Re: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and joints

[Guest guest]

,

I like your answer. Unfortunately it's common in this forum to reply in

disbelief to research articles, just after reading the abstract, but without

having bothered to read the article.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:55 PM, phillip g <pmg68@...> wrote:

>

>

> ,

>

> The burden of proof goes both ways. It's easy for her to simply refute what

> others say (sometimes in a way that seems attacking) without providing any

> proof of her to back it up. It's easy for Lynda to berate his post as absurd

> and then offer no proof to refute his claims. If she or you wish for proof

> here you go " Loading of the tissue due to use of the joint creates

> mechanical,

> electrical, and physicochemical signals that help to direct the

> synthetic and degradative activity of chondrocytes. " from Buckwalter

> JA, Mankin

> HJ.Articular cartilage: tissue design and

> chondrocyte-matrix interactions.Instr Course Lect.

> 1998;47:477-86. Before people on here attack others, i think it's wise to

> have evidence to the contrary.

>

> Garrison

> Mesa, Arizona

>

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> From: andrewmclean66@... <andrewmclean66%40>

> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:43:18 +0000

> Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

> joints

>

>

> Hi Philip

>

> I think 's point is basically that there are a lot of bold statements

> being bandied around that seem to have little or no scientific support (that

> has been quoted - if it exists please reference)

>

> In your last post you stated:

>

> " The fact remains, joints get a lot of their circulation of nutrients and

> elimination of waste materials from the mechanical pressure of movement

> which causes greater circulation of the lymphatic system

>

> and synovial fluids "

>

> If this is fact (and I'm not saying that it isn't) then please provide us

> with some scientifically rigorous studies that support it. Also if you or

> other posters are proposing the use a trampoline what is the difference

> between jumping and walking or for that matter most any type of exercise? As

> you say mechanical pressure causes greater circulation.

>

> As far as being antagonistic I for one welcome this. Don't be afraid

> of people disputing or arguing with you... it is what this forum is for -

> debate and counter argument. If you just want people to agree with you and

> take what you say without question then there are no end of online gurus

> that you can go to.

>

> =========================

>

>

[Guest guest]

The lymphatic system as well as the venous system depends on muscle contraction

to return lymphatic fluid, in the case of the lymph system, or blood, in the

case of the blood system, back to the heart for redistribution.

Any form of activity that contracts muscles will serve this purpose. Even

minimal activity such as walking the dog is sufficient to keep both lymphatic

and venous system.

We could debate all day which activity is better and unless one could present

clear cut scientific evidence such as flow studies to compare various activities

we will never know which activity is the best. It probably does not matter

which is best in the absolute sense but what is best for the individual.

Based on my personal experience of studying human anatomy, physiology and

pathology for the past 50 years I cannot tell you whether jumping on a

trampoline or riding a bike is better.

In my opinion the best activity is the one that you will perform willingly and

regularly. Lifting weights, riding bikes, running, swimming etc are all

activities that will help pump lymph and venous blood and keep us healthy.

The same can be said of synovial fluid although it never leaves the confines of

the synovial sack or membrane. The transport of nutrients and removal of waste

products in the synovium is more of passive and gradient dependent activity.

As for the questioning another individuals assertions on this forum, ever

since I have been participating in this forum questioning assertions has been

the norm. The only way we can learn is to question the validity of a statment

when it does not fit with what we have learned in the past. The most important

question in learning is : WHY? When we stop asking why we stop learning.

" Because I said so " is never a good answer whether it be to our children, when

they ask us why for the umpteenth time, or our collegues who do not understand

what we just told them.

Below is some information that might be helpful in this discussion.

****************************

What is Synovial Fluid?

Each synovial joint in the body is somewhat like its own organ, with needs and

nutritional requirements that differ from other areas of bone. Synovial fluid

performs certain mechanical functions, such as cushioning joints and making it

easy for bones and cartilage to move past each other. It also has the job of

bringing oxygen and other nutrients to the cartilage and other areas of the

joint. In addition to providing nutrients, it also removes carbon dioxide and

other waste products from the cartilage, and takes these back into the

bloodstream to be removed from the body.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-synovial-fluid.htm

*****************************

Here is one Good reason to exercise your body to stimulate the lymphatic system.

Lymph is formed in tissues spaces all over the body and the fluids oozes into

the lymph system and gets pumped or pushed by normal body and muscle movement to

the lymph nodes. People who regularly exercise are less likely to get sick. This

system is very similar to the sewage and water system where you live. The water

is actively pressurized and the sewage itself has a more passive action. It

flows by mere gravity.

http://www.drstandley.com/bodysystems_lymphatic.shtml

**********************************

How does the lymphatic pump work in the lymphatic system?

[improve]

There are no lymphatic pumps as such but the combination of valves in

lymph vessel and the compressive action of skeletal muscles (especially in the

legs)

vectors lymph flow centrally to the thoracic duct and others.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_lymphatic_pump_works_in_the_lymphatic_sys\

tem

******************************

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: Ed D <ed_davis2@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 10:34:07 AM

Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

joints

I have read the posts in this thread.

I do not see any attacks, simply questions.

And I have the same questions.

If jumping on a trampoline truly helps, I want to know. And what is different

about jumping on a trampoline, jumping rope, or simply jogging. They all seem

to bounce one a good bit.

By the way, I have achy joints, and I have tried jumping on a trampoline (just a

couple inches high, for 1 minute duration, every day for a week) and all it did

was make my knees hurt :-)

Finally, you must admit that " Detoxify JOINTS " usually does go along with

someone selling snake oil.

Ed

Atlanta

Georgia

USA

>

> ,

>

> It seems to me your last several posts have been increasingly antagonistic

>towards others on the website. You say trampoline is too difficult coordination

>wise, but instead you offer up jump roping which just as complicated from a

>motor control standpoint. The fact remains, joints get a lot of their

>circulation of nutrients and elimination of waste materials from the mechanical

>pressure of movement which causes greater circulation of the lymphatic system

>and synovial fluids. It is as much your responsibility to propose why it is not

>necessary as it is for him to prove it's correct.

>

> Garrison

> Mesa, Arizona

>

> Supertraining

> From: deadliftdiva@...

> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:47:03 +0000

> Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

>joints

>

> ok...what's with the trampoline all the time? " lymphatic pump " from

>this??

>

>

>

> I and a few others I can think of readily do not jump on trampolines because

we

>are patently clumsy and your plan would put me in rehab, not improve my health!

>

>

>

> You would get the same result from jumping rope...and what's this bs about

> " detoxify joints " etc???

>

>

>

> Detoxify JOINTS???

>

>

>

> At this point, I am invoking Mel's " Question All Gurus " and asking for a

>complete explanation and other members to try to enlighten me as to why this is

>possible or necessary!

>

>

> ============================

>

[Guest guest]

Excellent reply Ralph!

It would seem logically that the higher the frequency of the exercise, the

higher the fluid transportation is. I can contribute with two studies I know

of, that measured blood flow for exercise conducted with WBV (whole body

vibration).

1. Lohman EB, Petrofsky JS, Maloney-Hinds C, Betts-Schwab H, Thorpe D. The

effect of whole body vibration on lower extremity skin blood flow in normal

subjects. Med. Sci. Monit. 2007;13(2):CR71-76.

