Re: Re: Size Principle. IIB AND IIx -- IIx not IIb

[Guest guest]

Nothing that I have seen indicates that Type I converts to Type II.

Kenny Croxdale

Rio Rancho, NM

Re: Size Principle. IIB AND IIx -- IIx not IIb

Thank you gentlemen:

What is interesting is the ability of individuals through proper stimulus

(training) to not merely influence the conversion, (because it has been

demonstrated many times over that this is not only possible but somewhat

predictable) but to minimize the time necessary for this to occur. In my

opinion, this is where the next frontier of coaching resides it is obvious we

can raise an athlete to elite levels but can we as coaches do it in a

predictable fashion in less time?

With all the available data, access to the most abundant resources in the world

and many years of experience under our belt that we should have it figured out

by now. However it would appear that currently that technology remains yet

undiscovered. Regarding fiber conversion it would be simple to say the easiest

and most predictable way to influence fiber conversion from type I to type IIa -

IIx would entail creating an optimal conversion environment. Increase the

efficiency of that environment and voila' more rapid conversion. The question of

the day is??? can we create that ultra-efficient environment?

-Stafit01

[Please don't forget to sign your posts with your full name, city and country of

residence - many thanks]

> >

> > > Jerry,

> > > It seems that IIx are what it used to be incorrectly called IIb. I

> > > mentioned

> > > this in a 12/8/09 post, citing from a 2000 paper* the relevant

> > > passages:

> > >

> > > In this way the histological identification of three main human

> > > muscle fibre

> > > types (I, IIA and IIX, previously called IIB) has been followed by a

> > > precise

> > > description of molecular composition and functional and biochemical

> > > properties. ...

> > > In this review the MHC isoform composition will be adopted as the

> > > criteria

> > > for fibre classification. To be fully consistent with this choice

> > > the fibres

> > > containing MHC-IIX will be identified as IIX fibres, despite the

> > > fact that

> > > most papers have used in the past and still use now the term IIB

> > > fibres. No

> > > fibres containing MHC-IIB have been until now found in human muscles

> > > although the gene coding for this isoform is present in the human

> > > genome and

> > > has

> > > been localized on chromosome 17.

> > >

> > > Note*:

> > >

> > > Bottinelli R, Reggiani C. Human skeletal muscle fibres: molecular and

> > > functional diversity. Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology.

> > > 2000;73(2-4):195-262.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kenny,

The article I referenced in my previous post (see abstract link and If

picture too), indicates that Type I converts to Type II. Could you please

indicate what you don't find convincing in it?

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 9:16 AM, <KennyCrox@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Nothing that I have seen indicates that Type I converts to Type II.

>

> Kenny Croxdale

> Rio Rancho, NM

>

>

> Re: Size Principle. IIB AND IIx -- IIx not IIb

>

> Thank you gentlemen:

>

> What is interesting is the ability of individuals through proper stimulus

> (training) to not merely influence the conversion, (because it has been

> demonstrated many times over that this is not only possible but somewhat

> predictable) but to minimize the time necessary for this to occur. In my

> opinion, this is where the next frontier of coaching resides it is obvious

> we can raise an athlete to elite levels but can we as coaches do it in a

> predictable fashion in less time?

> With all the available data, access to the most abundant resources in the

> world and many years of experience under our belt that we should have it

> figured out by now. However it would appear that currently that technology

> remains yet undiscovered. Regarding fiber conversion it would be simple to

> say the easiest and most predictable way to influence fiber conversion from

> type I to type IIa - IIx would entail creating an optimal conversion

> environment. Increase the efficiency of that environment and voila' more

> rapid conversion. The question of the day is??? can we create that

> ultra-efficient environment?

>

> -Stafit01

> [Please don't forget to sign your posts with your full name, city and

> country of residence - many thanks]

>

>

> > >

> > > > Jerry,

> > > > It seems that IIx are what it used to be incorrectly called IIb. I

> > > > mentioned

> > > > this in a 12/8/09 post, citing from a 2000 paper* the relevant

> > > > passages:

> > > >

> > > > In this way the histological identification of three main human

> > > > muscle fibre

> > > > types (I, IIA and IIX, previously called IIB) has been followed by a

> > > > precise

> > > > description of molecular composition and functional and biochemical

> > > > properties. ...

> > > > In this review the MHC isoform composition will be adopted as the

> > > > criteria

> > > > for fibre classification. To be fully consistent with this choice

> > > > the fibres

> > > > containing MHC-IIX will be identified as IIX fibres, despite the

> > > > fact that

> > > > most papers have used in the past and still use now the term IIB

> > > > fibres. No

> > > > fibres containing MHC-IIB have been until now found in human muscles

> > > > although the gene coding for this isoform is present in the human

> > > > genome and

> > > > has

> > > > been localized on chromosome 17.

