Re: shoes are such a big deal LOL

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/11/01 1:08:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

ICANFIELD@... writes:

> The teacher would always

> say the same thing " CAN NOT GIVE IN "

I actually had it written in Maddie's EI IEP that she was to have no *no's*,

only redirection. I had my SI therapist write up a bit about how Maddie

already had too many self-imposed no's just by virtue of her sensory

deficits. She's older now and does understand no...........not the word

mind you, but our reaction.

Donna

[Guest guest]

<<. This whole transition mess would never had occu!

red if I had simply let her do the transition ritual. >>

Hi Cheryl,

I agree. I used to think that it would save time to just do it my way.

I find that it is a minor thing and actually takes less time than if I

fight it, to let Ted have his way when it isn't harming anybody. I had a

unpleasant few moments when I told the aide on the bus to stop getting up

from her seat in the back to come to the bus door and tell Ted to hurry up

in a not so nice tone. She started to argue with me when I said this.

Telling me I just let Ted do whatever he wants. He just wants to hug each

kid goodbye. I sometimes have up to 5 soo...hehe I told her I wouldn't

have this discussion in front of Ted and all my daycare kids and would call

her boss. Now she stays in her seat and it is much better.

[Guest guest]

What is inappropriate about teaching our kids appropriate social

behavior (or allowing the schools to do so, if we choose not to take

that responsibility upon ourselves)? Maybe the question should

be, " Why has this boy been going barefooted at school for the last

four years? " Perhaps I missed something here, but what is the big

deal? How is this abuse?

I do think, however, that he should have had his shoes off during nap

time because that would have demonstrated appropriate behavior. I am

also bothered that the rest of the kids were ignored during this

time.Maybe they should have called in a specialist who could deal

with this issue more effectively. I don't see why they should have

ignored it, however. But I can't see that what they did was as

inappropriate as so many on this list think.

(My own son is obsessed with taking his shoes off, too.I make him

wear them only in certain situations. The rest of the time he goes

barefooted.)

Janice

[Guest guest]

At 06:12 PM 10/11/01 -0000, you wrote:

>What is inappropriate about teaching our kids appropriate social

>behavior (or allowing the schools to do so, if we choose not to take

>that responsibility upon ourselves)? Maybe the question should

>be, " Why has this boy been going barefooted at school for the last

>four years? " Perhaps I missed something here, but what is the big

>deal? How is this abuse?

Folks vary in waht they feel is appropriate treatment of their children. If

this person wanted to teach teh child to wear his shoes, the more

respectful approach would be to work on it in an incremental fashion. This

would also probably be accompanied by a visual sequence or schedule that

will help this young man undrestand what is being asked of him. Simply

forcing him to because we are bigger does not " teach " anything.

Step one: functional times to wear the shoes (hallways and outside). Cue

child to put socks and shoes on (maybe start withjust socks) visually 30

seconds before. Should occur MINUTES before going out into the hallway

(rather than a half-hour ahead).

Step two: Keep shoes on until you get to a specific spot in the classroom

and then cue to take them off. Continue to put them on before leaving the

room.

Step three: delay going to that spot to take off shoes by 5 minutes. Engage

in a favorite activity to distract from the shoe issue.

and so on.

But let me ask you this: If teachers are allowed to take their shoes off

and teach in their shoes if they want to, why can't kids participate in

classroom activities with their shoes off? Why is keeping shoes ON inside

necessary behavior?

I personally would save this level of a battle with my son for much more

important things like going to the bathroom, learning to wash his hands, or

whatever. But I never traumatize my son in the course of teachng. This

child sounds traumatized. If it's OK with the Mom, great. My bet is the Mom

has no idea.

When was the last time you did something that was extremely uncomfortable

for you physically and the reason was: " because I told you to " ? Is it OK to

tell your other kids to wear clothes taht are two sizes too small and cut

into their waist and demand polite perfect behavior while they are

uncomfortable all day? Same idea.

There's no teaching going on in this approach. There's no success for the

child. There's absolutely nothing positive that I can find in the method

being used for the child.

I believe in respectful teaching for all people of all ages.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/11/01 2:19:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

janicen@... writes:

> I don't see why they should have

> ignored it, however. But I can't see that what they did was as

> inappropriate as so many on this list think.

I think holding a child down and forcing shoes on him is indeed abuse. I

think holding down ANY child is abuse. I recognize that sometimes it might

seem necessary to hold a child in terms of his/her own safety, but this is

different. Let me ask you this? If the school where you send your NDA

child felt compelled to use physical force to achieve their perceived goal,

would you approve? Strongarming kids doesn't make you a good educator; it

only proves your weaknesses.

Donna

[Guest guest]

I think they shouldn't worry about keeping the shoes

on, if the children are learning and can't stand to

keep their shoes on. But I know the state rules, and

in school rules are different.