2. Kerschan-Schindl K, Grampp S, Henk C, et al. Whole-body vibration

exercise leads to alterations in muscle blood volume. Clin Physiol.

2001;21(3):377-382.

I don't bother posting the abstracts, but a bibliographical collection of

similar articles and abstracts can be found at

http://www.globussht.com/wbv-abstracts

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> The lymphatic system as well as the venous system depends on muscle

> contraction

> to return lymphatic fluid, in the case of the lymph system, or blood, in

> the

> case of the blood system, back to the heart for redistribution.

>

> Any form of activity that contracts muscles will serve this purpose. Even

> minimal activity such as walking the dog is sufficient to keep both

> lymphatic

> and venous system.

>

> We could debate all day which activity is better and unless one could

> present

> clear cut scientific evidence such as flow studies to compare various

> activities

> we will never know which activity is the best. It probably does not matter

> which is best in the absolute sense but what is best for the individual.

>

> Based on my personal experience of studying human anatomy, physiology and

> pathology for the past 50 years I cannot tell you whether jumping on a

> trampoline or riding a bike is better.

>

> In my opinion the best activity is the one that you will perform willingly

> and

> regularly. Lifting weights, riding bikes, running, swimming etc are all

> activities that will help pump lymph and venous blood and keep us healthy.

>

> The same can be said of synovial fluid although it never leaves the

> confines of

> the synovial sack or membrane. The transport of nutrients and removal of

> waste

> products in the synovium is more of passive and gradient dependent

> activity.

>

> As for the questioning another individuals assertions on this forum, ever

> since I have been participating in this forum questioning assertions has

> been

> the norm. The only way we can learn is to question the validity of a

> statment

> when it does not fit with what we have learned in the past. The most

> important

> question in learning is : WHY? When we stop asking why we stop learning.

> " Because I said so " is never a good answer whether it be to our children,

> when

> they ask us why for the umpteenth time, or our collegues who do not

> understand

> what we just told them.

>

> Below is some information that might be helpful in this discussion.

>

> ****************************

> What is Synovial Fluid?

> Each synovial joint in the body is somewhat like its own organ, with needs

> and

> nutritional requirements that differ from other areas of bone. Synovial

> fluid

> performs certain mechanical functions, such as cushioning joints and making

> it

> easy for bones and cartilage to move past each other. It also has the job

> of

> bringing oxygen and other nutrients to the cartilage and other areas of the

>

> joint. In addition to providing nutrients, it also removes carbon dioxide

> and

> other waste products from the cartilage, and takes these back into the

> bloodstream to be removed from the body.

> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-synovial-fluid.htm

> *****************************

> Here is one Good reason to exercise your body to stimulate the lymphatic

> system.

> Lymph is formed in tissues spaces all over the body and the fluids oozes

> into

> the lymph system and gets pumped or pushed by normal body and muscle

> movement to

> the lymph nodes. People who regularly exercise are less likely to get sick.

> This

> system is very similar to the sewage and water system where you live. The

> water

> is actively pressurized and the sewage itself has a more passive action. It

>

> flows by mere gravity.

>

> http://www.drstandley.com/bodysystems_lymphatic.shtml

> **********************************

>

> How does the lymphatic pump work in the lymphatic system?

> [improve]

> There are no lymphatic pumps as such but the combination of valves in

> lymph vessel and the compressive action of skeletal muscles (especially in

> the

> legs)

>

> vectors lymph flow centrally to the thoracic duct and others.

>

>

>

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_lymphatic_pump_works_in_the_lymphatic_sys\

tem

>

> ******************************

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

> ________________________________

> From: Ed D <ed_davis2@... <ed_davis2%40>>

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 10:34:07 AM

> Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

>

> joints

>

> I have read the posts in this thread.

>

> I do not see any attacks, simply questions.

>

> And I have the same questions.

>

> If jumping on a trampoline truly helps, I want to know. And what is

> different

> about jumping on a trampoline, jumping rope, or simply jogging. They all

> seem

> to bounce one a good bit.

>

> By the way, I have achy joints, and I have tried jumping on a trampoline

> (just a

> couple inches high, for 1 minute duration, every day for a week) and all it

> did

> was make my knees hurt :-)

>

> Finally, you must admit that " Detoxify JOINTS " usually does go along with

> someone selling snake oil.

>

> Ed

> Atlanta

> Georgia

> USA

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > It seems to me your last several posts have been increasingly

> antagonistic

> >towards others on the website. You say trampoline is too difficult

> coordination

> >wise, but instead you offer up jump roping which just as complicated from

> a

> >motor control standpoint. The fact remains, joints get a lot of their

> >circulation of nutrients and elimination of waste materials from the

> mechanical

> >pressure of movement which causes greater circulation of the lymphatic

> system

> >and synovial fluids. It is as much your responsibility to propose why it

> is not

> >necessary as it is for him to prove it's correct.

> >

> > Garrison

> > Mesa, Arizona

> >

> > Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> > From: deadliftdiva@...

> > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:47:03 +0000

> > Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues

> and

> >joints

> >

> > ok...what's with the trampoline all the time? " lymphatic pump " from

> >this??

> >

> >

> >

> > I and a few others I can think of readily do not jump on trampolines

> because we

> >are patently clumsy and your plan would put me in rehab, not improve my

> health!

> >

> >

> >

> > You would get the same result from jumping rope...and what's this bs

> about

> > " detoxify joints " etc???

> >

> >

> >

> > Detoxify JOINTS???

> >

> >

> >

> > At this point, I am invoking Mel's " Question All Gurus " and asking for a

> >complete explanation and other members to try to enlighten me as to why

> this is

> >possible or necessary!

> >

> >

> > ============================

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the explanation about the pump action - that just leaves now the

rest of the question about the " detoxify " comments/claims for removal of such

things as pcb's, artificial sweeteners, and the vaunted burnt toast...sigh.

My understanding of pcb's was that they are not removable from your body if they

are present? hence the attempts to avoid such things outright?

I'm also not sure how the artificial sweeteners would get into the joints or the

burnt toast - except by the body's circulation? if you have a problem with them

in other parts of your body, why would you focus on " detoxifying joints "

specifically and not seek to well, " detoxify " overall?

There was an excellent posting a couple of months ago here also regarding the

whole " detoxifying " thing - would that not be reasonably extended to joints? I

mean...if the body doesn't need us to " detoxify " it otherwise specially by

external means, but handles the removal of waste without our general concern or

intervention, why would joints be a special case?

I hope that makes my questions a bit more clear as to the remainder, and thank

you for the general reminder about the lymphatic action of the body.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

>joints

>

> ok...what's with the trampoline all the time? " lymphatic pump " from

>this??

>

>

>

> I and a few others I can think of readily do not jump on trampolines because

we

>are patently clumsy and your plan would put me in rehab, not improve my health!

>

>

>

> You would get the same result from jumping rope...and what's this bs about

> " detoxify joints " etc???

>

>

>

> Detoxify JOINTS???

>

>

>

> At this point, I am invoking Mel's " Question All Gurus " and asking for a

>complete explanation and other members to try to enlighten me as to why this is

>possible or necessary!

>

>

> ============================

>

[Guest guest]

That make plenty of sense but then again the higher the frequency the greater

the flow of blood to the muscles and the greater the need to remove venous blood

as well as lymph.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Sat, September 25, 2010 9:01:10 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

joints

Excellent reply Ralph!

