Re: seths iep

[Guest guest]

Gail,

It's late (well, ok...only like 9:30...but that's late for me..LOL) and I

probably have lots more to say and will read it all and think it out (gotta

go put Maddie Moo to bed and cuddle with Allie). But the first thing that

comes to my mind is to separate Seth's strengths and weaknesses. Separate

columns. Makes it easier to figure out how to work with the weaknesses and

*use* the stengths!!! More later!!!!

This IS so good, isn't it?!?!? We should ALL do this!!!! If we ALL had a

chance to add input to each ohter's IEP's, we'd do so much better in terms of

planning!!!!

{hugs}

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/19/01 6:21:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

duffey48@... writes:

<< the first thing that

comes to my mind is to separate Seth's strengths and weaknesses. Separate

columns. Makes it easier to figure out how to work with the weaknesses and

*use* the stengths!!! More later!!!! >>

Donna,

Ya know, I did that with the first draft and my eyes kept going to the

weaknesses. I wasn't sure if that was a natural reaction, or just mine. The

weaknesses just seemed to pop off the paper for some reason. When I

alternated them, I had to hunt for a weakness, then a strength was right

there, above and below it. Maybe I just don't like seeing his weaknesses, I

dunno. I don't usually think about what Seth CAN'T do, so seeing all those

together was kind of depressing. But if everyone thinks it should be

presented separately, that's how I will do it because I trust you guys! LOL

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/19/01 9:47:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> Donna,

> Ya know, I did that with the first draft and my eyes kept going to the

> weaknesses. I wasn't sure if that was a natural reaction, or just mine.

> The

> weaknesses just seemed to pop off the paper for some reason. When I

> alternated them, I had to hunt for a weakness, then a strength was right

> there, above and below it. Maybe I just don't like seeing his weaknesses,

> I

> dunno. I don't usually think about what Seth CAN'T do, so seeing all those

> together was kind of depressing. But if everyone thinks it should be

> presented separately, that's how I will do it because I trust you guys!

> LOL

> Gail :-)

I know Gail. I hate that too. I always feel like saying... " WHY do we have

to call them weaknesses? " I mean, how would WE feel if someone sat down and

wrote down OUR weaknesses??? We should think of a better name!! ;-)

Gail, just make the columns for yourself, so that you can then say, when Seth

does this or needs help with that, here's what you have to do. I am of the

mind that it's just not good enough to point out the things they are doing

wrong or not doing at all; obviously they can't figure out how to work with

him on their own. Sheesh!!

<<Knowing that there is no knowledgeable doctor in

this area that has experience with the duel diagnosis, we are requesting

approval to have Seth evaluated by Dr. Capone at Hopkins. Dr.

Capone is a leading authority on the duel diagnosis of down syndrome-autism.

>>

This would be a coup, Gail!!!! Remember we got the SD to pay for half our

visit to Dr. Capone and it took LOTS of work on my part. Letters back and

forth, phone calls, the gathering of information and getting it to them,

letters from my ped and . Good luck on this one. They REALLY don't

like to admit that they aren't capable of doing it themselves!!

<<If this activity is a needed

one, it needs to be adapted to fill Seth's imitative and social needs. This

activity needs to be presented in a fun, vocal and social setting. >>

This one is SO important Gail. I'm still stunned that they are such flat,

unenthusiastic people. Ask them at the table WHY they think this is

appropriate teaching? I wonder if they're like this with their OWN kids.

URGH!! This one makes me mad!!!

<<Actual play time and more modeling of what is

expected of Seth would use his strengths and weaknesses to get more of a

response and imitation from Seth. I'm sure everyone here agrees that playing

is one of the very first forms of communication for any child. >>

Good point Gail. I took a class in child development, never mind being a

Mom. Don't these people learn this too?!?!?!

Well, it SHOULD be obvious to them how well you know Seth Gail. LEt's hope

this hits home to them!!! GOOD LUCK!!!! Let us know their reaction!!

DOnna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 6:31:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

duffey48@... writes:

<< I know Gail. I hate that too. I always feel like saying... " WHY do we

have

to call them weaknesses? " I mean, how would WE feel if someone sat down

and

wrote down OUR weaknesses??? We should think of a better name!! ;-)

Gail, just make the columns for yourself, so that you can then say, when

Seth

does this or needs help with that, here's what you have to do. I am of the

mind that it's just not good enough to point out the things they are doing

wrong or not doing at all; obviously they can't figure out how to work with

him on their own. Sheesh!!

