RE: Arthur Caplan Wrote Vaccines should be mandated for homeschooled

September 13, 2007

Kendra,

this is amazing. I’m printing this off and putting it up next to my desk.

I am so sorry, I didn’t realize you

lost a baby as well as had a child with autism.

What has always amazed me is that the

vaccine proponents don’t advocate for more effective vaccines. Instead

they put the blame on parents of unvaxed kids.

Becky

Arthur Caplan

Wrote Vaccines should be mandated for homeschooled

My original email to him;

It's not an accident

that homeschooled children are not vaccinated, many children are homeschooled

for that very reason. Not vaccinating is the goal, not the consequence.

Pushing vaccination

will only force parents farther out, not bring them into the fold. It's

time in this nation we recognize parent's rights to make choices for their

children. The risks we are told are so small, until it's your child that

is damaged or dead from vaccines and suddenly for you the risk was 100%.

Then we are told our child was a necessary sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in

the war on disease. Their deaths don't make the nightly news, they are

hushed and hidden from public scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from

vaccinating. But let one child in America have the

measles and it is national news, a crisis. If a child dies, God forbid,

it is considered prosecutable child neglect, but our dead children from

vaccination don't warrant investigation, acknowledgement, or even a passing

word on the local nightly news.

Selective memory,

tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is up, there is no longer any trust

between parents and government when it comes to vaccines. The numbers

will continue to fall even outside of Homeschoolers and will continue until the

real truth about vaccines is told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name

it.

His answer to me;

when you dont mandate

this is what you get

meningitis alone in children

under 18

Death

rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year, 70 per month, 16 per week, 2 per day

Mortality

rate: 25% in

neonates

nearly all preventible

no vaccine kills 849

kids per year

Arthur Caplan

Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics

Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and

Director Center for Bioethics

University of Pennsylvania

3401 Market St. Suite 320

Phila PA 19104-3308

http://bioethics.upenn.edu/

My answer to him tonight;

We will never know how

many people die from vaccines a year, since even when a child dies within 24

hours following multiple vaccines, it is called SIDS. Even in our

families case where in two different children the reactions were immediate, in

the doctors office, immediately following vaccination, in one case they initially

tried to claim it was somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have

happened at that very moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ

failure, and death, as if that could somehow happen naturally and out of the

blue. When they can deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the

reaction 10 days after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine

deaths will never ever be truly recorded.

And as more and more

people see the attitudes of the medical community and the pharmaceutical companies,

such as in our case the advice, " just have another baby " as if you

can just replace the lost or damaged ones, they have no real value.

We are experiencing in

our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-polar disorder, childhood

schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent diabetes, and even adult disorders in

children like MS and skyrocketing cancer rates. It is now rare to meet a

children without a " disorder " of some kind. No one has any

answers for this except to try to convince us that these devastating disorders

have always been there and that somehow we are just now recognizing them.

Like autism could be subtly missed. Even if we called it something else

and it is " diagnostic substitution " our schools would have still had

to deal with these children, no matter what their label. That is a

fact. But we know, school districts are being crushed under the load of

neurological disorders and learning disabilities. Some schools can

no longer take in any more, no matter the seriousness. Special Ed

experts that believed they would never see a case of Autism in their entire

careeers, now juggle caseloads of Autistic kids. The schools are

going broke and there is no end in sight. In some areas where I live

in Oregon there are " hot spots " where Autism is

actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county

1/3 of all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism,

bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of 500 to

1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these towns our

entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-polar, or

childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the

child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off unbeknownst to

the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see now. These

same tiny towns now have overflowing " Autism Classrooms " and the

schools have established " drug cubbies " for the children where each

child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time distribution,

Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine kits for severe food

allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too common.

So the answer is to

try to convince us that our memories are faulty, that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an

entire generation of kids that are " stuck on sick " has always been

there and we simply don't remember our childhood correctly.

When the CDC doesn't

like the results of their own epidemiological study, they do 4 more generations

to get rid of the link from thimerisol to Autism, and they wonder why they

aren't convincing parents. Why did they add in one generation, 1 to 3

year olds knowing they wouldn't have a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in

another generation of study the 16,000 kids originally excluded because they

had been born with a birth defect? Why did they in another generation of

the study, decide to only count " original " diagnosis, so if a child

has a speech delay at 18 months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would

not be counted as Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for

the freedom of information act or people might have actually believed that

they had not found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

Then they tell the

American public that parent's testimonials are untrusworthy, emotional, and

traumatically induced " anectdotal " information. Really?

We put men to death in this country based on emotional and traumatically

induced " eye-witness testimony " . Our experiences are just that,

" eye witness testimony " . The denials of our testimonies speak

more to profit margins than fact or reality.

All they have to do is

scientifically test thimerisol for safety, as this has never been done in

history, and still has not. Not epidemiology but real science. Why

do they still refuse to do that? All they have to do is stop using our

kids as guinea pigs, such as the HPV where it is released on the public while

mandating data be kept for the first five years because they have no idea what

the reaction may be for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and

they have no idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of

cancers. They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our

experience tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to

anyway. That is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They

are asking us to submit our children to this experiment that cannot be

justified by their own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that

please tell me? Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical

trade-off for the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting

cervical cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they

had gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a chance to

survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

Until someone can

answer what is so very wrong with our children, what have we done to an entire

generation of kids that will soon be aging into the social security system in

some cases at a rate of 1 in 25 on the public dole, then I will take my chances

with chicken pox, with measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis,

and even polio and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with

Autism. I have heard experts state, " even if vaccines caused Autism,

the benefits outweight the risks " . These idiots have never been in a

home of a child with Autism. They have obviously never watched the

parents plan for their child's insitutionalization or group home

decisions. They have never watched parents denied insurance coverage for

Autism treatments or dropped from their insurance because their child has

Autism. They have never watched these children biting themselves, banging

their own heads to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out

at their own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their

homes to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement accounts to

pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds that are

still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the home walls.

They have never know what it feels like to lose a child that is still with

you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched parents wonder

why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical ailments that would

be aggressively treated in a typical child, as if because they have Autism they

deserve to suffer. I will take my chances with any of those diseases, in

fact please, I would trade Autism for any single one of them thank you very

much. It's ironic how even with vaccines when there is an outbreak of

measles, everyone rushes to reassure parents that most kids easily recover and

bad outcomes are very very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates

up, the risk is unspeakable.

Your answer to me as

usual addressed not one of my arguments or concerns. And, you proved my

argument that our dead children have no value or worth, but those poor children

that died of meningitis, now that is a travesty.

That is what happens

when you mandate. A child can die of a naturally occurring disease and

another child can die of a government mandated lethal injection.

Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one life lost a travesty and the

other a necessary sacrifice? Do you think it feels any different to

either parent? Is one more right or wrong than the other? It seems

odd to me that someone that is suppose to be from a learning insitution

examining ethics is so one sided about this matter. I take it from your

reply that you at least admit that " some " (who knows really how many)

but some children have died as a result of a reaction to vaccines (the

existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know an unknown percentage will be

killed or damaged). As a bioethicist what is an ethical tradeoff? 1

child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is there an ethical tradeoff?

Would the parents of that one child see it that way? In America

we say one life is not more valuable than another. Shipwreck victims

floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin boy to save the rest, they have

been and will be charged with murder, but we can knowingly kill a percentage of

children to save others. Is it ok because we don't yet know which ones

will react or who they are? Is it because we don't know yet which ones

will be the cabin boy and which ones will be the ship captain? Would it

be different if we knew? If the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or

even 1 in 1,000,000 and called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your

child came up in the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good

of others? I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is

no different.

Do you really believe

that pharmaceutical ethics are any different when it comes to vaccines than

they are with pain killers, drugs such as Vioxx? Why would we believe the

underlying motiviations are any different? We know that the Hepatitis B

vaccines kills and injures more children than ever even caught this disease in

the US, this alone is proof of motives and the true

agenda.

I would expect someone

that claims to be interested in ethics to be more open to seeing the

travesties, devastation, and rights of both sides of an issue. Apparently

for you ethics is only on the side of mandates, and not on freedom of choice

and allowing parents to make truly educated decisions on the health of their

own children.

You are having a

dialogue with someone that has experienced the " other side " first

hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human story. This is what

is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders, one-size-fits-all,

blind sided human policy. Our side is about individuals, choice, lives,

faces, names, humans, compassion. I cannot devalue or downplay one single

death of a child, but to justify the death of one in the name of others is

beyond my comprehension and no longer a sacrifice my family is willing to

make. The ultimate betrayal and motives was revealed to me when a

pediatrician acknowledged our childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it

up with, " we don't know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the

reaction, so we should continue vaccines one at a time " . Sounds a

bit like Russian Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed

this child yet? What was he proposing would be the outcome when we

" hit " on the one that was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging

that it could have been the combination of six at once, several of which were

trivalents? The system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal

is not part of an answer but would only add to a huge problem.

How about these

mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and testing of vaccines and

their ingredients, separation of the watchdog agencies from the promoters of

vaccines, ending the revolving doors of regulators and pharmaceuticals, a true

accounting of the real dangers. Many years ago they denied the DTP was

dangerous or had caused any injuries or deaths, but parents and action groups

got it replaced with the DTaP and now those same agencies reference when the

more dangerous and sometimes deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the

time they were lying. I imagine 20 years from now they will reference the

time before they knew how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into

infants and toddlers was. Only in America could we

be debating the injecting of innocent babies with the 2nd most toxic substance

on earth. There doesn't even have to be PROOF of damage to know you just

don't do that at any cost or any trade off. Would you like to discuss

ethics in relation to that? Please! Don't talk to me about protecting

innocent children, while insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting

'others' at risk. I have watched two children collapse following

vaccines, one became autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered

into the ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even

acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong in this

argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that affects the lives of

people like me. I am not saying you have to have a horse in the race to

participate, but you do have to feed and water all the horses.

Thank You,

Kendra Pettengill

September 13, 2007

YES BUT<

I BET ALL THOSE KIDS WITH MENNINGITIS HAD HAD PRIOR VACCINES...

