Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I'm not answering your question but I have used this NON SPINAL LOADING

WORKOUT below for athletes that can't load the spine for any reason. I'm

sure you can make adjustments as needed.

http://www.xlathlete.com/view_drill.jsp?drill_id=1202 & browse_sport_program_id=24\

5 & drill_type=0

Cal

Minneapolis MN usa

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Tom <tcboc1@...> wrote:

>

>

> This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

> with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however

> all replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a

> gentlemen who suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to

> L4/L5. No surgery performed at this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 "

> and 220lbs or so and I would guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26%

> bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so as to give some indication of physical

> condition. Given the disc issues it is my position that axial loading should

> be of some concern. Especially, barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I

> have observed. Out of concern for the individual, I mentioned my

> reservations regarding this particular exercise as it relates to his disc

> issues. He informed me that through working with his physical therapist and

> chiropractor over the last several years he has been able to return this

> exercise with this kind of weight as long as there is no flexion in the

> torso or rounding of the back. Unfortunately I have observed his form and it

> is less than stellar to say the least. However, it is my current contention

> that even with perfect form this practice is suspect and potentially

> dangerous given his condition. For the benefit of my own education can

> anybody describe for me a scenario in which this individual, under these

> circumstances is clear to barbell squat 315lbs or anything close to that?

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

>

>

--

Cal Dietz

Strength Coach

1901 4th St S.E.

Minneapolis, MN

55455

612-626-7845

[Guest guest]

Cool. Thanks Calvin.  I have plenty of options, but it never hurts to have

more.  Much appreciated.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

>

> This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

> with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however

> all replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a

> gentlemen who suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to

> L4/L5. No surgery performed at this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 "

> and 220lbs or so and I would guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26%

> bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so as to give some indication of physical

> condition. Given the disc issues it is my position that axial loading should

> be of some concern. Especially, barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I

> have observed. Out of concern for the individual, I mentioned my

> reservations regarding this particular exercise as it relates to his disc

> issues. He informed me that through working with his physical therapist and

> chiropractor over the last several years he has been able to return this

> exercise with this kind of weight as long as there is no flexion in the

> torso or rounding of the back. Unfortunately I have observed his form and it

> is less than stellar to say the least. However, it is my current contention

> that even with perfect form this practice is suspect and potentially

> dangerous given his condition. For the benefit of my own education can

> anybody describe for me a scenario in which this individual, under these

> circumstances is clear to barbell squat 315lbs or anything close to that?

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

>

>

--

Cal Dietz

Strength Coach

1901 4th St S.E.

Minneapolis, MN

55455

612-626-7845

[Guest guest]

I remember reading an article in an older (around the late 80's or early 90's)

PL USA where Doyle Kennedy deadlifted over 900 lbs. in front of a large vet

flouroscope. It showed no adverse spinal or vertebral compression. The author of

the article - Dr. Judd I believe - argued that the muscles in the back and abs

work in concert to hold the weight and the bar does not actually compress the

vertebral bodies. The caveat to squatting with disc issues though is to perform

the lift correctly.

My question would be unless this person is competing in the squat why is he

squatting when there are plenty of other leg exercises - lunges, step ups, belt

squats and so on - that challenge the legs without as much injury risk?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish, WA USA

>

> >

> >

> > This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

> > with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however

> > all replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a

> > gentlemen who suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to

> > L4/L5. No surgery performed at this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 "

> > and 220lbs or so and I would guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26%

> > bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so as to give some indication of physical

> > condition. Given the disc issues it is my position that axial loading should

> > be of some concern. Especially, barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I

> > have observed. Out of concern for the individual, I mentioned my

> > reservations regarding this particular exercise as it relates to his disc

> > issues. He informed me that through working with his physical therapist and

> > chiropractor over the last several years he has been able to return this

> > exercise with this kind of weight as long as there is no flexion in the

> > torso or rounding of the back. Unfortunately I have observed his form and it

> > is less than stellar to say the least. However, it is my current contention

> > that even with perfect form this practice is suspect and potentially

> > dangerous given his condition. For the benefit of my own education can

> > anybody describe for me a scenario in which this individual, under these

> > circumstances is clear to barbell squat 315lbs or anything close to that?

> >

> > Tom Capobianco

> > Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

>

> Cal Dietz

> Strength Coach

> 1901 4th St S.E.

