Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity

June 8, 2007

Also, , some adult Aspies are biomedically treating themselves

and their children (not for Asperger's, but for heavy metal

toxicities, GI issues, viruses, etc.). Those who are not, are not

wasting their time and energy spewing hatred toward parents of kids on

the spectrum who are treating biomedically. The NDers are the ones

spewing their hate toward parents who are biomedically treating their

kids.

I believe either you are ill informed about NDers and who represents

the NDers (some are NOT on the spectrum), or possibly you are here for

another reason.

Follow the trail (money) of the Autism Hub - it shouldn't surprise you.

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > >

> > > > I appreciate what you are saying and think you could

> > possibly

> > > be a

> > > > bridge to the gap. However I would like to address the

> > > word " normal " . I

> > > > think it's an inaccurate word that might be what's causing the

> > big

> > > divide.

> > > > Most of us want our kids to function as individuals with their

> > own

> > > say and

> > > > be able to make in this world independently. So maybe what we

> > > should be

> > > > saying is that we are striving to help our children to achieve

> > > independence

> > > > rather than normalcy. My son had absolutely no signs of being

> on

> > > any part

> > > > of the spectrum until regression. He would follow his big

> sister

> > > around and

> > > > imitate and play with her as well as interact with me and my

> > > husband

> > > > beautifully. He pointed, smiled, laughed, had early speech,

> > > imitation

> > > > skills were fantastic, etc. Only with regression after vaccs

> did

> > > any sign

> > > > of social difference, extreme speech impairment, physical

> > illness,

> > > etc.

> > > > begin. I am striving to help what was my healthy, happy,

> > > extremely engaged

> > > > child return through healing his physical illness created by

> > > toxins and

> > > > viral reactions by vaccines. I know how smart these kids are

> > even

> > > the ones

> > > > who have no way of expressing that. Often I feel the ND camp

> > does

> > > not

> > > > realize that about us biomed parents. We all know the

> > > intelligence is

> > > > there, we are just on the quest to either " bring them back " or

> > > realize their

> > > > full potential in what they were meant to be beyond toxicity. -

> > >

> > > >

> > > > _____

> > > >

> > > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On

> > > Behalf Of

> > > > Bice

> > > > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 11:12 AM

> > > > EOHarm

> > > > Subject: Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > >

> > > > This is where I, and many individuals on the spectrum do get

> > > > offended. (Also, being compared to a wacked out scientologist

> > > isn't

> > > > nice, either) Neurodiverse brains are not broken, IMO many

> things

> > > in

> > > > the environment (including viruses) can cause regression, or

> more

> > > > severe symptoms in the neurodiverse. Genetically, the

> > neurodiverse

> > > > are different, perhaps due to evolution. We no longer

> need " pack

> > > > mentality " if you will, or the associated social skills as

> > > necessary

> > > > for survival. In today's society, it is more critical to know

> how

> > > to

> > > > run IT systems, and communicate via the internet. Humankind

> needs

> > > to

> > > > rely on our social animal less each decade.

> > > >

> > > > The difference is that the cheerleaders and prom kings cannot

> > > accept

> > > > a child with asperger's because they cannot understand them.

> That

> > > is

> > > > why I think something different is now happening to cause

> > > > neurotypicals to have children with autistic symptoms.

> > > >

> > > > Sometimes I feel very sad for these families, as many parents

> > just

> > > > cannot comprehend why their child might be doing something.

> > > >

> > > > I have seen purpose behind most of Jade's actions. What some

> > > > consider stimming, for example, picking fluff and blowing it,

> is

> > > > actually learning the very complex processes of math and

> physics.

> > > I

> > > > used to love to pick fluff out of things, couches, pillows,

> etc,

> > > and

> > > > watch them float, noting the speed and rate of descension of

> the

> > > > various sizes of fluff.