> > > >

> > > > Note*:

> > > >

> > > > Bottinelli R, Reggiani C. Human skeletal muscle fibres: molecular and

> > > > functional diversity. Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology.

> > > > 2000;73(2-4):195-262.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Kenny,

The article I referenced in my previous post (see abstract link and If

picture too), indicates that Type I converts to Type II. Could you please

indicate what you don't find convincing in it?

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

Casler writes:

That is interesting as I was under the same impression as Kenny.

It is my understanding that the two or three elements to " fiber

classification typing " are:

1) Actual Size

2) Twitch Speed

3) Metabolic Type

This would mean that a TYPE I would have to increase in size, twitch speed,

and change metabolically?

As someone old enough to be concerned with sarcopenia which demonstrates a

greater TYPE II loss, I would be very interested in this supposition.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems

Century City, CA

-II-----II-

[Guest guest]

Giovanni,

I don't have your original post any more. Could you please resend it?

The information that I've found indicates Type I does not covert to Type II.

Below is one of my sources.

" ...there is no inter-conversion of fibers. FT fibers cannot become ST fibers,

or vice versa. " Karp/ " Muscle Fiber Type and Training.

http://www.coachr.org/fiber.htm

There is quite a bit of data that indicates the conversion of IIA to IIB/X and

IIB/X to IIA takes place.

Kenny Croxdale

Rio Rancho, NM

Re: Size Principle. IIB AND IIx -- IIx not IIb

Thank you gentlemen:

What is interesting is the ability of individuals through proper stimulus

(training) to not merely influence the conversion, (because it has been

demonstrated many times over that this is not only possible but somewhat

predictable) but to minimize the time necessary for this to occur. In my

opinion, this is where the next frontier of coaching resides it is obvious

we can raise an athlete to elite levels but can we as coaches do it in a

predictable fashion in less time?

With all the available data, access to the most abundant resources in the

world and many years of experience under our belt that we should have it

figured out by now. However it would appear that currently that technology

remains yet undiscovered. Regarding fiber conversion it would be simple to

say the easiest and most predictable way to influence fiber conversion from

type I to type IIa - IIx would entail creating an optimal conversion

environment. Increase the efficiency of that environment and voila' more

rapid conversion. The question of the day is??? can we create that

ultra-efficient environment?

=============================

[Guest guest]

Kenny,

You can look up my bibliography and abstracts at

http://www.globussht.com/ems-abstracts. The article I referenced is

Maffiuletti NA, Zory R, Miotti D, et al. Neuromuscular adaptations to

electrostimulation resistance training. Am J Phys Med Rehabil.

2006;85(2):167-75.

To download the whole article:

http://www.globussht.com/Maffiuletti-Ajpmr2006.pdf

But there are other sources as well, and even a textbook on EMS use:

Vrbova G, Hudlicka O, Schaefer Centofanti K. Application of Muscle-Nerve

Stimulation in Health and Disease. Springer; 2008.

If you study EMS a little, you will see that the conversion is very much

frequency dependent. There are about half a dozen parameters that need to be

mastered for proper EMS results. That's one reason why meta-studies on EMS

conclude that evidence is mixed: some studies do it right, and others screw

up some of the parameters.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 9:05 PM, <KennyCrox@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Giovanni,

>

> I don't have your original post any more. Could you please resend it?

>

> The information that I've found indicates Type I does not covert to Type

> II. Below is one of my sources.

>

> " ...there is no inter-conversion of fibers. FT fibers cannot become ST

> fibers, or vice versa. " Karp/ " Muscle Fiber Type and Training.

> http://www.coachr.org/fiber.htm

>

> There is quite a bit of data that indicates the conversion of IIA to IIB/X

> and IIB/X to IIA takes place.

>

> Kenny Croxdale

> Rio Rancho, NM

>

> Re: Size Principle. IIB AND IIx -- IIx not IIb

>

> Thank you gentlemen:

>

> What is interesting is the ability of individuals through proper stimulus

> (training) to not merely influence the conversion, (because it has been

> demonstrated many times over that this is not only possible but somewhat

> predictable) but to minimize the time necessary for this to occur. In my

> opinion, this is where the next frontier of coaching resides it is obvious

> we can raise an athlete to elite levels but can we as coaches do it in a

> predictable fashion in less time?