> Minneapolis, MN

> 55455

> 612-626-7845

>

>

[Guest guest]

Casey,

 

Would a deadlift qualify as an axial load?  It seems the squat, which is truly

an axial load by definition, would certainly create compression in the

vertebrae.  I hope that more folks here on ST will engage in this discussion. 

Maybe I'm sticking to closely to a hard and fast rule, or maybe this cat is

really going to hurt himself.  Why is he squatting?  Lol. That's a good

question.  It's what his buddies are doing...  It's a good gym, but somewhat

of a meathead mentality.  Thanks for the feedback.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

From: gallagher220 <gallagher2201@...>

Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

Supertraining

Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 8:30 PM

 

I remember reading an article in an older (around the late 80's or early 90's)

PL USA where Doyle Kennedy deadlifted over 900 lbs. in front of a large vet

flouroscope. It showed no adverse spinal or vertebral compression. The author of

the article - Dr. Judd I believe - argued that the muscles in the back and abs

work in concert to hold the weight and the bar does not actually compress the

vertebral bodies. The caveat to squatting with disc issues though is to perform

the lift correctly.

My question would be unless this person is competing in the squat why is he

squatting when there are plenty of other leg exercises - lunges, step ups, belt

squats and so on - that challenge the legs without as much injury risk?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish, WA USA

>

> >

> >

> > This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

> > with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however

> > all replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a

> > gentlemen who suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to

> > L4/L5. No surgery performed at this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 "

> > and 220lbs or so and I would guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26%

> > bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so as to give some indication of physical

> > condition. Given the disc issues it is my position that axial loading should

> > be of some concern. Especially, barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I

> > have observed. Out of concern for the individual, I mentioned my

> > reservations regarding this particular exercise as it relates to his disc

> > issues. He informed me that through working with his physical therapist and

> > chiropractor over the last several years he has been able to return this

> > exercise with this kind of weight as long as there is no flexion in the

> > torso or rounding of the back. Unfortunately I have observed his form and it

> > is less than stellar to say the least. However, it is my current contention

> > that even with perfect form this practice is suspect and potentially

> > dangerous given his condition. For the benefit of my own education can

> > anybody describe for me a scenario in which this individual, under these

> > circumstances is clear to barbell squat 315lbs or anything close to that?

> >

> > Tom Capobianco

> > Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

>

> Cal Dietz

> Strength Coach

> 1901 4th St S.E.

> Minneapolis, MN

> 55455

> 612-626-7845

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tom,

The loads created from deadlifting are similar to those of squatting - depending

on where a person holds the bar on their shoulders when they squat - but they

aren't exactly the same. I would argue that when a person squats the load isn't

directly transferred to the vertebrae. Muscle contraction supporting each spinal

vertabrae keeps that from happening. It's when a person loses lordosis during

the squat. that things might get dangerous.

It's my opinion that the notion or " rule " that a lift (by lift I mean a ground

based free weight movement) is dangerous or bad for certain parts of the body

because people who have little business performing such lifts would hurt

themselves. These people go to their doctors and complain that their injury was

caused by that lift. Based on such anectdotal evidence (and the 5 minutes the

doctor spends interviewing the patient) the doctor starts to develop the theory

that a specific lift is bad or dangerous for a certain part of the body. This

theory is then propagated by some shoddy news or magazine story then furthered

along by manufacturers of exercise machines, which is almost exactly what

happened with Nautilus in the 80's and 90's

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish, WA USA

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

> > > with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however

> > > all replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a

> > > gentlemen who suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to

> > > L4/L5. No surgery performed at this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 "

> > > and 220lbs or so and I would guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26%

> > > bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so as to give some indication of physical

> > > condition. Given the disc issues it is my position that axial loading

should

> > > be of some concern. Especially, barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I

> > > have observed. Out of concern for the individual, I mentioned my

> > > reservations regarding this particular exercise as it relates to his disc

> > > issues. He informed me that through working with his physical therapist

and

> > > chiropractor over the last several years he has been able to return this

> > > exercise with this kind of weight as long as there is no flexion in the

> > > torso or rounding of the back. Unfortunately I have observed his form and

it

> > > is less than stellar to say the least. However, it is my current

contention

> > > that even with perfect form this practice is suspect and potentially

> > > dangerous given his condition. For the benefit of my own education can

> > > anybody describe for me a scenario in which this individual, under these

> > > circumstances is clear to barbell squat 315lbs or anything close to that?