I will do that Donna and take it with me to the meeting and use it as a guide

for anything they throw at me. I THINK I know all of them, but when put on

the spot in a nervous situation, I'm sure I will need reminding! LOL My

list will include each strength and weakness and how to use them, their list

can leave it open to how THEY would use them and we will see just where their

minds travel. LOL Bet they don't travel too far! LOL Yes, let's

brainstorm and come up with another word other than weaknesses. One that

still sounds positive and that doesn't have an immediate reaction of *Oh,

what's wrong with him?* I've been thinking, but just haven't come up with

the right one yet. IDEAS???????

This would be a coup, Gail!!!! Remember we got the SD to pay for half our

visit to Dr. Capone and it took LOTS of work on my part. Letters back and

forth, phone calls, the gathering of information and getting it to them,

letters from my ped and . Good luck on this one. They REALLY don't

like to admit that they aren't capable of doing it themselves!!

I was told that Seth's ped. needs to send a referral and that Medicaid or

insurance should pay, but since I have no problems with anyone BUT the

educators questioning the dx, then they should WANT the 2nd opinion. They

keep saying, *not that the dx matters* Well then, why do they keep bringing

it up? I'll check with his doc on this and see if he will write the referral.

This one is SO important Gail. I'm still stunned that they are such flat,

unenthusiastic people. Ask them at the table WHY they think this is

appropriate teaching? I wonder if they're like this with their OWN kids.

URGH!! This one makes me mad!!!

Yeah, me too Donna. Seth LOVES to play and have fun. If that is the best

way to reach him, why not include it? They don't need to just play all day,

just make his activities more fun for him.

Any other ideas you care to share Donna? I sent a copy of this to one of the

other Moms from Seth's class and she laughed and said, *NEVER*. Said I would

be lucky to have them staple a copy of my request to the IEP they design.

NOT in a million years!

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

At 09:30 AM 10/20/01 EDT, you wrote:

><<Actual play time and more modeling of what is

>expected of Seth would use his strengths and weaknesses to get more of a

>response and imitation from Seth. I'm sure everyone here agrees that playing

>is one of the very first forms of communication for any child. >>

>

>Good point Gail. I took a class in child development, never mind being a

>Mom. Don't these people learn this too?!?!?!

>Well, it SHOULD be obvious to them how well you know Seth Gail. LEt's hope

>this hits home to them!!! GOOD LUCK!!!! Let us know their reaction!!

First, let me begin with a qualifier: What I'm about to say does not excuse

failing to use Seth's strengths to build a program.

IEPs are much like the medical system. they focus on people's deficits

rather than their strengths. They hope to be helpful by improving the

abilities in these weak areas, I guess.

That doesn't mean it can't be changed. But it usually takes a person who is

very focused on the *child* to do it. Often I take each tough area and say

something like, " we know Andy likes to _____. We know he learns by ______.

We know he enjoys _____. How will we write this to include these methods to

make it worth Andy's time to participate? Stymies those uncreative types.

When you feel confident that you are doing well with the group and not

fighting for your place as resident expert on your child, try using the

open ended question approach. You might have some ideas in mind, but rather

than forcing them on the group, give them a chance to problem-solve. It

will give you an inkling of who is willing to try and who is merely going

through the motions.

Anyway.

good luck,

j

[Guest guest]

All I can say is........WOW!!!!

That is an awesome IEP.....I'm saving that one. You did a great job of laying

out what areas need improvement and not slamming them.

Loriann

Wife to Dewight

Mom to , 11 years, Down Syndrome, PDD-NOS and Celiac Disease.

, 2 years and Strong Willed

Both homeschooled.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 6:51:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmedlen@... writes:

<<

First, let me begin with a qualifier: What I'm about to say does not excuse

failing to use Seth's strengths to build a program.

IEPs are much like the medical system. they focus on people's deficits

rather than their strengths. They hope to be helpful by improving the

abilities in these weak areas, I guess.

Joan, can't they succeed in this by using their strengths? Or maybe it's

that one area will always be weak, just like *normal* people have? I can't

spell so I use a dictionary and spell check. I can make up for my weakness

by another means. Can't they use alternative teaching too?

That doesn't mean it can't be changed. But it usually takes a person who is

very focused on the *child* to do it. Often I take each tough area and say

something like, " we know Andy likes to _____. We know he learns by ______.