How do they know that all those prior vaccines had not set the scene to make it MORE likely to contract / exhibit meningitis like symptoms ?

How many of those who got meningitis were fully unvaccinated, or even partially?

Had those kids that got /exhibited menningitis like symptoms been vaccinated with any other vaccine in the weeks prior to their illness. How bout asking him THAT.

(bet they havent even looked as it is too sophisticated a leap for these reductioninst, idiots)

..

Ange

Arthur Caplan Wrote Vaccines should be mandated for homeschooled

My original email to him;

It's not an accident that homeschooled children are not vaccinated, many children are homeschooled for that very reason. Not vaccinating is the goal, not the consequence.

Pushing vaccination will only force parents farther out, not bring them into the fold. It's time in this nation we recognize parent's rights to make choices for their children. The risks we are told are so small, until it's your child that is damaged or dead from vaccines and suddenly for you the risk was 100%. Then we are told our child was a necessary sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in the war on disease. Their deaths don't make the nightly news, they are hushed and hidden from public scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from vaccinating. But let one child in America have the measles and it is national news, a crisis. If a child dies, God forbid, it is considered prosecutable child neglect, but our dead children from vaccination don't warrant investigation, acknowledgement, or even a passing word on the local nightly news.

Selective memory, tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is up, there is no longer any trust between parents and government when it comes to vaccines. The numbers will continue to fall even outside of Homeschoolers and will continue until the real truth about vaccines is told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name it.

His answer to me;

when you dont mandate this is what you get

meningitis alone in children under 18

Death rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year, 70 per month, 16 per week, 2 per day

Mortality rate: 25% in neonates

nearly all preventible

no vaccine kills 849 kids per year

Arthur Caplan Emanuel & Hart Professor of BioethicsChair, Department of Medical Ethics andDirector Center for BioethicsUniversity of Pennsylvania3401 Market St. Suite 320Phila PA 19104-3308http://bioethics.upenn.edu/

My answer to him tonight;

We will never know how many people die from vaccines a year, since even when a child dies within 24 hours following multiple vaccines, it is called SIDS. Even in our families case where in two different children the reactions were immediate, in the doctors office, immediately following vaccination, in one case they initially tried to claim it was somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have happened at that very moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ failure, and death, as if that could somehow happen naturally and out of the blue. When they can deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the reaction 10 days after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine deaths will never ever be truly recorded.

And as more and more people see the attitudes of the medical community and the pharmaceutical companies, such as in our case the advice, "just have another baby" as if you can just replace the lost or damaged ones, they have no real value.

We are experiencing in our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-polar disorder, childhood schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent diabetes, and even adult disorders in children like MS and skyrocketing cancer rates. It is now rare to meet a children without a "disorder" of some kind. No one has any answers for this except to try to convince us that these devastating disorders have always been there and that somehow we are just now recognizing them. Like autism could be subtly missed. Even if we called it something else and it is "diagnostic substitution" our schools would have still had to deal with these children, no matter what their label. That is a fact. But we know, school districts are being crushed under the load of neurological disorders and learning disabilities. Some schools can no longer take in any more, no matter the seriousness. Special Ed experts that believed they would never see a case of Autism in their entire careeers, now juggle caseloads of Autistic kids. The schools are going broke and there is no end in sight. In some areas where I live in Oregon there are "hot spots" where Autism is actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county 1/3 of all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism, bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of 500 to 1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these towns our entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off unbeknownst to the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see now. These same tiny towns now have overflowing "Autism Classrooms" and the schools have established "drug cubbies" for the children where each child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time distribution, Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine kits for severe food allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too common.

So the answer is to try to convince us that our memories are faulty, that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an entire generation of kids that are "stuck on sick" has always been there and we simply don't remember our childhood correctly.

When the CDC doesn't like the results of their own epidemiological study, they do 4 more generations to get rid of the link from thimerisol to Autism, and they wonder why they aren't convincing parents. Why did they add in one generation, 1 to 3 year olds knowing they wouldn't have a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in another generation of study the 16,000 kids originally excluded because they had been born with a birth defect? Why did they in another generation of the study, decide to only count "original" diagnosis, so if a child has a speech delay at 18 months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would not be counted as Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for the freedom of information act or people might have actually believed that they had not found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

Then they tell the American public that parent's testimonials are untrusworthy, emotional, and traumatically induced "anectdotal" information. Really? We put men to death in this country based on emotional and traumatically induced "eye-witness testimony". Our experiences are just that, "eye witness testimony". The denials of our testimonies speak more to profit margins than fact or reality.

All they have to do is scientifically test thimerisol for safety, as this has never been done in history, and still has not. Not epidemiology but real science. Why do they still refuse to do that? All they have to do is stop using our kids as guinea pigs, such as the HPV where it is released on the public while mandating data be kept for the first five years because they have no idea what the reaction may be for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and they have no idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of cancers. They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our experience tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to anyway. That is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They are asking us to submit our children to this experiment that cannot be justified by their own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that please tell me? Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical trade-off for the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting cervical cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they had gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a chance to survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

Until someone can answer what is so very wrong with our children, what have we done to an entire generation of kids that will soon be aging into the social security system in some cases at a rate of 1 in 25 on the public dole, then I will take my chances with chicken pox, with measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and even polio and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with Autism. I have heard experts state, "even if vaccines caused Autism, the benefits outweight the risks". These idiots have never been in a home of a child with Autism. They have obviously never watched the parents plan for their child's insitutionalization or group home decisions. They have never watched parents denied insurance coverage for Autism treatments or dropped from their insurance because their child has Autism. They have never watched these children biting themselves, banging their own heads to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out at their own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their homes to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement accounts to pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds that are still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the home walls. They have never know what it feels like to lose a child that is still with you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched parents wonder why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical ailments that would be aggressively treated in a typical child, as if because they have Autism they deserve to suffer. I will take my chances with any of those diseases, in fact please, I would trade Autism for any single one of them thank you very much. It's ironic how even with vaccines when there is an outbreak of measles, everyone rushes to reassure parents that most kids easily recover and bad outcomes are very very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates up, the risk is unspeakable.

Your answer to me as usual addressed not one of my arguments or concerns. And, you proved my argument that our dead children have no value or worth, but those poor children that died of meningitis, now that is a travesty.

That is what happens when you mandate. A child can die of a naturally occurring disease and another child can die of a government mandated lethal injection. Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one life lost a travesty and the other a necessary sacrifice? Do you think it feels any different to either parent? Is one more right or wrong than the other? It seems odd to me that someone that is suppose to be from a learning insitution examining ethics is so one sided about this matter. I take it from your reply that you at least admit that "some"(who knows really how many) but some children have died as a result of a reaction to vaccines (the existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know an unknown percentage will be killed or damaged). As a bioethicist what is an ethical tradeoff? 1 child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is there an ethical tradeoff? Would the parents of that one child see it that way? In America we say one life is not more valuable than another. Shipwreck victims floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin boy to save the rest, they have been and will be charged with murder, but we can knowingly kill a percentage of children to save others. Is it ok because we don't yet know which ones will react or who they are? Is it because we don't know yet which ones will be the cabin boy and which ones will be the ship captain? Would it be different if we knew? If the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000 and called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your child came up in the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good of others? I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is no different.

Do you really believe that pharmaceutical ethics are any different when it comes to vaccines than they are with pain killers, drugs such as Vioxx? Why would we believe the underlying motiviations are any different? We know that the Hepatitis B vaccines kills and injures more children than ever even caught this disease in the US, this alone is proof of motives and the true agenda.

I would expect someone that claims to be interested in ethics to be more open to seeing the travesties, devastation, and rights of both sides of an issue. Apparently for you ethics is only on the side of mandates, and not on freedom of choice and allowing parents to make truly educated decisions on the health of their own children.

You are having a dialogue with someone that has experienced the "other side" first hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human story. This is what is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders, one-size-fits-all, blind sided human policy. Our side is about individuals, choice, lives, faces, names, humans, compassion. I cannot devalue or downplay one single death of a child, but to justify the death of one in the name of others is beyond my comprehension and no longer a sacrifice my family is willing to make. The ultimate betrayal and motives was revealed to me when a pediatrician acknowledged our childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it up with, "we don't know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the reaction, so we should continue vaccines one at a time". Sounds a bit like Russian Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed this child yet? What was he proposing would be the outcome when we "hit" on the one that was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging that it could have been the combination of six at once, several of which were trivalents? The system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal is not part of an answer but would only add to a huge problem.

How about these mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and testing of vaccines and their ingredients, separation of the watchdog agencies from the promoters of vaccines, ending the revolving doors of regulators and pharmaceuticals, a true accounting of the real dangers. Many years ago they denied the DTP was dangerous or had caused any injuries or deaths, but parents and action groups got it replaced with the DTaP and now those same agencies reference when the more dangerous and sometimes deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the time they were lying. I imagine 20 years from now they will reference the time before they knew how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into infants and toddlers was. Only in America could we be debating the injecting of innocent babies with the 2nd most toxic substance on earth. There doesn't even have to be PROOF of damage to know you just don't do that at any cost or any trade off. Would you like to discuss ethics in relation to that? Please! Don't talk to me about protecting innocent children, while insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting 'others' at risk. I have watched two children collapse following vaccines, one became autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered into the ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong in this argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that affects the lives of people like me. I am not saying you have to have a horse in the race to participate, but you do have to feed and water all the horses.

Thank You,

Kendra Pettengill

September 13, 2007

Fantastic letters. Did he really send an email to you with all those

graphics? Is he also a tone poet? Couldn't he have made his answer

rhyme and typed it in the shape of a heart? How many more times

could " bioethics " be repeated in his title and department?

It's interesting that he stressed " alone " . Debi sent in a report on

cases of menningitis in the same university where the kids had no

contact with each other- isolated cases in the same place. There

appears to be evidence that some are getting menningitis FROM

vaccines. I'll see if I can dig up what she sent in.

I also didn't know you lost a baby to vaccinations. I'm so sorry.