> > > >

> > > > Many of what I found were signs of autism, were not so odd in

> my

> > > > family. No one was alarmed that Jade was stacking blocks 3 feet

> > > > high, or could play with the same toy for hours until she

> > mastered

> > > > it. We could instantly understand when something was too loud

> and

> > > > upset her, because it bothered us, too. Jade flapping her hands

> > > was

> > > > never odd to us. I was actually surprised to learn that many

> > > things

> > > > I always considered normal, were actually

> considered " abnormal " ,

> > > and

> > > > signs of autism.

> > > >

> > > > Each time I leave Wal-mart- I feel I need to take a xanax. I

> hate

> > > > that place, I get dazed, confused, and have often just left my

> > > > shopping cart as I was about to have what I always thought were

> > > > anxiety attacks.

> > > >

> > > > I do agree that Asperger's and autism while being on the same

> > > > spectrum, are worlds apart. Yet both are on the

> same " spectrum " .

> > > > This is where the neurodiverse crowd and I differ.

> > > >

> > > > At the same time, I would not perpetuate the notion that Bill

> > > Gates

> > > > has a broken brain that needs fixing.

> > > >

> > > > The neurodiverse are not feeling unloved because you want to

> help

> > > > your children. I discovered this when explaining WHY I am using

> > > > biomed for Jade. I would be estatic if in 2 yrs she came away

> > with

> > > > the label of Asperger's. I don't want her to have communication

> > > > problems, facial tics, immune and gi dysfunction, and most

> agree

> > > > with this. That is what I am trying to " fix " in giving Jade

> > > > supplements.

> > > >

> > > > There are a great number of parents though, that will try

> > > anything,

> > > > and stop at nothing to make their child " normal " , when in all

> > > > actuality there is no definition of " normal " . (personally, I

> feel

> > > > that what is called " normal " is absolutely sickeningly BORING).

> > > >

> > > > The neurodiverse are feeling unloved and unaccepted because

> there

> > > > are many parents that refuse to believe the neurodiverse, as a

> > > > people exist, and have for years. The neurodiverse are

> different

> > > > from you. When you deny their existence, how can you ever

> accept

> > > > them?

> > > >

> > > > Think back to your school days, I'm sure everyone knew of the

> > > > incredibly smart kid, who had an inhaler, and got sick a bit

> > more.

> > > > He was different, but not so different that he could not

> function

> > > > through life. He was probably often shunned for acting weird,

> > > though.

> > > >

> > > > I think much of what the movement equates to is, so what if a

> > > person

> > > > cannot communicate like you, and rocks when they think, or need

> > > > to " take a break " . What if this person can design the most

> > > fabulous

> > > > bridges (or windows operating systems) known to man? Don't let

> > > their

> > > > differences hold them back from their true greatness. Accept

> them

> > > > for their assets, not shun them for their differences.

> > > > Unfortunately, this is what happens with our educational system

> > > and

> > > > society.

> > > >

> > > > I have also read many articles and studies detailing the amount

> > of

> > > > illness and allergies in the gifted, have they always been

> > > > mislabeled as gifted, rather than on the spectrum?

> > > >

> > > > I do agree that there has been a significant increase in severe

> > > > autism. Just ask any school system in this country. Most

> > > mainstream

> > > > the high functioning, or those labeled with Asperger's. (as

> most

> > > > cannot accomodate these children) We are getting better at

> > > > identifying these kids, and making accomodations. But you

> cannot

> > > > ignore the fact that the autistic programs have grown, and the

> > > > schools cannot keep up with the influx. Why is that, if there

> has

> > > > not been a true increase in autism?

> > > >

> > > > To put it mildly, aspergers is increasing due to better dx, and

> > > > expanding criteria. Severe, or " classic autism " (what Jade was

> dx

> > > > with) is increasing- IMO because of various toxins, and viruses.

> > > >

> > > > Biologically, and mentally the neurodiverse are different.

> > > > Unfortunately, something (my guess thimerosal) has caused the

> > same

> > > > immune dysfunction in your children that many on the spectrum

> > > have,

> > > > and due to viral insults, it has caused the same autistic

> > symptoms

> > > > Jade has.

