Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Hi Carl! In a message dated 8/8/2009 9:59:16 A.M. Central America Standard Ti, ssp67047@... writes: Carl Brewer wrote: There's no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans and blood lactate is a fuel not a performance inhibitor. Oddly, in the current edition (3rd) of the NSCA's book 'Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning' , it points that out quite clearly, and on the very next page, talks about lactic acid again. The editor wasn't paying attention! ----- **** There may well have been some work prior to this that he was referencing, but I believe Owen mentioned the myths about lactic acid back in '97, and then included a chapter on this in his '98 book, Lactate Lift-Off. You'd be amazed at my level how many coaches still believe that lactic acid is a toxic waste product resulting from intense exercise, and that the object of training is to " buffer " this acidosis to prevent its onset, and then to remove it as quickly as possible once a workout session is completed. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Carl Brewer wrote: There's no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans and blood lactate is a fuel not a performance inhibitor. Oddly, in the current edition (3rd) of the NSCA's book 'Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning' , it points that out quite clearly, and on the very next page, talks about lactic acid again. The editor wasn't paying attention! ----- Colleagues, I authored one of the chapters in E3 (Speed, Agility & Speed Endurance Development) and briefly discussed glycolytic metabolism there. Hopefully I got it more right than wrong. It's true that lactic acid dissociates into lactate and hydrogen ion at physiological pH. Intracellular pH is ~7.0 at rest, but can approach 6.1 in FT fibers during activity.Most of the LA may be dissociated even at those lower pH levels - so technically there's not much " lactic acid " around even when there is a lot of glycolytic end-product. In any case, the accompanying acid-base disturbances can limit performance in a few ways. It's also true that pyruvate and lactate are high-yield fuels when oxidized. The problem is they can accumulate faster than mitochondria accept them, even with the system actively shuttling it around. So pyruvate-lactate is a valuable substrate, but there's a short-term price to pay when it starts piling up. The beauty of having interdependent energy systems is that they can buffer each other's effects. The folklore about LA causing everything from stiffness and soreness to 'oxygen debt' is more nonsense that just won't go away... Regards, Plisk Excelsior Sports •Shelton CT www.excelsiorsports.com Prepare To Be A Champion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Ok, I'll bite. I do understand that Lactic is not the bad guy, but when I try to explain this to other coaches they then ask " well, what is it that is linked to fatigue, DOMS etc? " . I struggle to give them an easy answer since the research I have found is not exactly 'decisive' on what the real causes are. Little help? Thanks Atlas, Denver, CO USA > There's no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans and blood lactate is a > fuel not a performance inhibitor. Oddly, in the current edition (3rd) of the > NSCA's book 'Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning' , it points > that out quite clearly, and on the very next page, talks about lactic acid > again. The editor wasn't paying attention! > ----- > > > **** > There may well have been some work prior to this that he was referencing, > but I believe Owen mentioned the myths about lactic acid back in > '97, and then included a chapter on this in his '98 book, Lactate Lift-Off. > > You'd be amazed at my level how many coaches still believe that lactic acid > is a toxic waste product resulting from intense exercise, and that the > object of training is to " buffer " this acidosis to prevent its onset, and then > to remove it as quickly as possible once a workout session is completed. > > Ken Jakalski > Lisle High School > Lisle, IL USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 is right. That myth has more lives than Dracula and somedays we're out of stakes.... The Phantom aka Schaefer, RMT/CMT, competing powerlifter Denver, Colorado, USA ============================ Lactic acid/lactate Carl Brewer wrote: There's no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans and blood lactate is a fuel not a performance inhibitor. Oddly, in the current edition (3rd) of the NSCA's book 'Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning' , it points that out quite clearly, and on the very next page, talks about lactic acid again. The editor wasn't paying attention! ----- Colleagues, I authored one of the chapters in E3 (Speed, Agility & Speed Endurance Development) and briefly discussed glycolytic metabolism there. Hopefully I got it more right than wrong. It's true that lactic acid dissociates into lactate and hydrogen ion at physiological pH. Intracellular pH is ~7.0 at