We know he enjoys _____. How will we write this to include these methods to

make it worth Andy's time to participate? Stymies those uncreative types.

So you think I should rearrange my IEP to let them come up with ideas instead

of handing them to them? What happens if they don't cooperate or come up

with anything. (which is a definite possibility here) LOL Or are you

saying I just should keep focusing back to the strengths and weaknesses when

they go off track? I'm not sure what you mean.

When you feel confident that you are doing well with the group and not

fighting for your place as resident expert on your child, try using the

open ended question approach. You might have some ideas in mind, but rather

than forcing them on the group, give them a chance to problem-solve. It

will give you an inkling of who is willing to try and who is merely going

through the motions.

Anyway.

good luck,

j >>

Gosh, I will never feel confident that I am even welcome to participate, let

alone actually being accepted as knowing what is best for my son. LOL Okay,

going to try to rearrange it so I can give them a chance to brainstorm. I

could keep my ideas on a separate paper for my use, right? Thanks

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 8:30:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

hsmyangels@... writes:

<< All I can say is........WOW!!!!

That is an awesome IEP.....I'm saving that one. You did a great job of

laying out what areas need improvement and not slamming them.

Loriann >>

Loriann,

And NOT slamming them was difficult! LOL Thanks

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Donna wrote:

> I know Gail. I hate that too. I always feel like saying... " WHY do we have

> to call them weaknesses? " I mean, how would WE feel if someone sat down

> and

> wrote down OUR weaknesses??? We should think of a better name!!

Donna, What would you think of " Needs Improvement " instead of " Weaknessses "

thats what they put on the regular progress reports or report cards. You got

me thinking. Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads those IEP's anyways. I forget

myself what is on them if things are going well or so I think.

Gail, just make the columns for yourself, so that you can then say, when

Seth

> oes this or needs help with that, here's what you have to do.   I am of

> the

> mind that it's just not good enough to point out the things they are doing

> wrong or not doing at all; obviously they can't figure out how to work with

> him on their own.   Sheesh!!

>

I loved your suggestion to Gail to have a reply for all the weakness areas. I

will use it myself. thanks.

Diane

[Guest guest]

J. wrote:

> That doesn't mean it can't be changed. But it usually takes a person who is

> very focused on the *child* to do it. Often I take each tough area and say

> something like, " we know Andy likes to _____. We know he learns by ______.

> We know he enjoys _____. How will we write this to include these methods to

> make it worth Andy's time to participate? Stymies those uncreative types.

>

> When you feel confident that you are doing well with the group and not

> fighting for your place as resident expert on your child, try using the

> open ended question approach. You might have some ideas in mind, but rather

> than forcing them on the group, give them a chance to problem-solve. It

> will give you an inkling of who is willing to try and who is merely going

> through the motions.

I am saving this to my files. Good stuff!! My IEP is coming up soon and I

don't want to forget it.

Diane

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 1:48:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> I was told that Seth's ped. needs to send a referral and that Medicaid or

> insurance should pay, but since I have no problems with anyone BUT the

> educators questioning the dx, then they should WANT the 2nd opinion. They

> keep saying, *not that the dx matters* Well then, why do they keep

> bringing

> it up? I'll check with his doc on this and see if he will write the

> referral.

My insurance wouldn't cover it. We're Keystone HMO. Their argument was we

could find the same service here in Philly (Yea Right!!!) So I had to go

through the whole process first of being turned down, then appeal, then

turned down again before I could approach the SD. Also had to do the same

with medical assistance, who won't pay for anything out of state. That was

a fairly easy process. They had no appeal there; that's just their rule.

<<Yeah, me too Donna. Seth LOVES to play and have fun. If that is the best

way to reach him, why not include it? They don't need to just play all day,

just make his activities more fun for him. >>

I think EVERY teacher should teach this way. For ALL kids. Why does it

always have to be so somber??? I guess teaching through fun poses too much

of a challenge for a lot of them!!