> > >

> > > Tom Capobianco

> > > Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> >

> > Cal Dietz

> > Strength Coach

> > 1901 4th St S.E.

> > Minneapolis, MN

> > 55455

> > 612-626-7845

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm a known proponent of the pull - but I'd say you're correct in saying the DL

isn't really the same axial issue..

I'd say let him try to pull - starting lightly and well, running interference

with the meatheads sigh.

I'd also suggest you have him do the conventional or mod sumo but not full sumo.

The DL is now in use for rehab.. so perhaps it will make it possible for this

cat to resume squatting well someday?

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

Supertraining

Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 8:30 PM

I remember reading an article in an older (around the late 80's or early 90's)

PL USA where Doyle Kennedy deadlifted over 900 lbs. in front of a large vet

flouroscope. It showed no adverse spinal or vertebral compression. The author of

the article - Dr. Judd I believe - argued that the muscles in the back and abs

work in concert to hold the weight and the bar does not actually compress the

vertebral bodies. The caveat to squatting with disc issues though is to perform

the lift correctly.

My question would be unless this person is competing in the squat why is he

squatting when there are plenty of other leg exercises - lunges, step ups, belt

squats and so on - that challenge the legs without as much injury risk?

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Snohomish, WA USA

>

> >

> >

> > This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

> > with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however

> > all replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a

> > gentlemen who suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to

> > L4/L5. No surgery performed at this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 "

> > and 220lbs or so and I would guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26%

> > bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so as to give some indication of physical

> > condition. Given the disc issues it is my position that axial loading should

> > be of some concern. Especially, barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I

> > have observed. Out of concern for the individual, I mentioned my

> > reservations regarding this particular exercise as it relates to his disc

> > issues. He informed me that through working with his physical therapist and

> > chiropractor over the last several years he has been able to return this

> > exercise with this kind of weight as long as there is no flexion in the

> > torso or rounding of the back. Unfortunately I have observed his form and it

> > is less than stellar to say the least. However, it is my current contention

> > that even with perfect form this practice is suspect and potentially

> > dangerous given his condition. For the benefit of my own education can

> > anybody describe for me a scenario in which this individual, under these

> > circumstances is clear to barbell squat 315lbs or anything close to that?

> >

> > Tom Capobianco

> > Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

>

> Cal Dietz

> Strength Coach

> 1901 4th St S.E.

> Minneapolis, MN

> 55455

> 612-626-7845

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>>> This question of primarily for the medical professionals, especially those

with extensive knowledge of the skeletal system and spinal issues, however all

replies are welcome. In one of the gyms I train out of there is a gentlemen who

suffers from severe degenerative disc issues relative to L4/L5.>>>

***

Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer from

severe degeneration disc problems.

Thanks

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much .  Much appreciated.

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

In one of the gyms I train out of there is a gentlemen who suffers from

severe degenerative disc issues relative to L4/L5. No surgery performed at

this time. He is approx 30 years old, 6'2 " and 220lbs or so and I would

guess him at somewhere between 22 and 26% bodyfat. I mention the bodyfat so

as to give some indication of physical condition. Given the disc issues it

is my position that axial loading should be of some concern. Especially,

barbell squats with at least 315lbs that I have observed. Out of concern

for the individual, I mentioned my reservations regarding this particular

exercise as it relates to his disc issues. He informed me that through

working with his physical therapist and chiropractor over the last several

years he has been able to return this exercise with this kind of weight as

long as there is no flexion in the torso or rounding of the back.

Casler writes:

No one can actually offer definitive advice for this individual since the

extent and cause of his medical condition is not known. One might wonder

why a 30 year old has degenerative disc disease (injury? Disease? Other?)

However in general terms disc health and rehabilitation if and when possible

at all, will include cyclic compressions and decompressions to increase the

fluid exchange/hydration process known as diffusion. This is the primary

route to supplying the disc with nutrients since there is little to no blood

supply except to the external annulus. Depending on how extensive the

degeneration is a key element to his rehabilitation.

