RE: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

[Guest guest]

I've never used steroids when powerlifting. I guess if I had used

steroids I would have won more bench press contests. I still train all three

disciplines: bench press, squat, deadlift, and other exercises. I've never

used steroids.

I have however over the past used a lot of creatine monohydrate form some

supplement company in California. I can't remember the name as I have

stopped using it for a long time now. I don't use it anymore because it does

nothing for me anymore and my doctor says that it can be harmful to the

liver and kidneys.

Is creatine monohydrate supplementation harmful to the body? What about

all the other supplements at the " health food " store. One time a local

supplement shop owner gave me some free andro/dhea mixture pills. I tried them

for one week. In two weeks my seated behind neck shoulder press went from

about 250 to 275 for a max and 225 for 5 reps to 225 for 8-10 reps. The

weight felt like it flew out of my hands.

There was a story of a local star high school football player here that

died from using ephedra (ma huang) and hormone combinations; supplements he

could get at any " health food " store.

Also, I know that the FDA has a hands off policy on supplements and doesn't

do a very good job regulating supplements.

Would you share your thoughts with me please?

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:09:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

ragiarn@... writes:

The following article might be of interest to some.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

*********************************************

December 10, 2009

Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With

Steroidshttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10steroids.html?_r=1 & pagewanted\

=print

By KATIE THOMAS Many competitive bodybuilders take anabolic steroids to

achieve their freakishly exaggerated physiques. That is no secret.

But steroids can be only one part of an extreme regimen that can wreak

havoc on the body.

Human growth hormone,

supplements, painkillers and diuretics can also be used to create the

“shrink-wrapped†muscles so prized in the aesthetic. And the high

concentration of muscle mass puts stress on the body, as if the lifter

were obese.

Lifting weights in the gym is “extremely healthy for you,†said

Wheeler, a former elite bodybuilder known as Flex. “But if you

want to be a bodybuilder and compete at the highest level, it has

nothing to do with health.†A relatively rare form of kidney disease

forced Wheeler to retire in 2003 at age 37, and he needed a kidney

transplant later that year.

Determining the extent of the damage that bodybuilders inflict on

themselves is difficult, in part because there is little interest in

financing studies on such an extreme group, and because bodybuilders

are not always honest about what they take. That is why a case study

published last month by a top kidney journal is generating interest in

the nephrology and bodybuilding communities. It is among the first to

assert a direct link between long-term steroid use and kidney disease.

The study began 10 years ago when a kidney pathologist at Columbia

University Medical Center in New York noticed that a bodybuilder had an

advanced

form of kidney

disease. Curious, she started looking for similar cases and eventually

studied 10 men with serious kidney damage who acknowledged using steroids.

Nine were bodybuilders and one was a competitive powerlifter with a

similar training routine.

All 10 men in the case series,

published in November by the Journal of the American Society of

Nephrology, showed damage to the filters of the kidney. Nine had an

irreversible disease known as focal segmental glomerulosclerosis — the

same disease contracted by Wheeler — even though the men in the

study did not have other apparent risk factors. Their disease was worse

than in obese patients with a higher body-mass index, suggesting that

steroids — combined with the other practices — might be harming the

kidneys.

Among the study’s most persuasive details is the story of a man, 30

years old at the time, who damaged his kidneys after more than a decade

of bodybuilding. The patient’s condition improved after he stopped

using the drugs, discontinued his regimen and lost 80 pounds. But it

worsened after the man, who became depressed, returned to bodybuilding

and steroids.

“These patients are likely the tip of the iceberg,†said Vivette D.

D’Agati, the lead researcher. “It’s a risk. A significant risk.â€

Several experts not affiliated with the study said that while the

claims were intriguing, the study’s value was limited because it

focused only on intensive steroid users and because the bodybuilders’

layered training practices had to be taken into account. “I think it’s

hard to be certain what’s causing their kidney disease,†said

Bremner, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of

Washington and an endocrinologist who studies steroids.

D’Agati said, “It’s probably multiple factors that are converging in

these patients, but the common entity in all of them is anabolic

steroids.â€

One participant in the study, Antonecchia, 46, competed in

powerlifting and strong man events for more than 25 years and said he

used steroids, supplements and a high-protein diet to attain feats such as

pulling a 40,000-pound truck.

He ended his career and stopped using steroids about a year ago, and in

February received a diagnosis of serious kidney damage. His doctors

warned him not to use the drugs again. “They said: ‘Pat. Don’t. Because

it comes back,’ †he said.

Antonecchia has lost about 50 pounds and said he misses the

attention his 290-pound frame attracted: “The toughest thing now is it

was my identity for 25 years. Now, when people see me, they say, ‘What

happened to you?’ â€

Jerry Brainum writes a column for Iron Man Magazine called

Bodybuilding Pharmacology and said he welcomes more research on the

subject. “I found it very alarming, quite frankly,†Brainum said.

Since the 1990s, at least eight accomplished bodybuilders have died at a

young age, and in addition to Wheeler, another six were

forced to stop competing because of serious illness, often involving

kidney disease.

The main source of information for bodybuilders

is word of mouth and experimentation, Brainum said. “These guys have no

guidance, they talk among themselves, and they don’t even tell the

truth to each other,†he said.

The risk-taking has been made worse by a trend toward ever larger

physiques among the sport’s top competitors, some said. Jay Cutler, who won

the

2009 Mr. Olympia contest, weighs almost 40 pounds more than Arnold

Schwarzenegger did when he won the title in 1974, even though Cutler is five

inches

shorter.

“Each decade you have a guy that comes along that sets new standards

and you say O.K., now I’m going to have to take it to the next level,â€

said Shahriar Kamali, a professional bodybuilder known as King.

The International Federation of Body Building and Fitness reserves

the right to test for steroids and human growth hormone at the

professional level, and testing is done on a random basis, said Bob

Cicherillo, athlete representative for the federation, which is the

main governing body for bodybuilding.

But several bodybuilders said the testing was nearly nonexistent,

and Cicherillo said he could not provide specific figures on

competitors who tested positive. In addition, the chairman of the

organization’s medical commission, M. Goldman, is a leading

champion of the anti-aging effects of human growth hormone, a drug that is

banned

by most sports governing bodies.

Manion, who runs the professional division of the federation, did

not return several calls seeking comment.

Some bodybuilders expressed doubt that their practices were

dangerous, pointing to former competitors who are still healthy in

their 70s. They attributed the deaths of elite bodybuilders to the

abuse of over-the-counter painkillers and diuretics, not steroids. The

bodybuilding federation tests for diuretics at professional events,

although competitors said they are still used.

Bodybuilders said that they were unfairly singled out as drug

abusers when athletes in most other sports were also using

performance-enhancing drugs. “Like anything else, it’s use and abuse,â€

Cicherillo said. “We’re the ones who are visual. We’re the ones who

walk around, and you see us with the big muscles.â€

Wheeler said he was convinced steroid use did not cause his kidney

disease, although it might have made it worse.

The patient whose case was the centerpiece of the kidney study said

he was most likely predisposed to develop the condition. “The drugs

weren’t the reason I got sick,†said the man, who declined to be

identified because his steroid use was illegal. After taking a year off

from steroids and bodybuilding because of the kidney disease, the man,

age 34, is returning to competition. His symptoms have worsened, a

sacrifice he said he is willing to accept.

“It’s just really hard to walk away from it,†he said. “I know I can

only do this until my early 40s, so I really want to give it my all

now.â€

------------------------------------

Modify/cancel your subscription at:

mygroups

Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

Hi Edwin

There have been many posts on the topic of supplements and specifically

creatine, if yo go through the archives they are there. The posted

information which refer to studies have shown that high protein diets do not

cause kidney failure, unless you have a preexisting condition. Creatine

does not cause kidney damage in the short term or long term. Some

supplement companies include anabolic agents without disclosing these on the

label to ensure that the product " works " and other companies may

accidentally mix some banned substances if they process these with poor

control and cleanliness. So make sure you know what you take.

I thought that DHEA is banned in WADA controlled tested federations?

My thoughts on the original post are mixed. The article is mixing up to

many factors and dragging non science into the equation.

The health benefits of training are a topic of conversation in the gym

business here in Johannesburg after the recent death of a well known body

builder and gym owner here in Johannesburg, who dropped dead during a leg

work out, the squats are being blamed? So here is my diatribe on the

issue. I'm not sure that the steroids alone are responsible for the kidney

failures, but the use of stimulants and insulin and HGH would

contribute. In addition some local bodybuilders take stimulates to be able

to train hard enough to get a pump and as the body adapts to the stimulus

they move up the chain of stimulants to include cocaine, these stimulants

may give the person the work out they are looking for, but they also

increase the blood pressure and heart beat well after the work out has ended

and if training twice a day they may never lower the BP or HR. They in

essence induce a state of hypertension due to stimulant consumption. In my

understanding hypertension is a significant contributor to renal failure.

The use of AAS has been linked in my understanding to increased arterial

sclerosis this along with elevated blood pressure and prolonged elevated

heart rate must contribute to the risk factors of early death of these

athletes. This drug use is not limited to body building and I would not be

surprised to see this type of issue in other power sport devotees.

Trying to rid sport of drug taking is an issue we will have for many years

to come.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2009/12/13 <efreem3407@...>

>

>

>

>

> I've never used steroids when powerlifting. I guess if I had used

> steroids I would have won more bench press contests. I still train all

> three

> disciplines: bench press, squat, deadlift, and other exercises. I've never

> used steroids.

>

> I have however over the past used a lot of creatine monohydrate form some

> supplement company in California. I can't remember the name as I have

> stopped using it for a long time now. I don't use it anymore because it

> does

> nothing for me anymore and my doctor says that it can be harmful to the

> liver and kidneys.

>

> Is creatine monohydrate supplementation harmful to the body? What about

> all the other supplements at the " health food " store. One time a local

> supplement shop owner gave me some free andro/dhea mixture pills. I tried

> them

> for one week. In two weeks my seated behind neck shoulder press went from

> about 250 to 275 for a max and 225 for 5 reps to 225 for 8-10 reps. The

> weight felt like it flew out of my hands.

>

> There was a story of a local star high school football player here that

> died from using ephedra (ma huang) and hormone combinations; supplements he

>

> could get at any " health food " store.

>

> Also, I know that the FDA has a hands off policy on supplements and doesn't

>

> do a very good job regulating supplements.

>

> Would you share your thoughts with me please?

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:09:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> ragiarn@... <ragiarn%40> writes:

>

> The following article might be of interest to some.

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

> *********************************************

>

> December 10, 2009

> Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With

>

>

Steroidshttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10steroids.html?_r=1 & pagewanted\

=print

>

> By KATIE THOMAS Many competitive bodybuilders take anabolic steroids to

> achieve their freakishly exaggerated physiques. That is no secret.

> But steroids can be only one part of an extreme regimen that can wreak

> havoc on the body.

> Human growth hormone,

> supplements, painkillers and diuretics can also be used to create the

> “shrink-wrapped” muscles so prized in the aesthetic. And the high

> concentration of muscle mass puts stress on the body, as if the lifter

> were obese.

> Lifting weights in the gym is “extremely healthy for you,” said

> Wheeler, a former elite bodybuilder known as Flex. “But if you

> want to be a bodybuilder and compete at the highest level, it has

> nothing to do with health.” A relatively rare form of kidney disease

> forced Wheeler to retire in 2003 at age 37, and he needed a kidney

> transplant later that year.

> Determining the extent of the damage that bodybuilders inflict on

> themselves is difficult, in part because there is little interest in

> financing studies on such an extreme group, and because bodybuilders

> are not always honest about what they take. That is why a case study

> published last month by a top kidney journal is generating interest in

> the nephrology and bodybuilding communities. It is among the first to

> assert a direct link between long-term steroid use and kidney disease.