rest, but can approach 6.1 in FT fibers during activity.Most of the LA may be dissociated even at those lower pH levels - so technically there's not much " lactic acid " around even when there is a lot of glycolytic end-product. In any case, the accompanying acid-base disturbances can limit performance in a few ways. It's also true that pyruvate and lactate are high-yield fuels when oxidized. The problem is they can accumulate faster than mitochondria accept them, even with the system actively shuttling it around. So pyruvate-lactate is a valuable substrate, but there's a short-term price to pay when it starts piling up. The beauty of having interdependent energy systems is that they can buffer each other's effects. The folklore about LA causing everything from stiffness and soreness to 'oxygen debt' is more nonsense that just won't go away... =========================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 For those that are interest Juerg Feldman has been working with the idea of lactate as a fuel and bio-marker for metabolism rather than a waste since the early 80's. He is truly on the cutting edge of endurance training and figuring out what is really happening to the body from training. Much farther ahead than many Universities and Colleges and " big names " in coaching and sport. The thing is he really doesn't care about making a name for himself, it's his life passion and hobby. If you check out his website www.fact-canada.com and start reading the forum and some of the threads it will open your mind wider than any university, book or course (for a peice of paper). It will lead you to asking more questions but that's the beauty. If you are interested in endurance training, check it out. Dan Zucconi Mississauga Ontario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Dan, the fact that lactate is a fuel has been known prior to the 80s. Ringers Lactate IV fusion has been used in medical situations at least since the late 60s (I graduated from Medical school in 1971 and it was commonly used during my training). McKardle Katch and Katch and other university sports text books also describe Lactate as a fuel and not a waste product. It is the uninformed or poorly educated " coaches and trainers " that continue to spread the misinformation about lactic acidosis. As the saying goes if a lie is repeated enough times it soon becomes accepted as truth. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA ________________________________ From: danzucconi <danzucconi@...> Supertraining Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2009 7:44:35 PM Subject: Re: Lactic acid/lactate For those that are interest Juerg Feldman has been working with the idea of lactate as a fuel and bio-marker for metabolism rather than a waste since the early 80's. He is truly on the cutting edge of endurance training and figuring out what is really happening to the body from training. Much farther ahead than many Universities and Colleges and " big names " in coaching and sport. The thing is he really doesn't care about making a name for himself, it's his life passion and hobby. If you check out his website www.fact-canada. com and start reading the forum and some of the threads it will open your mind wider than any university, book or course (for a peice of paper). It will lead you to asking more questions but that's the beauty. If you are interested in endurance training, check it out. Dan Zucconi Mississauga Ontario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Excellent post Steve. With regards to Carl Brewer's statement- " there is no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans " - that is not a true statement. As you pointed out lactic acid is formed when pyruvate cannot enter the krebs cycle because of inadequate oxygen and it then quickly becomes lactate by shedding Hydrogen ion taking on either Sodium ion or Potassium ion. Severe lactic acidosis, however. does occur in pathological situations where there is an overwhelming production of lactic acidosis and the usual buffers can no longer keep pace. This can be seen during carcdiac arrest or during other severe pathologic hypoxic events. Lactic acid in these conditions not only exists, it is measureable in the lab. I have seen patients arrive at the ER with pH as low as 7.1 with very high lactic acid levels. Athletes never become sufficiently hypoxic to allow this type of situation to occur. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA ________________________________ From: Plisk <ssp67047@...