Re: Cycling Sprint - Power output ceiling 23-40sec

[Guest guest]

Neural Fatigue?

If you have not run out of either cardio-vascular or glycogenicfuel, what else

can you have run out of?

Sturgess

Nottingham, England

========================================

Message Received: Feb 17 2010, 09:36 AM

From: " philbushell "

Supertraining

Cc:

Subject: Cycling Sprint - Power output ceiling 23-40sec

A number of 50+ masters track riders have related the experience of not being

able to apply more power in a 500m TT after the initial standing start despite

feeling physically able. i.e. Riders will perform a 500m TT on a 250m track.

From a standing start they will be out of the saddle for around 200m then sit

and continue to feel like power is being applied for the next 75 or so metres

(just over one lap) then be unable to apply additional power for the final 220

or so metres. They report that they are 1. Not running out of puff, 2. Not

spinning out, 2. Not grinding - gear doesn't feel too hard; but when they

attempt to apply additional power from about 22s or 23s mark the " mind says go

but the legs don't respond " and can only maintain the current speed and cadence

to the finish. This typically occurs from 22s after the start to the end at

around 40s.

I suspect this is related to the depletion of glycogen levels after the initial

effort but before the pain associated with the build up of " whatever it is that

used to be called lactic acid " has been able to kick in properly. (those of us

lucky enough to have to ride a third lap are fully aware of the discomfort that

builds from about 35 sec to 60s)

What is the likely cause and more importantly what suggestions are there to

reduce this through training?

Phil Bushell Melbourne Australia.

[Guest guest]

Creatine Phosphate and ATP provide all the energy needed for the first 20-30

seconds of an all out effort. This is called the alactic anaerobic phase of

energy production. Once they CP and ATP are depleted they need to be

regenerated and this involves the next phase the glycolytic phase of anaerobic

work. During this second phase glycogen supplies to the glucose. Lactate will

begin to accumulate during this phase. The cardiovascular system is not taxed

during alactic anaerobic phase, and minimally during the glycolytic phase. The

riders have probably already topped out in terms of muscle fiber recruitment

during the first 20-30 seconds- I suspect that this is probably similar to the

sprinter reaching max acceleration at about 60 meters in the 100 meter sprint.

Glycogen is not involved int he first 20+seconds- Well conditioned top athletes

can probably rely solely o CP and ATP for as long as 40 seconds. While Creatine

supplementation might help this I am of the opinion that it is better to train

the muscles to regenerate their own creatine phospate and atp.

Perhaps the best way to train this phase is to do more 20-30 second repeats-

intervals allowing plenty of the time between each repeat to completely recover.

For example a hard out of the saddle sprint for at least 200 meters and if

possible longer. Allow 2-3 minutes recovery - easy pedaling and repeat. The

recovery time allows for repelenishment of Creatine Phosphate and ATP.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

________________________________

From: philbushell <pbushell@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 1:58:27 AM

Subject: Cycling Sprint - Power output ceiling 23-40sec

A number of 50+ masters track riders have related the experience of not being

able to apply more power in a 500m TT after the initial standing start despite

feeling physically able. i.e. Riders will perform a 500m TT on a 250m track.

From a standing start they will be out of the saddle for around 200m then sit

and continue to feel like power is being applied for the next 75 or so metres

(just over one lap) then be unable to apply additional power for the final 220

or so metres. They report that they are 1. Not running out of puff, 2. Not

spinning out, 2. Not grinding - gear doesn't feel too hard; but when they

attempt to apply additional power from about 22s or 23s mark the " mind says go

but the legs don't respond " and can only maintain the current speed and cadence

to the finish. This typically occurs from 22s after the start to the end at

around 40s.

I suspect this is related to the depletion of glycogen levels after the initial

effort but before the pain associated with the build up of " whatever it is that

used to be called lactic acid " has been able to kick in properly. (those of us

lucky enough to have to ride a third lap are fully aware of the discomfort that

builds from about 35 sec to 60s)

What is the likely cause and more importantly what suggestions are there to

reduce this through training?

Phil Bushell Melbourne Australia.

[Guest guest]

Phil, do trackies use power meters on their bikes? If so what kind of power

outputs are being generated during these sprints? If you know of a trackie who

uses a power meter it might be interesting in looking at the power profile

during the entire 40-60 s sprint. I would not be surprised if you find that

the maximum power out put is being generated during the out of saddle phase and

that the power tapers during the seated phase.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

________________________________

From: philbushell <pbushell@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 1:58:27 AM

Subject: Cycling Sprint - Power output ceiling 23-40sec

A number of 50+ masters track riders have related the experience of not being

able to apply more power in a 500m TT after the initial standing start despite

feeling physically able. i.e. Riders will perform a 500m TT on a 250m track.

From a standing start they will be out of the saddle for around 200m then sit

and continue to feel like power is being applied for the next 75 or so metres

(just over one lap) then be unable to apply additional power for the final 220

or so metres. They report that they are 1. Not running out of puff, 2. Not

spinning out, 2. Not grinding - gear doesn't feel too hard; but when they

attempt to apply additional power from about 22s or 23s mark the " mind says go

but the legs don't respond " and can only maintain the current speed and cadence

to the finish. This typically occurs from 22s after the start to the end at

around 40s.

I suspect this is related to the depletion of glycogen levels after the initial

effort but before the pain associated with the build up of " whatever it is that

used to be called lactic acid " has been able to kick in properly. (those of us

lucky enough to have to ride a third lap are fully aware of the discomfort that

builds from about 35 sec to 60s)

What is the likely cause and more importantly what suggestions are there to

reduce this through training?

Phil Bushell Melbourne Australia.

[Guest guest]

Phil,

If your description is correct then they have just reached their maximum

power. If instead you use the term power to mean acceleration or something

else, please explain.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:58 AM, philbushell <pbushell@...> wrote:

>

>

> A number of 50+ masters track riders have related the experience of not

> being able to apply more power in a 500m TT after the initial standing start

> despite feeling physically able. i.e. Riders will perform a 500m TT on a

> 250m track. From a standing start they will be out of the saddle for around

> 200m then sit and continue to feel like power is being applied for the next

> 75 or so metres (just over one lap) then be unable to apply additional power

> for the final 220 or so metres. They report that they are 1. Not running out

> of puff, 2. Not spinning out, 2. Not grinding - gear doesn't feel too hard;

> but when they attempt to apply additional power from about 22s or 23s mark

> the " mind says go but the legs don't respond " and can only maintain the

> current speed and cadence to the finish. This typically occurs from 22s

> after the start to the end at around 40s.

> I suspect this is related to the depletion of glycogen levels after the

> initial effort but before the pain associated with the build up of " whatever

> it is that used to be called lactic acid " has been able to kick in properly.

> (those of us lucky enough to have to ride a third lap are fully aware of the

> discomfort that builds from about 35 sec to 60s)

> What is the likely cause and more importantly what suggestions are there to

> reduce this through training?

>

> Phil Bushell Melbourne Australia.

>

>

>