> The study began 10 years ago when a kidney pathologist at Columbia

> University Medical Center in New York noticed that a bodybuilder had an

> advanced

> form of kidney

> disease. Curious, she started looking for similar cases and eventually

> studied 10 men with serious kidney damage who acknowledged using steroids.

> Nine were bodybuilders and one was a competitive powerlifter with a

> similar training routine.

> All 10 men in the case series,

> published in November by the Journal of the American Society of

> Nephrology, showed damage to the filters of the kidney. Nine had an

> irreversible disease known as focal segmental glomerulosclerosis — the

> same disease contracted by Wheeler — even though the men in the

> study did not have other apparent risk factors. Their disease was worse

> than in obese patients with a higher body-mass index, suggesting that

> steroids — combined with the other practices — might be harming the

> kidneys.

> Among the study’s most persuasive details is the story of a man, 30

> years old at the time, who damaged his kidneys after more than a decade

> of bodybuilding. The patient’s condition improved after he stopped

> using the drugs, discontinued his regimen and lost 80 pounds. But it

> worsened after the man, who became depressed, returned to bodybuilding

> and steroids.

> “These patients are likely the tip of the iceberg,” said Vivette D.

> D’Agati, the lead researcher. “It’s a risk. A significant risk.”

> Several experts not affiliated with the study said that while the

> claims were intriguing, the study’s value was limited because it

> focused only on intensive steroid users and because the bodybuilders’

> layered training practices had to be taken into account. “I think it’s

> hard to be certain what’s causing their kidney disease,” said

> Bremner, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of

> Washington and an endocrinologist who studies steroids.

> D’Agati said, “It’s probably multiple factors that are converging in

> these patients, but the common entity in all of them is anabolic

> steroids.”

> One participant in the study, Antonecchia, 46, competed in

> powerlifting and strong man events for more than 25 years and said he

> used steroids, supplements and a high-protein diet to attain feats such as

> pulling a 40,000-pound truck.

> He ended his career and stopped using steroids about a year ago, and in

> February received a diagnosis of serious kidney damage. His doctors

> warned him not to use the drugs again. “They said: ‘Pat. Don’t. Because

> it comes back,’ ” he said.

> Antonecchia has lost about 50 pounds and said he misses the

> attention his 290-pound frame attracted: “The toughest thing now is it

> was my identity for 25 years. Now, when people see me, they say, ‘What

> happened to you?’ ”

> Jerry Brainum writes a column for Iron Man Magazine called

> Bodybuilding Pharmacology and said he welcomes more research on the

> subject. “I found it very alarming, quite frankly,” Brainum said.

> Since the 1990s, at least eight accomplished bodybuilders have died at a

> young age, and in addition to Wheeler, another six were

> forced to stop competing because of serious illness, often involving

> kidney disease.

> The main source of information for bodybuilders

> is word of mouth and experimentation, Brainum said. “These guys have no

> guidance, they talk among themselves, and they don’t even tell the

> truth to each other,” he said.

> The risk-taking has been made worse by a trend toward ever larger

> physiques among the sport’s top competitors, some said. Jay Cutler, who won

> the

> 2009 Mr. Olympia contest, weighs almost 40 pounds more than Arnold

> Schwarzenegger did when he won the title in 1974, even though Cutler is

> five inches

> shorter.

> “Each decade you have a guy that comes along that sets new standards

> and you say O.K., now I’m going to have to take it to the next level,”

> said Shahriar Kamali, a professional bodybuilder known as King.

> The International Federation of Body Building and Fitness reserves

> the right to test for steroids and human growth hormone at the

> professional level, and testing is done on a random basis, said Bob

> Cicherillo, athlete representative for the federation, which is the

> main governing body for bodybuilding.

> But several bodybuilders said the testing was nearly nonexistent,

> and Cicherillo said he could not provide specific figures on

> competitors who tested positive. In addition, the chairman of the

> organization’s medical commission, M. Goldman, is a leading

> champion of the anti-aging effects of human growth hormone, a drug that is

> banned

> by most sports governing bodies.

> Manion, who runs the professional division of the federation, did

> not return several calls seeking comment.

> Some bodybuilders expressed doubt that their practices were

> dangerous, pointing to former competitors who are still healthy in

> their 70s. They attributed the deaths of elite bodybuilders to the

> abuse of over-the-counter painkillers and diuretics, not steroids. The

> bodybuilding federation tests for diuretics at professional events,

> although competitors said they are still used.

> Bodybuilders said that they were unfairly singled out as drug

> abusers when athletes in most other sports were also using

> performance-enhancing drugs. “Like anything else, it’s use and abuse,”

> Cicherillo said. “We’re the ones who are visual. We’re the ones who

> walk around, and you see us with the big muscles.”

> Wheeler said he was convinced steroid use did not cause his kidney

> disease, although it might have made it worse.

> The patient whose case was the centerpiece of the kidney study said

> he was most likely predisposed to develop the condition. “The drugs

> weren’t the reason I got sick,” said the man, who declined to be

> identified because his steroid use was illegal. After taking a year off

> from steroids and bodybuilding because of the kidney disease, the man,

> age 34, is returning to competition. His symptoms have worsened, a

> sacrifice he said he is willing to accept.

> “It’s just really hard to walk away from it,” he said. “I know I can

> only do this until my early 40s, so I really want to give it my all

> now.”

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> Modify/cancel your subscription at:

>

> mygroups

>

> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Edwin

There have been many posts on the topic of supplements and specifically

creatine, if yo go through the archives they are there. The posted

information which refer to studies have shown that high protein diets do not

cause kidney failure, unless you have a preexisting condition. Creatine

does not cause kidney damage in the short term or long term. Some

supplement companies include anabolic agents without disclosing these on the

label to ensure that the product " works " and other companies may

accidentally mix some banned substances if they process these with poor

control and cleanliness. So make sure you know what you take.

I thought that DHEA is banned in WADA controlled tested federations?

My thoughts on the original post are mixed. The article is mixing up to

many factors and dragging non science into the equation.

The health benefits of training are a topic of conversation in the gym

business here in Johannesburg after the recent death of a well known body

builder and gym owner here in Johannesburg, who dropped dead during a leg

work out, the squats are being blamed? So here is my diatribe on the

issue. I'm not sure that the steroids alone are responsible for the kidney

failures, but the use of stimulants and insulin and HGH would

contribute. In addition some local bodybuilders take stimulates to be able

to train hard enough to get a pump and as the body adapts to the stimulus

they move up the chain of stimulants to include cocaine, these stimulants

may give the person the work out they are looking for, but they also

increase the blood pressure and heart beat well after the work out has ended

and if training twice a day they may never lower the BP or HR. They in

essence induce a state of hypertension due to stimulant consumption. In my

understanding hypertension is a significant contributor to renal failure.

The use of AAS has been linked in my understanding to increased arterial

sclerosis this along with elevated blood pressure and prolonged elevated

heart rate must contribute to the risk factors of early death of these

athletes. This drug use is not limited to body building and I would not be

surprised to see this type of issue in other power sport devotees.

Trying to rid sport of drug taking is an issue we will have for many years

to come.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2009/12/13 <efreem3407@...>

>

>

>

>

> I've never used steroids when powerlifting. I guess if I had used

> steroids I would have won more bench press contests. I still train all

> three

> disciplines: bench press, squat, deadlift, and other exercises. I've never

> used steroids.

>

> I have however over the past used a lot of creatine monohydrate form some

> supplement company in California. I can't remember the name as I have

> stopped using it for a long time now. I don't use it anymore because it

> does

> nothing for me anymore and my doctor says that it can be harmful to the

> liver and kidneys.

>

> Is creatine monohydrate supplementation harmful to the body? What about

> all the other supplements at the " health food " store. One time a local

> supplement shop owner gave me some free andro/dhea mixture pills. I tried

> them

> for one week. In two weeks my seated behind neck shoulder press went from

> about 250 to 275 for a max and 225 for 5 reps to 225 for 8-10 reps. The

> weight felt like it flew out of my hands.

>

> There was a story of a local star high school football player here that

> died from using ephedra (ma huang) and hormone combinations; supplements he

>

> could get at any " health food " store.

>

> Also, I know that the FDA has a hands off policy on supplements and doesn't

>

> do a very good job regulating supplements.

>

> Would you share your thoughts with me please?

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:09:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> ragiarn@... <ragiarn%40> writes:

>

> The following article might be of interest to some.

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

> *********************************************

>

> December 10, 2009

> Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With

>

>

Steroidshttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10steroids.html?_r=1 & pagewanted\

=print

>

> By KATIE THOMAS Many competitive bodybuilders take anabolic steroids to

> achieve their freakishly exaggerated physiques. That is no secret.

> But steroids can be only one part of an extreme regimen that can wreak

> havoc on the body.

> Human growth hormone,

> supplements, painkillers and diuretics can also be used to create the

> “shrink-wrapped” muscles so prized in the aesthetic. And the high

> concentration of muscle mass puts stress on the body, as if the lifter

> were obese.

> Lifting weights in the gym is “extremely healthy for you,” said

> Wheeler, a former elite bodybuilder known as Flex. “But if you

> want to be a bodybuilder and compete at the highest level, it has

> nothing to do with health.” A relatively rare form of kidney disease

> forced Wheeler to retire in 2003 at age 37, and he needed a kidney

> transplant later that year.

> Determining the extent of the damage that bodybuilders inflict on

> themselves is difficult, in part because there is little interest in

> financing studies on such an extreme group, and because bodybuilders

> are not always honest about what they take. That is why a case study

> published last month by a top kidney journal is generating interest in

> the nephrology and bodybuilding communities. It is among the first to

> assert a direct link between long-term steroid use and kidney disease.

> The study began 10 years ago when a kidney pathologist at Columbia

> University Medical Center in New York noticed that a bodybuilder had an

> advanced

> form of kidney

> disease. Curious, she started looking for similar cases and eventually

> studied 10 men with serious kidney damage who acknowledged using steroids.

> Nine were bodybuilders and one was a competitive powerlifter with a

> similar training routine.

> All 10 men in the case series,

> published in November by the Journal of the American Society of

> Nephrology, showed damage to the filters of the kidney. Nine had an

> irreversible disease known as focal segmental glomerulosclerosis — the

> same disease contracted by Wheeler — even though the men in the

> study did not have other apparent risk factors. Their disease was worse

> than in obese patients with a higher body-mass index, suggesting that

> steroids — combined with the other practices — might be harming the

> kidneys.

> Among the study’s most persuasive details is the story of a man, 30

> years old at the time, who damaged his kidneys after more than a decade

> of bodybuilding. The patient’s condition improved after he stopped

> using the drugs, discontinued his regimen and lost 80 pounds. But it

> worsened after the man, who became depressed, returned to bodybuilding

> and steroids.

> “These patients are likely the tip of the iceberg,” said Vivette D.

> D’Agati, the lead researcher. “It’s a risk. A significant risk.”

> Several experts not affiliated with the study said that while the

> claims were intriguing, the study’s value was limited because it

> focused only on intensive steroid users and because the bodybuilders’

> layered training practices had to be taken into account. “I think it’s

> hard to be certain what’s causing their kidney disease,” said

> Bremner, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of

> Washington and an endocrinologist who studies steroids.

> D’Agati said, “It’s probably multiple factors that are converging in

> these patients, but the common entity in all of them is anabolic

> steroids.”

> One participant in the study, Antonecchia, 46, competed in

> powerlifting and strong man events for more than 25 years and said he

> used steroids, supplements and a high-protein diet to attain feats such as

> pulling a 40,000-pound truck.