> > > >

> > > > Remember, there is much to learn about autism. I am certain

> that

> > > > they will find many subgroups on the spectrum, within each

> > > > functioning level. How they got to that place on the spectrum

> is

> > > > most likely different as well. That is why this genetic hide

> and

> > > > seek game has hit genes all over the genome.

> > > >

> > > > I am also careful to note that these are my personal views and

> > > > feelings, I do not speak for any group of people, as there are

> > > > numerous varied opinions on both sides of this debacle.

> > > >

> > > > I would love to bridge this gap between the neurodiverse, and

> > > > neurotypical worlds. It really needs to happen, for all of our

> > > > children.

> > > >

> > > > Messages

> > > >

> > >

> >

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June 9, 2007

Anita,

Honestly, and I do not mean this as a criticism at all, but I think you

maybe just a bit oversensitive to this.

The fact is, while some self-diagnosed aspie adults may very well be

wrong about themselves, the actual diagnosis for asperger's were not

on the radar screen for most doctors in past years. It is no surprise that

there are people now slapping themselves across the forehead saying,

" So that's what was going on with me. "

I have a relative who, after learning about my son's diagnosis looked up

asperger's, did the same thing. Is he wrong? Well, he doesn't have some

of the symptoms my son has, but then my son is probably high

functioning autism rather than asperger's even though he got that diagnosis.

But, does he have enough to 'qualify' for aspie? Yes.

Does it offend me that he feels he has been enlightened about himself? No.

If anything, learning about asperger's made me recognize it in him before

he did. I never said a word to him about my thoughts, but he said it to me

later on.

One thing to keep in mind is that autism spectrum disorders run in families.

Children with autism are often siblings to aspies, or children of aspies or

relatives of aspies. It is also probably important to consider that no one is

actually looking up the criteria for autism spectrum disorders except people

who have a family member, most likely a child, on the spectrum. Is it any

wonder that some may recognize themselves in these descriptions?

Do I think people should be self-diagnosing? No...not really. I would prefer

that they go and get an actual evaluation to confirm this, but I also don't

expect most adults who feel they are aspies to do this. If they are getting

along in the world, there probably isn't any real reason for them to do this.

I also think that you are a bit misinformed about asperger's if you feel that

people, particularly adults, who hold jobs and have social circles cannot

possibly have asperger's. My son has friends, many actually. But, here is the

thing...he somehow managed to find every other kid in his school exactly

like himself or at least similar to himself. I should say, rather, they found

each other.

Their 'friendships' do not resemble exactly what you would expect from

most boys their age. They do not go out and tackle each other, catch

football, or ride on skateboards.

They sit in front of a playstation together for hours, compare Yu-Gi-Oh

card strength and quiz each other on star war facts.

A kid with aspergers does have the potential, not always but many, to learn

behaviors even if they do not always understand them or agree with them.

They know the " rules " which are extremely important to them and they follow

them (unless they make no sense at all in which they may refuse or want full

explanations as to why it is important). But, learning to fake " social

behavior " ,

usually by 'following the herd', does not make the world any less confusing

or difficult to live in, but they can sometimes manage well. It all depends on

each individual.

The criteria for asperger's is often a clearer picture when they are young, but

it evolves, mostly due to their level of intelligence which allows them to learn

and fake and get along even when they have no clue as to why they are

following another's lead.

It does not make them less aspie or less significantly affected simply because

they learned to hold a computer job, or attended a Star Trek convention.

Overall, I understand your concerns about self-diagnosing. But, with an

unclear view of asperger's to begin with, I wonder if you would be able to

judge whether or not someone who is an adult self recognized aspie truly

has the disorder or not.

As I said, this is not a criticism, but it is rather an observation. From the

things you said here and in the past, I just truly do not think you understand

the disorder of aspergers.