<<Any other ideas you care to share Donna? >>

LOL YOu're gonna be sorry you asked!! LOL Nah, only kidding. You've

done SUCH a great job Gail!!!! I DID do up a page for Maddie's

teachers/therapists when she was at KC on " how to approach Maddie and get her

to learn " . Seth is a lot more social than Maddie, so much of what I wrote

was to help them be accepted by her (remember, we had six months where we had

no EI services because she wouldn't let them NEAR her). It was very

descriptive and used examples so they'd have a base to look for (things like,

don't get too close to Maddie--give her space in the beginning, don't corner

her----be playful, Maddie loves horseplay and tickling---be overly animated,

accentuate facial expressions and language--use her favorite things to get

her attention, like balls and things that dangle, hide the ball in your shirt

and let her come find it). In this paper was also a list of things NOT to

do, and I clearly stated the names and situations of those that *messed up*.

LOL Well, last year, with Kathleen and Carol (Maddie's teacher and aide),

life was so rosey and things went so well, I had no need for something like

that. BUT NOW, I have to make up a new one with this new teacher and new

aides. The lifebook is a great tool, but I need a quick reference easy to

read type thing for them to access. So on to doing another one.

Gail, you are doing so well by Seth!!!! I hope that you can get this to

work, not just for Seth's sake, but for all teh other kids in your SD as

well!!!! You're forging a new road on your turf, obviously!!!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 3:35:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> So you think I should rearrange my IEP to let them come up with ideas

> instead

> of handing them to them? What happens if they don't cooperate or come up

> with anything. (which is a definite possibility here) LOL Or are you

> saying I just should keep focusing back to the strengths and weaknesses

> when

> they go off track? I'm not sure what you mean.

>

>

Joan will surely answer you, but this has me thinking. My opinion is that

you should not rearrange the IEP you did (we always need to be there teaching

them---no matter how good they are, because the reality is we know our kids

better than them) and I'm thinking that it might be helpful to give them

advance warning. EVERYBODY, tell me if I'm totally on the wrong track here.

I'm thinking that the IEP team is *supposed* to work together. As

parents, we have to be so cautious so often, of being hoodwinked, or just

plain ignored. That makes the working together theory hard to implement.

BUT ideally, that's what we want. So what if you gave them YOUR plans for

Seth ahead of time, at the same time, throwing the open ended question to

them. In other words, give them a copy of what you wrote BEFORE you meet

with them, saying you want to give them a chance to think and come up with

their ideas BEFORE the IEP meeting. That way, they come to the table

hopefully with IDEAS. You know, give them some homework. I mean, this is

not a due process case (YET) where you ruin your element of surprise....you

want Seth to get a good education. This would also show (in the future)

taht you gave them EVERY opportunity. This is sort of what I'm doing, in

terms of meeting with them before hte meeting, so we can throw our thoughts

to each other, so they know what I expect and want, BEFORE we actually sit

down and try to write the IEP.

Just my thoughts tonight. What's everybody else think about that? This is

good dialogue!!

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 12:56:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

duffey48@... writes:

<< LOL YOu're gonna be sorry you asked!! LOL Nah, only kidding.

You've

done SUCH a great job Gail!!!! I DID do up a page for Maddie's

teachers/therapists when she was at KC on " how to approach Maddie and get

her

to learn " . Seth is a lot more social than Maddie, so much of what I wrote

was to help them be accepted by her (remember, we had six months where we

had

no EI services because she wouldn't let them NEAR her). It was very

descriptive and used examples so they'd have a base to look for (things

like,

don't get too close to Maddie--give her space in the beginning, don't corner

her----be playful, Maddie loves horseplay and tickling---be overly animated,

accentuate facial expressions and language--use her favorite things to get

her attention, like balls and things that dangle, hide the ball in your

shirt

and let her come find it). In this paper was also a list of things NOT to

do, and I clearly stated the names and situations of those that *messed up*.

>>

Very cool Donna. I think I have just assumed that everyone would know how to

deal with Seth, or if one thing didn't work that they would naturally try

another. Guess Not. Most of it just seems so common sense to me. Maybe

THEY need things broken down to the smallest steps? LOL

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 3:56:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

duffey48@... writes:

> I think EVERY teacher should teach this way. For ALL kids. Why does it

> always have to be so somber??? I guess teaching through fun poses too

> much

> of a challenge for a lot of them!!

This is so true!!!! I've seen this in the work place too!!! If you have to

much fun in the work place. Guess that's why I've stayed at home for the last

6 years. No hurry to go back unless its fun.

Diane

>

>

[Guest guest]

Joan,

This is good stuff that you told Gail. Really good stuff. How long have you

been doing this? I hope you've been doing this for years and years. Actually

I hope your just really smart because I don't have years and years to catch

up.