> He ended his career and stopped using steroids about a year ago, and in

> February received a diagnosis of serious kidney damage. His doctors

> warned him not to use the drugs again. “They said: ‘Pat. Don’t. Because

> it comes back,’ ” he said.

> Antonecchia has lost about 50 pounds and said he misses the

> attention his 290-pound frame attracted: “The toughest thing now is it

> was my identity for 25 years. Now, when people see me, they say, ‘What

> happened to you?’ ”

> Jerry Brainum writes a column for Iron Man Magazine called

> Bodybuilding Pharmacology and said he welcomes more research on the

> subject. “I found it very alarming, quite frankly,” Brainum said.

> Since the 1990s, at least eight accomplished bodybuilders have died at a

> young age, and in addition to Wheeler, another six were

> forced to stop competing because of serious illness, often involving

> kidney disease.

> The main source of information for bodybuilders

> is word of mouth and experimentation, Brainum said. “These guys have no

> guidance, they talk among themselves, and they don’t even tell the

> truth to each other,” he said.

> The risk-taking has been made worse by a trend toward ever larger

> physiques among the sport’s top competitors, some said. Jay Cutler, who won

> the

> 2009 Mr. Olympia contest, weighs almost 40 pounds more than Arnold

> Schwarzenegger did when he won the title in 1974, even though Cutler is

> five inches

> shorter.

> “Each decade you have a guy that comes along that sets new standards

> and you say O.K., now I’m going to have to take it to the next level,”

> said Shahriar Kamali, a professional bodybuilder known as King.

> The International Federation of Body Building and Fitness reserves

> the right to test for steroids and human growth hormone at the

> professional level, and testing is done on a random basis, said Bob

> Cicherillo, athlete representative for the federation, which is the

> main governing body for bodybuilding.

> But several bodybuilders said the testing was nearly nonexistent,

> and Cicherillo said he could not provide specific figures on

> competitors who tested positive. In addition, the chairman of the

> organization’s medical commission, M. Goldman, is a leading

> champion of the anti-aging effects of human growth hormone, a drug that is

> banned

> by most sports governing bodies.

> Manion, who runs the professional division of the federation, did

> not return several calls seeking comment.

> Some bodybuilders expressed doubt that their practices were

> dangerous, pointing to former competitors who are still healthy in

> their 70s. They attributed the deaths of elite bodybuilders to the

> abuse of over-the-counter painkillers and diuretics, not steroids. The

> bodybuilding federation tests for diuretics at professional events,

> although competitors said they are still used.

> Bodybuilders said that they were unfairly singled out as drug

> abusers when athletes in most other sports were also using

> performance-enhancing drugs. “Like anything else, it’s use and abuse,”

> Cicherillo said. “We’re the ones who are visual. We’re the ones who

> walk around, and you see us with the big muscles.”

> Wheeler said he was convinced steroid use did not cause his kidney

> disease, although it might have made it worse.

> The patient whose case was the centerpiece of the kidney study said

> he was most likely predisposed to develop the condition. “The drugs

> weren’t the reason I got sick,” said the man, who declined to be

> identified because his steroid use was illegal. After taking a year off

> from steroids and bodybuilding because of the kidney disease, the man,

> age 34, is returning to competition. His symptoms have worsened, a

> sacrifice he said he is willing to accept.

> “It’s just really hard to walk away from it,” he said. “I know I can

> only do this until my early 40s, so I really want to give it my all

> now.”

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> Modify/cancel your subscription at:

>

> mygroups

>

> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I used the Andro/DHEA supplement it was months before the scheduled

bench press meet. And since I'm drug free I didn't have much experience

with it. My goal was to get strong first then compete in a bench press meet.

My goal was a 450 lbs./205 Kg. bench press at 220 lbs./100 Kg. bodyweight.

This was back in 1997. (By the way, because I am only 5 feet 7; I had to

eat like crazy just to maintain 220 lbs. drug free.)

I did some research and found the product that I was using back in

1996-1998. _http://www.jarrow.com/product/344/Creatine_Monohydrate_

(http://www.jarrow.com/product/344/Creatine_Monohydrate) This was the only

creatine to

give me such amazing strength gains at that time. I tried about 5 or 10

different companies and every company but this one sucked rocks. I know

nothing about the company Jarrow Formulas.

The only supplements I take right now are a multiple vitamin/mineral,

glucosamine/chondroitin, a calcium supplement, and soy protein powder. I still

train hard and lift as heavy as I can.

Edwin Freeman, Jr

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 12/18/2009 7:18:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

nick.tatalias@... writes:

Hi Edwin

There have been many posts on the topic of supplements and specifically

creatine, if yo go through the archives they are there. The posted

information which refer to studies have shown that high protein diets do

not

cause kidney failure, unless you have a preexisting condition. Creatine

does not cause kidney damage in the short term or long term. Some

supplement companies include anabolic agents without disclosing these on

the

label to ensure that the product " works " and other companies may

accidentally mix some banned substances if they process these with poor

control and cleanliness. So make sure you know what you take.

I thought that DHEA is banned in WADA controlled tested federations?

My thoughts on the original post are mixed. The article is mixing up to

many factors and dragging non science into the equation.

The health benefits of training are a topic of conversation in the gym

business here in Johannesburg after the recent death of a well known body

builder and gym owner here in Johannesburg, who dropped dead during a leg

work out, the squats are being blamed? So here is my diatribe on the

issue. I'm not sure that the steroids alone are responsible for the kidney

failures, but the use of stimulants and insulin and HGH would

contribute. In addition some local bodybuilders take stimulates to be able

to train hard enough to get a pump and as the body adapts to the stimulus

they move up the chain of stimulants to include cocaine, these stimulants

may give the person the work out they are looking for, but they also

increase the blood pressure and heart beat well after the work out has

ended

and if training twice a day they may never lower the BP or HR. They in

essence induce a state of hypertension due to stimulant consumption. In my

understanding hypertension is a significant contributor to renal failure.

The use of AAS has been linked in my understanding to increased arterial

sclerosis this along with elevated blood pressure and prolonged elevated

heart rate must contribute to the risk factors of early death of these

athletes. This drug use is not limited to body building and I would not be

surprised to see this type of issue in other power sport devotees.

Trying to rid sport of drug taking is an issue we will have for many years

to come.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2009/12/13 <efreem3407@...>

>

>

>

>

> I've never used steroids when powerlifting. I guess if I had used

> steroids I would have won more bench press contests. I still train all

> three

> disciplines: bench press, squat, deadlift, and other exercises. I've

never

> used steroids.

>

> I have however over the past used a lot of creatine monohydrate form some

> supplement company in California. I can't remember the name as I have

> stopped using it for a long time now. I don't use it anymore because it

> does

> nothing for me anymore and my doctor says that it can be harmful to the

> liver and kidneys.

>

> Is creatine monohydrate supplementation harmful to the body? What about

> all the other supplements at the " health food " store. One time a local

> supplement shop owner gave me some free andro/dhea mixture pills. I tried

> them

> for one week. In two weeks my seated behind neck shoulder press went from

> about 250 to 275 for a max and 225 for 5 reps to 225 for 8-10 reps. The

> weight felt like it flew out of my hands.

>

> There was a story of a local star high school football player here that

> died from using ephedra (ma huang) and hormone combinations; supplements

he

>

> could get at any " health food " store.

>

> Also, I know that the FDA has a hands off policy on supplements and

doesn't

>

> do a very good job regulating supplements.

>

> Would you share your thoughts with me please?

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:09:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> ragiarn@... <ragiarn%40> writes:

>

> The following article might be of interest to some.

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

> *********************************************

>

> December 10, 2009

> Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With

>

>

Steroidshttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10steroids.html?_r=1 & pagewanted\

=print

>

> By KATIE THOMAS Many competitive bodybuilders take anabolic steroids to

> achieve their freakishly exaggerated physiques. That is no secret.

> But steroids can be only one part of an extreme regimen that can wreak

> havoc on the body.

> Human growth hormone,

> supplements, painkillers and diuretics can also be used to create the

> “shrink-wrapped†muscles so prized in the aesthetic. And the high

> concentration of muscle mass puts stress on the body, as if the lifter

> were obese.

> Lifting weights in the gym is “extremely healthy for you,†said

> Wheeler, a former elite bodybuilder known as Flex. “But if you

> want to be a bodybuilder and compete at the highest level, it has

> nothing to do with health.†A relatively rare form of kidney disease

> forced Wheeler to retire in 2003 at age 37, and he needed a kidney

> transplant later that year.

> Determining the extent of the damage that bodybuilders inflict on

> themselves is difficult, in part because there is little interest in

> financing studies on such an extreme group, and because bodybuilders

> are not always honest about what they take. That is why a case study

> published last month by a top kidney journal is generating interest in

> the nephrology and bodybuilding communities. It is among the first to

> assert a direct link between long-term steroid use and kidney disease.

> The study began 10 years ago when a kidney pathologist at Columbia

> University Medical Center in New York noticed that a bodybuilder had an

> advanced

> form of kidney

> disease. Curious, she started looking for similar cases and eventually

> studied 10 men with serious kidney damage who acknowledged using

steroids.

> Nine were bodybuilders and one was a competitive powerlifter with a

> similar training routine.

> All 10 men in the case series,

> published in November by the Journal of the American Society of

> Nephrology, showed damage to the filters of the kidney. Nine had an

> irreversible disease known as focal segmental glomerulosclerosis — the

> same disease contracted by Wheeler — even though the men in the

> study did not have other apparent risk factors. Their disease was worse

> than in obese patients with a higher body-mass index, suggesting that

> steroids — combined with the other practices — might be harming the

> kidneys.

> Among the study’s most persuasive details is the story of a man, 30

> years old at the time, who damaged his kidneys after more than a decade

> of bodybuilding. The patient’s condition improved after he stopped

> using the drugs, discontinued his regimen and lost 80 pounds. But it

> worsened after the man, who became depressed, returned to bodybuilding

> and steroids.

> “These patients are likely the tip of the iceberg,†said Vivette D.

> D’Agati, the lead researcher. “It’s a risk. A significant risk.â€

> Several experts not affiliated with the study said that while the

> claims were intriguing, the study’s value was limited because it

> focused only on intensive steroid users and because the bodybuilders’

> layered training practices had to be taken into account. “I think it’s

> hard to be certain what’s causing their kidney disease,†said

> Bremner, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of

> Washington and an endocrinologist who studies steroids.

> D’Agati said, “It’s probably multiple factors that are converging in

> these patients, but the common entity in all of them is anabolic

> steroids.â€

> One participant in the study, Antonecchia, 46, competed in

> powerlifting and strong man events for more than 25 years and said he

> used steroids, supplements and a high-protein diet to attain feats such

as

> pulling a 40,000-pound truck.

> He ended his career and stopped using steroids about a year ago, and in

> February received a diagnosis of serious kidney damage. His doctors

> warned him not to use the drugs again. “They said: ‘Pat. Don’t. Because

> it comes back,’ †he said.

> Antonecchia has lost about 50 pounds and said he misses the

> attention his 290-pound frame attracted: “The toughest thing now is it

> was my identity for 25 years. Now, when people see me, they say, ‘What

> happened to you?’ â€

> Jerry Brainum writes a column for Iron Man Magazine called

> Bodybuilding Pharmacology and said he welcomes more research on the

> subject. “I found it very alarming, quite frankly,†Brainum said.

> Since the 1990s, at least eight accomplished bodybuilders have died at a

> young age, and in addition to Wheeler, another six were

> forced to stop competing because of serious illness, often involving

> kidney disease.

