to back it up) but rather on conjecture by

professor Codrain and put forth by Joe Friel. Unfortunately readers have taken

this theoretical conjecture and began to publish it as if it where scientific

fact and have put together elaborate diets. I participated in a long discussion

(numerous detailed posts ) on Bicycling Magazine forum

( http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4341067265/m/5471036736/p/1 )

late 2009. I basically refuted the concept that pH in food would have any effect

on the performance of an athlete. One of the posters presented my view point to

Joe Friel. He responded as follows:

*************************

Posted 22 September 2009 08:17 PM

Mr Friel gave me permission to quote from his e-mail. I e-mailed him and said

that there

was an interesting discussion on the forum and acidosis might not be an issue

according

to one knowledgeable poster. He said:

quote:

He may be right. No one knows as there is no research, at least that I’ve ever

seen. We only proposed that it may be a problem, especially in terms of

mineral loss in the bones and muscles

- Joe Friel

*********************

As for metabolic typing I have yet to see any credible science to support this

concept and based on my knowledge of exercise phsyiology as well as the

physiology of disease I have difficulty with the concept. If anyone has any

credible science to back up the concept of metabolic typing and how it is

applied to training please post it.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I don't recall people " over the internet " that a novice lifter should simply

lift heavy and eat more. What I have read is that people on this forum have

answered a question posted by a person who was concerned about his progress.

Using the body of evidence they have been aware of they have given advice that

would suit the needs of a person looking to increase their lean body mass. I

have seen many caveats posted by people on this forum to use proper movement

mechanics. The " possible issues " that arise from exercise (when proper movement

mechanics are employed) should be responses to that exercise, which in this

person's case, if he lifts heavier the adaptation should be increased motor unit

recruitment leading to increased lean body mass. I'm a little unsure of what

potential issues you are actually referring to.

The harm that I see in testing a person's PH is that it can lead that person to

either purchase training or nutrition counseling because they were coerced into

believing that they needed said training, nutrition counseling or as Dr.

Giarnella points out, " ...Improper interpretation can lead to unnecessary and

expensive testing " . This kind of testing could lead one to believe that the

purpose for a PH test is to coerce a person into purchasing training or

nutrition counseling because their trainer is offering what is thought to be

expert advice that is clearly not based on good scientific evidence.

Personally, I offer vary basic research based nutrition advice. This is not

because I am not knowledgeable about nutrition. It's because a person is going

to eat what they want. I have very little influence over what a person is going

to ingest the other 23 to 23.5 hours that they are not with me. My focus is on

what I can control; the quality and intensity of the workouts. I don't lead

people to believe that if they follow my workouts that they will lose 'X''

amount of weight or get that six pack. I tell them the truth, which is they will

see improvements in muscle tone, strength, power and cardio respiratory

conditioning. If they want to lose weight the other factors (sleep stress and

food) need to be addressed.

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish, WA USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40>

Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 3:44 PM

What part of an " individual's pH " are we testing? Blood? Saliva? Urine? Feces?

Tears? Bile? Synovial fluid?

Peoples' bodies contain many different fluids that serve many different

purposes. I admit, I am ignorant of the specific protocol for testing a person's

pH. That may be why there doesn't seem to be any peer-reviewed scientific

evidence (as mentioned by Dr. Giarnella).

Merrick, Ph.D.

Bellevue, NE

>

> Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale. If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items. We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH of

the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one, before

the program begins.

>

> By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

>

> I have been a trainer for 17 years. I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time. I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel. In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have.

>

> This record stands for itself. If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency.

>

> There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs. Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes. The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort. It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against. It

is about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend. If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

(material deleted)

[Guest guest]

As an athlete, I am completely open to a fast, cheap pH test and a reasonable

modification to my diet to see if I think it helps me. There is no point in

further discussion, as discussion takes more time than the pH test.

As a scientist, this certainly merits further discussion and possibly testing

and experimentation, especially if athletes feel it can make a positive

difference.

There is a lot of scientific evidence that both exercise and a high protein diet

have a measurable effect on pH of urine. I have also heard of several doctors

restricting protein intake of patients with kidney problems. I don't think

anyone on this board is disputing either of those - what we are interested in is

athletic performance in healthy athletes.

Brad Bellomo

**Please do not forget to sign posts with your full name, city and country of

residence**

> >

> > Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders diet)

are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of the

scale.  If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load up

on these items.  We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the PH

of the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one,

before the program begins.

> >

> > By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a little

more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

> >

> > I have been a trainer for 17 years.  I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time.  I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel.  In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have. 

> >

> > This record stands for itself.  If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency.

> >

> > There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs.  Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes.  The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort.  It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for or against.  It

is about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend.  If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

> >

> > Tom Capobianco

> > Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> >

> (material deleted)

>

[Guest guest]

There is definitely a point in testing a person's PH since poor interpretation

of the results can lead a person to believe they need further more expensive

testing or some kind of nutrition / exercise counseling that is not based on

good scientific evidence. There is also a point in discussing the test since it

has sparked a long discussion and people that are pro-PH test have done little

to argue the validity of taking such a test in order to improve a training and

nutrition plan.

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish, WA USA

Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

As an athlete, I am completely open to a fast, cheap pH test and a reasonable

modification to my diet to see if I think it helps me. There is no point in

further discussion, as discussion takes more time than the pH test.

As a scientist, this certainly merits further discussion and possibly testing

and experimentation, especially if athletes feel it can make a positive

difference.