Axial or ANY type of loading should always be a concern with spinal disc

problems, but the key to rehabbing is reconditioning the TSM (Torso

Stabilization Mechanism). The TSM is the sum total of anatomical soft and

hard tissues, and the volitional and reflexive motor impulses, and force

management processes that manage the forces and loads to, through, and from

the TORSO. Any load can be TOO MUCH, if the TSM is not well conditioned and

functioning properly.

While 315# may seem like a significant amount, I have a disc injury that I

continually rehab (it is a never ending process) and have often used in

excess of 400# and I am over 60 years old. My ability to do this stems from

a very comprehensive and continual training protocol that maintains a high

state of condition to the TSM.

Now you mention axial loading but suggest that this trainee might use " bad

form " . Quite useful form can often be considered " bad " . By that I DO NOT

mean loaded spinal flexion, but in some levels of TSM training it is useful

to lean forward to activate the TSM progressively as long as steps are taken

and awareness built as to what needs to occur in the torso to handle the

loads and cause the conditioning. Of primary concern is learning how to

distribute load forces to the disc in a way that offers the most effective

loading.

If your guy is NOT aware of the elements required for the highest levels of

Torso Stabilization (and few are) then there is a good chance he is simply

an accident waiting to happen. But if he either volitionally or reflexively

is doing the right things then he may be helping his condition (but again we

don't know the original cause and 30 is TOO YOUNG to have disc deterioration

in general)

I, like him, find that if I DON'T train with heavy squats or DL's then I

lose the higher condition of the TSM and back problems result. My whole

purpose for heavy squats is not Leg Strength which is virtually " useless "

without a conditioned torso, but to maintain that KINETIC CHAIN from

shoulders to feet. Why develop leg strength beyond that which can be used

through the torso. A significant imbalance between leg strength and torso

strength may be even more dangerous.

I think if you saw my squats, you (and most anyone) would be critical of the

form since I lean forward to a significant amount, just shy of a Good

Morning/Squat hybrid. I use this seemingly " incorrect form " to actually

" over stress " my hips and spinal extensors to be in better condition than

the strength of my legs, so as NOT to be subject to legs stronger than my

torso/back.

The level of conditioning it, and all the associated protocol present is the

only way I know to do the job. Please know that years ago in beginning this

protocol, I began with the 45# bar ONLY and quickly added weight to about

225#, then only added 10#-15# a week till I reached a little over 500# for

reps. Do the math, it took the better part of 2 years, to get there in SLOW

progressive steps. Also please know that this was employed in a protocol

that used Opposing and Balanced Loaded actions in an alternating fashion to

create the " Cyclic compressions and decompressions " I mentioned earlier. I

occasionally give seminars and workshops on this since it is NOT something

that can be explained in a few posts.

One must totally understand the basic anatomy involved (including the disc

structure and mechanics) as well as all the biomechanics involved in

managing various types of loading in order for it to NOT be potentially

dangerous.

Wish I had more time to post to this.

==================================

[Guest guest]

I do not. Unfortunately, he was not open to discussing the issue.  Thanks for

asking.

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

From: carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@...>

Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

Supertraining

Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 3:01 PM

Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer from

severe degeneration disc problems.

[Guest guest]

I don't know if load is so much as important as proper movement patterns, a

la Gray Cook and Gray. Poor movement patters and poor core weakness

could be a cause of the DDD, especially consider you already mentioned he

has poor form.

Check out my favorites list on youtube for more of what I am referring to.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CFC9F90026E6EDF0

Thanks,

Buddy

-----------

Buddy A. Touchinsky, D.C.

www.drtouchinsky.com

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Tom Capobianco <tcboc1@...> wrote:

>

>

> I do not. Unfortunately, he was not open to discussing the issue. Thanks

> for asking.

>

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

>

>

> From: carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@... <Carruthersjam%40aol.com>>

> Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 3:01 PM

>

>

> Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer

> from severe degeneration disc problems.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps I'm mistaken , but neither Tom's original post nor any of his

subsequent replies say that this person is a client. Rather, he's a person who

lifts at a gym where Tom lifts, and he is (or was) under the care of a physical

therapist and chiropractor. If I've read the posts from Tom correctly, he's

proposing to give this man advice " out of concern, " i.e., gratuitously.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

>

>

> From: carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@...>

> Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

> Supertraining

> Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 3:01 PM

>

>

> Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer from

severe degeneration disc problems.

>

[Guest guest]

Just for clarification:

 

I am not currently trying to address the issue of this particular individual. 