> With all the available data, access to the most abundant resources in the

> world and many years of experience under our belt that we should have it

> figured out by now. However it would appear that currently that technology

> remains yet undiscovered. Regarding fiber conversion it would be simple to

> say the easiest and most predictable way to influence fiber conversion from

> type I to type IIa - IIx would entail creating an optimal conversion

> environment. Increase the efficiency of that environment and voila' more

> rapid conversion. The question of the day is??? can we create that

> ultra-efficient environment?

>

> =============================

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I can take the horse to water but I cannot make it drink :-)

I made the study available for download for those who had no access to it;

however, I will take a sip for you. The study measured MVC (maximum

voluntary contraction) at week 8, that is 2 weeks after stopping EMS.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 11:14 AM, <jaredcrain@...> wrote:

>

>

> I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the EMS

> studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the external

> stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I was under the

> impression that fiber type followed innervation type. If the muscle cells

> and motor units are being stimulated by EMS, perhaps that stimulus could

> cause a change of fiber type, while traditional training would not be able

> to.

>

> It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve impulse

> to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to Type II, but its

> innervation remains the same, would those fibers then become " useless "

> because the nerve running to them wouldn't be capable of producing the

> stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

>

> Thanks,

> Crain

> Los Angeles, CA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

On Apr 12, 2010, at 9:14 AM, wrote:

> " would those fibers then become " useless " "

>

> I believe the fastest spike train for slow twitch is 50 spikes per

> sec. At that rate the electrically hypertrophied slow twitch would

> only be able to summate to that force. Fast twitch recruitment is

> about 90? spikes per second. I don't remember if the slow twitch

> spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast?

>

Maybe EMS would help with synchronicity?

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

> I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the

> EMS studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the

> external stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I

> was under the impression that fiber type followed innervation type.

> If the muscle cells and motor units are being stimulated by EMS,

> perhaps that stimulus could cause a change of fiber type, while

> traditional training would not be able to.

>

> It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve

> impulse to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to

> Type II, but its innervation remains the same, would those fibers

> then become " useless " because the nerve running to them wouldn't be

> capable of producing the stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

>

> Thanks,

> Crain

> Los Angeles, CA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

On Apr 12, 2010, at 9:14 AM, wrote:

> " would those fibers then become " useless " "

>

> I believe the fastest spike train for slow twitch is 50 spikes per

> sec. At that rate the electrically hypertrophied slow twitch would

> only be able to summate to that force. Fast twitch recruitment is

> about 90? spikes per second. I don't remember if the slow twitch

> spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast?

>

Maybe EMS would help with synchronicity?

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

> I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the

> EMS studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the

> external stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I

> was under the impression that fiber type followed innervation type.

> If the muscle cells and motor units are being stimulated by EMS,

> perhaps that stimulus could cause a change of fiber type, while

> traditional training would not be able to.

>

> It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve

> impulse to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to

> Type II, but its innervation remains the same, would those fibers

> then become " useless " because the nerve running to them wouldn't be

> capable of producing the stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

>

> Thanks,

> Crain

> Los Angeles, CA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jerry,

I'm not sure if you or somebody else wrote: " I don't remember if the slow

twitch spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast? " . But what does

amplitude mean in this context?

If anyone is interested I authored a thread explaining some of the

principles of EMS training in Charlie Francis forums:

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=19623

You can find further details on EMS in another document:

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ac87t44s_lPbZGd3NjY1d25fMzNmOHdiNmZmOQ & hl=en

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Jerry Telle <JRTELLE@...> wrote:

>

>

> Greetings,

>

>

> On Apr 12, 2010, at 9:14 AM, wrote:

>

> > " would those fibers then become " useless " "

> >

> > I believe the fastest spike train for slow twitch is 50 spikes per

> > sec. At that rate the electrically hypertrophied slow twitch would

> > only be able to summate to that force. Fast twitch recruitment is

> > about 90? spikes per second. I don't remember if the slow twitch

> > spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast?

> >

> Maybe EMS would help with synchronicity?

>

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

> > I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the

> > EMS studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the

> > external stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I

> > was under the impression that fiber type followed innervation type.

> > If the muscle cells and motor units are being stimulated by EMS,

> > perhaps that stimulus could cause a change of fiber type, while

> > traditional training would not be able to.

> >

> > It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve

> > impulse to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to

> > Type II, but its innervation remains the same, would those fibers

> > then become " useless " because the nerve running to them wouldn't be

> > capable of producing the stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Crain

> > Los Angeles, CA

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jerry,

I'm not sure if you or somebody else wrote: " I don't remember if the slow

twitch spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast? " . But what does

amplitude mean in this context?