It would seem logically that the higher the frequency of the exercise, the

higher the fluid transportation is. I can contribute with two studies I know

of, that measured blood flow for exercise conducted with WBV (whole body

vibration).

1. Lohman EB, Petrofsky JS, Maloney-Hinds C, Betts-Schwab H, Thorpe D. The

effect of whole body vibration on lower extremity skin blood flow in normal

subjects. Med. Sci. Monit. 2007;13(2):CR71-76.

2. Kerschan-Schindl K, Grampp S, Henk C, et al. Whole-body vibration

exercise leads to alterations in muscle blood volume. Clin Physiol.

2001;21(3):377-382.

I don't bother posting the abstracts, but a bibliographical collection of

similar articles and abstracts can be found at

http://www.globussht.com/wbv-abstracts

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> The lymphatic system as well as the venous system depends on muscle

> contraction

> to return lymphatic fluid, in the case of the lymph system, or blood, in

> the

> case of the blood system, back to the heart for redistribution.

>

> Any form of activity that contracts muscles will serve this purpose. Even

> minimal activity such as walking the dog is sufficient to keep both

> lymphatic

> and venous system.

>

> We could debate all day which activity is better and unless one could

> present

> clear cut scientific evidence such as flow studies to compare various

> activities

> we will never know which activity is the best. It probably does not matter

> which is best in the absolute sense but what is best for the individual.

>

> Based on my personal experience of studying human anatomy, physiology and

> pathology for the past 50 years I cannot tell you whether jumping on a

> trampoline or riding a bike is better.

>

> In my opinion the best activity is the one that you will perform willingly

> and

> regularly. Lifting weights, riding bikes, running, swimming etc are all

> activities that will help pump lymph and venous blood and keep us healthy.

>

> The same can be said of synovial fluid although it never leaves the

> confines of

> the synovial sack or membrane. The transport of nutrients and removal of

> waste

> products in the synovium is more of passive and gradient dependent

> activity.

>

> As for the questioning another individuals assertions on this forum, ever

> since I have been participating in this forum questioning assertions has

> been

> the norm. The only way we can learn is to question the validity of a

> statment

> when it does not fit with what we have learned in the past. The most

> important

> question in learning is : WHY? When we stop asking why we stop learning.

> " Because I said so " is never a good answer whether it be to our children,

> when

> they ask us why for the umpteenth time, or our collegues who do not

> understand

> what we just told them.

>

> Below is some information that might be helpful in this discussion.

>

> ****************************

> What is Synovial Fluid?

> Each synovial joint in the body is somewhat like its own organ, with needs

> and

> nutritional requirements that differ from other areas of bone. Synovial

> fluid

> performs certain mechanical functions, such as cushioning joints and making

> it

> easy for bones and cartilage to move past each other. It also has the job

> of

> bringing oxygen and other nutrients to the cartilage and other areas of the

>

> joint. In addition to providing nutrients, it also removes carbon dioxide

> and

> other waste products from the cartilage, and takes these back into the

> bloodstream to be removed from the body.

> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-synovial-fluid.htm

> *****************************

> Here is one Good reason to exercise your body to stimulate the lymphatic

> system.

> Lymph is formed in tissues spaces all over the body and the fluids oozes

> into

> the lymph system and gets pumped or pushed by normal body and muscle

> movement to

> the lymph nodes. People who regularly exercise are less likely to get sick.

> This

> system is very similar to the sewage and water system where you live. The

> water

> is actively pressurized and the sewage itself has a more passive action. It

>

> flows by mere gravity.

>

> http://www.drstandley.com/bodysystems_lymphatic.shtml

> **********************************

>

> How does the lymphatic pump work in the lymphatic system?

> [improve]

> There are no lymphatic pumps as such but the combination of valves in

> lymph vessel and the compressive action of skeletal muscles (especially in

> the

> legs)

>

> vectors lymph flow centrally to the thoracic duct and others.

>

>

>http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_lymphatic_pump_works_in_the_lymphatic_sy\

stem

>m

>

> ******************************

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct. USA

>

> ________________________________

> From: Ed D <ed_davis2@... <ed_davis2%40>>

> Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 10:34:07 AM

> Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

>

> joints

>

> I have read the posts in this thread.

>

> I do not see any attacks, simply questions.

>

> And I have the same questions.

>

> If jumping on a trampoline truly helps, I want to know. And what is

> different

> about jumping on a trampoline, jumping rope, or simply jogging. They all

> seem

> to bounce one a good bit.

>

> By the way, I have achy joints, and I have tried jumping on a trampoline

> (just a

> couple inches high, for 1 minute duration, every day for a week) and all it

> did

> was make my knees hurt :-)

>

> Finally, you must admit that " Detoxify JOINTS " usually does go along with

> someone selling snake oil.

>

> Ed

> Atlanta

> Georgia

> USA

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > It seems to me your last several posts have been increasingly

> antagonistic

> >towards others on the website. You say trampoline is too difficult

> coordination

> >wise, but instead you offer up jump roping which just as complicated from

> a

> >motor control standpoint. The fact remains, joints get a lot of their

> >circulation of nutrients and elimination of waste materials from the

> mechanical

> >pressure of movement which causes greater circulation of the lymphatic

> system

> >and synovial fluids. It is as much your responsibility to propose why it

> is not

> >necessary as it is for him to prove it's correct.

> >

> > Garrison

> > Mesa, Arizona

> >

> > Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> > From: deadliftdiva@...

> > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:47:03 +0000

> > Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues

> and

> >joints

> >

> > ok...what's with the trampoline all the time? " lymphatic pump " from

> >this??

> >

> >

> >

> > I and a few others I can think of readily do not jump on trampolines

> because we

> >are patently clumsy and your plan would put me in rehab, not improve my

> health!

> >

> >

> >

> > You would get the same result from jumping rope...and what's this bs

> about

> > " detoxify joints " etc???

> >

> >

> >

> > Detoxify JOINTS???

> >

> >

> >

> > At this point, I am invoking Mel's " Question All Gurus " and asking for a

> >complete explanation and other members to try to enlighten me as to why

> this is

> >possible or necessary!

> >

> >

> > ============================

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you again, Dr. Ralph.

Any type of exercise or for that matter, work, or even active rest of tapping

one's finger on a table would evoke a similar response to that of something more

aggressive, and it would be working both the lymphatic and the blood circulatory

systems. So it's not some special exercise, but any movement which would do

this.

These systems obviously do not halt if we are lying down asleep either...or in a

coma. The work of the body in " detoxifying " itself without our knowing

intervention moves on as long as we live!

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues

> and

> >joints

> >

> > ok...what's with the trampoline all the time? " lymphatic pump " from

> >this??

> >

> >

> >

> > I and a few others I can think of readily do not jump on trampolines

> because we

> >are patently clumsy and your plan would put me in rehab, not improve my

> health!

> >

> >

> >

> > You would get the same result from jumping rope...and what's this bs

> about

> > " detoxify joints " etc???

> >

> >

> >

> > Detoxify JOINTS???

> >

> >

> >

> > At this point, I am invoking Mel's " Question All Gurus " and asking for a

> >complete explanation and other members to try to enlighten me as to why

> this is

> >possible or necessary!

