Double Knee Bend?

[Guest guest]

Interested to hear other coaches perspectives:

Harvey Newton:

" To get into a powerful jumping position the ankles, knees and hips are again

bent. In the 1970s this became as known as the double knee bend. It might just

have easily have been called the doble ankle bend or hip bend…Some claim that it

cannot be taught and it simply occurs naturally. "

Bud Charniga:

" There is not now and there has never been a double knee bend in weightlifting.

The reason is that one should not perceive the so called souble knee bend as a

conscious effort from the athlete during the lifting of the barbell. It should

be perceived as the lifter unconsciously following the bar of least resistance

balances the athlete and barbell as a unit to employ the strongest muscles

repeatedly to lift the barbell. "

Mike Burgener wrote:

" For me personally i don't think one can teach it. i teach jump/triple extend

and i feel it happens automatically. the dbl knee bend creates speed thru the

middle and in my opinion when one tries to teach it....it creates paralysis by

analysis. "

Glenn Pendlay wrote:

" The best way to teach the double knee bend is to never say " double knee bend "

and never ever let the athlete know that anything like that is supposed to

happen. As soon as they know they are supposed to do it, half the battle is

lost.

You teach the position of the top pull or second pull first, get comfortable

with that, then teach going from that position to below the knees via ONLY hip

flexion, then teach lowering the bar from the patellar ligament region to the

floor via ONLY knee flexion. You encourage the athlete to raise the bar in the

same manner as he is lowering it, and it is almost impossible to NOT do right.

The only people who have trouble with it are those with an extensive history of

doing things WRONG, or, maybe ex powerlifters who have been pulling off the

floor differently for years and have trouble not relapsing into old habits.

It is really impossible to push the legs off the floor, go from the knee to a

proper second pull position, then jump, without executing a double knee bend. So

you emphasize the positions and let the knee bend happen all by itself. "

Bob Takano:

I'm not completely sold on the idea of teaching the " double knee bend. " Again, I

don't want to disrespect or undermine any experienced coach out there. In fact,

I'm not even trying to be negative about the concept. It's certainly useful and

when done correctly, especially with the right body type, it is extremely

effective. However, in my opinion, as a former elite athlete and now U.S.

coach, I feel the " double knee bend " is a high level concept that should not be

taught to the novice. It's pretty complex for a beginner.

Gayle Hatch:

" The mechanical action in the second part of the pull known as the double knee

bend or scoop is the result of proper technique and is not a direct conscious

act in itself. This action should not be taught. Having coached athletes and

Olympic Weightlifters for thirty years at all levels, ranging from novice to

national champions and Olympians, I can personally vouch that the majority of

coaches who endeavor to teach the double knee bend fail?.

There is not now and nor there has ever been a double knee bend. The reason

that one should not perceive a double knee bend "

" Some teachers focus on the Double knee bend teaching and practicing it

segmentally; research suggests this does not need to be specifically taught or

practiced. (Gentry, 1999) Some believe this to be an overt coached move, others

that it is a natural move that some do or don't have ( 1991, Walsh 1989) "

Mel Siff:

I agree that the lifter should simply enjoy learning the lifts naturally

without any concerted efforst to perfect or accentuate the " double knee

bend " os " scoop " . The " double knee bend " tends to take place to greater or

lesser extent

in all snatches and cleans, even without a deliberate attempt to use it,

especially if you pull the bar over the knees in towards your hips during

the earlier stages of the pull. The rebending of the knee invokes the action

of the gastrocnemius (which also acts as a knee flexor) and returns the knees

to a joint angle where one can once again exert maximum force during the

pull. However, after the basic skills have been acquired, some astute

coaching on how to accentuate the natural knee bending and re-extension

can be profitable - as long as this does not lead to the usual " paralysis by

analysis " . The degree of double knee bending also depends on one's limb

proportions and other individual factors, so what works for one lifter

does not necessarily work so well for another. "

LeRoux wrote:

" Controversial subject. I have seen this one get people upset. I'll just say IMO

if you try to teach it, then the lifter will hip kick. It should come naturally

if the movement is taught correctly and the lifter is allowed to develop the

feel for the lift over time. "

Other:

" Do not try to teach it. It just causes mass confusion. Just teach the real

secret to snatch and clean - fast, close, low. Move as fast as you can, keep

the bar as close as you can, get under the bar as low as you can. I agree with

. If you teach them to keep it close and accelerate, they will naturally

pick up the DKB as the weight gets heavier. Of course, they do need practice

lifting heavy %'s for this to happen.