There is a lot of scientific evidence that both exercise and a high protein

diet have a measurable effect on pH of urine. I have also heard of several

doctors restricting protein intake of patients with kidney problems. I don't

think anyone on this board is disputing either of those - what we are interested

in is athletic performance in healthy athletes.

Brad Bellomo

**Please do not forget to sign posts with your full name, city and country of

residence**

> >

> > Animal protein and dairy products (usually staples in the bodybuilders

diet) are highly acidic and can draw the individuals PH to the acidic side of

the scale. If the PH is low to begin with, it might not be appropriate to load

up on these items. We are not testing the PH of the food. We are testing the

PH of the individual in order to avoid exacerbating an issue if there is one,

before the program begins.

> >

> > By the way, before anyone rips my processes, please read the posts a

little more carefully. Nobody is testing the PH of the food itself.

> >

> > I have been a trainer for 17 years. I have taught and managed literally

thousands of trainers over that time. I have had hundreds of clients who have

seen stellar results, not just in hypertrophy or weight loss, but in drastic

improvements in the way their bodies work, and how they feel. In addition, I

have had more clients than I can count who tell me regularly that they wish

previous trainers had approached their programs in the way that I have.Â

> >

> > This record stands for itself. If you're going to rip apart a truly

successful way of training folks, at least read the posts, and If I didn't make

myself completely clear in my post, you could at least ask the question with a

little common decency.

> >

> > There is a reason it is illegal for trainers, who are not registered

dieticians, to prescribe nutritional programs.Ã, Most simply don't know enough

about it. I was simply drawing to the attention of the person who asked the

original question that he might look below for a minute before jumping in head

first. The whole process takes up maybe 90 minutes. The wrong exercise or the

wrong food choices could cause him months or years of discomfort. It's not

about " healthy " or " unhealthy " foods that I would advise for orÃ, against. It

is about creating a nutrition program that is right for the individual and being

responsible about what you recommend. If you don't get that despite your own

personal success, then thank God you're not my trainer.

> >

> > Tom Capobianco

> > Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> >

> (material deleted)

>

[Guest guest]

A very interesting and at times lively discussion. I have enjoyed reading the

previous posts.

I have some experience with a number of diet plans as many have been utilised in

professional rugby union over here since the game went pro in 1995.

I agree with much of the criticism of metabolic typing and the fact that

reliable evidence on a large scale for pH testing is just not out there. I have

seen a number of players who (against my advise) adopted a blanket low carb

approach and without exception they have lowered body fat and then broken down

and been out with long term injuries.

However I would just like to point out that all these systems are meant to be

highly specific to the individual. If I looked at a persons diet and it was

highly acidic and this was combined with a lack of performance in a specific

area then I might advise the introduction of some more alkaline foods to create

balance in the diet. If they had an acidic diet and no problems then I would

leave well alone. I think this is really as far as anyone on this forum has

suggested this system be used. Equally I don't really think anyone has been

attacked for the use of pH testing or the principles in general. They are just

rightly pointing out inconsistencies and holes in research lest anyone take a

less considered approach.

On a side note here I have noticed that many overweight individuals who

previously consumed large amounts of carbonated drinks really benefited from a

more alkaline diet more than anyone. It would be great if a detailed study into

thyroid function and diet pH existed. To my knowledge there is no such study.

Unfortunately there are plenty of so called nutrition gurus who are looking to

sell the one size fits all approach to nutrition. The number of people who just

want to be told exactly what to eat make this a far easier sell. Conversely

proving that one system works is a little difficult when you try to conduct a

study with the necessary scientific rigour or random samples and non-selective

populations. This leaves a practitioner left between a rock and a hard place in

terms of scientific justification.

On the topic of bicarbonate I attended a seminar about a year ago where an

extensive review of research and theory on the use of bicarbonate was presented.

There were some impressive results however the fact that bicarbonate loading was

a very disagreeable process for many people renders it unusable in my opinion.

for the record I am on my second cup of coffee this morning. There are

loads of studies that show it has excellent anti-oxidant qualities and other

health and performance benefits. Ill off-set it with a salad later.

Andy Mclean

Edinburgh

Scotland, UK

>

> From: Ralph Giarnella < ragiarn@... >

> Subject: Re: Testing pH and muscle development?

> Supertraining

> Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:42 PM

>

> The whole concept of pH in food and its effect on training is not based on

> science or research (there is none to back it up) but rather on conjecture by

> professor Codrain and put forth by Joe Friel. Unfortunately readers have taken

> this theoretical conjecture and began to publish it as if it where scientific

> fact and have put together elaborate diets. I participated in a long

discussion

> (numerous detailed posts ) on Bicycling Magazine forum

> ( http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4341067265/m/5471036736/p/1 )

> late 2009. I basically refuted the concept that pH in food would have any

effect

>

>

> on the performance of an athlete. One of the posters presented my view point

to

> Joe Friel. He responded as follows:

>

> *************************

>

> Posted 22 September 2009 08:17 PM

> Mr Friel gave me permission to quote from his e-mail. I e-mailed him and said

> that there

>

> was an interesting discussion on the forum and acidosis might not be an issue

> according

>

> to one knowledgeable poster. He said:

> quote:

> He may be right. No one knows as there is no research, at least that I’ve

ever

> seen. We only proposed that it may be a problem, especially in terms of

> mineral loss in the bones and muscles

> - Joe Friel

> *********************

> As for metabolic typing I have yet to see any credible science to support this

> concept and based on my knowledge of exercise phsyiology as well as the

> physiology of disease I have difficulty with the concept. If anyone has any

> credible science to back up the concept of metabolic typing and how it is

> applied to training please post it.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

>