> >

> >

> > ============================

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm all for questioning peoples claims and I believe it is right and necessary

for growth. My only point was that, from my point of view, 's response

seemed to state opinion and seemed to attack the others stand as either outright

false, or just plain silly and claimed that activities like trampoline are

ineffective or dangerous as a blanket statement, and then demanded proof of the

OP's claims without providing any data of her own to help contribute to the

discussion. I strongly believe in peer reviewed and evidence practice, I was

merely suggesting that the most constructive way to expand knowledge on this

site, and what keeps this discussion forum " above the fray " is the fact we

politely disagree or question, but do so more from a point of research based

example rather than possible speculation. I think the original poster was merely

asking questions as he went along and suggesting things that made sense to him

as a logical way of helping maintain synovial joint health. is one of our

better and more prolific posters on here and I just enjoy seeing good arguments

based on evidence based practice not conjecture.

Garrison

Mesa, Arizona

Supertraining

From: deadliftdiva@...

Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:49:55 +0000

Subject: Re: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

joints

Thank you for the explanation about the pump action - that just leaves now

the rest of the question about the " detoxify " comments/claims for removal of

such things as pcb's, artificial sweeteners, and the vaunted burnt toast...sigh.

My understanding of pcb's was that they are not removable from your body if they

are present? hence the attempts to avoid such things outright?

I'm also not sure how the artificial sweeteners would get into the joints or the

burnt toast - except by the body's circulation? if you have a problem with them

in other parts of your body, why would you focus on " detoxifying joints "

specifically and not seek to well, " detoxify " overall?

There was an excellent posting a couple of months ago here also regarding the

whole " detoxifying " thing - would that not be reasonably extended to joints? I

mean...if the body doesn't need us to " detoxify " it otherwise specially by

external means, but handles the removal of waste without our general concern or

intervention, why would joints be a special case?

I hope that makes my questions a bit more clear as to the remainder, and thank

you for the general reminder about the lymphatic action of the body.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

>joints

>

> ok...what's with the trampoline all the time? " lymphatic pump " from

>this??

>

>

>

> I and a few others I can think of readily do not jump on trampolines because

we

>are patently clumsy and your plan would put me in rehab, not improve my health!

>

>

>

> You would get the same result from jumping rope...and what's this bs about

> " detoxify joints " etc???

>

>

>

> Detoxify JOINTS???

>

>

>

> At this point, I am invoking Mel's " Question All Gurus " and asking for a

>complete explanation and other members to try to enlighten me as to why this is

>possible or necessary!

>

>

> ============================

>

[Guest guest]

When I first joined this forum, many moons ago, everything was challenged

unless it back by some form of credible proof. One of the reasons I have

continued to read and post over the years is because of the serious search of

honest answers. I try not to post unless I am reasonably certain that I can

back up my statements. I have been challenged many times and have never felt

slighted or offended by those who question the validity of what I post. In fact

I have learned a great deal myself because I often have to go back and check my

facts. At times I have been humbled when I realized that what I had posted was

not entirel correct or actually incorrect.

As an example: the issue of testing positive by eating a poppy seed bagel.. I

had discussed this issue several years ago with a toxicologist because a patient

claimed he tested positive because he ate poppy seed bagel or bun. My first

reaction was to send off a post simply stating that Vitaly's statement was not

true. Moments after posting that I did some research and found that in the

early 90s people did test positive just by eating a few bagels and some even

lost their jobs. This was challenged and as a result new standards were set for

what is considered a positive test so as to avoid the situation where an

individual would lose his/her job simply because they ate a bagel before the

test.

Over the past several years there have been more posts in which statements have

been made which had no basis in science and unfortunately where never

challenged.

As stated by McLean if an individual cannot take questioning of the

statements then they should avoid posting. We should never stop questioning

statements we do not understand or agree with. When we stop asking questions we

stop learning.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: andrewmclean66 <andrewmclean66@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 8:41:14 AM

Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

joints

Giovanni

It should be noted that until Lynda asked there were no research papers cited.

As far as people just reading the abstract it is also helpful if entire articles

can be posted or linked. Science works on a system of disproving hypotheses

therefore it is healthy to be sceptical at times. My previous post regarding the

burden of proof is again relevant here.

I would also add that if people are not prepared to argue their point (and have

people disagree) then this is probably the wrong forum for them. One of the

problems with this medium is that tone is hard to assess. People tend to take

things very personally.

Several questions have been asked by Lynda and myself in an attempt to

understand the meaning and origin of several statements. So far very few have

been answered. Thus I personally will remain sceptical.

Mclean

Edinburgh, Scotland, UK.

>

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > The burden of proof goes both ways. It's easy for her to simply refute what

> > others say (sometimes in a way that seems attacking) without providing any

> > proof of her to back it up. It's easy for Lynda to berate his post as absurd

> > and then offer no proof to refute his claims. If she or you wish for proof

> > here you go " Loading of the tissue due to use of the joint creates

> > mechanical,

> > electrical, and physicochemical signals that help to direct the

> > synthetic and degradative activity of chondrocytes. " from Buckwalter

> > JA, Mankin

> > HJ.Articular cartilage: tissue design and

> > chondrocyte-matrix interactions.Instr Course Lect.

> > 1998;47:477-86. Before people on here attack others, i think it's wise to

> > have evidence to the contrary.

> >

> > Garrison

> > Mesa, Arizona

> >

> > Supertraining <Supertraining%40>

> > From: andrewmclean66@... <andrewmclean66%40>

> > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:43:18 +0000

> > Subject: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

> > joints

> >

> >

> > Hi Philip

> >

> > I think 's point is basically that there are a lot of bold statements

> > being bandied around that seem to have little or no scientific support (that

> > has been quoted - if it exists please reference)

> >

> > In your last post you stated:

> >

> > " The fact remains, joints get a lot of their circulation of nutrients and

> > elimination of waste materials from the mechanical pressure of movement

> > which causes greater circulation of the lymphatic system

> >

> > and synovial fluids "

> >

> > If this is fact (and I'm not saying that it isn't) then please provide us

> > with some scientifically rigorous studies that support it. Also if you or

> > other posters are proposing the use a trampoline what is the difference

> > between jumping and walking or for that matter most any type of exercise? As

> > you say mechanical pressure causes greater circulation.

> >

> > As far as being antagonistic I for one welcome this. Don't be afraid

> > of people disputing or arguing with you... it is what this forum is for -

> > debate and counter argument. If you just want people to agree with you and

> > take what you say without question then there are no end of online gurus

> > that you can go to.

> >

> > =========================

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Even less expensive and by the way you have written MORE effective, jump up and

down on the solid ground... c'mon folks. <shaking head> Your trampoline has less

impact and less compression and by your own argument, less effect than jumping

up and down without the trampoline.

Jumping up and down is less expensive too. Buy a jump rope if you need to

justify the movement.

The true G force would be most highly attained by jumping a rope..more than a

trampoline. It could even be argued that running would be more effective for

shaking one's innards - less cushion against the desired G force? lol.

I'm not in agreement with any of this by the way, I don't use vibration training

and I believe it to be yet another fad - let those who believe make the

investment. One advantage of a vibration platform over the trampoline though

would be just enough stability to perform exercise on it...weight bearing that

is.