The " double knee bend " is part of the pull and happens automatically. "

Tamas Feher

" I do not believe that the double knee bend needs to be taught as this is an

unconscious movement. "

Other:

I believe that weightlifters with decent ability will learn to use the

" double-knee bend " instinctively. However, I think if you try to teach the

" double-knee bend " , you end up with lifters kicking the bar away and early. It

is something all of my lifters do but which I never teach.

Pulling - Bulgaria

Carl Olympic Lifting Training Manual 1976

The pulling technique known as the double knee bend, which we have been

trying to explain and teach, was elaborated on by the different coaches at

the European Coaches' Conference in Sofia, Bulgaria. I received insight as

to how we might better describe and teach it in our country when I stayed on

an extra day after the conference was over and had a four hour interview with

the head coach of the Bulgarian team, Ivan Abadjiev.

It was discussed that Kolev, for example, seems to yank the bar off the

floor. This is not exactly what is wanted. Rather, the lifter should make as

fast a start as possible with the leverage at hand. The increasing of the

speed should take place all along the pull as optimum leverage points are

reached and succeeding speed is built on what went before, This is different

from deliberately pulling slow off the floor. The lifter should make use of

every leverage point. lie should not yank the bar in an effort to get speed

and he should not break good body positions. In other words, the lifter

should go as fast as the leverage at hand will permit with good body position.

The fact that muscle loses contractile force rapidly when contracted fast

does not have a negative influence on what has just been said. The rebending

of the knees, or scooping, accomplishes three things:

1. A stretch-reflex action takes place, something like when a basketball

player dips quickly to jump. This makes the quadriceps muscles contract

harder than they could normally be called upon to do.

2. The rebending allows the muscles previously contracting to 'rest' since

they are no longer contracting to cause the upward movement, but are

eccentrically controlling the hips and thighs down and forward.

3. It dramatically shifts the angle of pull so that even though the muscle

has lost much of its contractile force since it has contracted rapidly, the

angle of pull is so much better because of the scoop that it more then makes

up for what the muscle has lost. (This is an important point. Whenever a

choice must be made as to what is more important for power, angle of pull or

strength of muscle, angle of pull outweighs the influence of strength of

muscle.) These things combined with increased momentum of the bar make for a

more powerful overall pull.

In discussing the direction the bar should be pulled, it was pointed out that

theoretically it is desirable for the bar to be pulled in a straight line so

that the straight forces add up to a bigger resultant force than the total of

forces going in different directions. However, this is not possible since the

bar starts from over the metatarsals and must be brought in. A deviation of 5

centimeters (2 inches) is thought to be all right and will not cause swing.

It might be argued that if the bar were placed right next to the ankles then

it could be pulled straight up. But if this were done, the bodyweight would

be centered back on the heels instead of the middle front of the foot. With

the bodyweight thus centered further back, the natural rotation of the back,

even if done perfectly, would cause the bodyweight to go even further back

behind the heels; then the lifter would Jump back and probably swing the bar.

So, the bar has got to be started from the metatarsal part of the foot and

'pulled in'. This pulling in should be, as mentioned, 5 cm (2 in),. It is

more dramatic in the Bulgarian manner of pulling than in the Russian manner.

In the Bulgarian style it is almost hooked in or cradled in, whereas in the

Russian style, it is pulled in on a gradual plane. In either case, it should

not be beyond the 5 cm (2 in), or else a swing will develop.

In some of the Bulgarian lifters, this unwanted swing has developed and is

trying to be worked out. To help correct this, a machine is now being used

with the Bulgarian Senior National Team which measures the distance the bar

is pulled in. The machine also measures the direction of the bar and the

height it reaches. It has worked well with the junior teams and it is hoped

it will now help the senior team.

In starting off the floor, when anatomically feasible (usually with a lifter

of long upper thigh), the lifter should have his hips higher than parallel to

the floor This is for three reasons:

1. With the hips higher, the weight of the bar is more apt to be directed up

instead of back.

2. With the hips higher, the thighs are in better leverage position to exert

maximum force (it is easier to do a squat than a half squat), and since the

legs are one of the prime movers in coming off the floor, they should be in

the best leverage or position.

3. With the hips higher, the lever arm (where the bar would intersect with

the spine) will be decreased, since the back will be lower.

In getting the hips higher than parallel, the lifter should maintain shoulder

width stance with the feet slightly pointed out. A wider stance than this

makes the hips drop. Also, a wide stance means that the bar is not pulled as

high as with a shoulder width or narrower stance since the lifter stands

lower with a wider stance. Having the feet slightly pointed out gets more of

the logo into the pull.