Col

-- In EOHarm , " Anita " <mysuperteach@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Anita,

> >

> > The reference about reading at the age of four as not being a

> reason to

> > diagnose from afar, I believe, is referencing my post. Perhaps I

> should

> > have clarified it more for you.

>

> I was referencing your post Col, as one example. But also

> referencing the video you refer to, where the " early " reading is

> referred to as if it somehow matters to the issue of autism. There

> are other examples I could give but these two were handy.

>

> >

> > The begining of her video references many hints other than just

> their

> > reading which made me guess this. I am certainly not diagnosing her

> > ...it was an observation that I might point out was correct.

>

> Correct as a self-diagnosis. We cannot be sure what this would mean

> as far as a recognized diagnosis, as far as I can see.

>

> >

> > Parents who have children on the spectrum do have an undeniable

> ability

> > to often pick another kid out in a crowd who is on the spectrum.

> Experience

> > teaches us things and we can then spot it. Maybe we are not always

> right,

> > but I would say that we probably are accurate many many times.

>

> This is true, when we see kids. However, when we're given partial,

> controlled information I don't see how we could have the same

> accuracy. If I told you that I was a very late talker but an early

> reader, count numbers obsessively when I have to wait for things, had

> anxiety attacks for a great part of my life, suffer from allergies,

> avoid many social situations, and obsess about certain things, then

> you might think that I could have some mild ASD. It wouldn't be true

> at all.

>

> >

> > Isn't that, in fact, the reason NAA and other autism organizations

> are

> > encouraging parents to approach other parents if we feel their

> child has

> > symptoms of autism spectrum disorders? Isn't it arguable that a

> parent with

> > experience can possibly help another to receive a diagnosis and

> then receive

> > services earlier?

>

> I agree completely. If we see a child who could obviously use some

> help, then I feel we have a moral obligation to step in, whether the

> help relates to an ASD or not.

>

> >

> > It is no different than the speculative discussion many had here

> last week

> > concerning the boy who won the spelling bee and his probably having

> > asperger's. People who believe Bill Gates has asperger's are doing

> the same

> > thing, and it is a question that Gates has refused to answer. That

> is certainly

> > his right as he is living in a free society and his privacy rights

> are in existance,

> > but none-the-less, his silence to the question certainly fueled

> discussion and,

> > frankly, gives some parents hope and a brighter outlook if their

> child has

> > asperger's.

>

> I think speculating about Bill Gates is a different thing than

> watching a child at the playground who, for example, doesn't speak,

> spins, and is covered with eczema and then approaching the parent.

>

> The thing that I feel we need to come back to is the DSM IV, for all

> of its flaws. It clearly states that the disturbances in social

> interaction and repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour

> cause " clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or

> other important areas of functioning " . How can we say that Bill

> Gates or people like Christschool are Asperger's when they have a

> social circle and jobs? That doesn't seem like significant

> impairment to me. Impairment perhaps, but who isn't impaired

> socially? Everyone I know is to some degree.

>

> But if it's not signficant impairment, it's not Asperger's.

>

> And if people argue that it was Asperger's but they worked through

> it, well, I think you could argue that it is no longer Asperger's.

> If a person is diagnosed with cancer, but overcomes it, we no longer

> say they have cancer. If a person is visually impaired, but receives

> an operation to rectify the problem, we no longer say they are

> visually impaired.

>

> >

> > You may not like people taking a guess here and there and then

> discussing it,

> > but it is going to happen and I don't think it is as dangerous as

> you seem to think.

> > If it were, then there would not be such a push for parents to

> inform other parents

> > when they recognize symptoms in another child.

>

> Again, I think the difference is that if we try to help a parent who

> may not be aware of the possible warning signs of autism, we are

> dealing with a child we see in front of us. And what we see in front

> of us is alarming enough to risk offending that parent (because it

> can). I think someone who takes this sort of step is trying to do

> something very positive, even if it turns out they were wrong.