I don't see the advantage of training one's innards without loading one's

skeleton, I think you get more response from a regular back squat with weight,

without any fancy trampolines or vibration platforms, than you do from an

unloaded move hopping up and down on a springy trampoline. If training yourself

with gravity is the motivation, wouldn't that be so?

To each their own they say. Clearly some are hell bent on trampolines, perhaps

there will be more room in the squat racks for the rest of us..

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues and

joints

Giovanni

Right

A vibration machine would be great .

I still remember the belt one , that went around the seat part on a pedestal, we

used to use .

But with an expenditure of 1000 to 5000 for a vib-machine-platform , a

trampoline is less expensive 30 to 350 max.

The calories spent are much higher, eco friendly, do not use " Power " .

Then you have the true G force activating your innards up and down strengthening

the connections inside your body.

Vitally Alcher

Toronto Canada

> >

> > , could you please expand upon this statement in regards to the

> > training

> > of the joints, not so much in terms of exercises, but in terms of loading

> > parameters.

> >

> > Casler WRITES:

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > Loading parameters would be based on the desired condition/adaptation and

> > present condition just like loading the musculature.

> >

> > My point was that joints, ligaments, and bones are also tissues that have a

> > stimulus adaptation cycle. Seldom do we see much focus on them. I think

> > my

> > acknowledgment and concern stems from training as I get into my 60's. At

> > my

> > age skeletal and joint concerns become more important.

> >

> > Bones, and connective tissue have low to no blood supply and their growth,

> > and recovery are slower than the muscle tissues. I read recently that

> > cartilaginous tissues seem to receive at least some of their nutrients from

> > synovial. That is, as a joint receives load forces and the cartilage is

> > compressed from that load, it reduces hydration. This is a well known

> > situation with spinal discs. The decompression cycle then helps rehydrate

> > and draw in a small amount of nutritive elements to that tissue.

> >

> > So the task is to find the correct loading to the cycles of compression and

> > decompression (and other stress types) that will produce a conditioning

> > effect to those tissues without " overtraining " . It is as simple as

> > training

> > the musculature, but also complex, due to the fact that you are dealing

> > with

> > two critical variables:

> >

> > 1)Present Condition and the level of load that will be required to produce

> > positive adaptation

> >

> > 2)Age and the amount of recovery required between loading bouts.

> >

> > Obviously this is significantly different than training the muscles even

> > though we use essentially the SAME exercise actions.

> >

> > As well we generally have 3 main tissues to be aware of:

> >

> > 1)Bones which need general heavy load stresses to gain or retain

> > mineralization

> >

> > 2)Ligaments which require regular stresses to reduce age related stiffness

> >

> > 3) Cartilages which require appropriate cyclic compression and

> > decompression

> > to facilitate synovium saturations and hydrations

> >

> > I am simply recognizing the need to consider these elements to various

> > goals. To be sure when we are young athletes, much of this is accommodated

> > via general heavy training. When we are in some sports that take a toll on

> > joints and connective tissues it might be wise to keep these elements in

> > mind. Also as we age, training adjustments that consider using actions

> > that

> > facilitate synovium distribution might improve the adaptation overall.

> >

> > To be sure there are other considerations in training that can both

> > strengthen and spare the joints and connective tissues from injury and

> > overtraining. However, to my way of thinking, many of the injuries we have

> > in sports and training relate to either muscles, or joints. We surely are

> > cognizant of muscle training as a priority, but seldom to we equally

> > examine

> > the biomechanical and physiological specifics of the stresses placed on

> > joints except as a reactive therapy.

> >

> > If we trained athletes and ourselves with the joints and skeleton receiving

> > equal priority as muscular strength conditioning I feel the result would be

> > less injuries and a higher level of conditioning overall.

> >

> > I recall in High School I had a coach who had all of us walk at least one

> > lap around the gym floor on the outside of our feet and ankles. In the

> > beginning this was a little difficult, but after a short time it was quite

> > easy. This exercise was NOT actually to train specific muscles but more

> > focused on strengthening the ankle joint to reduce lateral ankle sprains.

> > And it seemed to work as not one of my teammates suffered from such an

> > injury the whole season. This is an example of training a joint to a

> > condition that facilitates a sport.

> >

> > For years I have developed and employed a system of training I use with

> > Senior Citizens where I can present rather serious LOADS to their Skeletons

> > with minimal risk. These are loads that they never would achieve any other

> > way, with the goal being to prevent osteoporosis by creating significant

> > skeletal loading safely and progressively. That, and my personal interest

> > in HEAVY training as I age led me to these considerations. With the goal

> > of

> > physical and functional longevity, it was/is important to consider that

> > HIGH

> > STRESS loadings tend to lead to joint problems IF not managed in a way that

> > makes then produce productive adaptations as opposed to the opposite.

> >

> > So that is what I was alluding to.

> > ================================

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:

> >

> > mygroups

> >

> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

> > wish them to be published!

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Vitally,

Perhaps you haven't researched the subject. A vibration platform acts in a

completely different way from a belt machine. Besides a vibration platform

generates on average 900 contractions in 30 seconds. Therefore the effect is

completely different.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 10:28 PM, astroalcher <alcher@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Giovanni

> Right

> A vibration machine would be great .

> I still remember the belt one , that went around the seat part on a

> pedestal, we used to use .

> But with an expenditure of 1000 to 5000 for a vib-machine-platform , a

> trampoline is less expensive 30 to 350 max.

> The calories spent are much higher, eco friendly, do not use " Power " .

> Then you have the true G force activating your innards up and down

> strengthening the connections inside your body.

> Vitally Alcher

> Toronto Canada

>

>

>

> > >

> > > , could you please expand upon this statement in regards to the

> > > training

> > > of the joints, not so much in terms of exercises, but in terms of

> loading

> > > parameters.

> > >

> > > Casler WRITES:

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > Loading parameters would be based on the desired condition/adaptation

> and

> > > present condition just like loading the musculature.

> > >

> > > My point was that joints, ligaments, and bones are also tissues that

> have a

> > > stimulus adaptation cycle. Seldom do we see much focus on them. I think

> > > my

> > > acknowledgment and concern stems from training as I get into my 60's.

> At

> > > my

> > > age skeletal and joint concerns become more important.

> > >

> > > Bones, and connective tissue have low to no blood supply and their

> growth,

> > > and recovery are slower than the muscle tissues. I read recently that

> > > cartilaginous tissues seem to receive at least some of their nutrients

> from

> > > synovial. That is, as a joint receives load forces and the cartilage is

> > > compressed from that load, it reduces hydration. This is a well known

> > > situation with spinal discs. The decompression cycle then helps

> rehydrate

> > > and draw in a small amount of nutritive elements to that tissue.

> > >

> > > So the task is to find the correct loading to the cycles of compression

> and

> > > decompression (and other stress types) that will produce a conditioning

> > > effect to those tissues without " overtraining " . It is as simple as

> > > training

> > > the musculature, but also complex, due to the fact that you are dealing

> > > with

> > > two critical variables:

> > >

> > > 1)Present Condition and the level of load that will be required to

> produce

> > > positive adaptation

> > >

> > > 2)Age and the amount of recovery required between loading bouts.

> > >

> > > Obviously this is significantly different than training the muscles

> even

> > > though we use essentially the SAME exercise actions.