Every effort should be made to not have the knees spread apart when the pull

is done because the knees going out means that the hips drop. This causes

backward movement of the bar, allows the back to come upright too soon, and

thus increases the lever arm (previously explained).

In discussion about the wrists, it was pointed out that in the snatch and the

clean, the less owing at the top, the better; for this reason, it is

desirable to keep the wrists flexed. This throws the elbows forward and out

to the sides. Besides facilitating an upright rowing motion instead of a back

rowing motion, this flexion of the wrists and resulting throwing of the

elbows forward and out makes the traps stretch more, thus having a stronger

effect on the bar. Also, the traps react more strongly since a muscle on

stretch contracts stronger than when it is not on stretch.

Finally, having the elbows thrown forward and out makes the traps pull the

weight up and the scapula raise full distance up the ribs. If the elbows were

back, then the traps would not be able to lift up the scapula efficiently and

the rhomboids would then take the dominant role and pull the scapula back,

thus cutting down on the pull. For the same reason, the head should not be

thrown back at the top. As the back comes into play, the head is tossed back

but then is tucked in at the top of the pull. To have it still going back at

the top means not only will the scapula not go up as far as possible, but

also a final rotation backward would be apt to result.

=================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

British weightlifting perspectives:

Rothwell writes:

As a coach it is not something that I would try and teach. It would be very

difficult to get the complexity of the movement across. My advice would be ''If

the lifter is not doing it naturally leave it alone.

Hamill:

All my lifters have an observable so called Double K B but I have never taught

it. It happens as a consequence of the hip drive which is driven by glute and

hams. If the hams contract violently then they are bound to bend the knee. In

addition the nervous system protects the joints from over extension, and , at

the knee, this is done by the reflex contraction of the hams

One paper I will send deals with a similar reflex action at the ankle.

I suggest that if one measures the duration of the second knee bend it is

obvious that it can not be under conscious control. Roman: The Training of the

Weightlifter, is useful from Sportivny Press; livonia, Michigan. Charniga , who

translates such Russian stuff for sale is on the web so not hard to find

=================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

> " Controversial subject. I have seen this one get people upset. I'll just say

IMO if you try to teach it, then the lifter will hip kick. It should come

naturally if the movement is taught correctly and the lifter is allowed to

develop the feel for the lift over time. "

>

> Other:

> " Do not try to teach it. It just causes mass confusion. Just teach the real

secret to snatch and clean - fast, close, low. Move as fast as you can, keep

the bar as close as you can, get under the bar as low as you can. I agree with

. If you teach them to keep it close and accelerate, they will naturally

pick up the DKB as the weight gets heavier. Of course, they do need practice

lifting heavy %'s for this to happen.

> The " double knee bend " is part of the pull and happens automatically. "

>

> Tamas Feher

> " I do not believe that the double knee bend needs to be taught as this is an

unconscious movement. "

>

> Other:

> I believe that weightlifters with decent ability will learn to use the

" double-knee bend " instinctively. However, I think if you try to teach the

" double-knee bend " , you end up with lifters kicking the bar away and early. It

is something all of my lifters do but which I never teach.

>

>

> Pulling - Bulgaria

>

> Carl Olympic Lifting Training Manual 1976

>

> The pulling technique known as the double knee bend, which we have been

> trying to explain and teach, was elaborated on by the different coaches at

> the European Coaches' Conference in Sofia, Bulgaria. I received insight as

> to how we might better describe and teach it in our country when I stayed on

> an extra day after the conference was over and had a four hour interview with

> the head coach of the Bulgarian team, Ivan Abadjiev.

>

> It was discussed that Kolev, for example, seems to yank the bar off the

> floor. This is not exactly what is wanted. Rather, the lifter should make as

> fast a start as possible with the leverage at hand. The increasing of the

> speed should take place all along the pull as optimum leverage points are

> reached and succeeding speed is built on what went before, This is different

> from deliberately pulling slow off the floor. The lifter should make use of

> every leverage point. lie should not yank the bar in an effort to get speed

> and he should not break good body positions. In other words, the lifter

> should go as fast as the leverage at hand will permit with good body position.

>

> The fact that muscle loses contractile force rapidly when contracted fast

> does not have a negative influence on what has just been said. The rebending

> of the knees, or scooping, accomplishes three things:

>

> 1. A stretch-reflex action takes place, something like when a basketball

> player dips quickly to jump. This makes the quadriceps muscles contract

> harder than they could normally be called upon to do.