Diane

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 1:59:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmedlen@... writes:

<< Gail.....I do that when I *know* there will be silence. It's especially

rewarding. You see, they will nod at all the things you affirm about how

Seth learns. They will agree that all these things are true.

LOL Ain't it the truth!!!!! LOL

And then, you

ask them to *use* his learning style and natural motivators to encourage

learning something *new* that is a challenge. That's how you write good

goals. It's completely focused on SETH and takes any focus off the adult

personalities. It is also incredibly humiliating if they can't come up with

something because...well...they *are* the professionals.

And if a dialogue begins, then what you have is the beginning of meaningful

collaboration.

But it takes time to get to this place with people. YOu have to reassure

them that you know their life is hard, case load big, but you only have one

child and want the best for him.....blah blah blah.

Tell me if this makes sense.

Joan

>>

Yes, all makes sense Joan, but isn't it such a waste of time and energy just

to make them feel good? I need to come up with goals and objectives for all

the therapies and will have to go this route and can do it on paper, but when

it comes to actually talking, well, I know I won't be so patronizing. LOL

Is it that they have big or little egos that they need to be treated like

this? I hate to be treated like that and just want things honestly laid out,

figure out how to solve the problem and do it. I tell them to just say what

they mean, that it won't hurt my feelings and then I can relate to them

honestly and make some headway. This constantly worrying about hurting

someone's ego is for the birds. A tactful speaker I'm not! LOL so, I'm

gonna have to learn it huh? YUKKKKKKK LOL I loved all your rules for

process. Filed those. Thanks

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 4:34:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

dben937342@... writes:

<< This is good stuff that you told Gail. Really good stuff. How long have

you

been doing this? I hope you've been doing this for years and years. Actually

I hope your just really smart because I don't have years and years to catch

up.

Diane >>

ROTFLOL!!!! Yeah, me too Diane. LOL

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Gail:

I haven't read through your entire thing yet. I've printed it though--and

this weekend, that's a huge thing (I have a nonstop headache after Physical

therapy yesterday).

Anyway. I've read your question and a couple of comments. I tend to forget

that I've been working my way to this spot for years.

First. When is the IEP?

Here are my rules for process:

1. I ask them to give me their drafted goals no later than one week ahead

of time. Not everyone does, but when they don't, it just means more

meetings and embarassment.

2. If I receive the goals ahead of time, I go over them and think about

Andy. I think about how it will fit into the day, how " naturally occuring "

it is or is not, and whether I like it. If I don't like it, I rewrite it.

But I always give suggestions rather than demands. (later I will upload a

file that shows this process...).

3. If I don't receive them ahead of time, I let them tell me what they're

thinking and show me their goals and then...when everyone'ds done, I thank

them for their time, tell them I must take this home to digest it--it is

far too much for me to assimilate in this meeting--and ask them to set a

date to talk to me individually and then to reconvene. (the individual

thing can happen on the phone). I tell them I will give them feedback on

their goals in 2 days that they can then look over. They're welcome to fax

me any changes after that before we reconvene.

4. I point out that pre-meeting communication--sharing PLOP statements,

thoughts, and goals prior to IEP meetings saves everyone time.

5. And if they don't like my changes and don't take them into consideration

at the following meeting, I make them look stupid by asking leading

questions. " Are you saying that carrying a portable urinal with me whever I

go is more important than carrying communiation tools? Because I can only

carry so much when I'm at the store... "

The open-ended question also works at this moment. The OT last year had no

idea how to write a goal for Andy. Surely teaching pre-handwriting and

handwriting isn't this difficult, but she just couldn't do it. Her big goal

was to have him pick up a pencil and put it " nicely " (meaning in a slow,

controlled fashion) in a container. My point was that if the pencil gets in

the container, even if he lobs it like a javelin, in Andy's eye, he ha met

her request.

So I said something like this:

" We know that Andy is at a parallel stage of invovlement. We know that Andy

likes to do things with his regular ed peers. We know that Andy enjoys

being a part of a group. We know that he hates all things fine motor. We

know that his interest in the writing aspect is minimal. How can we write a

goal that frames things to use his interests that to teach him X skill with

reasonable assurance that there is a 95% chance he'll be able to do it? " If

they have ideas we work with them and then we list the necessary components

to success.