> Supertraining <Supertraining > Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2009 11:41:32 AM Subject: Lactic acid/lactate Carl Brewer wrote: There's no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans and blood lactate is a fuel not a performance inhibitor. Oddly, in the current edition (3rd) of the NSCA's book 'Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning' , it points that out quite clearly, and on the very next page, talks about lactic acid again. The editor wasn't paying attention! ----- Colleagues, I authored one of the chapters in E3 (Speed, Agility & Speed Endurance Development) and briefly discussed glycolytic metabolism there. Hopefully I got it more right than wrong. It's true that lactic acid dissociates into lactate and hydrogen ion at physiological pH. Intracellular pH is ~7.0 at rest, but can approach 6.1 in FT fibers during activity.Most of the LA may be dissociated even at those lower pH levels - so technically there's not much " lactic acid " around even when there is a lot of glycolytic end-product. In any case, the accompanying acid-base disturbances can limit performance in a few ways. It's also true that pyruvate and lactate are high-yield fuels when oxidized. The problem is they can accumulate faster than mitochondria accept them, even with the system actively shuttling it around. So pyruvate-lactate is a valuable substrate, but there's a short-term price to pay when it starts piling up. The beauty of having interdependent energy systems is that they can buffer each other's effects. The folklore about LA causing everything from stiffness and soreness to 'oxygen debt' is more nonsense that just won't go away... Regards, Plisk Excelsior Sports •Shelton CT www.excelsiorsports .com Prepare To Be A Champion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Excellent post Steve. With regards to Carl Brewer's statement- " there is no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans " - that is not a true statement. As you pointed out lactic acid is formed when pyruvate cannot enter the krebs cycle because of inadequate oxygen and it then quickly becomes lactate by shedding Hydrogen ion taking on either Sodium ion or Potassium ion. Severe lactic acidosis, however. does occur in pathological situations where there is an overwhelming production of lactic acidosis and the usual buffers can no longer keep pace. This can be seen during carcdiac arrest or during other severe pathologic hypoxic events. Lactic acid in these conditions not only exists, it is measureable in the lab. I have seen patients arrive at the ER with pH as low as 7.1 with very high lactic acid levels. Athletes never become sufficiently hypoxic to allow this type of situation to occur. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA ________________________________ From: Plisk <ssp67047@...> Supertraining <Supertraining > Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2009 11:41:32 AM Subject: Lactic acid/lactate Carl Brewer wrote: There's no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans and blood lactate is a fuel not a performance inhibitor. Oddly, in the current edition (3rd) of the NSCA's book 'Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning' , it points that out quite clearly, and on the very next page, talks about lactic acid again. The editor wasn't paying attention! ----- Colleagues, I authored one of the chapters in E3 (Speed, Agility & Speed Endurance Development) and briefly discussed glycolytic metabolism there. Hopefully I got it more right than wrong. It's true that lactic acid dissociates into lactate and hydrogen ion at physiological pH. Intracellular pH is ~7.0 at rest, but can approach 6.1 in FT fibers during activity.Most of the LA may be dissociated even at those lower pH levels - so technically there's not much " lactic acid " around even when there is a lot of glycolytic end-product. In any case, the accompanying acid-base disturbances can limit performance in a few ways. It's also true that pyruvate and lactate are high-yield fuels when oxidized. The problem is they can accumulate faster than mitochondria accept them, even with the system actively shuttling it around. So pyruvate-lactate is a valuable substrate, but there's a short-term price to pay when it starts piling up. The beauty of having interdependent energy systems is that they can buffer each other's effects. The folklore about LA causing everything from stiffness and soreness to 'oxygen debt' is more nonsense that just won't go away... Regards, Plisk Excelsior Sports •Shelton CT www.excelsiorsports .com Prepare To Be A Champion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Ralph, It's interesting that's it's been that long (the late 60's) since it's been known, yet it was such an engrained idea. If you get a chance I really think you should take a look at Juerg's discussion board. You might enjoy the reading. Cheers Dan Zucconi Mississauga Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Ralph, It's interesting that's it's been that long (the late 60's) since it's been known, yet it was such an engrained idea. If you get a chance I really think you should take a look at Juerg's discussion board. You might enjoy the reading. Cheers Dan Zucconi Mississauga Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Ralph Giarnella wrote: > Excellent post Steve. With regards to Carl Brewer's statement- > " there is no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans " - that is not a > true statement. As you pointed out lactic acid is formed when > pyruvate cannot enter the krebs cycle because of inadequate oxygen > and it then quickly becomes lactate by shedding Hydrogen ion taking > on either Sodium ion or Potassium ion. The article on wikipedia states ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid ) > Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate > does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed > onset muscle soreness.