I have no additional history, nor will I be addressing his form as he is not my

client.  I am simply trying to ascertain through medical experts in this group

if an individual with severe disc issues should EVER be doing a barbell squat,

especially with significant weight.  Thanks.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

> From: carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@... <Carruthersjam%40aol.com>>

> Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 3:01 PM

>

>

> Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer

> from severe degeneration disc problems.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tom, et al,

fwiw, it is my opinion - and let us very clear here that I am not the last

work on any subject - that any degree of disc degeneration shoudl not

engage in 'standard' axial loading, in this case, barbell squats.

Note that I wrote -'standard'. If we are to engage Wolff's law (not

sure that I spelled that correctly. let's let that go for now) , then a very

low grade and increnmentally increasing loading program, wil in fact,

strengtrhen teh disc tissues.

But here we have to separate the nature of the disc leison. There are

multiple types. Narrowing due to erosionary forces only, then ok. See

above. Herniation - absolutey verboten, imo. A bulge....then the person

would need to tread very carefully, with extreme attention paid to disc

nutrition, posture, and a host of other factors pointed at normalization of

spinal forces.

A vacuum disc phenom...I would be hesitant, but a slow steady protocol

of proper weight work would probably be ok as the annular fibers are

strengthened.

In all of these cases, no one is talking about the anterior and

posterior longitudinal ligaments. These two lig's are the secondary

reinforcing structures for the disc, along with holding the spine together,

in general. Fortunately, as the disc is a ligament also, the nutritional

elements are the same. But daily posture becomes a important driving

force, and does exercise in general.

There are other disc issues, but are very low, %-wise. These, above,

are the majors.

Dr Einhorn

Stamford

Miami

_____

From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]

On Behalf Of Tom Capobianco

Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 10:18 AM

Supertraining

Subject: Re: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

Just for clarification:

I am not currently trying to address the issue of this particular

individual. I have no additional history, nor will I be addressing his form

as he is not my client. I am simply trying to ascertain through medical

experts in this group if an individual with severe disc issues should EVER

be doing a barbell squat, especially with significant weight. Thanks.

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

> From: carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@...

<mailto:Carruthersjam%40aol.com> <Carruthersjam%40aol.com>>

> Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

> Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40>

<Supertraining%40>

> Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 3:01 PM

>

>

> Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer

> from severe degeneration disc problems.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm a n00b here and very late to the conversation.

I am not a medical professional, so keep that in mind.

10 years ago I suffered an injury during a 1RM deadlift. My form went out

and, despite all my training and experience, I chose to hoist the weight up

and ended up herniating *and* rupturing my disc at L4/L5, effectively

ending my powerlifting career. I've had visits to numerous doctors inc.

chiropractors, neurosurgeons, orthopedists, everything. Ultimately it was

decided that surgery was unlikely to " fix " anything. The only thing that

has worked: Make my back stronger.

In the years following the injury, my time at the gym dwindled to zero due

to the pain and other life factors. However, I started back last year,

concentrating primarily on strength, though powerlifting is obviously out of

the question. Strengthening my back has been the key to alleviating my back

pain and I am now able to squat & deadlift. However, true maximal effort for

anything below say 6 reps is completely out of the question. I've done

singles in the squat with weights that are, in my estimation, about 50lbs

below what I can actually lift. It is a hard balancing act, figuring out

what & how to lift.

As a more direct answer to the below post, axial loads have not been a

problem for me, although I do experience discomfort with > 315 on the bar

for squats. I've never had anything beyond that discomfort, though it was

probably because I decided not to push it. The only issues I've had was

with Hack Squats which IMO was not due to an axial load but rather my poor

execution of them.

Karl Groves

City and country?

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Tom Capobianco <tcboc1@...> wrote:

>

>

> /All,

>

> You are correct this person is not a client. In addition, I will not be

> attempting to discuss this with him any further as he is not open to further

> discussion. What I am trying to do is further my own education.

>

> I believe the human body can overcome a great deal and return to functional

> ability even in severe cases with proper time, protocol, nutrition etc..

> However, It has been my contention for some time that axial loading with

> significant disc issues, using significant amounts of weight is flat out

> dangerous. However, after hearing from this person that his Physical

> Therapist and his Chiro were aware that he was squatting and were ok with

> that, I wanted to get feedback from medical experts/professionals to see if

> I was holding too closely to a hard and fast rule.