I'll remember that the next time anyone intimidates me or hurts my

feelings over the vaccine issue: I will think of you and the fact

that we have bigger fish to fry than to get discouraged by every

ignoramus out there.

>

> My original email to him;

>

> It's not an accident that homeschooled children are not

vaccinated, many

> children are homeschooled for that very reason. Not vaccinating

is the

> goal, not the consequence.

>

> Pushing vaccination will only force parents farther out, not bring

them

> into the fold. It's time in this nation we recognize parent's

rights to

> make choices for their children. The risks we are told are so

small,

> until it's your child that is damaged or dead from vaccines and

suddenly

> for you the risk was 100%. Then we are told our child was a

necessary

> sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in the war on disease. Their

deaths

> don't make the nightly news, they are hushed and hidden from public

> scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from vaccinating. But let

one

> child in America have the measles and it is national news, a

crisis. If

> a child dies, God forbid, it is considered prosecutable child

neglect,

> but our dead children from vaccination don't warrant investigation,

> acknowledgement, or even a passing word on the local nightly news.

>

> Selective memory, tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is up,

there

> is no longer any trust between parents and government when it

comes to

> vaccines. The numbers will continue to fall even outside of

> Homeschoolers and will continue until the real truth about

vaccines is

> told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name it.

>

> His answer to me;

>

> when you dont mandate this is what you get

>

> meningitis alone in children under 18

>

> Death rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year, 70

per

> month, 16 per week, 2 per day

>

> Mortality rate: 25% in neonates

>

> nearly all preventible

>

> no vaccine kills 849 kids per year

>

> Arthur Caplan

> Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics

> Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and

> Director Center for Bioethics

> University of Pennsylvania

> 3401 Market St. Suite 320

> Phila PA 19104-3308

>

> http://bioethics.upenn.edu/ <http://bioethics.upenn.edu/>

>

> My answer to him tonight;

>

> We will never know how many people die from vaccines a year, since

even

> when a child dies within 24 hours following multiple vaccines, it

is

> called SIDS. Even in our families case where in two different

children

> the reactions were immediate, in the doctors office, immediately

> following vaccination, in one case they initially tried to claim

it was

> somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have happened at that

very

> moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ failure, and death,

as if

> that could somehow happen naturally and out of the blue. When

they can

> deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the reaction 10

days

> after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine deaths

will

> never ever be truly recorded.

>

> And as more and more people see the attitudes of the medical

community

> and the pharmaceutical companies, such as in our case the

advice, " just

> have another baby " as if you can just replace the lost or damaged

ones,

> they have no real value.

>

> We are experiencing in our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-

polar

> disorder, childhood schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent

diabetes,

> and even adult disorders in children like MS and skyrocketing

cancer

> rates. It is now rare to meet a children without a " disorder " of

some

> kind. No one has any answers for this except to try to convince

us that

> these devastating disorders have always been there and that

somehow we

> are just now recognizing them. Like autism could be subtly

missed.

> Even if we called it something else and it is " diagnostic

substitution "

> our schools would have still had to deal with these children, no

matter

> what their label. That is a fact. But we know, school districts

are

> being crushed under the load of neurological disorders and learning

> disabilities. Some schools can no longer take in any more, no

matter

> the seriousness. Special Ed experts that believed they would

never see

> a case of Autism in their entire careeers, now juggle caseloads of

> Autistic kids. The schools are going broke and there is no end in

sight.

> In some areas where I live in Oregon there are " hot spots " where

Autism

> is actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county

1/3 of

> all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism,

> bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of

500 to

> 1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these

towns our

> entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-

polar, or

> childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the

> child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off

unbeknownst

> to the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see

now.

> These same tiny towns now have overflowing " Autism Classrooms " and

the

> schools have established " drug cubbies " for the children where each

> child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time

> distribution, Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine

kits

> for severe food allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too

> common.

>

> So the answer is to try to convince us that our memories are

faulty,

> that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an entire generation of kids that

are " stuck

> on sick " has always been there and we simply don't remember our

> childhood correctly.

>

> When the CDC doesn't like the results of their own epidemiological

> study, they do 4 more generations to get rid of the link from

thimerisol

> to Autism, and they wonder why they aren't convincing parents.

Why did

> they add in one generation, 1 to 3 year olds knowing they wouldn't

have

> a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in another generation of study

the

> 16,000 kids originally excluded because they had been born with a

birth

> defect? Why did they in another generation of the study, decide

to only

> count " original " diagnosis, so if a child has a speech delay at 18

> months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would not be

counted as

> Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for the freedom of

> information act or people might have actually believed that they

had not

> found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

>

> Then they tell the American public that parent's testimonials are

> untrusworthy, emotional, and traumatically induced " anectdotal "

> information. Really? We put men to death in this country based on

> emotional and traumatically induced " eye-witness testimony " . Our

> experiences are just that, " eye witness testimony " . The denials

of our

> testimonies speak more to profit margins than fact or reality.

>

> All they have to do is scientifically test thimerisol for safety,

as

> this has never been done in history, and still has not. Not

> epidemiology but real science. Why do they still refuse to do

that?

> All they have to do is stop using our kids as guinea pigs, such as

the

> HPV where it is released on the public while mandating data be

kept for

> the first five years because they have no idea what the reaction

may be

> for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and they have

no

> idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of

cancers.

> They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our

experience

> tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to

anyway. That

> is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They are asking

us to

> submit our children to this experiment that cannot be justified by

their

> own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that please tell

me?

> Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical trade-

off for

> the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting

cervical

> cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they had

> gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a

chance to

> survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

>

> Until someone can answer what is so very wrong with our children,

what

> have we done to an entire generation of kids that will soon be

aging

> into the social security system in some cases at a rate of 1 in 25

on

> the public dole, then I will take my chances with chicken pox, with

> measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and even

polio

> and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with Autism. I have

> heard experts state, " even if vaccines caused Autism, the benefits

> outweight the risks " . These idiots have never been in a home of a

child

> with Autism. They have obviously never watched the parents plan

for

> their child's insitutionalization or group home decisions. They

have

> never watched parents denied insurance coverage for Autism

treatments or

> dropped from their insurance because their child has Autism. They

have

> never watched these children biting themselves, banging their own

heads

> to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out at

their

> own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their

homes

> to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement

accounts

> to pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds

that are

> still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the

home

> walls. They have never know what it feels like to lose a child

that is

> still with you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched

parents

> wonder why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical

> ailments that would be aggressively treated in a typical child, as

if

> because they have Autism they deserve to suffer. I will take my

chances

> with any of those diseases, in fact please, I would trade Autism

for any

> single one of them thank you very much. It's ironic how even with

> vaccines when there is an outbreak of measles, everyone rushes to

> reassure parents that most kids easily recover and bad outcomes

are very

> very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates up, the risk

is

> unspeakable.

>

> Your answer to me as usual addressed not one of my arguments or

> concerns. And, you proved my argument that our dead children have

no

> value or worth, but those poor children that died of meningitis,

now

> that is a travesty.

>

> That is what happens when you mandate. A child can die of a

naturally

> occurring disease and another child can die of a government

mandated

> lethal injection. Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one

life

> lost a travesty and the other a necessary sacrifice? Do you think

it

> feels any different to either parent? Is one more right or wrong

than

> the other? It seems odd to me that someone that is suppose to be

from a

> learning insitution examining ethics is so one sided about this

matter.

> I take it from your reply that you at least admit that " some " (who

knows

> really how many) but some children have died as a result of a

reaction

> to vaccines (the existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know

an

> unknown percentage will be killed or damaged). As a bioethicist

what is

> an ethical tradeoff? 1 child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is

there

> an ethical tradeoff? Would the parents of that one child see it

that

> way? In America we say one life is not more valuable than

another.

> Shipwreck victims floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin

boy to

> save the rest, they have been and will be charged with murder, but

we

> can knowingly kill a percentage of children to save others. Is it

ok

> because we don't yet know which ones will react or who they are?

Is it

> because we don't know yet which ones will be the cabin boy and

which

> ones will be the ship captain? Would it be different if we knew?

If

> the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000 and

> called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your child came

up in

> the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good of

others?

> I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is no

> different.

>

> Do you really believe that pharmaceutical ethics are any different

when

> it comes to vaccines than they are with pain killers, drugs such as

> Vioxx? Why would we believe the underlying motiviations are any

> different? We know that the Hepatitis B vaccines kills and

injures more

> children than ever even caught this disease in the US, this alone

is

> proof of motives and the true agenda.

>

> I would expect someone that claims to be interested in ethics to

be more

> open to seeing the travesties, devastation, and rights of both

sides of

> an issue. Apparently for you ethics is only on the side of

mandates,

> and not on freedom of choice and allowing parents to make truly

educated

> decisions on the health of their own children.

>

> You are having a dialogue with someone that has experienced

the " other

> side " first hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human

story. This

> is what is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders,

> one-size-fits-all, blind sided human policy. Our side is about

> individuals, choice, lives, faces, names, humans, compassion. I

cannot

> devalue or downplay one single death of a child, but to justify the

> death of one in the name of others is beyond my comprehension and

no

> longer a sacrifice my family is willing to make. The ultimate

betrayal

> and motives was revealed to me when a pediatrician acknowledged our

> childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it up with, " we

don't

> know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the reaction,

so we

> should continue vaccines one at a time " . Sounds a bit like Russian

> Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed this child

yet?

> What was he proposing would be the outcome when we " hit " on the

one that

> was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging that it could have been

the

> combination of six at once, several of which were trivalents? The

> system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal is not part

of an

> answer but would only add to a huge problem.

>

> How about these mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and

testing

> of vaccines and their ingredients, separation of the watchdog

agencies

> from the promoters of vaccines, ending the revolving doors of

regulators

> and pharmaceuticals, a true accounting of the real dangers. Many

years

> ago they denied the DTP was dangerous or had caused any injuries or

> deaths, but parents and action groups got it replaced with the

DTaP and

> now those same agencies reference when the more dangerous and

sometimes

> deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the time they were lying. I

> imagine 20 years from now they will reference the time before they

knew

> how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into infants and

toddlers

> was. Only in America could we be debating the injecting of

innocent

> babies with the 2nd most toxic substance on earth. There doesn't

even

> have to be PROOF of damage to know you just don't do that at any

cost or

> any trade off. Would you like to discuss ethics in relation to

that?