[1] This is because lactate itself is not > capable of releasing a proton, and secondly, the acidic form of > lactate, lactic acid, cannot be formed under normal circumstances in > human tissues.[citations needed] Analysis of the glycolytic pathway > in humans indicates that there are not enough hydrogen ions present > in the glycolytic intermediates to produce lactic or any other acid. > > The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate > concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction. > When ATP is hydrolysed, a hydrogen ion is released. ATP-derived > hydrogen ions are primarily responsible for the decrease in pH. > During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP > quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, > anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as > it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being > produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering > systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating > a state of acidosis, a natural process which facilitates the easier > dissociation of Oxyhaemoglobin and allows easier transfer of oxygen > from the blood[2]. This may be one factor, among many, that > contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly > after intense exercise.[citations needed] > > The effect of lactate on acidosis has been the topic of many recent > conferences in the field of exercise physiology. Robergs et al. have > accurately chased the proton movement that occurs during glycolysis. > However, in doing so, they have suggested that [H+] is an independent > variable that determines its own concentration. A recent review by > Lindinger et al.[3] has been written to rebut the stoichiometric > approach used by Robergs et al. (2004).[1] In using this > stoichiometric process, Robergs et al. have ignored the causative > factors (independent variables) of the concentration of hydrogen ions > (denoted [H+]). These factors are strong ion difference [sID], PCO2, > and weak acid buffers. Lactate is a strong anion, and causes a > reduction in [sID] which causes an increase in [H+] to maintain > electroneutrality. PCO2 also causes an increase in [H+]. During > exercise, the intramuscular lactate concentration and PCO2 increase, > causing an increase in [H+], and thus a decrease in pH. (See Le > Chatelier's principle) Wikipedia's not 100% accurate, of course, but I'd be interested to see where the extract above is incorrect or misleading such that it may be corrected. Carl Brewer, Melbourne, Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Ralph Giarnella wrote: > Excellent post Steve. With regards to Carl Brewer's statement- > " there is no such thing as " lactic acid " in humans " - that is not a > true statement. As you pointed out lactic acid is formed when > pyruvate cannot enter the krebs cycle because of inadequate oxygen > and it then quickly becomes lactate by shedding Hydrogen ion taking > on either Sodium ion or Potassium ion. The article on wikipedia states ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid ) > Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate > does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed > onset muscle soreness.[1] This is because lactate itself is not > capable of releasing a proton, and secondly, the acidic form of > lactate, lactic acid, cannot be formed under normal circumstances in > human tissues.[citations needed] Analysis of the glycolytic pathway > in humans indicates that there are not enough hydrogen ions present > in the glycolytic intermediates to produce lactic or any other acid. > > The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate > concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction. > When ATP is hydrolysed, a hydrogen ion is released. ATP-derived > hydrogen ions are primarily responsible for the decrease in pH. > During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP > quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, > anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as > it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being > produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering > systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating > a state of acidosis, a natural process which facilitates the easier > dissociation of Oxyhaemoglobin and allows easier transfer of oxygen > from the blood[2]. This may be one factor, among many, that > contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly > after intense exercise.[citations needed] > > The effect of lactate on acidosis has been the topic of many recent > conferences in the field of exercise physiology. Robergs et al. have > accurately chased the proton movement that occurs during glycolysis. > However, in doing so, they have suggested that [H+] is an independent > variable that determines its own concentration. A recent review by > Lindinger et al.