> > >

> > > As well we generally have 3 main tissues to be aware of:

> > >

> > > 1)Bones which need general heavy load stresses to gain or retain

> > > mineralization

> > >

> > > 2)Ligaments which require regular stresses to reduce age related

> stiffness

> > >

> > > 3) Cartilages which require appropriate cyclic compression and

> > > decompression

> > > to facilitate synovium saturations and hydrations

> > >

> > > I am simply recognizing the need to consider these elements to various

> > > goals. To be sure when we are young athletes, much of this is

> accommodated

> > > via general heavy training. When we are in some sports that take a toll

> on

> > > joints and connective tissues it might be wise to keep these elements

> in

> > > mind. Also as we age, training adjustments that consider using actions

> > > that

> > > facilitate synovium distribution might improve the adaptation overall.

> > >

> > > To be sure there are other considerations in training that can both

> > > strengthen and spare the joints and connective tissues from injury and

> > > overtraining. However, to my way of thinking, many of the injuries we

> have

> > > in sports and training relate to either muscles, or joints. We surely

> are

> > > cognizant of muscle training as a priority, but seldom to we equally

> > > examine

> > > the biomechanical and physiological specifics of the stresses placed on

> > > joints except as a reactive therapy.

> > >

> > > If we trained athletes and ourselves with the joints and skeleton

> receiving

> > > equal priority as muscular strength conditioning I feel the result

> would be

> > > less injuries and a higher level of conditioning overall.

> > >

> > > I recall in High School I had a coach who had all of us walk at least

> one

> > > lap around the gym floor on the outside of our feet and ankles. In the

> > > beginning this was a little difficult, but after a short time it was

> quite

> > > easy. This exercise was NOT actually to train specific muscles but more

> > > focused on strengthening the ankle joint to reduce lateral ankle

> sprains.

> > > And it seemed to work as not one of my teammates suffered from such an

> > > injury the whole season. This is an example of training a joint to a

> > > condition that facilitates a sport.

> > >

> > > For years I have developed and employed a system of training I use with

> > > Senior Citizens where I can present rather serious LOADS to their

> Skeletons

> > > with minimal risk. These are loads that they never would achieve any

> other

> > > way, with the goal being to prevent osteoporosis by creating

> significant

> > > skeletal loading safely and progressively. That, and my personal

> interest

> > > in HEAVY training as I age led me to these considerations. With the

> goal

> > > of

> > > physical and functional longevity, it was/is important to consider that

> > > HIGH

> > > STRESS loadings tend to lead to joint problems IF not managed in a way

> that

> > > makes then produce productive adaptations as opposed to the opposite.

> > >

> > > So that is what I was alluding to.

> > > ================================

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > > Modify/cancel your subscription at:

> > >

> > > mygroups

> > >

> > > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

> > > wish them to be published!

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Vitally,

Whole Body Vibration is based on the involuntary stretch reflex, which

according to research takes place above a certain frequency. That is it is

effectively between 20 Hz and 40 Hz; so your question whether it would work

at 90 times per minute, i.e. 1.5 Hz is definitely out of the range. As far

as circulation benefits please read the following (and you can find the

abstracts here: http://www.globussht.com/wbv-abstracts).

1. Maikala R, King S, Bhambhani Y. Acute physiological responses in healthy

men during whole-body vibration. International Archives of Occupational and

Environmental Health. 2006;79(2):103-114.

2. Maikala RV, King S, Bhambhani YN. Cerebral oxygenation and blood volume

responses to seated whole-body vibration. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol.

2005;95(5-6):447-453.

3. Lohman EB, Petrofsky JS, Maloney-Hinds C, Betts-Schwab H, Thorpe D. The

effect of whole body vibration on lower extremity skin blood flow in normal

subjects. Med. Sci. Monit. 2007;13(2):CR71-76.

4. Kerschan-Schindl K, Grampp S, Henk C, et al. Whole-body vibration

exercise leads to alterations in muscle blood volume. Clin Physiol.

2001;21(3):377-382.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Vitally <alcher@...> wrote:

> Giovanni

> I think it is a great machine , don't take me wrong , I would use it in an

> instant.

> That will make a tremendous Lymphatic Pump Action.

> Can I adjust the machine to 90 contractions a minute ?

> That would be more beneficial as to the closing and opening of the one way

> valves in the lymphatic system and nodes to move fluid.

> The shaking is a bit to rapid for the muscles to contract and relax, but

> there is an Isotonic effect as you get all tense to the stimuli.

>

> Vitally Toronto

>

> * Re: Re: Training your skeleton, connective

> tissues and joints

>

> Vitally,

> Perhaps you haven't researched the subject. A vibration platform acts in a

> completely different way from a belt machine. Besides a vibration platform

> generates on average 900 contractions in 30 seconds. Therefore the effect

> is

> completely different.

>

> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

>

> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 10:28 PM, astroalcher <alcher@...> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> > Giovanni

> > Right

> > A vibration machine would be great .

> > I still remember the belt one , that went around the seat part on a

> > pedestal, we used to use .

> > But with an expenditure of 1000 to 5000 for a vib-machine-platform , a

> > trampoline is less expensive 30 to 350 max.

> > The calories spent are much higher, eco friendly, do not use " Power " .

> > Then you have the true G force activating your innards up and down

> > strengthening the connections inside your body.

> > Vitally Alcher

> > Toronto Canada

> >

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > , could you please expand upon this statement in regards to the

> > > > training

> > > > of the joints, not so much in terms of exercises, but in terms of

> > loading

> > > > parameters.

> > > >

> > > > Casler WRITES:

> > > >

> > > > Hi ,

> > > >

> > > > Loading parameters would be based on the desired condition/adaptation

> > and

> > > > present condition just like loading the musculature.

> > > >

> > > > My point was that joints, ligaments, and bones are also tissues that

> > have a

> > > > stimulus adaptation cycle. Seldom do we see much focus on them. I

> think

> > > > my

> > > > acknowledgment and concern stems from training as I get into my 60's.

> > At

> > > > my

> > > > age skeletal and joint concerns become more important.

> > > >

> > > > Bones, and connective tissue have low to no blood supply and their

> > growth,

> > > > and recovery are slower than the muscle tissues. I read recently that

> > > > cartilaginous tissues seem to receive at least some of their

> nutrients

> > from

> > > > synovial. That is, as a joint receives load forces and the cartilage

> is

> > > > compressed from that load, it reduces hydration. This is a well known

> > > > situation with spinal discs. The decompression cycle then helps

> > rehydrate

> > > > and draw in a small amount of nutritive elements to that tissue.

> > > >

> > > > So the task is to find the correct loading to the cycles of

> compression

> > and

> > > > decompression (and other stress types) that will produce a

> conditioning

> > > > effect to those tissues without " overtraining " . It is as simple as

> > > > training

> > > > the musculature, but also complex, due to the fact that you are

> dealing

> > > > with

> > > > two critical variables:

> > > >

> > > > 1)Present Condition and the level of load that will be required to

> > produce

> > > > positive adaptation

> > > >

> > > > 2)Age and the amount of recovery required between loading bouts.

> > > >

> > > > Obviously this is significantly different than training the muscles

> > even

> > > > though we use essentially the SAME exercise actions.