>

> This is what I'm attempting to determine. I find it hard to believe that

> once an individual has a severe disc issue that creating a downward force on

> the spine with substantial amounts of weight can actually be ok. Especially

> when one considers how easily a disc can become damaged in the first place.

> ly, I'm considering eliminating the heavy barbell version from my own

> program for that reason even though I don't have any disc issues. It seems

> the opinion of the group is that with proper protocol, nutrition, time,

> heavy loaded squatting is ok for certain people under certain

> circumstances. This is usually where I live with these types of question as

> I rarely accept any definitive answer. I generally don't believe there is

> yes or no to any of these types of questions. Unfortunately, I am not yet

> convinced that the practice is suitable and heretofore keep an open mind

> while continuing to eliminate heavy barbell squats from the programs

> of my clients who have disc issues.

>

> Thanks to all. Happy New Year!

>

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

>

>

>

> From: pushprogress <pushprogress@... <pushprogress%40>>

> Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 7:54 AM

>

>

>

> Perhaps I'm mistaken , but neither Tom's original post nor any of his

> subsequent replies say that this person is a client. Rather, he's a person

> who lifts at a gym where Tom lifts, and he is (or was) under the care of a

> physical therapist and chiropractor. If I've read the posts from Tom

> correctly, he's proposing to give this man advice " out of concern, " i.e.,

> gratuitously.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

>

> >

> >

> > From: carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@...>

> > Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

> > Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> > Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 3:01 PM

> >

> >

> > Do you have any more history regarding the client? Seems young to suffer

> from severe degeneration disc problems.

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Tom,

Dr. Stuart McGill is the prime research authority on spinal biomechanics--see

his books " Low Back Disorders " and " Ultimate Back Conditioning and Performance " .

His major findings show us that axial loading isn't, by itself, a problem.

Instead, a person needs to maintain a lumbar spine buttressed in neutral and

prevent lumbar spinal flexion. In his research, he actually captured a spinal

injury happening when the powerlifter whose spine he was examining under

fluroscopy had a single segment buckle into full flexion when all the other

segments were locked into a neutral configuration. He describes the finding in

" Low Back Disorders " . I've also heard him present at conferences several times

and his stuff is top notch. I am not a physician or medical professional, but

my master's degree is in exercise science with work in biomechanics.

The mechanism of herniation, especially in light of McGill's findings, is loaded

spinal flexion. Simple axial loading that maintains a neutral spine is quite a

stable position. it becomes the function of the various trunk extensors and

other torso muscles to stiffen and maintain neutral spine under the load.

I have been diagnosed with " degenerative disk disease " about 18 years ago. Yet

I am pretty much stronger (and smarter) now as a competitive powerlifter than I

was then, even " raw " (unequipped). One exercise that I have used in my training

is a " walkout " : I load a bar heavier than I squat, or even deadlift, unrack it

and step back as though to squat, and hold for a count of 5-8. I then walk it

back and rerack it, step out from under the bar, and repeat for 3-5 reps. I've

performed it without a belt and with a belt (only in preparation for a meet to

get my body accustomed to maintaining its stiffness even with the belt in

place). This move really can help wake up the spinal stabilizers from the

" inside out " , so to speak.

So your " hard and fast rule " might need some re-evaluation. First, physicians

aren't trained in exercise. Second, what are the client's goals? Third, how

well can the client squat with a stick or very light weight (bar alone)? I

highly recommend you check out Dr. McGill's material. Not everyone needs to do

heavy squats, but everyone needs to be able to squat or they'll never be able to

sit in a chair or on a toilet again without catching themselves on their hands.

Some people, once they've established fundamental stability, might need to trade

off risk vs benefit due to the nature of the tasks of their lives.

I hope this helps!

Merrick, Ph.D.

ACSM HFS, NSCA-CPT/CSCS

Bellevue, NE

>

> /All,

>

> You are correct this person is not a client. In addition, I will not be

attempting to discuss this with him any further as he is not open to further

discussion.  What I am trying to do is further my own education. 

>

> I believe the human body can overcome a great deal and return to functional

ability even in severe cases with proper time, protocol, nutrition etc..