[3] has been written to rebut the stoichiometric > approach used by Robergs et al. (2004).[1] In using this > stoichiometric process, Robergs et al. have ignored the causative > factors (independent variables) of the concentration of hydrogen ions > (denoted [H+]). These factors are strong ion difference [sID], PCO2, > and weak acid buffers. Lactate is a strong anion, and causes a > reduction in [sID] which causes an increase in [H+] to maintain > electroneutrality. PCO2 also causes an increase in [H+]. During > exercise, the intramuscular lactate concentration and PCO2 increase, > causing an increase in [H+], and thus a decrease in pH. (See Le > Chatelier's principle) Wikipedia's not 100% accurate, of course, but I'd be interested to see where the extract above is incorrect or misleading such that it may be corrected. Carl Brewer, Melbourne, Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Carl! In a message dated 8/14/2009 6:55:06 A.M. Central America Standard T, carl@... writes: Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate > does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed > onset muscle soreness. It's amazing how some myths remain for so long. For example, many kids competing in the high jump still believe a trial counts if you clear the pit before the bar falls. Several years back, Dwight Stones was stunned to find that even meet officials believed this to be the case. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Carl! In a message dated 8/14/2009 6:55:06 A.M. Central America Standard T, carl@... writes: Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate > does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed > onset muscle soreness. It's amazing how some myths remain for so long. For example, many kids competing in the high jump still believe a trial counts if you clear the pit before the bar falls. Several years back, Dwight Stones was stunned to find that even meet officials believed this to be the case. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Nick! In a message dated 8/14/2009 12:30:04 P.M. Central America Standard , nick.tatalias@... writes: As a kid I never questioned that and filed it away even hurting myself once trying to get off the the matt faster. As a matter of interest was the rule ever that and if it was when did it change. So I take it that if the bar falls the attempt is failed? Thanks for your note! Believe it or not, you are exactly right! It's amazing how many kids have twisted ankles and knees mistakenly believing that a mad scramble off the mat before the bar falls still makes it a legal jump! In my thirty-five years coaching, it has never been a rule. If the bar falls (and wind had not blown it off) it's a miss. But I'll bet if you search the web someone will claim that clearing the pit before the bar falls makes it a legal jump. Where that myth began is a mystery. It could have started some time in the late sixties, with the advent of foam landing pits. In the early sixties, jumpers were still landing in soft dirt or sand. That's kind of unique, when you think we could put men and women into space, but some of the best athletes in the world were still dropping from seven feet into sawdust! One of the interesting rules in this event from the 20's and 30's: no diving or somersaulting. “A fair jump is one where the head of the contestant does not go over the bar before the feet and is not below the buttocks in clearing the bar.†If that rule stayed in place, no Fosbury Flop. The rule was gone by 1935. By the way, some believe that an athlete cannot exit the pit by walking under the bar. That's another myth. It doesn't matter where the athlete exits. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Nick! In a message dated 8/14/2009 12:30:04 P.M. Central America Standard , nick.tatalias@... writes: As a kid I never questioned that and filed it away even hurting myself once trying to get off the the matt faster. As a matter of interest was the rule ever that and if it was when did it change. So I take it that if the bar falls the attempt is failed? Thanks for your note! Believe it or not, you are exactly right! It's amazing how many kids have twisted ankles and knees mistakenly believing that a mad scramble off the mat before the bar falls still makes it a legal jump! In my thirty-five years coaching, it has never been a rule. If the bar falls (and wind had not blown it off) it's a miss. But I'll bet if you search the web someone will claim that clearing the pit before the bar falls makes it a legal jump. Where that myth began is a mystery. It could have started some time in the late sixties, with the advent of foam landing pits. In the early sixties, jumpers were still landing in soft dirt or sand. That's kind of unique, when you think we could put men and women into space, but some of the best athletes in the world were still dropping from seven feet into sawdust! One of the interesting rules in this event from the 20's and 30's: no diving or somersaulting. “A fair jump is one where the head of the contestant does not go over the bar before the feet and is not below the buttocks in clearing the bar.