If anyone is interested I authored a thread explaining some of the

principles of EMS training in Charlie Francis forums:

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=19623

You can find further details on EMS in another document:

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ac87t44s_lPbZGd3NjY1d25fMzNmOHdiNmZmOQ & hl=en

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Jerry Telle <JRTELLE@...> wrote:

>

>

> Greetings,

>

>

> On Apr 12, 2010, at 9:14 AM, wrote:

>

> > " would those fibers then become " useless " "

> >

> > I believe the fastest spike train for slow twitch is 50 spikes per

> > sec. At that rate the electrically hypertrophied slow twitch would

> > only be able to summate to that force. Fast twitch recruitment is

> > about 90? spikes per second. I don't remember if the slow twitch

> > spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast?

> >

> Maybe EMS would help with synchronicity?

>

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

> > I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the

> > EMS studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the

> > external stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I

> > was under the impression that fiber type followed innervation type.

> > If the muscle cells and motor units are being stimulated by EMS,

> > perhaps that stimulus could cause a change of fiber type, while

> > traditional training would not be able to.

> >

> > It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve

> > impulse to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to

> > Type II, but its innervation remains the same, would those fibers

> > then become " useless " because the nerve running to them wouldn't be

> > capable of producing the stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Crain

> > Los Angeles, CA

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amplitude as in electrical strength. The second abstract is

interesting because of its position that higher threshold fiber can be

preferentially recruited. I have yet to read the study but its

entirety is at the google site

J Neurophysiol 40: 779-790, 1977;

0022-3077/77 $5.00

Journal of Neurophysiology, Vol 40, Issue 4 779-790, Copyright © 1977

by APS

ARTICLES

Recruitment and suprathreshold frequency modulation of single

extraocular muscle fibers in the rabbit

N. H. Barmack

1. The isometric tension developed by the inferior rectus muscle of

the rabbit was modulated by the vestibuloocular reflex (VOR) in

unanesthetized rabbits. 2. Single muscle fiber activity was recorded

from the inferior rectus muscle during reflex activation. The force at

which a muscle fiber was recruited and its suprathreshold frequency-

force relationship were studied. 3. The size of individual motor units

was measured by averaging the tension which was " time-locked " to the

discharge of a single muscle fiber. The average motor unit twitch

amplitude was 1.3 mg. 4. The suprathreshold frequency-force function

was characterized by an initially steep slope, followed by a less

steep slope, until a level of saturationwas reached at higher forces.

6. Motor unit size was linearly related to recruitment threshold.

Small motor units also had a significantly steeperfrequency-force

relationship than larger motor units. 7. The relationship between

motor unit size and recruitment threshold appears to compensate for

changes in the operating point on the length-tension curve of

extraocular muscl.

AND

J R Soc Interface. 2006 August 22; 3(9): 533–544.

Published online 2006 February 10. doi: 10.1098/rsif.2006.0113.

PMCID: PMC1664648

Copyright © 2006 The Royal Society

Muscle fibre recruitment can respond to the mechanics of the muscle

contraction

M Wakeling,1* Katrin Uehli,1 and Antra I Rozitis2

1Structure and Motion Laboratory, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead

Lane, North Mymms, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 7TA, UK

2Human Performance Laboratory, Faculty of Kinesiology, University of

Calgary, Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4, Canada

*Author for correspondence (; Email: jwakeling@...)

Received December 20, 2005; Accepted January 24, 2006.

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Other Sectionsâ–¼

ABSTRACT

This study investigates the motor unit recruitment patterns between

and within muscles of the triceps surae during cycling on a stationary

ergometer at a range of pedal speeds and resistances. Muscle activity

was measured from the soleus (SOL), medial gastrocnemius (MG) and

lateral gastrocnemius (LG) using surface electromyography (EMG) and

quantified using wavelet and principal component analysis. Muscle

fascicle strain rates were quantified using ultrasonography, and the

muscle–tendon unit lengths were calculated from the segmental

kinematics. The EMG intensities showed that the body uses the SOL

relatively more for the higher-force, lower-velocity contractions than

the MG and LG. The EMG spectra showed a shift to higher frequencies at

faster muscle fascicle strain rates for MG: these shifts were

independent of the level of muscle activity, the locomotor load and

the muscle fascicle strain. These results indicated that a selective

recruitment of the faster motor units occurred within the MG muscle in

response to the increasing muscle fascicle strain rates. This

preferential recruitment of the faster fibres for the faster tasks

indicates that in some circumstances motor unit recruitment during

locomotion can match the contractile properties of the muscle fibres

to the mechanical demands of the contraction.

Keywords: muscle, recruitment, fibre-type

Jerry Telle

CO, USA

On Apr 14, 2010, at 5:51 AM, Giovanni Ciriani wrote:

> I'm not sure if you or somebody else wrote: " I don't remember if the

> slow

> twitch spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast? " . But what does

> amplitude mean in this context?