However, It has been my contention for some time that axial loading with

significant disc issues, using significant amounts of weight is flat out

dangerous.  However, after hearing from this person that his Physical Therapist

and his Chiro were aware that he was squatting and were ok with that, I wanted

to get feedback from medical experts/professionals to see if I was holding too

closely to a hard and fast rule.

>

> This is what I'm attempting to determine. I find it hard to believe that once

an individual has a severe disc issue that creating a downward force on the

spine with substantial amounts of weight can actually be ok.  Especially when

one considers how easily a disc can become damaged in the first place.  ly,

I'm considering eliminating the heavy barbell version from my own program for

that reason even though I don't have any disc issues.  It seems the opinion of

the group is that with proper protocol, nutrition, time, heavy loaded squatting

is ok for certain people under certain circumstances.  This is usually where I

live with these types of question as I rarely accept any definitive answer.  I

generally don't believe there is yes or no to any of these types of questions. 

Unfortunately, I am not yet convinced that the practice is suitable and

heretofore keep an open mind while continuing to eliminate heavy barbell squats

from the programs of my clients who have disc issues.

>

> Thanks to all.  Happy New Year!

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> (material deleted)

[Guest guest]

,

 

This response is in line with my perception of the situation.  I agree the

person needs to be able to squat for functional reasons.  Heavy barbell

squatting was the question.  While it seems that the consensus is, even heavy

barbell squatting can be appropriate under the circumstances, it also seems from

the material you presented that even a small amount of spinal flexion can cause

further damage which was my concern. 

 

Obviously, choices need to be related to goals as well.  One of the reasons I

questioned this person using heavy barbell squats is the fact that he is not a

competitive power lifter, bodybuilder etc. 

 

At this point, I still believe I will continue to eliminate heavy axial loading

from client protocols who have disc issues.  I guess in the end, it can be ok,

but risk vs. reward has to be considered and frankly, there are a myriad of ways

to strengthen the torso and use challenging squat movements that don't

necessarily present as much risk for further damage. Thank you very much for

your input.

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA 

From: samuel9888 <Sam68123@...>

Subject: Re: Axial loading and degenerative disc issues

Supertraining

Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 2:38 PM

 

Hello Tom,

Dr. Stuart McGill is the prime research authority on spinal biomechanics--see

his books " Low Back Disorders " and " Ultimate Back Conditioning and Performance " .

His major findings show us that axial loading isn't, by itself, a problem.

Instead, a person needs to maintain a lumbar spine buttressed in neutral and

prevent lumbar spinal flexion. In his research, he actually captured a spinal

injury happening when the powerlifter whose spine he was examining under

fluroscopy had a single segment buckle into full flexion when all the other

segments were locked into a neutral configuration. He describes the finding in

" Low Back Disorders " . I've also heard him present at conferences several times

and his stuff is top notch. I am not a physician or medical professional, but my

master's degree is in exercise science with work in biomechanics.

The mechanism of herniation, especially in light of McGill's findings, is loaded

spinal flexion. Simple axial loading that maintains a neutral spine is quite a

stable position. it becomes the function of the various trunk extensors and

other torso muscles to stiffen and maintain neutral spine under the load.

I have been diagnosed with " degenerative disk disease " about 18 years ago. Yet I

am pretty much stronger (and smarter) now as a competitive powerlifter than I

was then, even " raw " (unequipped). One exercise that I have used in my training

is a " walkout " : I load a bar heavier than I squat, or even deadlift, unrack it

and step back as though to squat, and hold for a count of 5-8. I then walk it

back and rerack it, step out from under the bar, and repeat for 3-5 reps. I've

performed it without a belt and with a belt (only in preparation for a meet to

get my body accustomed to maintaining its stiffness even with the belt in

place). This move really can help wake up the spinal stabilizers from the

" inside out " , so to speak.

So your " hard and fast rule " might need some re-evaluation. First, physicians

aren't trained in exercise. Second, what are the client's goals? Third, how well

can the client squat with a stick or very light weight (bar alone)? I highly

recommend you check out Dr. McGill's material. Not everyone needs to do heavy

squats, but everyone needs to be able to squat or they'll never be able to sit

in a chair or on a toilet again without catching themselves on their hands. Some

people, once they've established fundamental stability, might need to trade off

risk vs benefit due to the nature of the tasks of their lives.

I hope this helps!

Merrick, Ph.D.