†If that rule stayed in place, no Fosbury Flop. The rule was gone by 1935. By the way, some believe that an athlete cannot exit the pit by walking under the bar. That's another myth. It doesn't matter where the athlete exits. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Ken Obviously I am a believer in fallacy :-). I remember having had that impressed on me as a kid at school, by peers and teachers, after one attempt which seemed to wobble for ever before falling, which would have meant me coming 2nd in a meet. As a kid I never questioned that and filed it away even hurting myself once trying to get off the the matt faster. As a matter of interest was the rule ever that and if it was when did it change. So I take it that if the bar falls the attempt is failed? Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa 2009/8/14 <CoachJ1@...>: > > > Hi Carl! > > In a message dated 8/14/2009 6:55:06 A.M. Central America Standard T, > > carl@... writes: > > Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate >> does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed >> onset muscle soreness. > > It's amazing how some myths remain for so long. For example, many kids > competing in the high jump still believe a trial counts if you clear the pit > before the bar falls. Several years back, Dwight Stones was stunned to find > that even meet officials believed this to be the case. > > Ken Jakalski > Lisle High School > Lisle, IL USA > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Ken Obviously I am a believer in fallacy :-). I remember having had that impressed on me as a kid at school, by peers and teachers, after one attempt which seemed to wobble for ever before falling, which would have meant me coming 2nd in a meet. As a kid I never questioned that and filed it away even hurting myself once trying to get off the the matt faster. As a matter of interest was the rule ever that and if it was when did it change. So I take it that if the bar falls the attempt is failed? Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa 2009/8/14 <CoachJ1@...>: > > > Hi Carl! > > In a message dated 8/14/2009 6:55:06 A.M. Central America Standard T, > > carl@... writes: > > Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate >> does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed >> onset muscle soreness. > > It's amazing how some myths remain for so long. For example, many kids > competing in the high jump still believe a trial counts if you clear the pit > before the bar falls. Several years back, Dwight Stones was stunned to find > that even meet officials believed this to be the case. > > Ken Jakalski > Lisle High School > Lisle, IL USA > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Ken, Nick It certainly is of those re-occurring myths that has stood the test of time and I have had to explain this to teachers and coaches on numerous occasions. As to where it came from, I have tried to discover this on many occasions. I have finally come down to the belief that is was due to a possible but incorrect interpretation of a former rule wording. To the best of my memory in the rules there was a phrase which included the words ........if the bar is dislodged during the course of the jump......... This could be interpreted as if I am off the pit I have completed the jump and if the bar is still on at that point then it must be is a valid clearance.because the bar is still on and the jump has been completed. To me the current wording of the rule has removed that possible ambiguity Interestingly up to a couple of years ago it was possible for an athlete themselves to stop the bar wobbling if they had the confidence to try it (as there was nothing in the rules to stop you). I have also seen many judges put up a white flag when the bar is still wobbling after a jump and then change it to red if the bar then falls off. Usually seen on a windy day when they make the decision it is the wind not the athlete who was to blame. In that case the jump is valid as the judge has indicated a valid trial. Just my 2 cents worth! Denis Doyle Shropshire UK ===================== Re: Lactic acid/lactate Hi Nick! In a message dated 8/14/2009 12:30:04 P.M. Central America Standard , nick.tatalias@... writes: As a kid I never questioned that and filed it away even hurting myself once trying to get off the the matt faster. As a matter of interest was the rule ever that and if it was when did it change. So I take it that if the bar falls the attempt is failed? Thanks for your note! Believe it or not, you are exactly right! It's amazing how many kids have twisted ankles and knees mistakenly believing that a mad scramble off the mat before the bar falls still makes it a legal jump! In my thirty-five years coaching, it has never been a rule. If the bar falls (and wind had not blown it off) it's a miss. But I'll bet if you search the web someone will claim that clearing the pit before the bar falls makes it a legal jump. Where that myth began is a mystery. It could have started some time in the late sixties, with the advent of foam landing pits. In the early sixties, jumpers were still landing in soft dirt or sand. That's kind of unique, when you think we could put men and women into space, but some of the best athletes in the world were still dropping from seven feet into sawdust! One of the interesting rules in this event from the 20's and 30's: no diving or somersaulting. “A fair jump is one where the head of the contestant does not go over the bar before the feet and is not below the buttocks in clearing the bar.