>

> 2. The rebending allows the muscles previously contracting to 'rest' since

> they are no longer contracting to cause the upward movement, but are

> eccentrically controlling the hips and thighs down and forward.

>

> 3. It dramatically shifts the angle of pull so that even though the muscle

> has lost much of its contractile force since it has contracted rapidly, the

> angle of pull is so much better because of the scoop that it more then makes

> up for what the muscle has lost. (This is an important point. Whenever a

> choice must be made as to what is more important for power, angle of pull or

> strength of muscle, angle of pull outweighs the influence of strength of

> muscle.) These things combined with increased momentum of the bar make for a

> more powerful overall pull.

>

> In discussing the direction the bar should be pulled, it was pointed out that

> theoretically it is desirable for the bar to be pulled in a straight line so

> that the straight forces add up to a bigger resultant force than the total of

> forces going in different directions. However, this is not possible since the

> bar starts from over the metatarsals and must be brought in. A deviation of 5

> centimeters (2 inches) is thought to be all right and will not cause swing.

>

> It might be argued that if the bar were placed right next to the ankles then

> it could be pulled straight up. But if this were done, the bodyweight would

> be centered back on the heels instead of the middle front of the foot. With

> the bodyweight thus centered further back, the natural rotation of the back,

> even if done perfectly, would cause the bodyweight to go even further back

> behind the heels; then the lifter would Jump back and probably swing the bar.

>

> So, the bar has got to be started from the metatarsal part of the foot and

> 'pulled in'. This pulling in should be, as mentioned, 5 cm (2 in),. It is

> more dramatic in the Bulgarian manner of pulling than in the Russian manner.

> In the Bulgarian style it is almost hooked in or cradled in, whereas in the

> Russian style, it is pulled in on a gradual plane. In either case, it should

> not be beyond the 5 cm (2 in), or else a swing will develop.

>

> In some of the Bulgarian lifters, this unwanted swing has developed and is

> trying to be worked out. To help correct this, a machine is now being used

> with the Bulgarian Senior National Team which measures the distance the bar

> is pulled in. The machine also measures the direction of the bar and the

> height it reaches. It has worked well with the junior teams and it is hoped

> it will now help the senior team.

>

> In starting off the floor, when anatomically feasible (usually with a lifter

> of long upper thigh), the lifter should have his hips higher than parallel to

> the floor This is for three reasons:

>

> 1. With the hips higher, the weight of the bar is more apt to be directed up

> instead of back.

>

> 2. With the hips higher, the thighs are in better leverage position to exert

> maximum force (it is easier to do a squat than a half squat), and since the

> legs are one of the prime movers in coming off the floor, they should be in

> the best leverage or position.

>

> 3. With the hips higher, the lever arm (where the bar would intersect with

> the spine) will be decreased, since the back will be lower.

>

> In getting the hips higher than parallel, the lifter should maintain shoulder

> width stance with the feet slightly pointed out. A wider stance than this

> makes the hips drop. Also, a wide stance means that the bar is not pulled as

> high as with a shoulder width or narrower stance since the lifter stands

> lower with a wider stance. Having the feet slightly pointed out gets more of

> the logo into the pull.

>

> Every effort should be made to not have the knees spread apart when the pull

> is done because the knees going out means that the hips drop. This causes

> backward movement of the bar, allows the back to come upright too soon, and

> thus increases the lever arm (previously explained).

>

> In discussion about the wrists, it was pointed out that in the snatch and the

> clean, the less owing at the top, the better; for this reason, it is

> desirable to keep the wrists flexed. This throws the elbows forward and out

> to the sides. Besides facilitating an upright rowing motion instead of a back

> rowing motion, this flexion of the wrists and resulting throwing of the

> elbows forward and out makes the traps stretch more, thus having a stronger

> effect on the bar. Also, the traps react more strongly since a muscle on

> stretch contracts stronger than when it is not on stretch.

>

> Finally, having the elbows thrown forward and out makes the traps pull the

> weight up and the scapula raise full distance up the ribs. If the elbows were

> back, then the traps would not be able to lift up the scapula efficiently and

> the rhomboids would then take the dominant role and pull the scapula back,

> thus cutting down on the pull. For the same reason, the head should not be

> thrown back at the top. As the back comes into play, the head is tossed back

> but then is tucked in at the top of the pull. To have it still going back at

> the top means not only will the scapula not go up as far as possible, but

> also a final rotation backward would be apt to result.

> =================

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>