> Please! Don't talk to me about protecting innocent children, while

> insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting 'others' at

risk. I

> have watched two children collapse following vaccines, one became

> autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered into the

> ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even

> acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong in

this

> argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that affects

the

> lives of people like me. I am not saying you have to have a horse

in

> the race to participate, but you do have to feed and water all the

> horses.

>

> Thank You,

>

> Kendra Pettengill

>

September 13, 2007

I did not lose a baby, but my sister did.

Thank You

Kendra

>

> Kendra, this is amazing. I'm printing this off and putting it up

next to

> my desk.

>

> I am so sorry, I didn't realize you lost a baby as well as had a

child

> with autism.

>

> What has always amazed me is that the vaccine proponents don't

advocate

> for more effective vaccines. Instead they put the blame on parents

of

> unvaxed kids.

>

> Becky

>

> Arthur Caplan Wrote Vaccines should be mandated

for

> homeschooled

>

> My original email to him;

>

> It's not an accident that homeschooled children are not vaccinated,

many

> children are homeschooled for that very reason. Not vaccinating is

the

> goal, not the consequence.

>

> Pushing vaccination will only force parents farther out, not bring

them

> into the fold. It's time in this nation we recognize parent's

rights to

> make choices for their children. The risks we are told are so

small,

> until it's your child that is damaged or dead from vaccines and

suddenly

> for you the risk was 100%. Then we are told our child was a

necessary

> sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in the war on disease. Their

deaths

> don't make the nightly news, they are hushed and hidden from public

> scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from vaccinating. But let

one

> child in America have the measles and it is national news, a

crisis. If

> a child dies, God forbid, it is considered prosecutable child

neglect,

> but our dead children from vaccination don't warrant investigation,

> acknowledgement, or even a passing word on the local nightly news.

>

> Selective memory, tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is up,

there

> is no longer any trust between parents and government when it comes

to

> vaccines. The numbers will continue to fall even outside of

> Homeschoolers and will continue until the real truth about vaccines

is

> told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name it.

>

> His answer to me;

>

> when you dont mandate this is what you get

>

> meningitis alone in children under 18

>

> Death rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year, 70

per

> month, 16 per week, 2 per day

>

> Mortality rate: 25% in neonates

>

> nearly all preventible

>

> no vaccine kills 849 kids per year

>

> Arthur Caplan

> Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics

> Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and

> Director Center for Bioethics

> University of Pennsylvania

> 3401 Market St. Suite 320

> Phila PA 19104-3308

>

> <http://bioethics.upenn.edu/> http://bioethics.upenn.edu/

>

> My answer to him tonight;

>

> We will never know how many people die from vaccines a year, since

even

> when a child dies within 24 hours following multiple vaccines, it is

> called SIDS. Even in our families case where in two different

children

> the reactions were immediate, in the doctors office, immediately

> following vaccination, in one case they initially tried to claim it

was

> somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have happened at that

very

> moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ failure, and death, as

if

> that could somehow happen naturally and out of the blue. When they

can

> deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the reaction 10

days

> after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine deaths

will

> never ever be truly recorded.

>

> And as more and more people see the attitudes of the medical

community

> and the pharmaceutical companies, such as in our case the

advice, " just

> have another baby " as if you can just replace the lost or damaged

ones,

> they have no real value.

>

> We are experiencing in our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-polar

> disorder, childhood schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent

diabetes,

> and even adult disorders in children like MS and skyrocketing cancer

> rates. It is now rare to meet a children without a " disorder " of

some

> kind. No one has any answers for this except to try to convince us

that

> these devastating disorders have always been there and that somehow

we

> are just now recognizing them. Like autism could be subtly missed.

> Even if we called it something else and it is " diagnostic

substitution "

> our schools would have still had to deal with these children, no

matter

> what their label. That is a fact. But we know, school districts

are

> being crushed under the load of neurological disorders and learning

> disabilities. Some schools can no longer take in any more, no

matter

> the seriousness. Special Ed experts that believed they would never

see

> a case of Autism in their entire careeers, now juggle caseloads of

> Autistic kids. The schools are going broke and there is no end in

sight.

> In some areas where I live in Oregon there are " hot spots " where

Autism

> is actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county 1/3

of

> all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism,

> bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of 500

to

> 1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these towns

our

> entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-polar,

or

> childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the

> child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off

unbeknownst

> to the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see now.

> These same tiny towns now have overflowing " Autism Classrooms " and

the

> schools have established " drug cubbies " for the children where each

> child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time

> distribution, Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine

kits

> for severe food allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too

> common.

>

> So the answer is to try to convince us that our memories are faulty,

> that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an entire generation of kids that

are " stuck

> on sick " has always been there and we simply don't remember our

> childhood correctly.

>

> When the CDC doesn't like the results of their own epidemiological

> study, they do 4 more generations to get rid of the link from

thimerisol

> to Autism, and they wonder why they aren't convincing parents. Why

did

> they add in one generation, 1 to 3 year olds knowing they wouldn't

have

> a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in another generation of study

the

> 16,000 kids originally excluded because they had been born with a

birth

> defect? Why did they in another generation of the study, decide to

only

> count " original " diagnosis, so if a child has a speech delay at 18

> months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would not be

counted as

> Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for the freedom of

> information act or people might have actually believed that they

had not

> found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

>

> Then they tell the American public that parent's testimonials are

> untrusworthy, emotional, and traumatically induced " anectdotal "

> information. Really? We put men to death in this country based on

> emotional and traumatically induced " eye-witness testimony " . Our

> experiences are just that, " eye witness testimony " . The denials of

our

> testimonies speak more to profit margins than fact or reality.

>

> All they have to do is scientifically test thimerisol for safety, as

> this has never been done in history, and still has not. Not

> epidemiology but real science. Why do they still refuse to do that?

> All they have to do is stop using our kids as guinea pigs, such as

the

> HPV where it is released on the public while mandating data be kept

for

> the first five years because they have no idea what the reaction

may be

> for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and they have

no

> idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of

cancers.

> They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our

experience

> tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to anyway.

That

> is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They are asking

us to

> submit our children to this experiment that cannot be justified by

their

> own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that please tell

me?

> Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical trade-off

for

> the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting

cervical

> cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they had

> gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a chance

to

> survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

>

> Until someone can answer what is so very wrong with our children,

what

> have we done to an entire generation of kids that will soon be aging

> into the social security system in some cases at a rate of 1 in 25

on

> the public dole, then I will take my chances with chicken pox, with

> measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and even

polio

> and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with Autism. I have

> heard experts state, " even if vaccines caused Autism, the benefits

> outweight the risks " . These idiots have never been in a home of a

child

> with Autism. They have obviously never watched the parents plan for

> their child's insitutionalization or group home decisions. They

have

> never watched parents denied insurance coverage for Autism

treatments or

> dropped from their insurance because their child has Autism. They

have

> never watched these children biting themselves, banging their own

heads

> to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out at

their

> own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their

homes

> to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement

accounts

> to pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds

that are

> still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the

home

> walls. They have never know what it feels like to lose a child

that is

> still with you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched

parents

> wonder why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical

> ailments that would be aggressively treated in a typical child, as

if

> because they have Autism they deserve to suffer. I will take my

chances

> with any of those diseases, in fact please, I would trade Autism

for any

> single one of them thank you very much. It's ironic how even with

> vaccines when there is an outbreak of measles, everyone rushes to

> reassure parents that most kids easily recover and bad outcomes are

very

> very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates up, the risk is

> unspeakable.

>

> Your answer to me as usual addressed not one of my arguments or

> concerns. And, you proved my argument that our dead children have

no

> value or worth, but those poor children that died of meningitis, now

> that is a travesty.

>

> That is what happens when you mandate. A child can die of a

naturally

> occurring disease and another child can die of a government mandated

> lethal injection. Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one

life

> lost a travesty and the other a necessary sacrifice? Do you think

it

> feels any different to either parent? Is one more right or wrong

than

> the other? It seems odd to me that someone that is suppose to be

from a

> learning insitution examining ethics is so one sided about this

matter.

> I take it from your reply that you at least admit that " some " (who

knows

> really how many) but some children have died as a result of a

reaction

> to vaccines (the existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know an

> unknown percentage will be killed or damaged). As a bioethicist

what is

> an ethical tradeoff? 1 child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is

there

> an ethical tradeoff? Would the parents of that one child see it

that

> way? In America we say one life is not more valuable than another.

> Shipwreck victims floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin boy

to

> save the rest, they have been and will be charged with murder, but

we

> can knowingly kill a percentage of children to save others. Is it

ok

> because we don't yet know which ones will react or who they are?

Is it

> because we don't know yet which ones will be the cabin boy and which

> ones will be the ship captain? Would it be different if we knew?

If

> the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000 and

> called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your child came

up in

> the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good of

others?

> I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is no

> different.

>

> Do you really believe that pharmaceutical ethics are any different

when

> it comes to vaccines than they are with pain killers, drugs such as

> Vioxx? Why would we believe the underlying motiviations are any

> different? We know that the Hepatitis B vaccines kills and injures

more

> children than ever even caught this disease in the US, this alone is

> proof of motives and the true agenda.

>

> I would expect someone that claims to be interested in ethics to be

more

> open to seeing the travesties, devastation, and rights of both

sides of

> an issue. Apparently for you ethics is only on the side of

mandates,

> and not on freedom of choice and allowing parents to make truly

educated

> decisions on the health of their own children.

>

> You are having a dialogue with someone that has experienced

the " other

> side " first hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human story.