=====

My turn to learn is an invaluable guide for parents and professional who share

their lives with a child with special needs.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Janice ,

I hear ya , I would of thought exactly the same way and would of

agreed with how it was approached by the teacher in wanting her

student to wear his shoes , but the timing was wrong . It should not

have been forceful . Maybe, this is the TIME for him to get use to

wearing shoes . It should of been approached slowly and I agree with

Joan it should of been worked around for him to understand , the

steps suggested also would also be a good trial . The teacher was

doing her job but it should of been done differently . Excuse me as

I couldn't resist responding to this , I just have those unhappy

memories when my son was approached like that . You know what ? I'm

still friends with most of my sons past teachers and aides , we still

stay in touch . When I fill them in about now , they just

can't believe how much research I've found out on this behavior due

to his dual dx and they are just stunned . Its just finding ways in

solving the no shoe issue but not forceful . If I remember correctly

this boy did not have any behavior issues . Ok , just needed to think

out loud . Glad you were able to work around your son on the same

issue , good job . Take care.

Irma, 13,DS/ASD.

> What is inappropriate about teaching our kids appropriate social

> behavior (or allowing the schools to do so, if we choose not to

take

> that responsibility upon ourselves)? Maybe the question should

> be, " Why has this boy been going barefooted at school for the last

> four years? " Perhaps I missed something here, but what is the big

> deal? How is this abuse?

>

> I do think, however, that he should have had his shoes off during

nap

> time because that would have demonstrated appropriate behavior. I

am

> also bothered that the rest of the kids were ignored during this

> time.Maybe they should have called in a specialist who could deal

> with this issue more effectively. I don't see why they should have

> ignored it, however. But I can't see that what they did was as

> inappropriate as so many on this list think.

>

> (My own son is obsessed with taking his shoes off, too.I make him

> wear them only in certain situations. The rest of the time he goes

> barefooted.)

>

> Janice

[Guest guest]

Hi there

We also have the barefoot problem, shoes and socks come off the second they

go on. I usually put them on as soon as we've reached the bus stop and they

come off as soon as he is seated in the bus. Last year our school had some

uni students spending time at the school and it was decided that one student

would dedicate her time on Leigh keeping his shoes on, she worked with him

for 10 weeks and longest time we got is 45mins. I don't mind around the

house but hate it when we at shopping centres etc..

Sophie mum of Leigh 10 (ds/asd/pica) and 5

Re: shoes are such a big deal LOL

> What is inappropriate about teaching our kids appropriate social

> behavior (or allowing the schools to do so, if we choose not to take

> that responsibility upon ourselves)? Maybe the question should

> be, " Why has this boy been going barefooted at school for the last

> four years? " Perhaps I missed something here, but what is the big

> deal? How is this abuse?

>

> I do think, however, that he should have had his shoes off during nap

> time because that would have demonstrated appropriate behavior. I am

> also bothered that the rest of the kids were ignored during this

> time.Maybe they should have called in a specialist who could deal

> with this issue more effectively. I don't see why they should have

> ignored it, however. But I can't see that what they did was as

> inappropriate as so many on this list think.

>

> (My own son is obsessed with taking his shoes off, too.I make him

> wear them only in certain situations. The rest of the time he goes

> barefooted.)

>

> Janice

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/12/01 4:33:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

smenegatos@... writes:

> We also have the barefoot problem, shoes and socks come off the second they

> go on. I usually put them on as soon as we've reached the bus stop and they

> come off as soon as he is seated in the bus. Last year our school had some

> uni students spending time at the school and it was decided that one student

> would dedicate her time on Leigh keeping his shoes on, she worked with him

> for 10 weeks and longest time we got is 45mins. I don't mind around the

> house but hate it when we at shopping centres etc..

>

> Sophie

Sophie,

Shoes are an issue with Maddie as well, but she mostly just takes them off

in the cab ride to school. He simply puts them back on her when they get

there. I have always found that simple distraction works with Maddie. For

instance, instead of forcing them on her when I know she'll just take them

off the first opportunity, we play with them first. I stuff the little

beany baby in the sneaker, and BB takes a ride in it. We giggle a lot, then

BB gets shoved in a pocket and OH that's so funny!!!!! Then BB goes into

our shirt....at this point Mom will sneak on the shoe. Might take extra

time, but it makes for a happier child on her way to school, which can set

the whole tone of the day and how she learns. I just firmly believe in

finding methods other than force. BTW, we don't have to do this every day,

just when she's putting up a fuss over the shoes. And it's not always the

same, it would get boring otherwise. That's just an example. You know,

with my 4 other kids, I have no problem telling them they have to comply.

They all go/went to Catholic schools. It just doesn't work with Maddie.

Just sharing what works for us!!