> The main source of information for bodybuilders

> is word of mouth and experimentation, Brainum said. “These guys have no

> guidance, they talk among themselves, and they don’t even tell the

> truth to each other,†he said.

> The risk-taking has been made worse by a trend toward ever larger

> physiques among the sport’s top competitors, some said. Jay Cutler, who

won

> the

> 2009 Mr. Olympia contest, weighs almost 40 pounds more than Arnold

> Schwarzenegger did when he won the title in 1974, even though Cutler is

> five inches

> shorter.

> “Each decade you have a guy that comes along that sets new standards

> and you say O.K., now I’m going to have to take it to the next level,â€

> said Shahriar Kamali, a professional bodybuilder known as King.

> The International Federation of Body Building and Fitness reserves

> the right to test for steroids and human growth hormone at the

> professional level, and testing is done on a random basis, said Bob

> Cicherillo, athlete representative for the federation, which is the

> main governing body for bodybuilding.

> But several bodybuilders said the testing was nearly nonexistent,

> and Cicherillo said he could not provide specific figures on

> competitors who tested positive. In addition, the chairman of the

> organization’s medical commission, M. Goldman, is a leading

> champion of the anti-aging effects of human growth hormone, a drug that

is

> banned

> by most sports governing bodies.

> Manion, who runs the professional division of the federation, did

> not return several calls seeking comment.

> Some bodybuilders expressed doubt that their practices were

> dangerous, pointing to former competitors who are still healthy in

> their 70s. They attributed the deaths of elite bodybuilders to the

> abuse of over-the-counter painkillers and diuretics, not steroids. The

> bodybuilding federation tests for diuretics at professional events,

> although competitors said they are still used.

> Bodybuilders said that they were unfairly singled out as drug

> abusers when athletes in most other sports were also using

> performance-enhancing drugs. “Like anything else, it’s use and abuse,â€

> Cicherillo said. “We’re the ones who are visual. We’re the ones who

> walk around, and you see us with the big muscles.â€

> Wheeler said he was convinced steroid use did not cause his kidney

> disease, although it might have made it worse.

> The patient whose case was the centerpiece of the kidney study said

> he was most likely predisposed to develop the condition. “The drugs

> weren’t the reason I got sick,†said the man, who declined to be

> identified because his steroid use was illegal. After taking a year off

> from steroids and bodybuilding because of the kidney disease, the man,

> age 34, is returning to competition. His symptoms have worsened, a

> sacrifice he said he is willing to accept.

> “It’s just really hard to walk away from it,†he said. “I know I can

> only do this until my early 40s, so I really want to give it my all

> now.â€

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> Modify/cancel your subscription at:

>

> mygroups

>

> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nick,

Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

Kenny Croxdale

Orange, CA

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Edwin

There have been many posts on the topic of supplements and specifically

reatine, if yo go through the archives they are there. The posted

nformation which refer to studies have shown that high protein diets do not

ause kidney failure, unless you have a preexisting condition. Creatine

oes not cause kidney damage in the short term or long term. Some

upplement companies include anabolic agents without disclosing these on the

abel to ensure that the product " works " and other companies may

ccidentally mix some banned substances if they process these with poor

ontrol and cleanliness. So make sure you know what you take.

I thought that DHEA is banned in WADA controlled tested federations?

My thoughts on the original post are mixed. The article is mixing up to

any factors and dragging non science into the equation.

The health benefits of training are a topic of conversation in the gym

usiness here in Johannesburg after the recent death of a well known body

uilder and gym owner here in Johannesburg, who dropped dead during a leg

ork out, the squats are being blamed? So here is my diatribe on the

ssue. I'm not sure that the steroids alone are responsible for the kidney

ailures, but the use of stimulants and insulin and HGH would

ontribute. In addition some local bodybuilders take stimulates to be able

o train hard enough to get a pump and as the body adapts to the stimulus

hey move up the chain of stimulants to include cocaine, these stimulants

ay give the person the work out they are looking for, but they also

ncrease the blood pressure and heart beat well after the work out has ended

nd if training twice a day they may never lower the BP or HR. They in

ssence induce a state of hypertension due to stimulant consumption. In my

nderstanding hypertension is a significant contributor to renal failure.

he use of AAS has been linked in my understanding to increased arterial

clerosis this along with elevated blood pressure and prolonged elevated

eart rate must contribute to the risk factors of early death of these

thletes. This drug use is not limited to body building and I would not be

urprised to see this type of issue in other power sport devotees.

Trying to rid sport of drug taking is an issue we will have for many years

o come.

Regards

ick Tatalias

ohannesburg

outh Africa

2009/12/13 <efreem3407@...>

>

I've never used steroids when powerlifting. I guess if I had used

steroids I would have won more bench press contests. I still train all

three

disciplines: bench press, squat, deadlift, and other exercises. I've never

used steroids.

I have however over the past used a lot of creatine monohydrate form some

supplement company in California. I can't remember the name as I have

stopped using it for a long time now. I don't use it anymore because it

does

nothing for me anymore and my doctor says that it can be harmful to the

liver and kidneys.

Is creatine monohydrate supplementation harmful to the body? What about

all the other supplements at the " health food " store. One time a local

supplement shop owner gave me some free andro/dhea mixture pills. I tried

them

for one week. In two weeks my seated behind neck shoulder press went from

about 250 to 275 for a max and 225 for 5 reps to 225 for 8-10 reps. The

weight felt like it flew out of my hands.

There was a story of a local star high school football player here that

died from using ephedra (ma huang) and hormone combinations; supplements he

could get at any " health food " store.

Also, I know that the FDA has a hands off policy on supplements and doesn't

do a very good job regulating supplements.

Would you share your thoughts with me please?

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:09:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

ragiarn@... <ragiarn%40> writes:

The following article might be of interest to some.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

*********************************************

December 10, 2009

Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With

Steroidshttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/sports/10steroids.html?_r=1 & pagewanted\

=print

By KATIE THOMAS Many competitive bodybuilders take anabolic steroids to

achieve their freakishly exaggerated physiques. That is no secret.

But steroids can be only one part of an extreme regimen that can wreak

havoc on the body.

Human growth hormone,

supplements, painkillers and diuretics can also be used to create the

“shrink-wrapped†muscles so prized in the aesthetic. And the high

concentration of muscle mass puts stress on the body, as if the lifter

were obese.

Lifting weights in the gym is “extremely healthy for you,†said

Wheeler, a former elite bodybuilder known as Flex. “But if you

want to be a bodybuilder and compete at the highest level, it has

nothing to do with health.†A relatively rare form of kidney disease

forced Wheeler to retire in 2003 at age 37, and he needed a kidney

transplant later that year.

Determining the extent of the damage that bodybuilders inflict on

themselves is difficult, in part because there is little interest in

financing studies on such an extreme group, and because bodybuilders

are not always honest about what they take. That is why a case study

published last month by a top kidney journal is generating interest in

the nephrology and bodybuilding communities. It is among the first to

assert a direct link between long-term steroid use and kidney disease.

The study began 10 years ago when a kidney pathologist at Columbia

University Medical Center in New York noticed that a bodybuilder had an

advanced

form of kidney

disease. Curious, she started looking for similar cases and eventually

studied 10 men with serious kidney damage who acknowledged using steroids.

Nine were bodybuilders and one was a competitive powerlifter with a

similar training routine.

All 10 men in the case series,

published in November by the Journal of the American Society of

Nephrology, showed damage to the filters of the kidney. Nine had an

irreversible disease known as focal segmental glomerulosclerosis — the

same disease contracted by Wheeler — even though the men in the

study did not have other apparent risk factors. Their disease was worse

than in obese patients with a higher body-mass index, suggesting that

steroids — combined with the other practices — might be harming the

kidneys.

Among the study’s most persuasive details is the story of a man, 30

years old at the time, who damaged his kidneys after more than a decade

of bodybuilding. The patient’s condition improved after he stopped

using the drugs, discontinued his regimen and lost 80 pounds. But it

worsened after the man, who became depressed, returned to bodybuilding

and steroids.

“These patients are likely the tip of the iceberg,†said Vivette D.

D’Agati, the lead researcher. “It’s a risk. A significant risk.â€

Several experts not affiliated with the study said that while the

claims were intriguing, the study’s value was limited because it

focused only on intensive steroid users and because the bodybuilders’

layered training practices had to be taken into account. “I think it’s

hard to be certain what’s causing their kidney disease,†said

Bremner, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of

Washington and an endocrinologist who studies steroids.

D’Agati said, “It’s probably multiple factors that are converging in

these patients, but the common entity in all of them is anabolic

steroids.â€

One participant in the study, Antonecchia, 46, competed in

powerlifting and strong man events for more than 25 years and said he

used steroids, supplements and a high-protein diet to attain feats such as

pulling a 40,000-pound truck.

He ended his career and stopped using steroids about a year ago, and in

February received a diagnosis of serious kidney damage. His doctors

warned him not to use the drugs again. “They said: ‘Pat. Don’t. Because

it comes back,’ †he said.

Antonecchia has lost about 50 pounds and said he misses the

attention his 290-pound frame attracted: “The toughest thing now is it

was my identity for 25 years. Now, when people see me, they say, ‘What

happened to you?’ â€

Jerry Brainum writes a column for Iron Man Magazine called

Bodybuilding Pharmacology and said he welcomes more research on the

subject. “I found it very alarming, quite frankly,†Brainum said.

Since the 1990s, at least eight accomplished bodybuilders have died at a

young age, and in addition to Wheeler, another six were

forced to stop competing because of serious illness, often involving

kidney disease.

The main source of information for bodybuilders

is word of mouth and experimentation, Brainum said. “These guys have no

guidance, they talk among themselves, and they don’t even tell the

truth to each other,†he said.

The risk-taking has been made worse by a trend toward ever larger

physiques among the sport’s top competitors, some said. Jay Cutler, who won

the

2009 Mr. Olympia contest, weighs almost 40 pounds more than Arnold

Schwarzenegger did when he won the title in 1974, even though Cutler is

five inches

shorter.

“Each decade you have a guy that comes along that sets new standards

and you say O.K., now I’m going to have to take it to the next level,â€

said Shahriar Kamali, a professional bodybuilder known as King.

The International Federation of Body Building and Fitness reserves

the right to test for steroids and human growth hormone at the

professional level, and testing is done on a random basis, said Bob

Cicherillo, athlete representative for the federation, which is the

main governing body for bodybuilding.

But several bodybuilders said the testing was nearly nonexistent,

and Cicherillo said he could not provide specific figures on

competitors who tested positive. In addition, the chairman of the

organization’s medical commission, M. Goldman, is a leading

champion of the anti-aging effects of human growth hormone, a drug that is

banned

by most sports governing bodies.

Manion, who runs the professional division of the federation, did

not return several calls seeking comment.

Some bodybuilders expressed doubt that their practices were

dangerous, pointing to former competitors who are still healthy in

their 70s. They attributed the deaths of elite bodybuilders to the

abuse of over-the-counter painkillers and diuretics, not steroids. The

bodybuilding federation tests for diuretics at professional events,

although competitors said they are still used.

Bodybuilders said that they were unfairly singled out as drug

abusers when athletes in most other sports were also using

performance-enhancing drugs. “Like anything else, it’s use and abuse,â€

Cicherillo said. “We’re the ones who are visual. We’re the ones who

walk around, and you see us with the big muscles.â€

Wheeler said he was convinced steroid use did not cause his kidney

disease, although it might have made it worse.

The patient whose case was the centerpiece of the kidney study said

he was most likely predisposed to develop the condition. “The drugs

weren’t the reason I got sick,†said the man, who declined to be

identified because his steroid use was illegal. After taking a year off

from steroids and bodybuilding because of the kidney disease, the man,

age 34, is returning to competition. His symptoms have worsened, a

sacrifice he said he is willing to accept.