†If that rule stayed in place, no Fosbury Flop. The rule was gone by 1935. By the way, some believe that an athlete cannot exit the pit by walking under the bar. That's another myth. It doesn't matter where the athlete exits. ======================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Hi Denis! Thanks for your note! I believe that you may indeed be correct about officials taking a look at the line from the rule: if the bar is dislodged during the course of the jump...and interpreting that exactly as you have noted When I've asked officials about this, their belief regarding this " non-rule " is that, technically, the trial is " over " once the athlete exits the pit. Hence, athletes think that a fast exit of the pit marks the end of the trial, and if the bar falls then, it doesn't matter. You are indeed correct about athletes who used to stop the bar from wobbling because there was no rule prohibiting that. Dave Volz perfected that in the pole vault. In fact, the " technique " was called " Volzing. " Fun discussion! By the way, how many times have you seen kids begin a semi-circular approach in the high jump? To this day, I still see junior high kids starting in the middle of the apron and running a half circle to the bar. Where is that coming from? Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Hi Dennis Thanks for that, you get lawyers in all walks of life arguing the merit of wording. The myth probably started with some one saying I wonder if you got out of the pit before the bar fell if it would be legal.... and today it is " fact " . Regards Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa 2009/8/16 denisdoyle <denis@...>: > > > Ken, Nick > > It certainly is of those re-occurring myths that has stood the test of time > and I have had to explain this to teachers and coaches on numerous > occasions. > > As to where it came from, I have tried to discover this on many occasions. I > have finally come down to the belief that is was due to a possible but > incorrect interpretation of a former rule wording. > > To the best of my memory in the rules there was a phrase which included the > words ........if the bar is dislodged during the course of the > jump......... This could be interpreted as if I am off the pit I have > completed the jump and if the bar is still on at that point then it must be > is a valid clearance.because the bar is still on and the jump has been > completed. > > To me the current wording of the rule has removed that possible ambiguity > > Interestingly up to a couple of years ago it was possible for an athlete > themselves to stop the bar wobbling if they had the confidence to try it (as > there was nothing in the rules to stop you). I have also seen many judges > put up a white flag when the bar is still wobbling after a jump and then > change it to red if the bar then falls off. Usually seen on a windy day when > they make the decision it is the wind not the athlete who was to blame. In > that case the jump is valid as the judge has indicated a valid trial. > > Just my 2 cents worth! > > Denis Doyle > Shropshire UK > > ===================== > > Re: Lactic acid/lactate > > Hi Nick! > > In a message dated 8/14/2009 12:30:04 P.M. Central America Standard , > nick.tatalias@... writes: > > As a kid I never questioned that > and filed it away even hurting myself once trying to get off the the > matt faster. As a matter of interest was the rule ever that and if it > was when did it change. So I take it that if the bar falls the > attempt is failed? > > Thanks for your note! > > Believe it or not, you are exactly right! It's amazing how many kids have > twisted ankles and knees mistakenly believing that a mad scramble off the > mat before the bar falls still makes it a legal jump! > > In my thirty-five years coaching, it has never been a rule. If the bar > falls (and wind had not blown it off) it's a miss. But I'll bet if you > search > the web someone will claim that clearing the pit before the bar falls > makes it a legal jump. > > Where that myth began is a mystery. It could have started some time in > the late sixties, with the advent of foam landing pits. In the early > sixties, > jumpers were still landing in soft dirt or sand. That's kind of unique, > when you think we could put men and women into space, but some of the best > athletes in the world were still dropping from seven feet into sawdust! > > One of the interesting