[Guest guest]

Amplitude as in electrical strength. The second abstract is

interesting because of its position that higher threshold fiber can be

preferentially recruited. I have yet to read the study but its

entirety is at the google site

J Neurophysiol 40: 779-790, 1977;

0022-3077/77 $5.00

Journal of Neurophysiology, Vol 40, Issue 4 779-790, Copyright © 1977

by APS

ARTICLES

Recruitment and suprathreshold frequency modulation of single

extraocular muscle fibers in the rabbit

N. H. Barmack

1. The isometric tension developed by the inferior rectus muscle of

the rabbit was modulated by the vestibuloocular reflex (VOR) in

unanesthetized rabbits. 2. Single muscle fiber activity was recorded

from the inferior rectus muscle during reflex activation. The force at

which a muscle fiber was recruited and its suprathreshold frequency-

force relationship were studied. 3. The size of individual motor units

was measured by averaging the tension which was " time-locked " to the

discharge of a single muscle fiber. The average motor unit twitch

amplitude was 1.3 mg. 4. The suprathreshold frequency-force function

was characterized by an initially steep slope, followed by a less

steep slope, until a level of saturationwas reached at higher forces.

6. Motor unit size was linearly related to recruitment threshold.

Small motor units also had a significantly steeperfrequency-force

relationship than larger motor units. 7. The relationship between

motor unit size and recruitment threshold appears to compensate for

changes in the operating point on the length-tension curve of

extraocular muscl.

AND

J R Soc Interface. 2006 August 22; 3(9): 533–544.

Published online 2006 February 10. doi: 10.1098/rsif.2006.0113.

PMCID: PMC1664648

Copyright © 2006 The Royal Society

Muscle fibre recruitment can respond to the mechanics of the muscle

contraction

M Wakeling,1* Katrin Uehli,1 and Antra I Rozitis2

1Structure and Motion Laboratory, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead

Lane, North Mymms, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 7TA, UK

2Human Performance Laboratory, Faculty of Kinesiology, University of

Calgary, Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4, Canada

*Author for correspondence (; Email: jwakeling@...)

Received December 20, 2005; Accepted January 24, 2006.

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Other Sectionsâ–¼

ABSTRACT

This study investigates the motor unit recruitment patterns between

and within muscles of the triceps surae during cycling on a stationary

ergometer at a range of pedal speeds and resistances. Muscle activity

was measured from the soleus (SOL), medial gastrocnemius (MG) and

lateral gastrocnemius (LG) using surface electromyography (EMG) and

quantified using wavelet and principal component analysis. Muscle

fascicle strain rates were quantified using ultrasonography, and the

muscle–tendon unit lengths were calculated from the segmental

kinematics. The EMG intensities showed that the body uses the SOL

relatively more for the higher-force, lower-velocity contractions than

the MG and LG. The EMG spectra showed a shift to higher frequencies at

faster muscle fascicle strain rates for MG: these shifts were

independent of the level of muscle activity, the locomotor load and

the muscle fascicle strain. These results indicated that a selective

recruitment of the faster motor units occurred within the MG muscle in

response to the increasing muscle fascicle strain rates. This

preferential recruitment of the faster fibres for the faster tasks

indicates that in some circumstances motor unit recruitment during

locomotion can match the contractile properties of the muscle fibres

to the mechanical demands of the contraction.

Keywords: muscle, recruitment, fibre-type

Jerry Telle

CO, USA

On Apr 14, 2010, at 5:51 AM, Giovanni Ciriani wrote:

> I'm not sure if you or somebody else wrote: " I don't remember if the

> slow

> twitch spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast? " . But what does

> amplitude mean in this context?

[Guest guest]

,

I already posted my reply to your message in the other thread: you need to

ask this question of a group that actually have direct experience with the

EMS, and not of outsiders, and I gave you two different groups I'm aware of.

I do not mean any disrespect to this group.

Since you asked again: EMS causes muscle contractions that are very

physiological. The only difference is that they are involuntary, i.e. not

commanded by your brain. All the rest is identical: the force generated is

physiological, the calories burned are physiological, the fatigue generated

is physiological. If you do to much of it, like any form of exercise, the

soreness you'll feel in your muscles the next day will be very

physiological.

The weak electrical current used by EMS merely trigger the nerves that

innervate the muscles. The triggering mechanism generates an action

potential along the nerve identical to the action potential caused by a

voluntary muscle contraction, and it is these nerves that tell the muscle to

contract.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:24 PM, joelpierre2003 <joelpierre2003@...>wrote:

>

>

> Accidently posted this under the wrong message the first time.