This

> is what is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders,

> one-size-fits-all, blind sided human policy. Our side is about

> individuals, choice, lives, faces, names, humans, compassion. I

cannot

> devalue or downplay one single death of a child, but to justify the

> death of one in the name of others is beyond my comprehension and no

> longer a sacrifice my family is willing to make. The ultimate

betrayal

> and motives was revealed to me when a pediatrician acknowledged our

> childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it up with, " we don't

> know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the reaction, so

we

> should continue vaccines one at a time " . Sounds a bit like Russian

> Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed this child

yet?

> What was he proposing would be the outcome when we " hit " on the one

that

> was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging that it could have been

the

> combination of six at once, several of which were trivalents? The

> system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal is not part of

an

> answer but would only add to a huge problem.

>

> How about these mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and

testing

> of vaccines and their ingredients, separation of the watchdog

agencies

> from the promoters of vaccines, ending the revolving doors of

regulators

> and pharmaceuticals, a true accounting of the real dangers. Many

years

> ago they denied the DTP was dangerous or had caused any injuries or

> deaths, but parents and action groups got it replaced with the DTaP

and

> now those same agencies reference when the more dangerous and

sometimes

> deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the time they were lying. I

> imagine 20 years from now they will reference the time before they

knew

> how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into infants and

toddlers

> was. Only in America could we be debating the injecting of innocent

> babies with the 2nd most toxic substance on earth. There doesn't

even

> have to be PROOF of damage to know you just don't do that at any

cost or

> any trade off. Would you like to discuss ethics in relation to

that?

> Please! Don't talk to me about protecting innocent children, while

> insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting 'others' at risk.

I

> have watched two children collapse following vaccines, one became

> autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered into the

> ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even

> acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong in

this

> argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that affects

the

> lives of people like me. I am not saying you have to have a horse

in

> the race to participate, but you do have to feed and water all the

> horses.

>

> Thank You,

>

> Kendra Pettengill

>

September 13, 2007

Are most "bioethics" folks PRO-VACCINE? > > Arthur Caplan> Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics> Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and> Director Center for Bioethics> University of Pennsylvania> 3401 Market St. Suite 320> Phila PA 19104-3308> > http://bioethics.upenn.edu/ http://bioethics.upenn.edu/

September 14, 2007

dear Ms.Kandra Pettengill

I was reading your article ,with quite some interest and the dear

doctors response.

I have a studid question , where does Dr.Caplan get his data

on mortality /

He make this statement:

meningitis alone in children under 18 Death rate extrapolations for

USA for Meningitis: 849 per year, 70 per month, 16 per week, 2 per

day Mortality rate: 25% in neonates/

His this data from the CDC ( I hope not , we know how they get thing

wrong),is it from the WHO world wealth organition ( if so he should

read the article from Dr.Girard or the recent article in lancet on

the WHO) if he base his response on them , he should reconsidered

his statement.

In the context of comment of recently retired editor of the MBJ

who it makes it perfectly clear ,that there is over 30,000 studies

sponsered by the pharmaceutical industry and publish that he

considered to in some cases are flawed in others completely bogus.

You should ask him , if this the same data ,that canadain gouv used

to make the decision not to introduce this vaccine.

But the most important question ,you should ask him , how much

is the vaccine paying in consultant fees .

if he is honest , he will have to respond

Pierre

vCal me stidid bM

>

> My original email to him;

>

> It's not an accident that homeschooled children are not

vaccinated, many

> children are homeschooled for that very reason. Not vaccinating

is the

> goal, not the consequence.

>

> Pushing vaccination will only force parents farther out, not bring

them

> into the fold. It's time in this nation we recognize parent's

rights to

> make choices for their children. The risks we are told are so

small,

> until it's your child that is damaged or dead from vaccines and

suddenly

> for you the risk was 100%. Then we are told our child was a

necessary

> sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in the war on disease. Their

deaths

> don't make the nightly news, they are hushed and hidden from public

> scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from vaccinating. But let

one

> child in America have the measles and it is national news, a

crisis. If

> a child dies, God forbid, it is considered prosecutable child

neglect,

> but our dead children from vaccination don't warrant investigation,

> acknowledgement, or even a passing word on the local nightly news.

>

> Selective memory, tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is up,

there

> is no longer any trust between parents and government when it

comes to

> vaccines. The numbers will continue to fall even outside of

> Homeschoolers and will continue until the real truth about

vaccines is

> told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name it.

>

> His answer to me;

>

> when you dont mandate this is what you get

>

> meningitis alone in children under 18

>

> Death rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year, 70

per

> month, 16 per week, 2 per day

>

> Mortality rate: 25% in neonates

>

> nearly all preventible

>

> no vaccine kills 849 kids per year

>

> Arthur Caplan

> Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics

> Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and

> Director Center for Bioethics

> University of Pennsylvania

> 3401 Market St. Suite 320

> Phila PA 19104-3308

>

> http://bioethics.upenn.edu/ <http://bioethics.upenn.edu/>

>

> My answer to him tonight;

>

> We will never know how many people die from vaccines a year, since

even

> when a child dies within 24 hours following multiple vaccines, it

is

> called SIDS. Even in our families case where in two different

children

> the reactions were immediate, in the doctors office, immediately

> following vaccination, in one case they initially tried to claim

it was

> somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have happened at that

very

> moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ failure, and death,

as if

> that could somehow happen naturally and out of the blue. When

they can

> deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the reaction 10

days

> after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine deaths

will

> never ever be truly recorded.

>

> And as more and more people see the attitudes of the medical

community

> and the pharmaceutical companies, such as in our case the

advice, " just

> have another baby " as if you can just replace the lost or damaged

ones,

> they have no real value.

>

> We are experiencing in our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-

polar

> disorder, childhood schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent

diabetes,

> and even adult disorders in children like MS and skyrocketing

cancer

> rates. It is now rare to meet a children without a " disorder " of

some

> kind. No one has any answers for this except to try to convince

us that

> these devastating disorders have always been there and that

somehow we

> are just now recognizing them. Like autism could be subtly

missed.

> Even if we called it something else and it is " diagnostic

substitution "

> our schools would have still had to deal with these children, no

matter

> what their label. That is a fact. But we know, school districts

are

> being crushed under the load of neurological disorders and learning

> disabilities. Some schools can no longer take in any more, no

matter

> the seriousness. Special Ed experts that believed they would

never see

> a case of Autism in their entire careeers, now juggle caseloads of

> Autistic kids. The schools are going broke and there is no end in

sight.

> In some areas where I live in Oregon there are " hot spots " where

Autism

> is actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county

1/3 of

> all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism,

> bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of

500 to

> 1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these

towns our

> entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-

polar, or

> childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the

> child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off

unbeknownst

> to the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see

now.

> These same tiny towns now have overflowing " Autism Classrooms " and

the

> schools have established " drug cubbies " for the children where each

> child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time

> distribution, Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine

kits

> for severe food allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too

> common.

>

> So the answer is to try to convince us that our memories are

faulty,

> that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an entire generation of kids that

are " stuck

> on sick " has always been there and we simply don't remember our

> childhood correctly.

>

> When the CDC doesn't like the results of their own epidemiological

> study, they do 4 more generations to get rid of the link from

thimerisol

> to Autism, and they wonder why they aren't convincing parents.

Why did

> they add in one generation, 1 to 3 year olds knowing they wouldn't

have

> a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in another generation of study

the

> 16,000 kids originally excluded because they had been born with a

birth

> defect? Why did they in another generation of the study, decide

to only

> count " original " diagnosis, so if a child has a speech delay at 18

> months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would not be

counted as

> Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for the freedom of

> information act or people might have actually believed that they

had not

> found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

>

> Then they tell the American public that parent's testimonials are

> untrusworthy, emotional, and traumatically induced " anectdotal "

> information. Really? We put men to death in this country based on

> emotional and traumatically induced " eye-witness testimony " . Our

> experiences are just that, " eye witness testimony " . The denials

of our

> testimonies speak more to profit margins than fact or reality.

>

> All they have to do is scientifically test thimerisol for safety,

as

> this has never been done in history, and still has not. Not

> epidemiology but real science. Why do they still refuse to do

that?

> All they have to do is stop using our kids as guinea pigs, such as

the

> HPV where it is released on the public while mandating data be

kept for

> the first five years because they have no idea what the reaction

may be

> for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and they have

no

> idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of

cancers.

> They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our

experience

> tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to

anyway. That

> is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They are asking

us to

> submit our children to this experiment that cannot be justified by

their

> own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that please tell

me?

> Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical trade-

off for

> the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting

cervical

> cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they had

> gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a

chance to

> survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

>

> Until someone can answer what is so very wrong with our children,

what

> have we done to an entire generation of kids that will soon be

aging

> into the social security system in some cases at a rate of 1 in 25

on

> the public dole, then I will take my chances with chicken pox, with

> measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and even

polio

> and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with Autism. I have

> heard experts state, " even if vaccines caused Autism, the benefits

> outweight the risks " . These idiots have never been in a home of a

child

> with Autism. They have obviously never watched the parents plan

for

> their child's insitutionalization or group home decisions. They

have

> never watched parents denied insurance coverage for Autism

treatments or

> dropped from their insurance because their child has Autism. They

have

> never watched these children biting themselves, banging their own

heads

> to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out at

their

> own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their

homes

> to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement

accounts

> to pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds

that are

> still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the

home

> walls. They have never know what it feels like to lose a child

that is

> still with you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched

parents

> wonder why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical

> ailments that would be aggressively treated in a typical child, as

if

> because they have Autism they deserve to suffer. I will take my

chances

> with any of those diseases, in fact please, I would trade Autism

for any

> single one of them thank you very much. It's ironic how even with

> vaccines when there is an outbreak of measles, everyone rushes to

> reassure parents that most kids easily recover and bad outcomes

are very

> very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates up, the risk

is

> unspeakable.

>

> Your answer to me as usual addressed not one of my arguments or

> concerns. And, you proved my argument that our dead children have

no

> value or worth, but those poor children that died of meningitis,

now

> that is a travesty.