rules in this event from the 20's and 30's: no > diving or somersaulting. “A fair jump is one where the head of the > contestant > does not go over the bar before the feet and is not below the buttocks in > clearing the bar.” If that rule stayed in place, no Fosbury Flop. The > rule > was gone by 1935. > > By the way, some believe that an athlete cannot exit the pit by walking > under the bar. That's another myth. It doesn't matter where the athlete > exits. > ======================= > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Hi Ken Volz's antics were indeed the reason behind the rule change that now forbids the hand holding the bar on. Pretty difficult in the high jump though!!. Semi circular and circle runs are often used as a teaching / training exercise to help an athlete run the curve smoothly. They can often run a semicircular approach better than using a 'conventional' approach run. With limited experience (school level) then the young athletes might consider it natural to take that into the competition arena. In principle I see nothing wrong with it initially. OK it limits approach speed but youngsters don't use that much speed compared to adults. .The only problem is that the usual scenario is for the youngsters start off running a nice semicircle but then ending up with the last three strides almost straight as they notice the bar!! Incidentally Jaraslov Baba (Cz) with best of 2m37 has a form of semi circular run - His first steps are away from the bar - I have seen him run a mere and a half wide of the perpendicular to the bar. It is his way of obtaining a smooth transition into the turn. It will be interesting to see if he has modified his approach run at all when he jumps tomorrow in Berlin Denis Doyle Shropshire UK Re: Lactic acid/lactate > > Hi Denis! > > Thanks for your note! > > I believe that you may indeed be correct about officials taking a look at > the line from the rule: if the bar is dislodged during the course of the > jump...and interpreting that exactly as you have noted > > When I've asked officials about this, their belief regarding this > " non-rule " is that, technically, the trial is " over " once the athlete > exits the > pit. Hence, athletes think that a fast exit of the pit marks the end of > the > trial, and if the bar falls then, it doesn't matter. > > You are indeed correct about athletes who used to stop the bar from > wobbling because there was no rule prohibiting that. > > Dave Volz perfected that in the pole vault. In fact, the " technique " was > called " Volzing. " > > Fun discussion! > > By the way, how many times have you seen kids begin a semi-circular > approach in the high jump? To this day, I still see junior high kids > starting in > the middle of the apron and running a half circle to the bar. Where is > that coming from? > > Ken Jakalski > Lisle High School > Lisle, IL USA > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Hi Denis! In a message dated 8/19/2009 2:10:25 A.M. Central America Standard T, denis@... writes: Semi circular and circle runs are often used as a teaching / training exercise to help an athlete run the curve smoothly. That makes sense. My curiosity over that approach is that seldom do I see it introduced to the kids at the junior high level as learning progression. They can often run a semicircular approach better than using a 'conventional' approach run. Again, that makes sense. Maybe it's just kids figuring it out on their own. At the lower levels, it is not uncommon for schools to have one coach for sixty or more kids. Those who want to high jump are the ones who go to the pits themselves. With limited experience (school level) then the young athletes might consider it natural to take that into the competition arena. That also makes perfect sense. I once asked a junior high kid: " Do you like approaching the bar that way? " His comment: " That's the way I do it in practice. " In principle I see nothing wrong with it initially. OK it limits approach speed but youngsters don't use that much speed compared to adults. . Very true. I think it may be kids simply " figuring things out " on their own. None of them have a clue who Dick Fosbury is, and they aren't watching that much track on TV. This 'figuring things out' seems to be the way track " works. " Often, the technique that emerges comes from the athletes playing around, and if what they do produces favorable results, then the researchers and coaches begin analyzing that technique. Back in the early seventies, I recall how many of the top coaches were commenting that the straddle would always remain because it was technically superior to the flop. The process of trying things out is something Dick Railsback once mentioned to me relative to pole vaulting.. " Years back vaulters were pretty much left on their own, " he noted. He said that at one time the great Pennel thought about taping his top hand to keep it from sliding down. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, IL USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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