>

> am curious about the groups thoughts on possible detrimental effects of EMS

> on

> the body. Anabolics, HGH, etc. introduce foreign stimuli into the bodies

> systems

> as opposed to exercise induced changes where the systems regulate

> themselves. In

> much the same way, foreign electrical charges are being introduced into the

> body

> as opposed to the body creating their own charges. Is there a possible

> downside

> to this and could it induce changes to the organism that would be

> counterproductive to health?

>

> Pierre

> Santa Cruz, CA

>

>

>

> > >

> > > > " would those fibers then become " useless " "

> > > >

> > > > I believe the fastest spike train for slow twitch is 50 spikes per

> > > > sec. At that rate the electrically hypertrophied slow twitch would

> > > > only be able to summate to that force. Fast twitch recruitment is

> > > > about 90? spikes per second. I don't remember if the slow twitch

> > > > spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast?

> > > >

> > > Maybe EMS would help with synchronicity?

> > >

> > >

> > > Jerry Telle

> > > Lakewood CO USA

> > >

> > > > I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the

> > > > EMS studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the

> > > > external stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I

> > > > was under the impression that fiber type followed innervation type.

> > > > If the muscle cells and motor units are being stimulated by EMS,

> > > > perhaps that stimulus could cause a change of fiber type, while

> > > > traditional training would not be able to.

> > > >

> > > > It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve

> > > > impulse to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to

> > > > Type II, but its innervation remains the same, would those fibers

> > > > then become " useless " because the nerve running to them wouldn't be

> > > > capable of producing the stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Crain

> > > > Los Angeles, CA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

I already posted my reply to your message in the other thread: you need to

ask this question of a group that actually have direct experience with the

EMS, and not of outsiders, and I gave you two different groups I'm aware of.

I do not mean any disrespect to this group.

Since you asked again: EMS causes muscle contractions that are very

physiological. The only difference is that they are involuntary, i.e. not

commanded by your brain. All the rest is identical: the force generated is

physiological, the calories burned are physiological, the fatigue generated

is physiological. If you do to much of it, like any form of exercise, the

soreness you'll feel in your muscles the next day will be very

physiological.

The weak electrical current used by EMS merely trigger the nerves that

innervate the muscles. The triggering mechanism generates an action

potential along the nerve identical to the action potential caused by a

voluntary muscle contraction, and it is these nerves that tell the muscle to

contract.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:24 PM, joelpierre2003 <joelpierre2003@...>wrote:

>

>

> Accidently posted this under the wrong message the first time.

>

> am curious about the groups thoughts on possible detrimental effects of EMS

> on

> the body. Anabolics, HGH, etc. introduce foreign stimuli into the bodies

> systems

> as opposed to exercise induced changes where the systems regulate

> themselves. In

> much the same way, foreign electrical charges are being introduced into the

> body

> as opposed to the body creating their own charges. Is there a possible

> downside

> to this and could it induce changes to the organism that would be

> counterproductive to health?

>

> Pierre

> Santa Cruz, CA

>

>

>

> > >

> > > > " would those fibers then become " useless " "

> > > >

> > > > I believe the fastest spike train for slow twitch is 50 spikes per

> > > > sec. At that rate the electrically hypertrophied slow twitch would

> > > > only be able to summate to that force. Fast twitch recruitment is

> > > > about 90? spikes per second. I don't remember if the slow twitch

> > > > spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast?

> > > >

> > > Maybe EMS would help with synchronicity?

> > >

> > >

> > > Jerry Telle

> > > Lakewood CO USA

> > >

> > > > I haven't read the studies Giovanni cited, but it seems likely the

> > > > EMS studies saw Type I fibers change to Type II because of the

> > > > external stimulation (EMS). As indicated above (by Jerry Telle), I

> > > > was under the impression that fiber type followed innervation type.

> > > > If the muscle cells and motor units are being stimulated by EMS,

> > > > perhaps that stimulus could cause a change of fiber type, while

> > > > traditional training would not be able to.

> > > >

> > > > It is my understanding that Type II fibers require a greater nerve

> > > > impulse to actually fire ... if you change a fiber from Type I to

> > > > Type II, but its innervation remains the same, would those fibers

> > > > then become " useless " because the nerve running to them wouldn't be

> > > > capable of producing the stimulus necessary to cause a contraction?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Crain

> > > > Los Angeles, CA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Jerry,

I think there is a misunderstanding of terms. The post I quoted was

referring to electricity (characterized by voltage measure in Volts V and

intensity measure in Amperes A). The first article you cited, by amplitude

means force developed by the muscle fiber, measured in milli-grams (mg,

thousandths of grams).