>

> That is what happens when you mandate. A child can die of a

naturally

> occurring disease and another child can die of a government

mandated

> lethal injection. Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one

life

> lost a travesty and the other a necessary sacrifice? Do you think

it

> feels any different to either parent? Is one more right or wrong

than

> the other? It seems odd to me that someone that is suppose to be

from a

> learning insitution examining ethics is so one sided about this

matter.

> I take it from your reply that you at least admit that " some " (who

knows

> really how many) but some children have died as a result of a

reaction

> to vaccines (the existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know

an

> unknown percentage will be killed or damaged). As a bioethicist

what is

> an ethical tradeoff? 1 child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is

there

> an ethical tradeoff? Would the parents of that one child see it

that

> way? In America we say one life is not more valuable than

another.

> Shipwreck victims floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin

boy to

> save the rest, they have been and will be charged with murder, but

we

> can knowingly kill a percentage of children to save others. Is it

ok

> because we don't yet know which ones will react or who they are?

Is it

> because we don't know yet which ones will be the cabin boy and

which

> ones will be the ship captain? Would it be different if we knew?

If

> the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000 and

> called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your child came

up in

> the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good of

others?

> I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is no

> different.

>

> Do you really believe that pharmaceutical ethics are any different

when

> it comes to vaccines than they are with pain killers, drugs such as

> Vioxx? Why would we believe the underlying motiviations are any

> different? We know that the Hepatitis B vaccines kills and

injures more

> children than ever even caught this disease in the US, this alone

is

> proof of motives and the true agenda.

>

> I would expect someone that claims to be interested in ethics to

be more

> open to seeing the travesties, devastation, and rights of both

sides of

> an issue. Apparently for you ethics is only on the side of

mandates,

> and not on freedom of choice and allowing parents to make truly

educated

> decisions on the health of their own children.

>

> You are having a dialogue with someone that has experienced

the " other

> side " first hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human

story. This

> is what is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders,

> one-size-fits-all, blind sided human policy. Our side is about

> individuals, choice, lives, faces, names, humans, compassion. I

cannot

> devalue or downplay one single death of a child, but to justify the

> death of one in the name of others is beyond my comprehension and

no

> longer a sacrifice my family is willing to make. The ultimate

betrayal

> and motives was revealed to me when a pediatrician acknowledged our

> childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it up with, " we

don't

> know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the reaction,

so we

> should continue vaccines one at a time " . Sounds a bit like Russian

> Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed this child

yet?

> What was he proposing would be the outcome when we " hit " on the

one that

> was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging that it could have been

the

> combination of six at once, several of which were trivalents? The

> system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal is not part

of an

> answer but would only add to a huge problem.

>

> How about these mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and

testing

> of vaccines and their ingredients, separation of the watchdog

agencies

> from the promoters of vaccines, ending the revolving doors of

regulators

> and pharmaceuticals, a true accounting of the real dangers. Many

years

> ago they denied the DTP was dangerous or had caused any injuries or

> deaths, but parents and action groups got it replaced with the

DTaP and

> now those same agencies reference when the more dangerous and

sometimes

> deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the time they were lying. I

> imagine 20 years from now they will reference the time before they

knew

> how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into infants and

toddlers

> was. Only in America could we be debating the injecting of

innocent

> babies with the 2nd most toxic substance on earth. There doesn't

even

> have to be PROOF of damage to know you just don't do that at any

cost or

> any trade off. Would you like to discuss ethics in relation to

that?

> Please! Don't talk to me about protecting innocent children, while

> insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting 'others' at

risk. I

> have watched two children collapse following vaccines, one became

> autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered into the

> ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even

> acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong in

this

> argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that affects

the

> lives of people like me. I am not saying you have to have a horse

in

> the race to participate, but you do have to feed and water all the

> horses.

>

> Thank You,

>

> Kendra Pettengill

>

September 14, 2007

> >

> > My original email to him;

> >

> > It's not an accident that homeschooled children are not

> vaccinated, many

> > children are homeschooled for that very reason. Not vaccinating

> is the

> > goal, not the consequence.

> >

> > Pushing vaccination will only force parents farther out, not

bring

> them

> > into the fold. It's time in this nation we recognize parent's

> rights to

> > make choices for their children. The risks we are told are so

> small,

> > until it's your child that is damaged or dead from vaccines and

> suddenly

> > for you the risk was 100%. Then we are told our child was a

> necessary

> > sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in the war on disease. Their

> deaths

> > don't make the nightly news, they are hushed and hidden from

public

> > scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from vaccinating. But

let

> one

> > child in America have the measles and it is national news, a

> crisis. If

> > a child dies, God forbid, it is considered prosecutable child

> neglect,

> > but our dead children from vaccination don't warrant

investigation,

> > acknowledgement, or even a passing word on the local nightly news.

> >

> > Selective memory, tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is

up,

> there

> > is no longer any trust between parents and government when it

> comes to

> > vaccines. The numbers will continue to fall even outside of

> > Homeschoolers and will continue until the real truth about

> vaccines is

> > told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name it.

> >

> > His answer to me;

> >

> > when you dont mandate this is what you get

> >

> > meningitis alone in children under 18

> >

> > Death rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year,

70

> per

> > month, 16 per week, 2 per day

> >

> > Mortality rate: 25% in neonates

> >

> > nearly all preventible

> >

> > no vaccine kills 849 kids per year

> >

> > Arthur Caplan

> > Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics

> > Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and

> > Director Center for Bioethics

> > University of Pennsylvania

> > 3401 Market St. Suite 320

> > Phila PA 19104-3308

> >

> > http://bioethics.upenn.edu/ <http://bioethics.upenn.edu/>

> >

> > My answer to him tonight;

> >

> > We will never know how many people die from vaccines a year,

since

> even

> > when a child dies within 24 hours following multiple vaccines, it

> is

> > called SIDS. Even in our families case where in two different

> children

> > the reactions were immediate, in the doctors office, immediately

> > following vaccination, in one case they initially tried to claim

> it was

> > somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have happened at

that

> very

> > moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ failure, and death,

> as if

> > that could somehow happen naturally and out of the blue. When

> they can

> > deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the reaction 10

> days

> > after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine

deaths

> will

> > never ever be truly recorded.

> >

> > And as more and more people see the attitudes of the medical

> community

> > and the pharmaceutical companies, such as in our case the

> advice, " just

> > have another baby " as if you can just replace the lost or damaged

> ones,

> > they have no real value.

> >

> > We are experiencing in our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-

> polar

> > disorder, childhood schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent

> diabetes,

> > and even adult disorders in children like MS and skyrocketing

> cancer

> > rates. It is now rare to meet a children without a " disorder " of

> some

> > kind. No one has any answers for this except to try to convince

> us that

> > these devastating disorders have always been there and that

> somehow we

> > are just now recognizing them. Like autism could be subtly

> missed.

> > Even if we called it something else and it is " diagnostic

> substitution "

> > our schools would have still had to deal with these children, no

> matter

> > what their label. That is a fact. But we know, school districts

> are

> > being crushed under the load of neurological disorders and

learning

> > disabilities. Some schools can no longer take in any more, no

> matter

> > the seriousness. Special Ed experts that believed they would

> never see

> > a case of Autism in their entire careeers, now juggle caseloads of

> > Autistic kids. The schools are going broke and there is no end in

> sight.

> > In some areas where I live in Oregon there are " hot spots " where

> Autism

> > is actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county

> 1/3 of

> > all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism,

> > bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of

> 500 to

> > 1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these

> towns our

> > entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-

> polar, or

> > childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the

> > child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off

> unbeknownst

> > to the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see

> now.

> > These same tiny towns now have overflowing " Autism Classrooms "

and

> the

> > schools have established " drug cubbies " for the children where

each

> > child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time

> > distribution, Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine

> kits

> > for severe food allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too

> > common.

> >

> > So the answer is to try to convince us that our memories are

> faulty,

> > that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an entire generation of kids that

> are " stuck

> > on sick " has always been there and we simply don't remember our

> > childhood correctly.

> >

> > When the CDC doesn't like the results of their own epidemiological

> > study, they do 4 more generations to get rid of the link from

> thimerisol

> > to Autism, and they wonder why they aren't convincing parents.

> Why did

> > they add in one generation, 1 to 3 year olds knowing they

wouldn't

> have

> > a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in another generation of study

> the

> > 16,000 kids originally excluded because they had been born with a

> birth

> > defect? Why did they in another generation of the study, decide

> to only

> > count " original " diagnosis, so if a child has a speech delay at 18

> > months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would not be

> counted as

> > Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for the freedom of

> > information act or people might have actually believed that they

> had not

> > found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

> >

> > Then they tell the American public that parent's testimonials are

> > untrusworthy, emotional, and traumatically induced " anectdotal "

> > information. Really? We put men to death in this country based

on

> > emotional and traumatically induced " eye-witness testimony " . Our

> > experiences are just that, " eye witness testimony " . The denials

> of our

> > testimonies speak more to profit margins than fact or reality.

> >

> > All they have to do is scientifically test thimerisol for safety,

> as

> > this has never been done in history, and still has not. Not

> > epidemiology but real science. Why do they still refuse to do

> that?

> > All they have to do is stop using our kids as guinea pigs, such

as

> the

> > HPV where it is released on the public while mandating data be

> kept for

> > the first five years because they have no idea what the reaction

> may be

> > for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and they

have

> no

> > idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of

> cancers.

> > They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our

> experience

> > tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to

> anyway. That

> > is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They are asking

> us to

> > submit our children to this experiment that cannot be justified

by

> their

> > own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that please tell

> me?

> > Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical trade-

> off for

> > the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting

> cervical

> > cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they had

> > gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a

> chance to

> > survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

> >

> > Until someone can answer what is so very wrong with our children,

> what

> > have we done to an entire generation of kids that will soon be

> aging

> > into the social security system in some cases at a rate of 1 in

25

> on

> > the public dole, then I will take my chances with chicken pox,

with

> > measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and even

> polio

> > and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with Autism. I

have

> > heard experts state, " even if vaccines caused Autism, the benefits

> > outweight the risks " . These idiots have never been in a home of

a

> child

> > with Autism. They have obviously never watched the parents plan

> for

> > their child's insitutionalization or group home decisions. They

> have

> > never watched parents denied insurance coverage for Autism

> treatments or

> > dropped from their insurance because their child has Autism.