“It’s just really hard to walk away from it,†he said. “I know I can

only do this until my early 40s, so I really want to give it my all

now.â€

------------------------------------

Modify/cancel your subscription at:

mygroups

Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

There are a pile of bodies they just don't make the pages of muscle magazines,

they only make the obituaries of their local papers.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

________________________________

From: " KennyCrox@... " <KennyCrox@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 11:51:55 AM

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Nick,

Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

=============================

[Guest guest]

Hey Todd,

Glad you got a laugh out of it.

Unfortunately, I am a memeber in good standing of the " Stupid Club " .

In working with others I often comment that my expertise is in " Here what NOT to

do. "

Kenny Croxdale

Orange, CA

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Edwin

There have been many posts on the topic of supplements and specifically

reatine, if yo go through the archives they are there. The posted

nformation which refer to studies have shown that high protein diets do not

ause kidney failure, unless you have a preexisting condition. Creatine

oes not cause kidney damage in the short term or long term. Some

upplement companies include anabolic agents without disclosing these on the

abel to ensure that the product " works " and other companies may

ccidentally mix some banned substances if they process these with poor

ontrol and cleanliness. So make sure you know what you take.

I thought that DHEA is banned in WADA controlled tested federations?

My thoughts on the original post are mixed. The article is mixing up to

any factors and dragging non science into the equation.

The health benefits of training are a topic of conversation in the gym

usiness here in Johannesburg after the recent death of a well known body

uilder and gym owner here in Johannesburg, who dropped dead during a leg

ork out, the squats are being blamed? So here is my diatribe on the

ssue. I'm not sure that the steroids alone are responsible for the kidney

ailures, but the use of stimulants and insulin and HGH would

ontribute. In addition some local bodybuilders take stimulates to be able

o train hard enough to get a pump and as the body adapts to the stimulus

hey move up the chain of stimulants to include cocaine, these stimulants

ay give the person the work out they are looking for, but they also

ncrease the blood pressure and heart beat well after the work out has ended

nd if training twice a day they may never lower the BP or HR. They in

ssence induce a state of hypertension due to stimulant consumption. In my

nderstanding hypertension is a significant contributor to renal failure.

he use of AAS has been linked in my understanding to increased arterial

clerosis this along with elevated blood pressure and prolonged elevated

eart rate must contribute to the risk factors of early death of these

thletes. This drug use is not limited to body building and I would not be

urprised to see this type of issue in other power sport devotees.

Trying to rid sport of drug taking is an issue we will have for many years

o come.

Regards

ick Tatalias

ohannesburg

outh Africa

2009/12/13 <efreem3407aol (DOT) <mailto:efreem3407%40aol.com> com>

>

I've never used steroids when powerlifting. I guess if I had used

steroids I would have won more bench press contests. I still train all

three

disciplines: bench press, squat, deadlift, and other exercises. I've never

used steroids.

I have however over the past used a lot of creatine monohydrate form some

supplement company in California. I can't remember the name as I have

stopped using it for a long time now. I don't use it anymore because it

does

nothing for me anymore and my doctor says that it can be harmful to the

liver and kidneys.

Is creatine monohydrate supplementation harmful to the body? What about

all the other supplements at the " health food " store. One time a local

supplement shop owner gave me some free andro/dhea mixture pills. I tried

them

for one week. In two weeks my seated behind neck shoulder press went from

about 250 to 275 for a max and 225 for 5 reps to 225 for 8-10 reps. The

weight felt like it flew out of my hands.

There was a story of a local star high school football player here that

died from using ephedra (ma huang) and hormone combinations; supplements he

could get at any " health food " store.

Also, I know that the FDA has a hands off policy on supplements and doesn't

do a very good job regulating supplements.

Would you share your thoughts with me please?

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:09:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

ragiarn (DOT) <mailto:ragiarn%40> com <ragiarn%40>

writes:

The following article might be of interest to some.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

*********************************************

[Guest guest]

If you can make a rational argument that the cause is directly correlated to

their usage of AAS rather than:

•Lifestyle choices

•Alcohol-Ciggarettes-Rec Drug use

•Poor Nutrition

I will be amazed.

People die all on the regular for a multitude of reasons.

As Kenny stated succinctly the first time, show me the " pile of bodies " who die

from their direct using/abusing of AAS.

Jay

Pasadena, CA

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Nick,

Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

=============================

[Guest guest]

As a bodybuilder, I have to chime in here. I can definitely agree that in any

sport, there are drugs involved. It is pretty evident from all the congressional

hearings and witch hunts that have been going on to to catch those that have

been using various AAS they could get their hands on.  There are people in

competitive bodybuilding, football, baseball, track (the olympics), cycle (tour

de France) and other sports that have been caught using AAS or other things

such as doping in order to enhance performance in various sports, but regardless

of why someone uses it and what they use, it all goes back to misinformation and

stupidity.  Keep in mind, BALCO was providing performance enhancing products to

all types of athletes, regardless of what they were doing.  And for those that

are really in the know, the average person who doesn't compete in bodybuilding,

doesn't play pro football or baseball, doesn't compete in the Olympics and

doesn't do anything

but go to the gym and workout is using AAS.  There are doctors using it,

police officers using it, and other professionals who just want the results that

come from it using it.  One of the biggest clientele I had when I had my

nutrition store were people who used AAS and wanted to know what they could take

in order to acquire similar results or maintain what they had acquired.  My

response was always that they should consult their physician, but through

research, there were options I could suggest in the way of over the counter

supplements.

This does not by any means suggest that it is okay to use AAS, but the bottom

line is you can implement anything you want to control it, but just like any

drug out there, it is going to be out there. Not to mention, they didn't become

banned until the 70's.  I'm not sure if my post is out of context or not, as I

haven't exactly been following this thread, but I definitely felt like adding my

two cents.  I will agree with what Mark says about the addition of

complications that can show up if people have issues already and add AAS into

the mix.  But when it comes down to it, if you aren't training, or training

properly, it doesn't matter what you are doing.  And last, I guess I should go

back and read the initial post. Thanks for listening!! And take care.

McGrue

Fremont, CA

________________________________

From: Mark Cotton <mark@...>

supertraining

Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 11:51:00 AM

Subject: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

 

I absolutely agree with Ralph. Alot of these deaths are under the radar as

bodybuilding is not a mainstream sport. The other item that bothers me is the

fact that Baseball Players sat in front of a congressional inquiry, but

bodybuilding and powerlifting (not all groups and federations of course as some

do really try to encourage unaided athletes) are not under the microscope

because they are not mainstream sports.

 

You see people, if you are close enough to these sports, get ill, wait for

kidney transplants or have a variety of health problems. You hear totally lame

excuses such as, the need to dehydrate, high protein diets, etc. These may not

be the best things to do to your body, but if you add in AAS to the equation I

can't help, but feel that the impact on overall health changes dramatically.

 

Back in the 1960's the type of and amount of AAS used can't compare to today.

The AAS cycles used today are ridiculously high. Bodybuilders lie about it. To

each other and everyone else. Then they lie about their health issues.

 

Mark Cotton

New Jersey, USA

Extreme Conditioning Personal Training

Mark Cotton, B.A., PICP & ISSA Certified

(732) 979-7201

www.extremeconditio ning.com

http://us.cpoliquin.com/?Click=23

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn (DOT) com>

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Supertraining

Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 1:02 PM

 

There are a pile of bodies they just don't make the pages of muscle magazines,

they only make the obituaries of their local papers.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

____________ _________ _________ __

From: " KennyCroxaol (DOT) com " <KennyCroxaol (DOT) com>

Supertraining

Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 11:51:55 AM

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Nick,

Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

============ ========= ========

[Guest guest]

Okay, I'm sure that by the time I respond to this, someone may have already

responded to what I said. So I guess I should have read the original post first,

so my apologies for the premature email. However, there are some very valid

points made in all of these responses, and from my experience as a nutrition

store owner and talking to people who compete in bodybuilding and just work out

in general, I really do believe that there are many factors that play a role in

any disease someone might contract of be found to have.  One of the worst cases

I've heard of was a 19 year old kid who told me he used to take a few different

steroids and now could not get an erection without using steroids. After talking

to him a little more, and finding out what this kid did and how long he was

doing it, I told him that he really needs to go see and endocrinologist. So

it's not just liver issues that can be seen, there are other issues that can

spring up.  I still

believe that the key thing is knowledge though.  And as mentioned in a prior

thread, whether it is AAS or other means to enhance performance, you are going

to see it in the world of sports, and you will also see it with the average joe,

if anyone starts looking into it at that level.

Okay, that is the other cent to my two cents.

McGrue

Fremont, CA

www.fit2start.com

 

________________________________

From: " efreem3407@... " <efreem3407@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 10:31:20 AM

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

 

When I used the Andro/DHEA supplement it was months before the scheduled

bench press meet. And since I'm drug free I didn't have much experience

with it. My goal was to get strong first then compete in a bench press meet.

My goal was a 450 lbs./205 Kg. bench press at 220 lbs./100 Kg. bodyweight.

This was back in 1997. (By the way, because I am only 5 feet 7; I had to

eat like crazy just to maintain 220 lbs. drug free.)

I did some research and found the product that I was using back in

1996-1998. _http://www.jarrow. com/product/ 344/Creatine_ Monohydrate_

(http://www.jarrow. com/product/ 344/Creatine_ Monohydrate) This was the only

creatine to

give me such amazing strength gains at that time. I tried about 5 or 10

different companies and every company but this one sucked rocks. I know

nothing about the company Jarrow Formulas.

The only supplements I take right now are a multiple vitamin/mineral,

glucosamine/ chondroitin, a calcium supplement, and soy protein powder. I still

train hard and lift as heavy as I can.

Edwin Freeman, Jr

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 12/18/2009 7:18:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

nick.tatalias@ gmail.com writes:

Hi Edwin

There have been many posts on the topic of supplements and specifically

creatine, if yo go through the archives they are there. The posted

information which refer to studies have shown that high protein diets do

not

cause kidney failure, unless you have a preexisting condition. Creatine

does not cause kidney damage in the short term or long term. Some

supplement companies include anabolic agents without disclosing these on

the

label to ensure that the product " works " and other companies may

accidentally mix some banned substances if they process these with poor

control and cleanliness. So make sure you know what you take.

I thought that DHEA is banned in WADA controlled tested federations?

My thoughts on the original post are mixed. The article is mixing up to

many factors and dragging non science into the equation.

The health benefits of training are a topic of conversation in the gym

business here in Johannesburg after the recent death of a well known body

builder and gym owner here in Johannesburg, who dropped dead during a leg

work out, the squats are being blamed? So here is my diatribe on the

issue. I'm not sure that the steroids alone are responsible for the kidney

failures, but the use of stimulants and insulin and HGH would

contribute. In addition some local bodybuilders take stimulates to be able

to train hard enough to get a pump and as the body adapts to the stimulus

they move up the chain of stimulants to include cocaine, these stimulants

may give the person the work out they are looking for, but they also

increase the blood pressure and heart beat well after the work out has

ended

and if training twice a day they may never lower the BP or HR. They in

essence induce a state of hypertension due to stimulant consumption. In my

understanding hypertension is a significant contributor to renal failure.

The use of AAS has been linked in my understanding to increased arterial

sclerosis this along with elevated blood pressure and prolonged elevated

heart rate must contribute to the risk factors of early death of these

athletes. This drug use is not limited to body building and I would not be

surprised to see this type of issue in other power sport devotees.

Trying to rid sport of drug taking is an issue we will have for many years

to come.

=============================

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Lying began in the Garden of Eden with the apple. So, lying has been around for

awhile and will go on forever.