ACSM HFS, NSCA-CPT/CSCS

Bellevue, NE

>

> /All,

>

> You are correct this person is not a client. In addition, I will not be

attempting to discuss this with him any further as he is not open to further

discussion.  What I am trying to do is further my own education. 

>

> I believe the human body can overcome a great deal and return to functional

ability even in severe cases with proper time, protocol, nutrition etc..

However, It has been my contention for some time that axial loading with

significant disc issues, using significant amounts of weight is flat out

dangerous.  However, after hearing from this person that his Physical Therapist

and his Chiro were aware that he was squatting and were ok with that, I wanted

to get feedback from medical experts/professionals to see if I was holding too

closely to a hard and fast rule.

>

> This is what I'm attempting to determine. I find it hard to believe that once

an individual has a severe disc issue that creating a downward force on the

spine with substantial amounts of weight can actually be ok.  Especially when

one considers how easily a disc can become damaged in the first place. 

ly, I'm considering eliminating the heavy barbell version from my own

program for that reason even though I don't have any disc issues.  It seems the

opinion of the group is that with proper protocol, nutrition, time, heavy loaded

squatting is ok for certain people under certain circumstances.  This is

usually where I live with these types of question as I rarely accept any

definitive answer.  I generally don't believe there is yes or no to any of

these types of questions.  Unfortunately, I am not yet convinced that the

practice is suitable and heretofore keep an open mind while continuing to

eliminate heavy barbell squats from the programs

of my clients who have disc issues.

>

> Thanks to all.  Happy New Year!

> Tom Capobianco

> Cincinnati, Ohio USA

> (material deleted)

[Guest guest]

,

 

I'm not sure why I didn't see all this previously.  I agree entirely with every

word.  TSM conditioning is at the very " core " , lol of my personal protocol as

well as that of my clients. I am a functional trainer for the most part,

although I " grew up " in fitness as a bodybuilder.

 

In more than one response, many have reported that the movement can be used, but

with great care to eliminate spinal flexion.  With this I agree entirely. 

What I also know from my own experience is that I can use functional movements

with far less than the 385 lbs that I can squat for fifteen reps and still

maintain my ability to squat 385lbs for fifteen even if I haven't done it for 6

months.  What this tells me is, I can condition, recondition etc. the TSM with

excellent results, both for myself and my clients without subjecting them to the

risks involved with that kind of loading.  Thanks very much for all of your

input. 

 

What's interesting is, I wish this gentlement would let me put him through a

functional movement screen and stability analysis so I could demonstrate for him

that he is not ready to perform the exercise with 1.5 times his body weight. 

Unfortunately, myself and my clients will benefit from this discourse but he

will not. 

 

Happy New Year to all!

 

Tom Capobianco

Cincinnati, Ohio USA

ly, I'm considering eliminating the heavy barbell version from my own

program for that reason even though I don't have any disc issues.  It seems

the opinion of the group is that with proper protocol, nutrition, time,

heavy loaded squatting is ok for certain people under certain

circumstances.  This is usually where I live with these types of question as

I rarely accept any definitive answer.  I generally don't believe there is

yes or no to any of these types of questions.  Unfortunately, I am not yet

convinced that the practice is suitable and heretofore keep an open mind

while continuing to eliminate heavy barbell squats from the programs of my

clients who have disc issues. 

Casler writes:

While I don't subscribe to the adage " That which does not kill thee, makes

thee stronger " , I do suggest that you need to consider that NOT training an

area MOST CERTAINLY makes it weaker.

And while there are ways to avoid training with Squats, DL's etc, your life

will still require that you be able to lift, stand, sit, and maybe jump or

run. All these will be safer, and better if you have a well conditioned TSM

rather than avoiding the TORSO and creating an imbalance of leg strength

(via non-squat actions) and then not having the Torso Conditioning (and disc

conditioning) to allow it to be safely and effectively managed through the

Kinetic Chain.

It is FAR MORE effective to start at " STEP ONE " (as I mentioned in a

previous post) and begin your conditioning with the bar only and with the

smallest progressions move the load upward, and perform thousands of reps

over the period of a few years that will produce a better condition. Egos

often need to be checked at the door to do this.

However, it is important that you understand that my comments are with the

assumption, you know what you are doing and understand the Biomechanics of

the TSM enough to benefit from such a program.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems

Century City, CA

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