The second article doesn't mention higher threshold as you wrote, but it is

very, very interesting for a completely different reason. It would seem to

indirectly imply that, for the same force requirement, the body switches

from one muscle to another muscle to match the speed of the task. Thank you

for sharing this article.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Jerry Telle <JRTELLE@...> wrote:

>

>

> Amplitude as in electrical strength. The second abstract is

> interesting because of its position that higher threshold fiber can be

> preferentially recruited. I have yet to read the study but its

> entirety is at the google site

>

> J Neurophysiol 40: 779-790, 1977;

> 0022-3077/77 $5.00

> Journal of Neurophysiology, Vol 40, Issue 4 779-790, Copyright © 1977

> by APS

>

> ARTICLES

>

> Recruitment and suprathreshold frequency modulation of single

> extraocular muscle fibers in the rabbit

>

> N. H. Barmack

>

> 1. The isometric tension developed by the inferior rectus muscle of

> the rabbit was modulated by the vestibuloocular reflex (VOR) in

> unanesthetized rabbits. 2. Single muscle fiber activity was recorded

> from the inferior rectus muscle during reflex activation. The force at

> which a muscle fiber was recruited and its suprathreshold frequency-

> force relationship were studied. 3. The size of individual motor units

> was measured by averaging the tension which was " time-locked " to the

> discharge of a single muscle fiber. The average motor unit twitch

> amplitude was 1.3 mg. 4. The suprathreshold frequency-force function

> was characterized by an initially steep slope, followed by a less

> steep slope, until a level of saturationwas reached at higher forces.

> 6. Motor unit size was linearly related to recruitment threshold.

> Small motor units also had a significantly steeperfrequency-force

> relationship than larger motor units. 7. The relationship between

> motor unit size and recruitment threshold appears to compensate for

> changes in the operating point on the length-tension curve of

> extraocular muscl.

>

> AND

>

> J R Soc Interface. 2006 August 22; 3(9): 533–544.

> Published online 2006 February 10. doi: 10.1098/rsif.2006.0113.

> PMCID: PMC1664648

> Copyright © 2006 The Royal Society

> Muscle fibre recruitment can respond to the mechanics of the muscle

> contraction

> M Wakeling,1* Katrin Uehli,1 and Antra I Rozitis2

> 1Structure and Motion Laboratory, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead

> Lane, North Mymms, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 7TA, UK

> 2Human Performance Laboratory, Faculty of Kinesiology, University of

> Calgary, Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4, Canada

> *Author for correspondence (; Email:

jwakeling@...<jwakeling%40rvc.ac.uk>

> )

> Received December 20, 2005; Accepted January 24, 2006.

> This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

> Other Sectionsâ–¼

> ABSTRACT

> This study investigates the motor unit recruitment patterns between

> and within muscles of the triceps surae during cycling on a stationary

> ergometer at a range of pedal speeds and resistances. Muscle activity

> was measured from the soleus (SOL), medial gastrocnemius (MG) and

> lateral gastrocnemius (LG) using surface electromyography (EMG) and

> quantified using wavelet and principal component analysis. Muscle

> fascicle strain rates were quantified using ultrasonography, and the

> muscle–tendon unit lengths were calculated from the segmental

> kinematics. The EMG intensities showed that the body uses the SOL

> relatively more for the higher-force, lower-velocity contractions than

> the MG and LG. The EMG spectra showed a shift to higher frequencies at

> faster muscle fascicle strain rates for MG: these shifts were

> independent of the level of muscle activity, the locomotor load and

> the muscle fascicle strain. These results indicated that a selective

> recruitment of the faster motor units occurred within the MG muscle in

> response to the increasing muscle fascicle strain rates. This

> preferential recruitment of the faster fibres for the faster tasks

> indicates that in some circumstances motor unit recruitment during

> locomotion can match the contractile properties of the muscle fibres

> to the mechanical demands of the contraction.

> Keywords: muscle, recruitment, fibre-type

>

> Jerry Telle

> CO, USA

>

>

> On Apr 14, 2010, at 5:51 AM, Giovanni Ciriani wrote:

>

> > I'm not sure if you or somebody else wrote: " I don't remember if the

> > slow

> > twitch spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast? " . But what does

> > amplitude mean in this context?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jerry,

I think there is a misunderstanding of terms. The post I quoted was

referring to electricity (characterized by voltage measure in Volts V and

intensity measure in Amperes A). The first article you cited, by amplitude

means force developed by the muscle fiber, measured in milli-grams (mg,

thousandths of grams).