They

> have

> > never watched these children biting themselves, banging their own

> heads

> > to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out

at

> their

> > own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their

> homes

> > to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement

> accounts

> > to pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds

> that are

> > still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the

> home

> > walls. They have never know what it feels like to lose a child

> that is

> > still with you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched

> parents

> > wonder why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical

> > ailments that would be aggressively treated in a typical child,

as

> if

> > because they have Autism they deserve to suffer. I will take my

> chances

> > with any of those diseases, in fact please, I would trade Autism

> for any

> > single one of them thank you very much. It's ironic how even with

> > vaccines when there is an outbreak of measles, everyone rushes to

> > reassure parents that most kids easily recover and bad outcomes

> are very

> > very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates up, the risk

> is

> > unspeakable.

> >

> > Your answer to me as usual addressed not one of my arguments or

> > concerns. And, you proved my argument that our dead children

have

> no

> > value or worth, but those poor children that died of meningitis,

> now

> > that is a travesty.

> >

> > That is what happens when you mandate. A child can die of a

> naturally

> > occurring disease and another child can die of a government

> mandated

> > lethal injection. Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one

> life

> > lost a travesty and the other a necessary sacrifice? Do you

think

> it

> > feels any different to either parent? Is one more right or wrong

> than

> > the other? It seems odd to me that someone that is suppose to be

> from a

> > learning insitution examining ethics is so one sided about this

> matter.

> > I take it from your reply that you at least admit that " some " (who

> knows

> > really how many) but some children have died as a result of a

> reaction

> > to vaccines (the existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know

> an

> > unknown percentage will be killed or damaged). As a bioethicist

> what is

> > an ethical tradeoff? 1 child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is

> there

> > an ethical tradeoff? Would the parents of that one child see it

> that

> > way? In America we say one life is not more valuable than

> another.

> > Shipwreck victims floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin

> boy to

> > save the rest, they have been and will be charged with murder,

but

> we

> > can knowingly kill a percentage of children to save others. Is

it

> ok

> > because we don't yet know which ones will react or who they are?

> Is it

> > because we don't know yet which ones will be the cabin boy and

> which

> > ones will be the ship captain? Would it be different if we

knew?

> If

> > the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000

and

> > called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your child came

> up in

> > the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good of

> others?

> > I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is no

> > different.

> >

> > Do you really believe that pharmaceutical ethics are any

different

> when

> > it comes to vaccines than they are with pain killers, drugs such

as

> > Vioxx? Why would we believe the underlying motiviations are any

> > different? We know that the Hepatitis B vaccines kills and

> injures more

> > children than ever even caught this disease in the US, this alone

> is

> > proof of motives and the true agenda.

> >

> > I would expect someone that claims to be interested in ethics to

> be more

> > open to seeing the travesties, devastation, and rights of both

> sides of

> > an issue. Apparently for you ethics is only on the side of

> mandates,

> > and not on freedom of choice and allowing parents to make truly

> educated

> > decisions on the health of their own children.

> >

> > You are having a dialogue with someone that has experienced

> the " other

> > side " first hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human

> story. This

> > is what is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders,

> > one-size-fits-all, blind sided human policy. Our side is about

> > individuals, choice, lives, faces, names, humans, compassion. I

> cannot

> > devalue or downplay one single death of a child, but to justify

the

> > death of one in the name of others is beyond my comprehension and

> no

> > longer a sacrifice my family is willing to make. The ultimate

> betrayal

> > and motives was revealed to me when a pediatrician acknowledged

our

> > childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it up with, " we

> don't

> > know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the reaction,

> so we

> > should continue vaccines one at a time " . Sounds a bit like

Russian

> > Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed this

child

> yet?

> > What was he proposing would be the outcome when we " hit " on the

> one that

> > was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging that it could have

been

> the

> > combination of six at once, several of which were trivalents? The

> > system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal is not part

> of an

> > answer but would only add to a huge problem.

> >

> > How about these mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and

> testing

> > of vaccines and their ingredients, separation of the watchdog

> agencies

> > from the promoters of vaccines, ending the revolving doors of

> regulators

> > and pharmaceuticals, a true accounting of the real dangers. Many

> years

> > ago they denied the DTP was dangerous or had caused any injuries

or

> > deaths, but parents and action groups got it replaced with the

> DTaP and

> > now those same agencies reference when the more dangerous and

> sometimes

> > deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the time they were lying.

I

> > imagine 20 years from now they will reference the time before

they

> knew

> > how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into infants and

> toddlers

> > was. Only in America could we be debating the injecting of

> innocent

> > babies with the 2nd most toxic substance on earth. There doesn't

> even

> > have to be PROOF of damage to know you just don't do that at any

> cost or

> > any trade off. Would you like to discuss ethics in relation to

> that?

> > Please! Don't talk to me about protecting innocent children,

while

> > insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting 'others' at

> risk. I

> > have watched two children collapse following vaccines, one became

> > autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered into

the

> > ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even

> > acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong

in

> this

> > argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that

affects

> the

> > lives of people like me. I am not saying you have to have a

horse

> in

> > the race to participate, but you do have to feed and water all the

> > horses.

> >

> > Thank You,

> >

> > Kendra Pettengill

> >

>

September 14, 2007

Someone send this to Dr. Caplan. If he is convinced that it's all good, maybe he will step up to the challenge.http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press

GeorgaOn 9/13/07, sammysouthie <sammysouthie@...> wrote:

> >

> > My original email to him;

> >

> > It's not an accident that homeschooled children are not

> vaccinated, many

> > children are homeschooled for that very reason. Not vaccinating

> is the

> > goal, not the consequence.

> >

> > Pushing vaccination will only force parents farther out, not

bring

> them

> > into the fold. It's time in this nation we recognize parent's

> rights to

> > make choices for their children. The risks we are told are so

> small,

> > until it's your child that is damaged or dead from vaccines and

> suddenly

> > for you the risk was 100%. Then we are told our child was a

> necessary

> > sacrifice, a sacrificial soldier in the war on disease. Their

> deaths

> > don't make the nightly news, they are hushed and hidden from

public

> > scrutiny lest we frighten other parents from vaccinating. But

let

> one

> > child in America have the measles and it is national news, a

> crisis. If

> > a child dies, God forbid, it is considered prosecutable child

> neglect,

> > but our dead children from vaccination don't warrant

investigation,

> > acknowledgement, or even a passing word on the local nightly news.

> >

> > Selective memory, tainted epidemiological studies, the ruse is

up,

> there

> > is no longer any trust between parents and government when it

> comes to

> > vaccines. The numbers will continue to fall even outside of

> > Homeschoolers and will continue until the real truth about

> vaccines is

> > told, Autism, Sudden Infant Deaths, you name it.

> >

> > His answer to me;

> >

> > when you dont mandate this is what you get

> >

> > meningitis alone in children under 18

> >

> > Death rate extrapolations for USA for Meningitis: 849 per year,

70

> per

> > month, 16 per week, 2 per day

> >

> > Mortality rate: 25% in neonates

> >

> > nearly all preventible

> >

> > no vaccine kills 849 kids per year

> >

> > Arthur Caplan

> > Emanuel & Hart Professor of Bioethics

> > Chair, Department of Medical Ethics and

> > Director Center for Bioethics

> > University of Pennsylvania

> > 3401 Market St. Suite 320

> > Phila PA 19104-3308

> >

> > http://bioethics.upenn.edu/ <

http://bioethics.upenn.edu/>

> >

> > My answer to him tonight;

> >

> > We will never know how many people die from vaccines a year,

since

> even

> > when a child dies within 24 hours following multiple vaccines, it

> is

> > called SIDS. Even in our families case where in two different

> children

> > the reactions were immediate, in the doctors office, immediately

> > following vaccination, in one case they initially tried to claim

> it was

> > somehow a bizarre coincidence, that it would have happened at

that

> very

> > moment anyway. Catastrophic collapse, organ failure, and death,

> as if

> > that could somehow happen naturally and out of the blue. When

> they can

> > deny that, how are they ever going to admit that the reaction 10

> days

> > after MMR which is the danger day, as we know, then vaccine

deaths

> will

> > never ever be truly recorded.

> >

> > And as more and more people see the attitudes of the medical

> community

> > and the pharmaceutical companies, such as in our case the

> advice, " just

> > have another baby " as if you can just replace the lost or damaged

> ones,

> > they have no real value.

> >

> > We are experiencing in our communities epidemics of Autism, bi-

> polar

> > disorder, childhood schiziophrenia, asthma, insulin dependent

> diabetes,

> > and even adult disorders in children like MS and skyrocketing

> cancer

> > rates. It is now rare to meet a children without a " disorder " of

> some

> > kind. No one has any answers for this except to try to convince

> us that

> > these devastating disorders have always been there and that

> somehow we

> > are just now recognizing them. Like autism could be subtly

> missed.

> > Even if we called it something else and it is " diagnostic

> substitution "

> > our schools would have still had to deal with these children, no

> matter

> > what their label. That is a fact. But we know, school districts

> are

> > being crushed under the load of neurological disorders and

learning

> > disabilities. Some schools can no longer take in any more, no

> matter

> > the seriousness. Special Ed experts that believed they would

> never see

> > a case of Autism in their entire careeers, now juggle caseloads of

> > Autistic kids. The schools are going broke and there is no end in

> sight.

> > In some areas where I live in Oregon there are " hot spots " where

> Autism

> > is actually 1 in every 25 students. In Southern county

> 1/3 of

> > all the young children there have one of three diagnoses; Autism,

> > bi-polar, or childhood schizophrenia. These are communities of

> 500 to

> > 1,000 people where we all grew up. We knew everyone in these

> towns our

> > entire lives. No one we knew growing up ever had Autism, bi-

> polar, or

> > childhood schizophrenia. What disabiities existed we all knew the

> > child. We knew every baby born, and none were spirited off

> unbeknownst

> > to the town folk and most definitely not in the numbers we see

> now.