I suspect that today athletes use a lot more today and yesterday.

Steriods are not the villian they've been protrayed to be. It comes down to how

they are used or abused.

This brings us back the stupid people issue.

Kenny Croxdale

Orange, CA

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Nick,

Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

============ ========= ========

[Guest guest]

Kenny-

 

I will agree with a couple of points you make. The first, is the lying issue. No

doubt that Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were the first disfunctional family and

lying was at the center of it all. And the second is that AAS are not the

villian. The abuse of the drugs to be better than your opponent or using them

when it is a rule violation is the real issue.

 

AAS may not be dangerous if used properly (whatever that means. I suppose HRT),

but the abuse or use to excel in a given sport then may have an impact on your

health. In an era of signing bonuses that trump any salaries to stars in the

" good ol' days " it's no wonder athletes are willing to take the risk.

 

I remember watching a documentary years ago stating that bowls of DBol were on

the dinner tables of most NFL teams.  That's where DBol got it's nickname " the

breakfast of champions " .

 

As far as my opinion is concerned, I just think that although the drugs are

there and available (rule violation or not) there are too many stories about

health issues. Now with pills and protein powders being pulled from store

shelves because liver and kidney damage becomes the diagnosis with young

athletes we find that these supplements were laced with AAS. This further

supports this discussion.

Mark Cotton

New Jersey, USA

Extreme Conditioning Personal Training

Mark Cotton, B.A., PICP & ISSA Certified

(732) 979-7201

www.extremeconditioning.com

http://us.cpoliquin.com/?Click=23

From: KennyCrox@... <KennyCrox@...>

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Supertraining

Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 6:38 PM

Mark,

Lying began in the Garden of Eden with the apple. So, lying has been around for

awhile and will go on forever.

I suspect that today athletes use a lot more today and yesterday.

Steriods are not the villian they've been protrayed to be. It comes down to how

they are used or abused.

This brings us back the stupid people issue.

Kenny Croxdale

Orange, CA

Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

I absolutely agree with Ralph. Alot of these deaths are under the radar as

bodybuilding is not a mainstream sport. The other item that bothers me is the

fact that Baseball Players sat in front of a congressional inquiry, but

bodybuilding and powerlifting (not all groups and federations of course as some

do really try to encourage unaided athletes) are not under the microscope

because they are not mainstream sports.

You see people, if you are close enough to these sports, get ill, wait for

kidney transplants or have a variety of health problems. You hear totally lame

excuses such as, the need to dehydrate, high protein diets, etc. These may not

be the best things to do to your body, but if you add in AAS to the equation I

can't help, but feel that the impact on overall health changes dramatically.

Back in the 1960's the type of and amount of AAS used can't compare to today.

The AAS cycles used today are ridiculously high. Bodybuilders lie about it. To

each other and everyone else. Then they lie about their health issues.

==========================

[Guest guest]

It's not just the AAS - the number of PED's has grown quite a bit since the

1960's. For example, abuse of growth hormone and insulin - those are newer

things to be abused than the earlier times of AAS usage.

Plus they are " rediscovering " old AAS to use to try to avoid detection. The

testing is made up of the most popular and available things, not old obscure

ones.

I'm sure there's also more of the " BALCO " style labs out there sneaking about

catering to athletes too, behind the scenes.

Abuse of legal drugs they can get a " TUE " for also has grown - for example, the

asthma inhaler meds...

The more testing is able to discern endogenous from exogenous, the more it

becomes possible to find the newer drugs.

IOC has taken to holding samples for longer term and retesting - I've seen notes

on a tracking blog by an MD that show that they are still busting people

(quietly) from the Beijing Olympics! CERA EPO is one thing they added to the

testing after the Olympics and this is a popular thing to abuse, several more

people had medals stripped as they had used that substance and got caught after

the fact.

In the women's ranks in particular though, the markers for PED abuse are pretty

clear, particularly in bodybuilding. The general influence of " female "

bodybuilding on the rest of women's sports sadly is showing up now - the more

you look at the top athletes, the more you're sure that something is beyond

eating their cereal and working out. Girls in high school now also feel pressure

to try to be thin for a prom dress, or to get a scholarship for sports - and

this too has lead to a serious increase in the number of young ladies

endangering more than their getting into a dress or getting a scholarship.

I think the 1970's was where the lid came off more than the 1960's - the East

German swim team, the carefully constructed training and drug regimen - this was

perhaps the first of the successful overall programs. Certainly things have

continued to go on in various countries, including USA.

The fact AAS and other PED sources are easily available over the counter in many

countries also is a problem when trying to get people to remain drug free.

Testing is not catching the majority, only the clumsy.

In powerlifting for example, it took a completely unannounced raid on a Russian

Nationals event in the IPF to catch the majority of their top lifters. Naturally

though they went to going to other untested federations, it seems they now use

the tested feds as a training ground and then graduate to the big leagues of

untested and pretty much triple ply anything you can stagger onto a platform

wearing federations....sigh.

It's so difficult to avoid all the sources of contamination of your body if you

are a drug free athlete now. I've taken to wiping down benches before I use them

in the public gyms - so many men are now trying the hormonal adjustment creams

and things that I'm concerned about inadvertent contact! I have to constantly

remind my clients and family that I'm a tested athlete and cannot have teas

which are not carefully manufactured, nor random smoothies at some stand where I

do not know the source of the protein they use, etc. One client's wife bought a

hemp based body lotion, thankfully he asked me before applying to his

feet.....although at his age of upper 50's, it was highly amusing he did not

connect " hemp " with " marijuana " without prompting...!

Anyway it's a sore topic with me because I've heard all the excuses for using

PEDs, I've known people who did them, and I'm tired of the overall blatant

attitude of " well, steroids never KILLED anybody " . Cigarettes too are not listed

on the death certificate, but they certainly can contribute to your death. Some

people are clearly more vulnerable to the effects of these substances than

others. But finally for someone like " Flex " Wheeler and others to admit what I'd

figured all along, that their steroid usage was catching up with them - and to

stop pretending there was a sudden plague of very rare diseases among people who

tan and flex on stage? For the people who made that documentary about their

usage of steroids and pretty much told everybody it was ok to use, I wish they'd

rethink that and try to discourage kids from taking this route NOW.

I also think that people/companies selling OTC versions of AAS need to be

prosecuted and jailed, not merely slowed down. Those who choose to distribute or

aid the selling of such " supplements " should not go unpunished either, the

sooner people stop profiting from the unknown consequences on someone's teen or

frustrated mid life crisis victim the better. Regulation of purity and stiff

penalties for serving up adulterated supplements should happen NOW. Stop making

it difficult for the athlete who wants to remain out of this stuff to stay that

way! And stop lying to us overall, they did NOT get that way using your product,

or eating your diet.

Some of these people dying quietly in the background need more press, they are

perhaps the " canaries in the mines " .

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

=============================

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Nick,

Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

============ ========= ========

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

One of the biggest problems with AAS's are the myths and misinforamation that

surrounds them. Rather than perpetuate false information, I perfer to examine

the facts.

I provided the " Real Sports " news story that dispells most of the myths

associated with steriod use. Did you watch it? If not, it dispells many of

they myths about the health risk.

Also, I was part of a generation of powerlifters that used anabolics back in the

late 1970s. I've kept up with all of my lifting buddies and those in the sport.

Over thirty years later, none of them nor myself has had any health issues

associated with their use. Thus, I have some first hand information.

As Romano (editor of Muscular Development) has stated in regard to the

myths about AAS, " Show me the bodies " ! How many have died, what health issues

have they had and what are the names of the individuals with these problems?

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has stated the the health risk associated with

AAS are exaggerated or just plain lies. Fost does not advocate their use, nor

do I.

Romano and Fost stated that you need to know what you doing, if you are going to

use AAS.

One over the counter medication that is still on the market has killed more

individuals than AAS. Would you consider taking it off the market or making it

a perscription medication?

" This drug was implicated in death by medical examiners 101 times in 1998 and

led to 12,815 hospital visits in that same year. " That over the counter

medication is asprin.

Precisely what protein powders from what location is being pulled from the

shelves? And exactly for what reason? By that I mean that I would like to see

your source of information on this.

Breaking rules is definitely a cause for disqualification, etc.

Your right, with all the money you can make in professional sports, it is no

wonder athletes use them.

As Hal Holbrook said in the movie Wall Street, " What I hate about money is the

things it make you do. "

With that said, athletes, business people, etc are always going to find a way to

" win " .

The problem with this issue and other on this planet are stupid people.

Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS, USAW

Orange, CA

Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

I absolutely agree with Ralph. Alot of these deaths are under the radar as

bodybuilding is not a mainstream sport. The other item that bothers me is the

fact that Baseball Players sat in front of a congressional inquiry, but

bodybuilding and powerlifting (not all groups and federations of course as some

do really try to encourage unaided athletes) are not under the microscope

because they are not mainstream sports.

You see people, if you are close enough to these sports, get ill, wait for

kidney transplants or have a variety of health problems. You hear totally lame

excuses such as, the need to dehydrate, high protein diets, etc. These may not

be the best things to do to your body, but if you add in AAS to the equation I

can't help, but feel that the impact on overall health changes dramatically.

Back in the 1960's the type of and amount of AAS used can't compare to today.

The AAS cycles used today are ridiculously high. Bodybuilders lie about it. To

each other and everyone else. Then they lie about their health issues.

==========================

[Guest guest]

From: " Mark Cotton " <mark@...>

And the second is that AAS are not the villian. The abuse of the drugs to

be better than your opponent or using them when it is a rule violation is

the real issue.

Casler writes:

I think this is a KEY point and occasionally lost in the finger pointing and

hyperbole surrounding this issue.

As we all know, there are many positive medical uses for these compounds.

We also know that INSULIN can be anabolic.

So there is no reason to demonize or over react to the pharmacology itself,

but more the negative physical and moral issues of ABUSE.

At 61 I am looking at the endocrinology of adjusting and balancing hormones

for health and longevity. The " witch hunt " atmosphere of recent years

(while justified to some cases) tends to demonize the well intended

implementations. I think it is important to not over react, but to assess

the medical and health related potential as well.

We used to call it " throwing the baby out with the bathwater " .

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

[Guest guest]

I normally simply read the list attentively. But, as a substance use

researcher, clinician who specializes in drug use prevention and treatment, an

instructor of a drugs and behavior course, an avid lifter and part of the

resistance training culture for several decades, and one who stays abreast of

and has published in the AAS use literature, I feel compelled to comment on this

topic.

In general, hyperbolic stories about great risk and harm are counter-productive.

Several studies, including one I published with some colleagues in 2007, show

that AAS users do not see the science as credible. We can debate their wisdom,

but the better approach might be to wonder why. It may be that " scientists "

have consistently focused on such stories and worked hard to define use as

pathological and overly risky. It started with a denial that AAS even increased

muscle mass, that it was all a placebo effect. There is a literature to support

some placebo effects in AAS - both physical and psychological - but the

motivation for the denial of their actual effects was transparent.

When that myth was dispelled, it moved to the fact that all use of AAS was abuse

- the literature is still replete with the use of the terms interchangeably. As

a trained diagnostician and author of work on the vagaries of diagnosing

substance use disorders, I can tell you that there are specific definitions for

such terms as use, abuse, and so on and science certainly should be reported in

accord with them. All use or even misuse is not abuse. Further, AAS have been

imbued with some magical power to inexorably subvert the psyche of users, to

inevitably commandeer it to violence, even though many reviewers have noted

otherwise. Again, a myth and one that is often extended to physical

consequences as well.

All in all, the AAS literature and its interaction with the media often appears

as a loosely organized campaign to highlight a low probability set of negative

consequences while ignoring the (for lack of a better word) successful use.