Gail.....I do that when I *know* there will be silence. It's especially

rewarding. You see, they will nod at all the things you affirm about how

Seth learns. They will agree that all these things are true. And then, you

ask them to *use* his learning style and natural motivators to encourage

learning something *new* that is a challenge. That's how you write good

goals. It's completely focused on SETH and takes any focus off the adult

personalities. It is also incredibly humiliating if they can't come up with

something because...well...they *are* the professionals.

And if a dialogue begins, then what you have is the beginning of meaningful

collaboration.

But it takes time to get to this place with people. YOu have to reassure

them that you know their life is hard, case load big, but you only have one

child and want the best for him.....blah blah blah.

Tell me if this makes sense.

Joan

[Guest guest]

At 07:48 PM 10/20/01 EDT, you wrote:

>Yes, all makes sense Joan, but isn't it such a waste of time and energy just

>to make them feel good?

It's not a waste of time if the outcome is a well-written IEP with SEth at

the center of it.

I never said I don't give detailed suggestions in between meetings. I'll

upload some files tonight. I have written Pat Oelwein's reading strategy

into IEP form--provided it. They included it, but never used it.

If you include them in the writing process, they are more apt to actually

*do* what you write. That's what I've learned.

I will also upload the four or so page list of goals I wrote (rather

sarcastically) for the OT. She thought my expectations were unrealistic, so

I put them in perspective for her.

But right now I need to get a boy in the tub.

Good things are worth working for. It *does* take time. But when you take

the time to USE the process, others learn from it. After doing this for a

few years, I now only spend 2 hours at actual IEP meetings. And...the

special ed director doesn't question what I do at all. In fact, she takes

my side more often than her staff--because she knows I'm thorough and

pratical.

The fights are greatly reduced...which is good for thefamily.

j

[Guest guest]

At 07:32 PM 10/20/01 EDT, you wrote:

How long have you

>been doing this? I hope you've been doing this for years and years. Actually

>I hope your just really smart because I don't have years and years to catch

>up.

Diane & all:

This is a process that keeps evolving for me. I began years ago...say 6

years agol to ask for the goals before the meeting. They didn't take me

seriously until I started putting it in writing. I've had a couple of good

situations where staff is willing to work things through rather than be

know-it-alls and want to fight. I think inclusion is better for this if the

folks you are working with see the benefits to including a kid.

It helps to get to know the people in the chain of command as well.

Volunteer for parent committees. I had a back door in. My mother used to

run the vision program here. I only played that card when things were

really nasty--I would call the director of sped (then a guy) who I'd known

since before I was married and ask him to call off the dogs. But the new

director--new last year-- is a different story. She and I have a colleague

in common who made the introduction. But she's been great. I don't call on

her often--twice I think. She really wants to see the outcomes change for

the kids and get out of the rut of going to court over everything. She

still makes people mad and all, but I know that if she had her way school

would look more like parents want. (she's the parent of a grown child with

LD). She's already done some good things that make staff mad like insist

that they return phone calls. Imagine.

Anyway.

It takes time. You have to learn your system. Learn how it works--where are

the committees, how do you access AAC or AT or whatever. What's the

decision making tree look like. Then you frame things so that it fits the

ssystem. If there's a weakness in the system from a business or

organizational standpoint, acknowledge it and work with it.

The more I look at Andy's IEP as a care planning meeting for my job as a

dietitian, th easier it was to do. You have to gloss over the insults as

much as possible--and that's hard when you're establishing rapport. I've

said things like, " That's an insulting comment. " before. Last year I took

someone to task tactfully for saying, " since you're the only one who has

seen him do X.... " After a few minutes of mulling, I finally said that I

didn't like being called a liar when we had a portfolio of examples showing

this emerging skill. The sped teacher took her cue and ran over toget the

file so we could all look at it. But before we did, the person I challenged

said she didn't think she did that. So I asked her how she could not

understand how that sounds.....we talked and I saw heads nodding. I

explained how I go through this year after year; that if I think something

is emerging, shouldn't that be seen as an *opportunity* to be grabbed

rather than discounting that it might be there? Shouldn't we be looking for

signs that it might have shown up at school too? What could we do to draw

this out of the child?

The investigative questions that show real intent for teaching and

expanding a child to their potential just don't happen. It's sad that we

have to teach taht, but we do.

whew! That was a lot of hot air.

j

[Guest guest]

At 05:11 PM 10/20/01 -0700, you wrote:

>At 07:48 PM 10/20/01 EDT, you wrote:

>>Yes, all makes sense Joan, but isn't it such a waste of time and energy

just

>>to make them feel good?