The second article doesn't mention higher threshold as you wrote, but it is

very, very interesting for a completely different reason. It would seem to

indirectly imply that, for the same force requirement, the body switches

from one muscle to another muscle to match the speed of the task. Thank you

for sharing this article.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Jerry Telle <JRTELLE@...> wrote:

>

>

> Amplitude as in electrical strength. The second abstract is

> interesting because of its position that higher threshold fiber can be

> preferentially recruited. I have yet to read the study but its

> entirety is at the google site

>

> J Neurophysiol 40: 779-790, 1977;

> 0022-3077/77 $5.00

> Journal of Neurophysiology, Vol 40, Issue 4 779-790, Copyright © 1977

> by APS

>

> ARTICLES

>

> Recruitment and suprathreshold frequency modulation of single

> extraocular muscle fibers in the rabbit

>

> N. H. Barmack

>

> 1. The isometric tension developed by the inferior rectus muscle of

> the rabbit was modulated by the vestibuloocular reflex (VOR) in

> unanesthetized rabbits. 2. Single muscle fiber activity was recorded

> from the inferior rectus muscle during reflex activation. The force at

> which a muscle fiber was recruited and its suprathreshold frequency-

> force relationship were studied. 3. The size of individual motor units

> was measured by averaging the tension which was " time-locked " to the

> discharge of a single muscle fiber. The average motor unit twitch

> amplitude was 1.3 mg. 4. The suprathreshold frequency-force function

> was characterized by an initially steep slope, followed by a less

> steep slope, until a level of saturationwas reached at higher forces.

> 6. Motor unit size was linearly related to recruitment threshold.

> Small motor units also had a significantly steeperfrequency-force

> relationship than larger motor units. 7. The relationship between

> motor unit size and recruitment threshold appears to compensate for

> changes in the operating point on the length-tension curve of

> extraocular muscl.

>

> AND

>

> J R Soc Interface. 2006 August 22; 3(9): 533–544.

> Published online 2006 February 10. doi: 10.1098/rsif.2006.0113.

> PMCID: PMC1664648

> Copyright © 2006 The Royal Society

> Muscle fibre recruitment can respond to the mechanics of the muscle

> contraction

> M Wakeling,1* Katrin Uehli,1 and Antra I Rozitis2

> 1Structure and Motion Laboratory, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead

> Lane, North Mymms, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 7TA, UK

> 2Human Performance Laboratory, Faculty of Kinesiology, University of

> Calgary, Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4, Canada

> *Author for correspondence (; Email:

jwakeling@...<jwakeling%40rvc.ac.uk>

> )

> Received December 20, 2005; Accepted January 24, 2006.

> This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

> Other Sectionsâ–¼

> ABSTRACT

> This study investigates the motor unit recruitment patterns between

> and within muscles of the triceps surae during cycling on a stationary

> ergometer at a range of pedal speeds and resistances. Muscle activity

> was measured from the soleus (SOL), medial gastrocnemius (MG) and

> lateral gastrocnemius (LG) using surface electromyography (EMG) and

> quantified using wavelet and principal component analysis. Muscle

> fascicle strain rates were quantified using ultrasonography, and the

> muscle–tendon unit lengths were calculated from the segmental

> kinematics. The EMG intensities showed that the body uses the SOL

> relatively more for the higher-force, lower-velocity contractions than

> the MG and LG. The EMG spectra showed a shift to higher frequencies at

> faster muscle fascicle strain rates for MG: these shifts were

> independent of the level of muscle activity, the locomotor load and

> the muscle fascicle strain. These results indicated that a selective

> recruitment of the faster motor units occurred within the MG muscle in

> response to the increasing muscle fascicle strain rates. This

> preferential recruitment of the faster fibres for the faster tasks

> indicates that in some circumstances motor unit recruitment during

> locomotion can match the contractile properties of the muscle fibres

> to the mechanical demands of the contraction.

> Keywords: muscle, recruitment, fibre-type

>

> Jerry Telle

> CO, USA

>

>

> On Apr 14, 2010, at 5:51 AM, Giovanni Ciriani wrote:

>

> > I'm not sure if you or somebody else wrote: " I don't remember if the

> > slow

> > twitch spikes are of the same amplitude as the fast? " . But what does

> > amplitude mean in this context?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Right, I missed that.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:32 AM, Giovanni Ciriani wrote:

> I think there is a misunderstanding of terms. The post I quoted was

> referring to electricity (characterized by voltage measure in Volts

> V and

> intensity measure in Amperes A). The first article you cited, by

> amplitude

> means force developed by the muscle fiber, measured in milli-grams

> (mg,

> thousandths of grams).