This is not unlike the pyramid of prejudice that has followed numerous other

" undesirable " drugs through history, the guilt by association notion, with much

the same effect. It is the formula for creating an alienated and burgeoning

subculture which develops its own " science " . In the end, users who have used

AAS successfully with minimal (and well-managed) harm see this literature and

ignore it. Naive users then learn to do so as well, but being less savvy, a

minority may do so to their detriment.

Clearly some points need to be made: These are potentially dangerous drugs. It

is not a revelation to suggest that their abuse can lead to problems and that a

dependence syndrome likely exists (although I think we can and should debate the

nature and prevalence of it). It does seem, however, that it is rarely noted

that such consequences are low probability in a minority of cases. In addition,

the same can be said of most drugs we use, licit or otherwise, and fatal

medication errors associated with prescribed medications are far more common. A

quick review of recent Drug Abuse Warning Network data show the low probability

of AAS being reported in ER visits compared to prescription pharmaceuticals.

Singling out this class of drugs for attention seems to reflect a motivated and

selective attention. The caveat here is clear; the danger lies in the

interaction between the user (individual differences) and the drug - it would be

good if we moved from blanket condemnation to looking at in whom what factors

convey risk.

Another point; Cheating is cheating - but the use of drugs in sport when there

is a proscription against it should not be confused with representing the

essence of drug use itself - if the rules prohibit it, then use should be

punished in that context. Moral and scientific issues need to be separated.

Use in contravention of the rules is not the drug's fault, does not make the

drug evil - it may be a moral flaw in the user or the system - and it again, may

reflect use, not abuse. It is too simplistic to reason that AAS are evil

because cheaters use them.

In most cases, we are well past the demonization of specific drugs as agents of

evil and universally harmful - and now look at such complex pictures of

initiation, maintenance and escalation of use and potential consequences in more

sophisticated ways - in a larger biopsychosocial context. Simplistic reasoning

and ideas are usually left to the public and politicians. I am not sure we have

gotten to that point yet in the AAS literature, however, as opposed to finger

wagging....but it will be nice if we do so eventually.

Jack Darkes, Ph.D.

Tampa Fl, USA

________________________________

From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On

Behalf Of KennyCrox@...

Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:20 PM

Supertraining

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Mark,

One of the biggest problems with AAS's are the myths and misinforamation that

surrounds them. Rather than perpetuate false information, I perfer to examine

the facts.

I provided the " Real Sports " news story that dispells most of the myths

associated with steriod use. Did you watch it? If not, it dispells many of they

myths about the health risk.

Also, I was part of a generation of powerlifters that used anabolics back in the

late 1970s. I've kept up with all of my lifting buddies and those in the sport.

Over thirty years later, none of them nor myself has had any health issues

associated with their use. Thus, I have some first hand information.

As Romano (editor of Muscular Development) has stated in regard to the

myths about AAS, " Show me the bodies " ! How many have died, what health issues

have they had and what are the names of the individuals with these problems?

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has stated the the health risk associated with

AAS are exaggerated or just plain lies. Fost does not advocate their use, nor do

I.

Romano and Fost stated that you need to know what you doing, if you are going to

use AAS.

One over the counter medication that is still on the market has killed more

individuals than AAS. Would you consider taking it off the market or making it a

perscription medication?

" This drug was implicated in death by medical examiners 101 times in 1998 and

led to 12,815 hospital visits in that same year. " That over the counter

medication is asprin.

Precisely what protein powders from what location is being pulled from the

shelves? And exactly for what reason? By that I mean that I would like to see

your source of information on this.

Breaking rules is definitely a cause for disqualification, etc.

Your right, with all the money you can make in professional sports, it is no

wonder athletes use them.

As Hal Holbrook said in the movie Wall Street, " What I hate about money is the

things it make you do. "

With that said, athletes, business people, etc are always going to find a way to

" win " .

The problem with this issue and other on this planet are stupid people.

Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS, USAW

Orange, CA

[Guest guest]

Yes, why is it that the same people who won't believe accurate studies even

including their own ranks like the study we are discussing - these very people

will believe ANYTHING you put in a supplement ad, including overnight giant

gains in size and strength? every 5 minutes there's a new bb supplement fad? the

so called " studies " behind a good many of these " legal " supplements are

downright window dressing, usually somebody who owns half a company or a flawed

study that doesn't even involve the supplement, cited for convenience and the

Almighty Dollar...!

The same men who will argue incessantly about a bench shirt, the quality of

someone's muscle mass, etc....believe whole heartedly that PEDs are safe,

lawful, and useful in even recreational lifting.... or they believe the huge guy

in the ad got that way using just protein powder?

I think we need more actual enforcement of the laws against the sale and usage

outside of the doctor's guidance - but also to crack down on such doctors who

abuse the privilege, same as we would those abusing and dispensing other

controlled substances in a poor and unprofessional fashion.

Only then can we start to possibly get leeway to head off the destruction of the

future of a good many young men and women who look to the " anything to win "

world of PEDs and believe it can be done that way, that hard work and proper

choices in their chosen sports no longer pay off!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

===========================

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Mark,

One of the biggest problems with AAS's are the myths and misinforamation that

surrounds them. Rather than perpetuate false information, I perfer to examine

the facts.

I provided the " Real Sports " news story that dispells most of the myths

associated with steriod use. Did you watch it? If not, it dispells many of they

myths about the health risk.

Also, I was part of a generation of powerlifters that used anabolics back in the

late 1970s. I've kept up with all of my lifting buddies and those in the sport.

Over thirty years later, none of them nor myself has had any health issues

associated with their use. Thus, I have some first hand information.

As Romano (editor of Muscular Development) has stated in regard to the

myths about AAS, " Show me the bodies " ! How many have died, what health issues

have they had and what are the names of the individuals with these problems?

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has stated the the health risk associated with

AAS are exaggerated or just plain lies. Fost does not advocate their use, nor do

I.

Romano and Fost stated that you need to know what you doing, if you are going to

use AAS.

One over the counter medication that is still on the market has killed more

individuals than AAS. Would you consider taking it off the market or making it a

perscription medication?

" This drug was implicated in death by medical examiners 101 times in 1998 and

led to 12,815 hospital visits in that same year. " That over the counter

medication is asprin.

Precisely what protein powders from what location is being pulled from the

shelves? And exactly for what reason? By that I mean that I would like to see

your source of information on this.

Breaking rules is definitely a cause for disqualification, etc.

Your right, with all the money you can make in professional sports, it is no

wonder athletes use them.

As Hal Holbrook said in the movie Wall Street, " What I hate about money is the

things it make you do. "

With that said, athletes, business people, etc are always going to find a way to

" win " .

The problem with this issue and other on this planet are stupid people.

Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS, USAW

Orange, CA

======================

[Guest guest]

Ralph,

You are diligent in presenting information on this board. I appreciate and

enjoy your post.

With that said, since there are a pile of bodies (as per you), then I am sure

you can provide names and details with this, as you have with other information.

Kenny Croxdale

Orange, CA

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

There are a pile of bodies they just don't make the pages of muscle magazines,

they only make the obituaries of their local papers.

=============================

[Guest guest]

I think that after reading this list for quite a while, I can safely say that

Dr. Ralph G. is one of the more rational and brave people posting on the list. I

would really hesitate to engage in practices that he says cause illness.

Rational in his statementts, all of which agree with what I learned in the

course of getting a BA in biology at Harvard, Brave because in these times it's

rare for medical people to be willing to give any kind of advice in public for

fear of the lawyer sharks in the pool.

Fair winds and happy bytes,

Dave Flory,

Flower Mound, TX, U.S.A.

--

Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick!

====================================

\

On Dec 20, 2009, at 2:34 PM, Jay wrote:

> If you can make a rational argument that the cause is directly correlated to

their usage of AAS rather than:

>

> •Lifestyle choices

> •Alcohol-Ciggarettes-Rec Drug use

> •Poor Nutrition

>

> I will be amazed.

>

> People die all on the regular for a multitude of reasons.

>

> As Kenny stated succinctly the first time, show me the " pile of bodies " who

die from their direct using/abusing of AAS.

>

> Jay

> Pasadena, CA

>

> Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

>

>

>

> Nick,

>

> Let's work from the bottom of you post backwards.

>

> 1) You'll never rid sports of drugs.

>

> 2) Squats being blamed for someone death. lol. I thought I had heard it all.

>

> 3) I question the study on bodybuilders having kidney problems with the use of

steriods. Steriod use has been going on since the 1960s, maybe longer. If

steriods were killing athletes, there would be a pile of bodies.

>

> An interesting story that disputes the misinformation on steriods was on Real

Sports. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=z0LEj8IPHGU & feature=related

>

> One of the biggest causes of death among people is stupidity.

>

> =============================

>

Fair winds and happy bytes, Dave Flory, Flower Mound, TX, U.S.A.

--

Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick!

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Perhaps all high school kids should be shown the film " Bigger, Faster, Stronger "

by Bell, along with the additional info that the supplement company model,

Christian what's his name, who appears in the film, got cut from his contract

for admitting to steroid use.

I also heard that Jay Cutler got the equivalent of a final warning for his non

part in the same film, see the deleted scenes for his piece.

People will, unfortunately, look for the path of least resistance, which leads

away from hard training and consistent nutrition and towards bogus supplement

and even steroid use; a real shame.

Regards,

Young

London, UK

Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Yes, why is it that the same people who won't believe accurate studies even

including their own ranks like the study we are discussing - these very people

will believe ANYTHING you put in a supplement ad, including overnight giant

gains in size and strength? every 5 minutes there's a new bb supplement fad? the

so called " studies " behind a good many of these " legal " supplements are

downright window dressing, usually somebody who owns half a company or a flawed

study that doesn't even involve the supplement, cited for convenience and the

Almighty Dollar...!

The same men who will argue incessantly about a bench shirt, the quality of

someone's muscle mass, etc....believe whole heartedly that PEDs are safe,

lawful, and useful in even recreational lifting.... or they believe the huge guy

in the ad got that way using just protein powder?

I think we need more actual enforcement of the laws against the sale and usage

outside of the doctor's guidance - but also to crack down on such doctors who

abuse the privilege, same as we would those abusing and dispensing other

controlled substances in a poor and unprofessional fashion.

Only then can we start to possibly get leeway to head off the destruction of the

future of a good many young men and women who look to the " anything to win "

world of PEDs and believe it can be done that way, that hard work and proper

choices in their chosen sports no longer pay off!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

===========================

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Mark,

One of the biggest problems with AAS's are the myths and misinforamation that

surrounds them. Rather than perpetuate false information, I perfer to examine

the facts.

I provided the " Real Sports " news story that dispells most of the myths

associated with steriod use. Did you watch it? If not, it dispells many of they

myths about the health risk.

Also, I was part of a generation of powerlifters that used anabolics back in the

late 1970s. I've kept up with all of my lifting buddies and those in the sport.

Over thirty years later, none of them nor myself has had any health issues

associated with their use. Thus, I have some first hand information.

As Romano (editor of Muscular Development) has stated in regard to the

myths about AAS, " Show me the bodies " ! How many have died, what health issues

have they had and what are the names of the individuals with these problems?

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has stated the the health risk associated with

AAS are exaggerated or just plain lies. Fost does not advocate their use, nor do

I.

Romano and Fost stated that you need to know what you doing, if you are going to

use AAS.

One over the counter medication that is still on the market has killed more

individuals than AAS. Would you consider taking it off the market or making it a

perscription medication?

" This drug was implicated in death by medical examiners 101 times in 1998 and

led to 12,815 hospital visits in that same year. " That over the counter

medication is asprin.