One more thing.....

When I am working with folks and reassuring them that I understand the

trouibles they have in their job and the obstacles to over come, etc, I do

it to validate their worries. When you do that you let them know you want

to work with them. Unfortunately, adults come to meetings with their own

life in their hands, with their own agenda--rarely do they come to the

table with the child's best interest in the front of their thoughts. This

is human nature. They're doing a *job.* They don't want to get in trouble

for what they are doing in their *job.* None of us want to get in trouble

at work. They want to look good for their superiors. It's their

*job*...their livelyhood.

Yep, it's my *life.* But in my *life* when I do my *job* I try to do my

best as my superiors have defined it...right? So we have to remember that

they want that too. By allaying their fears and setting up the environment

for two-way communication and collaboration, they will be doing their *job*

even **better**.

Yeah, it's a lot of work. But when I go to work at the hospital, I wish

folks understood that I had to work within the confines of my *job* too. I

can't get them meds. I can only mess with their foods.

Something to think about.

Joan

[Guest guest]

I think the strengths/weaknesses should be organized in some way, but

it might be better to split them by skill area, such as:

communication, sensory, play, social, motor, daily living, academic,

etc (Well, that may be more areas than necessary, but you get the

idea). By splitting it up by skill area, you can avoid making the

list of what Seth " can't do " . Hopefully it will show what he can do

in each area and which skills he needs to develop or expand.

Let me preface the next suggestions by saying I am the queen of

diplomacy. I try to never upset or offend people while still trying

to get my point across. I don't know your current situation with

your school district, but from what you've written, it sounds like

the school is not very supportive. Nonetheless, you might want to

change a few things to avoid putting them on the defensive. The two

things I'd consider changing/re-wording are:

>Since this activity is already done in a one on one

> setting, there is no added cost to provide Seth with his

individualized

> education.

**I have never encountered a school that will out right admit that

they won't do XYZ because it costs too much ...you might want to just

make a general statement that the changes you are suggesting will not

cost more than what they are already doing.

>We feel, again, that

> Seth's strengths and weaknesses (section 1) need to be used in this

area.

**By telling them repeatedly to look at the strengths/needs section,

you sound a little condescending to them ...while the school may

deserve the condescending tone, this tone might put them further on

the defensive. They may end up even less willing to make changes.

Maybe you could start each section by stating the strength or need

that applies. Someone else suggested something like " Since Seth

likes/learns by doing ____ ... " I really like this approach. Plus it

has the added benefit of telling them exactly which skill or need

they should be considering.

**Again, my disclaimer - I could be totally wrong on these

impressions. I don't know your district or your history with them.

If the relationship is already adversarial, the above suggestion may

not make a difference ...or maybe you will have more success with

your stronger/more adversarial tone.

Arts & Crafts - I have no idea what your school is doing for arts &

crafts, but I hate to see it eliminated completely. Could you

suggest alternative ways of doing arts & crafts? At my school, we

use art & music as a " tool " for meeting the child's needs. If a

child is tactiley defensive, he would be introduced to various

textures in art. If he is working on crossing midline, he might work

on crossing midline while painting (or banging on a drum if in

music). I guess if Seth absolutely hates art, you might want to

totally eliminate it, but art is supposed to be fun. Maybe the type

of art activities are just too structured.

Home Program - When requesting a home program, you might be more

successful if you ask for programming for specific skills or

activities. Perhaps it could be written into the IEP that you will

have a monthly " home program " conference with Seth's

teacher/therapists (or some other way to ensure communication &

training for both you and them). As a therapist, I can tell you that

I focus on what I see needs to be improved ...and since I work with

the kids at school and not in their homes, I " see " the school needs

more clearly so the school program gets higher priority. While we

strive to set up home programs for all the kids, often the home

programs aren't developed until there is a significant

problem/concern at home ...and then the program is developed to deal

with the problem (not necessarily to improve the child's

functioning). So I guess what I'm recommending is looking at your

home life and identifying exactly what you'd like addressed through a

home program: communication, dressing skills, toileting,

toothbrushing, etc, etc ...be very specific. Also, a highly

recommend a regularly scheduled meeting/phone call to ensure that the

home program doesn't get forgotten as the year progresses.

One last thing ...what is " knil " ?