> > > >

> > > > As well we generally have 3 main tissues to be aware of:

> > > >

> > > > 1)Bones which need general heavy load stresses to gain or retain

> > > > mineralization

> > > >

> > > > 2)Ligaments which require regular stresses to reduce age related

> > stiffness

> > > >

> > > > 3) Cartilages which require appropriate cyclic compression and

> > > > decompression

> > > > to facilitate synovium saturations and hydrations

> > > >

> > > > I am simply recognizing the need to consider these elements to

> various

> > > > goals. To be sure when we are young athletes, much of this is

> > accommodated

> > > > via general heavy training. When we are in some sports that take a

> toll

> > on

> > > > joints and connective tissues it might be wise to keep these elements

> > in

> > > > mind. Also as we age, training adjustments that consider using

> actions

> > > > that

> > > > facilitate synovium distribution might improve the adaptation

> overall.

> > > >

> > > > To be sure there are other considerations in training that can both

> > > > strengthen and spare the joints and connective tissues from injury

> and

> > > > overtraining. However, to my way of thinking, many of the injuries we

> > have

> > > > in sports and training relate to either muscles, or joints. We surely

> > are

> > > > cognizant of muscle training as a priority, but seldom to we equally

> > > > examine

> > > > the biomechanical and physiological specifics of the stresses placed

> on

> > > > joints except as a reactive therapy.

> > > >

> > > > If we trained athletes and ourselves with the joints and skeleton

> > receiving

> > > > equal priority as muscular strength conditioning I feel the result

> > would be

> > > > less injuries and a higher level of conditioning overall.

> > > >

> > > > I recall in High School I had a coach who had all of us walk at least

> > one

> > > > lap around the gym floor on the outside of our feet and ankles. In

> the

> > > > beginning this was a little difficult, but after a short time it was

> > quite

> > > > easy. This exercise was NOT actually to train specific muscles but

> more

> > > > focused on strengthening the ankle joint to reduce lateral ankle

> > sprains.

> > > > And it seemed to work as not one of my teammates suffered from such

> an

> > > > injury the whole season. This is an example of training a joint to a

> > > > condition that facilitates a sport.

> > > >

> > > > For years I have developed and employed a system of training I use

> with

> > > > Senior Citizens where I can present rather serious LOADS to their

> > Skeletons

> > > > with minimal risk. These are loads that they never would achieve any

> > other

> > > > way, with the goal being to prevent osteoporosis by creating

> > significant

> > > > skeletal loading safely and progressively. That, and my personal

> > interest

> > > > in HEAVY training as I age led me to these considerations. With the

> > goal

> > > > of

> > > > physical and functional longevity, it was/is important to consider

> that

> > > > HIGH

> > > > STRESS loadings tend to lead to joint problems IF not managed in a

> way

> > that

> > > > makes then produce productive adaptations as opposed to the opposite.

> > > >

> > > > So that is what I was alluding to.

> > > > ================================

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Modify/cancel your subscription at:

> > > >

> > > > mygroups

> > > >

> > > > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

> > > > wish them to be published!

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Giovanni

What is the difference between strength training and power training in this

context ?

Does it or can it substitute for " Kegel Exercises "

Is there conclusive documentation ,, study for reversing bone density and

osteoporosis. ?

Will it benefit competing athletes and BB's. ?

Can I put the vibrating machine under a chair and let the patient sit on it to

stimulate the whole body?

That would be very beneficial , especially to the female octogenarians , the

geriatrics in general .

Is there a study for DNA and Telomere lengthening factors , ( Longevity ) . ?

Was there a study done on the meyelin sheath on the nerves , adverse or positive

?

I am glad that it helps stress urinary incontinence same way as a mini

trampoline exercise does (Kegels).

This is a big document ( a book ).

Thoracic Lumbar Facia strengthening is a factor too very pleased for that .

Full time Sailors on cruise ships or merchant cargo ships and the Navy Military

have better overall muscle density because of the vibrations of the vessel an

oscillating factor of the platform they are in.

Vitally Alcher

Toronto Canada

Re: Re: Training your skeleton, connective tissues

and joints

Vitally,

Whole Body Vibration is based on the involuntary stretch reflex, which

according to research takes place above a certain frequency. That is it is

effectively between 20 Hz and 40 Hz; so your question whether it would work

at 90 times per minute, i.e. 1.5 Hz is definitely out of the range. As far

as circulation benefits please read the following (and you can find the

abstracts here: http://www.globussht.com/wbv-abstracts).

1. Maikala R, King S, Bhambhani Y. Acute physiological responses in healthy

men during whole-body vibration. International Archives of Occupational and

Environmental Health. 2006;79(2):103-114.

2. Maikala RV, King S, Bhambhani YN. Cerebral oxygenation and blood volume

responses to seated whole-body vibration. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol.

2005;95(5-6):447-453.

3. Lohman EB, Petrofsky JS, Maloney-Hinds C, Betts-Schwab H, Thorpe D. The

effect of whole body vibration on lower extremity skin blood flow in normal

subjects. Med. Sci. Monit. 2007;13(2):CR71-76.

4. Kerschan-Schindl K, Grampp S, Henk C, et al. Whole-body vibration

exercise leads to alterations in muscle blood volume. Clin Physiol.

2001;21(3):377-382.

==================================

[Guest guest]

Vitally,

I haven't read anything in the context of Whole Body Vibration discussing

strength training and power training. I've seen this study though outside of

WBV: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/1/181

Stengel SV, Kemmler W, Pintag R, et al. Power training is more effective

than strength training for maintaining bone mineral density in

postmenopausal women. J Appl Physiol. 2005;99(1):181-188.

Sorry I do not know what Kegel Exercises are.

There are very encouraging studies on the reversal of bone density decrease

in the context of osteoporosis and ostepoenia. Dr. Clinton Rubin, a

researcher at SUNY, Stony Brook, NY, USA, has published very convincing

research, and has patented a machine.

1. Rubin CT, Sommerfeldt DW, Judex S, Qin Y. Inhibition of osteopenia by low

magnitude, high-frequency mechanical stimuli. Drug Discovery Today.

2001;6(16):848-858.

2. Rubin C, Judex S, Qin Y. Low-level mechanical signals and their potential

as a non-pharmacological intervention for osteoporosis. Age Ageing. 2006;35

Suppl 2:ii32-ii36.

I know form people working in medical settings that patients were put

sitting on a chair and performing WBV, for instance to reverse urinary

incontinence in women after giving birth. I have no idea about your other

questions. All I know is from from reading peer reviewed research articles.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Vitally <alcher@...> wrote:

> Giovanni

> What is the difference between strength training and power training in this

> context ?

>

> Does it or can it substitute for " Kegel Exercises "

>

> Is there conclusive documentation ,, study for reversing bone density and

> osteoporosis. ?

> Will it benefit competing athletes and BB's. ?

> Can I put the vibrating machine under a chair and let the patient sit on it

> to stimulate the whole body?

> That would be very beneficial , especially to the female octogenarians ,

> the geriatrics in general .

> Is there a study for DNA and Telomere lengthening factors , ( Longevity ) .

> ?

>

> Was there a study done on the meyelin sheath on the nerves , adverse or

> positive ?

>

> I am glad that it helps stress urinary incontinence same way as a mini

> trampoline exercise does (Kegels).

> This is a big document ( a book ).

> Thoracic Lumbar Facia strengthening is a factor too very pleased for that .