> > These same tiny towns now have overflowing " Autism Classrooms "

and

> the

> > schools have established " drug cubbies " for the children where

each

> > child in the classroom has their drugs stored for school time

> > distribution, Risperdal, Ritalin, insulin, inhalers, epinephrine

> kits

> > for severe food allergies once unheard of or rare but now all too

> > common.

> >

> > So the answer is to try to convince us that our memories are

> faulty,

> > that this Autism, ADD/ADHD, an entire generation of kids that

> are " stuck

> > on sick " has always been there and we simply don't remember our

> > childhood correctly.

> >

> > When the CDC doesn't like the results of their own epidemiological

> > study, they do 4 more generations to get rid of the link from

> thimerisol

> > to Autism, and they wonder why they aren't convincing parents.

> Why did

> > they add in one generation, 1 to 3 year olds knowing they

wouldn't

> have

> > a diagnosis yet? Why did they add in another generation of study

> the

> > 16,000 kids originally excluded because they had been born with a

> birth

> > defect? Why did they in another generation of the study, decide

> to only

> > count " original " diagnosis, so if a child has a speech delay at 18

> > months, but at 3 was diagnosed with Autism, they would not be

> counted as

> > Autistic but only as speech delayed. Thank God for the freedom of

> > information act or people might have actually believed that they

> had not

> > found a link between thimerisol and Autism.

> >

> > Then they tell the American public that parent's testimonials are

> > untrusworthy, emotional, and traumatically induced " anectdotal "

> > information. Really? We put men to death in this country based

on

> > emotional and traumatically induced " eye-witness testimony " . Our

> > experiences are just that, " eye witness testimony " . The denials

> of our

> > testimonies speak more to profit margins than fact or reality.

> >

> > All they have to do is scientifically test thimerisol for safety,

> as

> > this has never been done in history, and still has not. Not

> > epidemiology but real science. Why do they still refuse to do

> that?

> > All they have to do is stop using our kids as guinea pigs, such

as

> the

> > HPV where it is released on the public while mandating data be

> kept for

> > the first five years because they have no idea what the reaction

> may be

> > for 9 year olds, as it was never tested on children, and they

have

> no

> > idea if it may cause infertility problems, or its own form of

> cancers.

> > They won't know all that for another 10 or 15 years, but our

> experience

> > tells us the connection would never be made or admitted to

> anyway. That

> > is the problem with vaccines and parental trust. They are asking

> us to

> > submit our children to this experiment that cannot be justified

by

> their

> > own preliminary studies. Where is the ethics in that please tell

> me?

> > Are the three deaths attributed to HPV vaccine an ethical trade-

> off for

> > the potential fight against a potential chance of contracting

> cervical

> > cancer? Three young once healthy girls are dead, even if they had

> > gotten cervical cancer as an adult, wouldn't they have had a

> chance to

> > survive and had lived at least part of their adult life?

> >

> > Until someone can answer what is so very wrong with our children,

> what

> > have we done to an entire generation of kids that will soon be

> aging

> > into the social security system in some cases at a rate of 1 in

25

> on

> > the public dole, then I will take my chances with chicken pox,

with

> > measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and even

> polio

> > and meningitis, but please do not make me deal with Autism. I

have

> > heard experts state, " even if vaccines caused Autism, the benefits

> > outweight the risks " . These idiots have never been in a home of

a

> child

> > with Autism. They have obviously never watched the parents plan

> for

> > their child's insitutionalization or group home decisions. They

> have

> > never watched parents denied insurance coverage for Autism

> treatments or

> > dropped from their insurance because their child has Autism.

They

> have

> > never watched these children biting themselves, banging their own

> heads

> > to the point of injury, pulling out their own hair, lashing out

at

> their

> > own loving parents. Never watched parents mortgage or sell their

> homes

> > to be able to care for their children, spent their retirement

> accounts

> > to pay for every day medical care. Never seen the 14 year olds

> that are

> > still not potty trained and love to smear their own feces on the

> home

> > walls. They have never know what it feels like to lose a child

> that is

> > still with you. Not dead, but gone all the same. Never watched

> parents

> > wonder why their doctor won't treat their child's serious medical

> > ailments that would be aggressively treated in a typical child,

as

> if

> > because they have Autism they deserve to suffer. I will take my

> chances

> > with any of those diseases, in fact please, I would trade Autism

> for any

> > single one of them thank you very much. It's ironic how even with

> > vaccines when there is an outbreak of measles, everyone rushes to

> > reassure parents that most kids easily recover and bad outcomes

> are very

> > very rare. But when trying to get vaccination rates up, the risk

> is

> > unspeakable.

> >

> > Your answer to me as usual addressed not one of my arguments or

> > concerns. And, you proved my argument that our dead children

have

> no

> > value or worth, but those poor children that died of meningitis,

> now

> > that is a travesty.

> >

> > That is what happens when you mandate. A child can die of a

> naturally

> > occurring disease and another child can die of a government

> mandated

> > lethal injection. Where is the ethics in all that? Why is one

> life

> > lost a travesty and the other a necessary sacrifice? Do you

think

> it

> > feels any different to either parent? Is one more right or wrong

> than

> > the other? It seems odd to me that someone that is suppose to be

> from a

> > learning insitution examining ethics is so one sided about this

> matter.

> > I take it from your reply that you at least admit that " some " (who

> knows

> > really how many) but some children have died as a result of a

> reaction

> > to vaccines (the existence of our vaccine courts is proof we know

> an

> > unknown percentage will be killed or damaged). As a bioethicist

> what is

> > an ethical tradeoff? 1 child sacrificed for every 100 saved? Is

> there

> > an ethical tradeoff? Would the parents of that one child see it

> that

> > way? In America we say one life is not more valuable than

> another.

> > Shipwreck victims floating at sea cannot kill and eat the cabin

> boy to

> > save the rest, they have been and will be charged with murder,

but

> we

> > can knowingly kill a percentage of children to save others. Is

it

> ok

> > because we don't yet know which ones will react or who they are?

> Is it

> > because we don't know yet which ones will be the cabin boy and

> which

> > ones will be the ship captain? Would it be different if we

knew?

> If

> > the government picked out the 1 in 1,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000

and

> > called them ahead of time and said, Mrs. , your child came

> up in

> > the vaccine death lottery and will be sacrificed for the good of

> others?

> > I have a feeling it would be differnt then, yet the outcome is no

> > different.

> >

> > Do you really believe that pharmaceutical ethics are any

different

> when

> > it comes to vaccines than they are with pain killers, drugs such

as

> > Vioxx? Why would we believe the underlying motiviations are any

> > different? We know that the Hepatitis B vaccines kills and

> injures more

> > children than ever even caught this disease in the US, this alone

> is

> > proof of motives and the true agenda.

> >

> > I would expect someone that claims to be interested in ethics to

> be more

> > open to seeing the travesties, devastation, and rights of both

> sides of

> > an issue. Apparently for you ethics is only on the side of

> mandates,

> > and not on freedom of choice and allowing parents to make truly

> educated

> > decisions on the health of their own children.

> >

> > You are having a dialogue with someone that has experienced

> the " other

> > side " first hand. You cannot even acknowledge my own human

> story. This

> > is what is wrong with mandates. It is blanket orders,

> > one-size-fits-all, blind sided human policy. Our side is about

> > individuals, choice, lives, faces, names, humans, compassion. I

> cannot

> > devalue or downplay one single death of a child, but to justify

the

> > death of one in the name of others is beyond my comprehension and

> no

> > longer a sacrifice my family is willing to make. The ultimate

> betrayal

> > and motives was revealed to me when a pediatrician acknowledged

our

> > childrens' severe reactions, and then followed it up with, " we

> don't

> > know which one of the six vaccines actually caused the reaction,

> so we

> > should continue vaccines one at a time " . Sounds a bit like

Russian

> > Roullette doesn't it? What you haven't actually killed this

child

> yet?

> > What was he proposing would be the outcome when we " hit " on the

> one that

> > was the culprit? Was he not acknowledging that it could have

been

> the

> > combination of six at once, several of which were trivalents? The

> > system is sick and broken. Your ridiculous proposal is not part

> of an

> > answer but would only add to a huge problem.

> >

> > How about these mandates: honesty, transparency in approval and

> testing

> > of vaccines and their ingredients, separation of the watchdog

> agencies

> > from the promoters of vaccines, ending the revolving doors of

> regulators

> > and pharmaceuticals, a true accounting of the real dangers. Many

> years

> > ago they denied the DTP was dangerous or had caused any injuries

or

> > deaths, but parents and action groups got it replaced with the

> DTaP and

> > now those same agencies reference when the more dangerous and

> sometimes

> > deadly DTP was used. So apparently at the time they were lying.

I

> > imagine 20 years from now they will reference the time before

they

> knew

> > how devastating and damaging injecting mercury into infants and

> toddlers

> > was. Only in America could we be debating the injecting of

> innocent

> > babies with the 2nd most toxic substance on earth. There doesn't

> even

> > have to be PROOF of damage to know you just don't do that at any

> cost or

> > any trade off. Would you like to discuss ethics in relation to

> that?

> > Please! Don't talk to me about protecting innocent children,

while

> > insinuating that by not vaccinating I am putting 'others' at

> risk. I

> > have watched two children collapse following vaccines, one became

> > autistic from that point forward and the other was lowered into

the

> > ground in a two foot long pearl-white casket. If you cannot even

> > acknowledge the travesty and reality of that, you do not belong

in

> this

> > argument and certainly not espousing potential policy that

affects

> the

> > lives of people like me. I am not saying you have to have a

horse

> in

> > the race to participate, but you do have to feed and water all the

> > horses.

> >

> > Thank You,

> >

> > Kendra Pettengill

> >

>

-- Georga

Sign In

RE: Arthur Caplan Wrote Vaccines should be mandated for homeschooled

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Activity