--Joyce

> A. Knil------Since we now know Seth's strengths and weaknesses

(section 1)

> and using them to best help Seth, we now understand that this

activity is

> antisocial, anti-vocal and anti-communicative.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/21/01 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

wagginpitbull@... writes:

> So I guess what I'm recommending is looking at your

> home life and identifying exactly what you'd like addressed through a

> home program: communication, dressing skills, toileting,

> toothbrushing, etc, etc ...be very specific. Also, a highly

> recommend a regularly scheduled meeting/phone call to ensure that the

> home program doesn't get forgotten as the year progresses

>

> Loved these suggestions about home program. We are just starting to address

> these issues. I was wondering if you can teach Diplomacy? LOL Sometimes in

> the heat of the moment I say things that may not be very diplomatic. I do

> like to see the other sides point of view though. I always hope that the

> school will understand that this is more than just a job for us parents.

> And, I think they do most times. I do respect teachers/therapists that know

> how to teach. They are a gold mine. We've had more good than bad thank

> goodness.

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/21/01 4:15:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

wagginpitbull@... writes:

<< I think the strengths/weaknesses should be organized in some way,

Joyce, working on it. LOL I think I'm doing strengths and needs. Maybe the

word *needs* sounds better?

Arts & Crafts - I have no idea what your school is doing for arts &

crafts, but I hate to see it eliminated completely. Could you

suggest alternative ways of doing arts & crafts?

Seth gets sensory integration every day. He explores tubs of different

mediums. It's just not done in a fun way. No one really models the play for

the kids or plays with them. They just set the table up with different tubs

and the kids are led from station to station, quietly. This has still helped

a lot with his sensory issues, but the social and vocal aspect is in need of

improvement. LOL In art, it's just hand over hand stuff to get the project

done and hung up. Six little pictures that look EXACTLY alike hanging in the

hall. It's done so quickly that there is no chance for the kids to really

explore the medium they are working with.

One last thing ...what is " knil " ?

--Joyce

Knil is a music activity that works on increasing the child's imitation

skills. The same music is played each time and every time a different beat

comes on, the kids do a different activity. Like, touch their knees, touch

their toes, rub their belly etc.... But these kids have been doing the same

thing, in silence with no emotion shown for 4 years now, and have not

progressed AT ALL. Thanks for the suggestions, I'm revising my paper.

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

nathan's teacher usese something that measures

abilities, during an activity, like if he runs an

errand tothe office, the secretary will fillout, there

is probably 10things i think, will have to find his

latest one, says things like waited patiently for

instructions, or greeted person, eye contact, etc,

and they get " + " or " - " if i remember right nathan

only had three minuses last one. these hlep show how

they are doing in areas for as they get older will do

similair things inthe work training field too to see

whre they eill fit the best, a better match.

--- smilinggail@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/21/01 4:15:12 PM Pacific

> Daylight Time,

> wagginpitbull@... writes:

>

> << I think the strengths/weaknesses should be

> organized in some way,

>

> Joyce, working on it. LOL I think I'm doing

> strengths and needs. Maybe the

> word *needs* sounds better?

>

> Arts & Crafts - I have no idea what your school is

> doing for arts &

> crafts, but I hate to see it eliminated completely.

> Could you

> suggest alternative ways of doing arts & crafts?

>

> Seth gets sensory integration every day. He

> explores tubs of different

> mediums. It's just not done in a fun way. No one

> really models the play for

> the kids or plays with them. They just set the

> table up with different tubs

> and the kids are led from station to station,

> quietly. This has still helped

> a lot with his sensory issues, but the social and

> vocal aspect is in need of

> improvement. LOL In art, it's just hand over hand

> stuff to get the project

> done and hung up. Six little pictures that look

> EXACTLY alike hanging in the

> hall. It's done so quickly that there is no chance

> for the kids to really

> explore the medium they are working with.

>

>

> One last thing ...what is " knil " ?

>

> --Joyce

>

> Knil is a music activity that works on increasing

> the child's imitation

> skills. The same music is played each time and

> every time a different beat

> comes on, the kids do a different activity. Like,

> touch their knees, touch

> their toes, rub their belly etc.... But these kids

> have been doing the same

> thing, in silence with no emotion shown for 4 years

> now, and have not

> progressed AT ALL. Thanks for the suggestions,

> I'm revising my paper.

> Gail :-)

>

=====

shawna

__________________________________________________