> Full time Sailors on cruise ships or merchant cargo ships and the Navy

> Military have better overall muscle density because of the vibrations of the

> vessel an oscillating factor of the platform they are in.

>

> Vitally Alcher

> Toronto Canada

>

>

> Re: Synthroid and Moderate Weight Training

> Thyroid issues: Oh wow... I've been thinking about posting my thyroid

> situation for awhile but have been too lazy (tired) -- so here goes. Most

> doctors are terrible with thyroid issues. Endos seem to be the worst. I

> have been going downhill healthwise for the past several years. Constantly

> sick, tired and getting progressively weaker despite trying to maintain

> minimal training. Last Feb my GP tested thyroid and found mine to be low,

> sent me to the endo. I didn't go and tried to ignore it. Fast forward to

> June -- sleeping most of my life away, too weak to run, barely able to swim

> and forcing myself to do elliptical every day plus very minimal strength

> training (that was making me more tired and weak). Finally went to the endo

> in Sept (was diagnosed as anemic and hypothyroid, and had lost 20 lbs over

> the past 4 years, not purposely). Got on Armour (a mix of T3 and T4 as

> opposed to synthroid which is only T4). Am now able to hobble 25 minutes

> on the treadmill every other day but still have weak legs. Getting better,

> but too slowly. However, my upper body strength feels fantastic. My

> swimming is recovering and I can feel the strength --- like wow -- like

> back in my youth. Don't know why the weight bearing activities are so

> hard, but guess it takes awhile for the adrenals and body in general to

> recover. I do think if I could stop the weight loss trend and start gaining

> then things may turn around, but digestion is an issue. Guess my whole body

> shut down. (I'm 5'4, 113 lbs, zero body fat, and premenapausal but no

> periods for many years due to low body fat.)

>

> Thyroid issues are coupled to adrenals and hormones, and very difficult to

> deconvolute. There are several that are wonderful but no

> athletes to talk to. We are alone, unless we all compare notes here. I do

> hope to be able to run outdoors again and love it -- I will do it,

> hopefully. http://www.nthadrenalsweb.com

> NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> RT3_T3/ http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/

> Gloria Bach Willseyville NY

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , could you please expand upon this statement in regards to the

> > > > > training

> > > > > of the joints, not so much in terms of exercises, but in terms of

> > > loading

> > > > > parameters.

> > > > >

> > > > > Casler WRITES:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi ,

> > > > >

> > > > > Loading parameters would be based on the desired

> condition/adaptation

> > > and

> > > > > present condition just like loading the musculature.

> > > > >

> > > > > My point was that joints, ligaments, and bones are also tissues

> that

> > > have a

> > > > > stimulus adaptation cycle. Seldom do we see much focus on them. I

> > think

> > > > > my

> > > > > acknowledgment and concern stems from training as I get into my

> 60's.

> > > At

> > > > > my

> > > > > age skeletal and joint concerns become more important.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bones, and connective tissue have low to no blood supply and their

> > > growth,

> > > > > and recovery are slower than the muscle tissues. I read recently

> that

> > > > > cartilaginous tissues seem to receive at least some of their

> > nutrients

> > > from

> > > > > synovial. That is, as a joint receives load forces and the

> cartilage

> > is

> > > > > compressed from that load, it reduces hydration. This is a well

> known

> > > > > situation with spinal discs. The decompression cycle then helps

> > > rehydrate

> > > > > and draw in a small amount of nutritive elements to that tissue.

> > > > >

> > > > > So the task is to find the correct loading to the cycles of

> > compression

> > > and

> > > > > decompression (and other stress types) that will produce a

> > conditioning

> > > > > effect to those tissues without " overtraining " . It is as simple as

> > > > > training

> > > > > the musculature, but also complex, due to the fact that you are

> > dealing

> > > > > with

> > > > > two critical variables:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1)Present Condition and the level of load that will be required to

> > > produce

> > > > > positive adaptation

> > > > >

> > > > > 2)Age and the amount of recovery required between loading bouts.

> > > > >

> > > > > Obviously this is significantly different than training the muscles

> > > even

> > > > > though we use essentially the SAME exercise actions.

> > > > >

> > > > > As well we generally have 3 main tissues to be aware of:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1)Bones which need general heavy load stresses to gain or retain

> > > > > mineralization

> > > > >

> > > > > 2)Ligaments which require regular stresses to reduce age related

> > > stiffness

> > > > >

> > > > > 3) Cartilages which require appropriate cyclic compression and

> > > > > decompression

> > > > > to facilitate synovium saturations and hydrations

> > > > >

> > > > > I am simply recognizing the need to consider these elements to

> > various

> > > > > goals. To be sure when we are young athletes, much of this is

> > > accommodated

> > > > > via general heavy training. When we are in some sports that take a

> > toll

> > > on

> > > > > joints and connective tissues it might be wise to keep these

> elements

> > > in

> > > > > mind. Also as we age, training adjustments that consider using

> > actions

> > > > > that

> > > > > facilitate synovium distribution might improve the adaptation

> > overall.

> > > > >

> > > > > To be sure there are other considerations in training that can both

> > > > > strengthen and spare the joints and connective tissues from injury

> > and

> > > > > overtraining. However, to my way of thinking, many of the injuries

> we

> > > have

> > > > > in sports and training relate to either muscles, or joints. We

> surely

> > > are

> > > > > cognizant of muscle training as a priority, but seldom to we

> equally

> > > > > examine

> > > > > the biomechanical and physiological specifics of the stresses

> placed

> > on

> > > > > joints except as a reactive therapy.

> > > > >

> > > > > If we trained athletes and ourselves with the joints and skeleton

> > > receiving

> > > > > equal priority as muscular strength conditioning I feel the result

> > > would be

> > > > > less injuries and a higher level of conditioning overall.

> > > > >

> > > > > I recall in High School I had a coach who had all of us walk at

> least

> > > one

> > > > > lap around the gym floor on the outside of our feet and ankles. In

> > the

> > > > > beginning this was a little difficult, but after a short time it

> was

> > > quite

> > > > > easy. This exercise was NOT actually to train specific muscles but

> > more

> > > > > focused on strengthening the ankle joint to reduce lateral ankle

> > > sprains.

> > > > > And it seemed to work as not one of my teammates suffered from such

> > an

> > > > > injury the whole season. This is an example of training a joint to

> a

> > > > > condition that facilitates a sport.

> > > > >

> > > > > For years I have developed and employed a system of training I use

> > with

> > > > > Senior Citizens where I can present rather serious LOADS to their

> > > Skeletons

> > > > > with minimal risk. These are loads that they never would achieve

> any

> > > other

> > > > > way, with the goal being to prevent osteoporosis by creating

> > > significant

> > > > > skeletal loading safely and progressively. That, and my personal

> > > interest

> > > > > in HEAVY training as I age led me to these considerations. With the

> > > goal

> > > > > of

> > > > > physical and functional longevity, it was/is important to consider

> > that

> > > > > HIGH

> > > > > STRESS loadings tend to lead to joint problems IF not managed in a

> > way

> > > that

> > > > > makes then produce productive adaptations as opposed to the

> opposite.

> > > > >

> > > > > So that is what I was alluding to.

> > > > > ================================

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Modify/cancel your subscription at:

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> > > > >

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> > > > >

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