Donna

[Guest guest]

Well, with no luck in getting the boys phone number to inform his parents, I

have written a letter with all of my observations of the classroom and have

delivered it to the head of BOCES. She called me within an hour of

receiving the news. LOL We talked and she said under NO circumstances is

any child allowed to have their shoes off in school, that it was keeping with

the fire codes. I asked * Not even if it's written in their IEP*? She said

that it would never be allowed to be written into anyone's IEP, in keeping

within the law. I asked about art class, when they paint their feet for

footprint art. I asked about brushing and joint compression for sensory. I

asked about nap time. She didn't know about those times. Isn't school like

a second home? We always have our shoes off at home. Like Maddie, Seth

takes his off while riding too. BUT, if we are in a store or out in a public

place, he keeps them on. It's not an issue to put them back on him once

removed either. It would be if I tried to make him wear his shoes at home.

Not only am I not willing to put any of us through the upset that would

cause, I'm also not willing to keep my shoes on all day to set the example

for him. As my daughters wouldn't either. I was in Seth's class, behind a

closed door, talking with his teacher yesterday. The *forceful* teacher

opened the door and said to me * You spoke with ?* I said, yes, I

did. She just says a really snotty Uh uh, and left. Well, THAT was

professional! LOL What was that all about? LOL And I have noticed a lot

of teachers slide their shoes off while they are sitting down working with a

child. I guess it's okay for them to get a little relief, but not the kids.

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/12/01 11:12:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> The *forceful* teacher

> opened the door and said to me * You spoke with ?* I said, yes, I

> did. She just says a really snotty Uh uh, and left. Well, THAT was

> professional! LOL What was that all about?

JEEZ Gail. She sure shows a lot of maturity doesn't she!!! Did the head

of BOCES have any comment to the fact that they held this boy down? Well,

good for you Gail, for sticking to your principles. They sure know now that

you are watching.

Donna

[Guest guest]

Hi Gail,

I would just for the record look up that law. I never heard of anything so

ridiculous in my life. What a poor excuse to justify a teacher's actions.

Charlyne

Mom to Zeb DS-? 8

[Guest guest]

hoW awful gail! nathan obsesses with his shoes all the

time and they just take them off at school, as we do

anywhere else too, i think i would call that poor boys

parents for sure! this school sounds rediculous and

that head sp ed guy oooh mmmyy g..... get a aclue!!!!

i would have quite a few words to say most definately.

shawna

--- smilinggail@... wrote:

> Well, I've been checking out this new classroom to

> see if it is the right

> place for Seth. Now, our district uses the TEACHH

> program and I know it

> stresses no power struggles or restraint holds

> unless the child is in a

> safety situation and it needs to be done to keep

> them or someone else safe

> and it is written in the IEP with the parents

> consent. A little boy in

> their, age 7, took off his shoes, as he has for the

> past 4 years in school

> without a big deal made of it. This new teacher and

> her male student teacher

> cornered him like an animal and she held is arms

> while the male put his shoes

> back on him. For the next 30 minutes or more, he

> was physically restrained

> from taking his shoes off again. The two of them

> stayed with him while the

> rest of the class ( 6-1-1) was left on their own.

> This little boy has no

> behavior plan that states they can use physical

> restraint on him. In fact,

> he has had no behavior problems for at least the

> past 2 years. I went back

> in this afternoon to observe again and come nap

> time, all the kids were

> allowed to take their shoes off, except this little

> boy, who cried, kicked

> and screamed to have them off. I said to the

> teacher * for the last four

> years he has had his shoes off for naptime, do you

> really think he

> understands any of this. Maybe it's a sensory need

> he needs to have filled?*

> She said, he has to learn to keep his shoes on and

> it wasn't a sensory

> thing because if he has his shoes off he is fine.

> WELL DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Then get the stupid shoes off him and let the

> behaviors stop. LOL How

> stupid can these people be? I suggested maybe let

> him have his shoes off,

> then give him his pic for a walk and say shoes on

> first and do that every

> time he takes them off so maybe the time could be

> stretched to have him keep

> his shoes on without a problem. Maybe brush his

> feet or rub lotion on them

> and try the shoes again. There are so many other

> ways to handle the

> situation. She said no, having shoes off in school

> is not appropriate. Man

> I hate that word! My heart aches for that little

> boy who has a whole year

> ahead with this STUPID teacher. Not the room for

> Seth, for sure. Makes me

> wonder if they do this while I am there to observe

> for placement for my son,

> what do they do when there is not a parent in the

> room. Seth doesn't have a

> behavior plan because he has never shown one was

> needed. Well, he is getting

> one for ANY possible situation that might arise.

> This little boy never had a

> problem until this teacher tried to change something

> he has done for 4 years.

> Oh, and just to let you know exactly what I'm

> dealing with in this great

> district. At Seth's IEP review last week I

> mentioned the heading of

> socialization for Seth. LOL The head of the sp.

> ed. said I quote........He

> gets his socialization ... he rides the bus to

> school everyday. LOL

> Yeppers, he sits in the front seat, hi back, on the

> inside seat with the aide

> sitting on the aisle seat. He gets 100% more

> socialization playing with his

> shoe. LOL Not to be negative, but haven't we made

> any gains yet?

> Gail :-)

>

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