Precisely what protein powders from what location is being pulled from the

shelves? And exactly for what reason? By that I mean that I would like to see

your source of information on this.

Breaking rules is definitely a cause for disqualification, etc.

Your right, with all the money you can make in professional sports, it is no

wonder athletes use them.

As Hal Holbrook said in the movie Wall Street, " What I hate about money is the

things it make you do. "

With that said, athletes, business people, etc are always going to find a way to

" win " .

The problem with this issue and other on this planet are stupid people.

Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS, USAW

Orange, CA

======================

[Guest guest]

I think it is imperative to note the age-related differences among those who use

AAS, whether to boost sports performance or for other ends. I suspect, with

some evidence, that younger, adolescent users might be inclined to view AAS use

as a shortcut - if you will " the path of least resistance " - to a number of

goals important to those at that age. Indeed, one of the major flaws in the

reasoning in the AAS literature is that researchers do not appreciate that

children and adolescents are not just smaller adults - one cannot ascribe the

same motives nor attribute the same processes to use, abuse, and consequences in

teens v. adults.

OTOH, athletes at higher or later levels of sport do not seem to view them this

way - and I suspect, again with evidence, rightly so. Data suggest that, in

very large part, adults who use AAS (even those who are not athletes) do not

forego hard training and consistent nutrition; our study in 2007 showed this and

any one who has interacted in the culture knows this is not the case. Those

trained up or mentored into the culture of use are admonished about this and

even ostracized if they suggest otherwise. The notion that users view AAS as a

short cut to avoid training simply perpetuates a negative stereotype.

In this case, these substances are not a replacement but an adjunct and, in some

cases, a " necessary " or unavoidable adjunct. For instance, your example of Jay

Cutler. Would any amount of hard training or consistent diet lead to that level

of muscular development? Of course not. Conversely, would using AAS without

consistent application of those elements lead to it? Of course not. They are

not replacements, they are not intended to supplant such efforts, and hence are

not a path of least resistance to a goal that could be reached with hard work -

because the end point is most often not attainable otherwise. So if you want to

shame anything, perhaps the place to start would be the setting or imposition of

goals that are not attainable via other means.

BTW, that was the message of Chris' picture; if we demand that our athletes, our

heroes, our " role models " , always be Bigger, Stronger and Faster (than life or

than those preceding them), then that is what we are doing - creating a standard

that is unattainable without such measures.

Jack Darkes, Ph.D.

Tampa, FL USA

________________________________

From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ] On

Behalf Of youch01@...

Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 3:38 PM

Supertraining

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi All,

Perhaps all high school kids should be shown the film " Bigger, Faster, Stronger "

by Bell, along with the additional info that the supplement company model,

Christian what's his name, who appears in the film, got cut from his contract

for admitting to steroid use.

I also heard that Jay Cutler got the equivalent of a final warning for his non

part in the same film, see the deleted scenes for his piece.

People will, unfortunately, look for the path of least resistance, which leads

away from hard training and consistent nutrition and towards bogus supplement

and even steroid use; a real shame.

Regards,

Young

London, UK

Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Yes, why is it that the same people who won't believe accurate studies even

including their own ranks like the study we are discussing - these very people

will believe ANYTHING you put in a supplement ad, including overnight giant

gains in size and strength? every 5 minutes there's a new bb supplement fad? the

so called " studies " behind a good many of these " legal " supplements are

downright window dressing, usually somebody who owns half a company or a flawed

study that doesn't even involve the supplement, cited for convenience and the

Almighty Dollar...!

The same men who will argue incessantly about a bench shirt, the quality of

someone's muscle mass, etc....believe whole heartedly that PEDs are safe,

lawful, and useful in even recreational lifting.... or they believe the huge guy

in the ad got that way using just protein powder?

I think we need more actual enforcement of the laws against the sale and usage

outside of the doctor's guidance - but also to crack down on such doctors who

abuse the privilege, same as we would those abusing and dispensing other

controlled substances in a poor and unprofessional fashion.

Only then can we start to possibly get leeway to head off the destruction of the

future of a good many young men and women who look to the " anything to win "

world of PEDs and believe it can be done that way, that hard work and proper

choices in their chosen sports no longer pay off!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

===========================

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Mark,

One of the biggest problems with AAS's are the myths and misinforamation that

surrounds them. Rather than perpetuate false information, I perfer to examine

the facts.

I provided the " Real Sports " news story that dispells most of the myths

associated with steriod use. Did you watch it? If not, it dispells many of they

myths about the health risk.

Also, I was part of a generation of powerlifters that used anabolics back in the

late 1970s. I've kept up with all of my lifting buddies and those in the sport.

Over thirty years later, none of them nor myself has had any health issues

associated with their use. Thus, I have some first hand information.

As Romano (editor of Muscular Development) has stated in regard to the

myths about AAS, " Show me the bodies " ! How many have died, what health issues

have they had and what are the names of the individuals with these problems?

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has stated the the health risk associated with

AAS are exaggerated or just plain lies. Fost does not advocate their use, nor do

I.

Romano and Fost stated that you need to know what you doing, if you are going to

use AAS.

One over the counter medication that is still on the market has killed more

individuals than AAS. Would you consider taking it off the market or making it a

perscription medication?

" This drug was implicated in death by medical examiners 101 times in 1998 and

led to 12,815 hospital visits in that same year. " That over the counter

medication is asprin.

Precisely what protein powders from what location is being pulled from the

shelves? And exactly for what reason? By that I mean that I would like to see

your source of information on this.

Breaking rules is definitely a cause for disqualification, etc.

Your right, with all the money you can make in professional sports, it is no

wonder athletes use them.

As Hal Holbrook said in the movie Wall Street, " What I hate about money is the

things it make you do. "

With that said, athletes, business people, etc are always going to find a way to

" win " .

The problem with this issue and other on this planet are stupid people.

Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS, USAW

Orange, CA

======================

[Guest guest]

Sigh. I'd also add that " 30 Days " episode where the 30 something man gets the

" rejuvenation " treatments that end up causing him to have liver problems and

other issues after just 21 days on.

And then there's one of the ultimate in female steroid aversion therapy -

" Supersize She " - Joanna the bodybuilder's show. Clad in pink, this is

one documentary that does it all, including a 4 am diary talk with uh, beard

shadow....from the opening part where she sounds eerily like Beckham, it

just takes you through the scary world of " female " bodybuilding and the

delusions therein.

Round it off with Gregg Valentino and his exploding biceps, and you get a better

view of what not to do?

I think we could give the kids nightmares for months maybe - and possibly get at

least 3 of them to not do it or stop. Sigh.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

======================================

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Yes, why is it that the same people who won't believe accurate studies even

including their own ranks like the study we are discussing - these very people

will believe ANYTHING you put in a supplement ad, including overnight giant

gains in size and strength? every 5 minutes there's a new bb supplement fad? the

so called " studies " behind a good many of these " legal " supplements are

downright window dressing, usually somebody who owns half a company or a flawed

study that doesn't even involve the supplement, cited for convenience and the

Almighty Dollar...!

The same men who will argue incessantly about a bench shirt, the quality of

someone's muscle mass, etc....believe whole heartedly that PEDs are safe,

lawful, and useful in even recreational lifting.... or they believe the huge guy

in the ad got that way using just protein powder?

I think we need more actual enforcement of the laws against the sale and usage

outside of the doctor's guidance - but also to crack down on such doctors who

abuse the privilege, same as we would those abusing and dispensing other

controlled substances in a poor and unprofessional fashion.

Only then can we start to possibly get leeway to head off the destruction of the

future of a good many young men and women who look to the " anything to win "

world of PEDs and believe it can be done that way, that hard work and proper

choices in their chosen sports no longer pay off!

=======================

[Guest guest]

,

You are 100% correct about enforcing the law as it pertains to steroid use and

abuse.  About 100 years ago, Ha! I was recruited out of high school to play

football at The University of Houston.  I had played fullback and linebacker at

205lbs in high school and after accepting my scholarship, started receiving

vitamin " B-12 " shots and tablets. Within 3 months, I was a 247lb strong

safety.  Of course, I've since learned that I was being given D-Ball and other

steroids.  I played and excelled at the college level and had my shot in the

pro's.  I went on to a long career in the Army (Sua Sponte) and Powerlifting

became my sport of choice.  I'm 56 years old now but at 51 had personal best's

of 685, 444, 685.  The point?  4 years ago, I began treatment on 2 tumors on

my liver.  I'm now cancer free but have wondered if the steroids contributed to

my health problems.  I don't post often but wanted to put my 2 cents worth in

on this.  I enjoy your

insight on so many things.  Keep active on this site.  Merry Christmas from

Friedrichshafen, Germany.

BA, Sports Administration

CPT

________________________________

From: " deadliftdiva@... " <deadliftdiva@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 10:56:26 PM

Subject: Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

 

Yes, why is it that the same people who won't believe accurate studies even

including their own ranks like the study we are discussing - these very people

will believe ANYTHING you put in a supplement ad, including overnight giant

gains in size and strength? every 5 minutes there's a new bb supplement fad? the

so called " studies " behind a good many of these " legal " supplements are

downright window dressing, usually somebody who owns half a company or a flawed

study that doesn't even involve the supplement, cited for convenience and the

Almighty Dollar...!

The same men who will argue incessantly about a bench shirt, the quality of

someone's muscle mass, etc....believe whole heartedly that PEDs are safe,

lawful, and useful in even recreational lifting.... or they believe the huge guy

in the ad got that way using just protein powder?

I think we need more actual enforcement of the laws against the sale and usage

outside of the doctor's guidance - but also to crack down on such doctors who

abuse the privilege, same as we would those abusing and dispensing other

controlled substances in a poor and unprofessional fashion.

Only then can we start to possibly get leeway to head off the destruction of the

future of a good many young men and women who look to the " anything to win "

world of PEDs and believe it can be done that way, that hard work and proper

choices in their chosen sports no longer pay off!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

============ ========= ======

Re: Bodybuilders See Kidney Damage With Steroids

Hi Mark,

One of the biggest problems with AAS's are the myths and misinforamation that

surrounds them. Rather than perpetuate false information, I perfer to examine

the facts.

I provided the " Real Sports " news story that dispells most of the myths

associated with steriod use. Did you watch it? If not, it dispells many of they

myths about the health risk.

Also, I was part of a generation of powerlifters that used anabolics back in the

late 1970s. I've kept up with all of my lifting buddies and those in the sport.

Over thirty years later, none of them nor myself has had any health issues

associated with their use. Thus, I have some first hand information.

As Romano (editor of Muscular Development) has stated in regard to the

myths about AAS, " Show me the bodies " ! How many have died, what health issues

have they had and what are the names of the individuals with these problems?

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has stated the the health risk associated with

AAS are exaggerated or just plain lies. Fost does not advocate their use, nor do

I.

Romano and Fost stated that you need to know what you doing, if you are going to

use AAS.

One over the counter medication that is still on the market has killed more

individuals than AAS. Would you consider taking it off the market or making it a

perscription medication?

" This drug was implicated in death by medical examiners 101 times in 1998 and

led to 12,815 hospital visits in that same year. " That over the counter

medication is asprin.

Precisely what protein powders from what location is being pulled from the

shelves? And exactly for what reason? By that I mean that I would like to see

your source of information on this.

Breaking rules is definitely a cause for disqualification, etc.

Your right, with all the money you can make in professional sports, it is no

wonder athletes use them.

As Hal Holbrook said in the movie Wall Street, " What I hate about money is the

things it make you do. "

With that said, athletes, business people, etc are always going to find a way to

" win " .

The problem with this issue and other on this planet are stupid people.

Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS, USAW

Orange, CA

============ ========= =