>

> What we see in adults who either self-diagnose or are diagnosed from

> afar by others, rarely meets the actual criteria for Asperger's, let

> alone Autistic Disorder. I don't see this kind of thing as being

> positive, for the most part, because from what I've seen/read,

> inaccuracy is causing the terms that actually do apply to kids like

> yours and mine being altered, and not for the better.

>

> Anita

>

> >

> > Just my opinion.

> >

> > Col

> >

>

June 9, 2007

Finally many are coming over to my viewpoint which simply is.that there should be no such thing as classification of people according to how close or far they are from the mainstream definition of neurotypical. At the age of 4 I witnessed a black woman being savagely beated by a 2 bigotted policemen in South Africa. Her crime was, that she dared sit on a bench labelled "whites only" on a scorchingly hot day in order to suckle her infant. ! I realized then that something was wrong. "She is a human being just like me " I thought. Ever since then I've refused to see people as being different. I've said in many posts that everyone is on the AI spectrum. This is why I believe with every vestage and fibre of my being that SPecial education is crap that the approach to dealing with our kids in self contained classrooms is crap and that everyone should just be thrown

into the classroom and each classroom should have a main core teacher and two aides together with two to five volunteer parents rotating on a daily basis. I gurantee that this model will work. I don't even want to hear the buts............. The kids will start to see their fellow humans as equals and they will just accept that some learn differently and need different types of methods employed to help them understand and do the work. The outcome will be the same To all you who believe in this behavioural bullshit, I say this, treat all the kids as competant. let the peers reach in and help those they sense they can and kick all the credentialled PhD's the hell out. Behaviours are reflective of discriminatory treatment. The worse it is the more it ratchets up the ante of "bad behaviours" As soon as any kid perceives that those charged with their education and

care, believe in their cognitive competance, they will charge to the line in order to grab every opportunity to learn with and be amongst their fellow humanbeings. Now lets get on with playing the game by the same rules for everyone. Assume competance and tell those educators who don't believe that they're the ones afflicted with deficits because they don't know or want to know how to deal with those they classify as different. They need to exert effort to find the best avenues of access to reach those with NT difficulties and then find and outlet for expressive communication. There I've given you all the solution. Now let's get to it Take care best, n

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June 10, 2007

Theresa,

I have had the same experience...

I have been in love with the idea of inclusion...dreamt about,

yearned for my son to have it someday. Historically, he had split his

time between the reg ed classroom and his one-on-one in the SPED

room. His inclusion was mostly for art, music, gym, etc. Last fall,

his teachers decided to put him in the classroom 100% of the time

(without telling me) Within weeks, he melted down with aggressive and

self-injurious behavior. His classmate (ages 10-11) were devasted and

felt responsible in some way. We videotaped my son in the classroom

and it was truly heartbreaking.

My son now attends a private ABA/VB based school and is thriving. He

has made friends-I think he prefers being with HIS peers...he is

learning again, his vocabulary is improving...overall-he is calmer,

happier and more confident...

The proof is always in the pudding (and the data).

n, I do however, really like your idea for a regular ed

classroom. I used to volunteer in my daughter's classroom...So many

kids at grade 3,4,5 fall behind and need extra attention. Teachers

could really use the help from paras and parents...

Dana Connor

>

> Hi n,

>

> I must respectfully disagree.

>

> Apples and Oranges

>

> This sounds more like " natural determination " to me.

> That is discriminatory in itself.

> A one size fits all.

> One size does not fit all.

>

> As for the same rules for everyone.....

> I took those rose colored glasses off years ago.

>

> Spec. Ed.

> Special Education is not crap, it is a service to a need!

> A need my child has.

> I couldn't provide it.

> The reg ed. class couldn't provide it.

> The self contained class couldn't provide it.

> It took a specialized APS school to reach her, after a 9 yr fight.

> She is now in an APS school.

> Learning and thriving! (we still have a ways to go, playing catch

up)

>

> My other gifted child was a peer buddy.

> We supported it. It sounded wonderful.

> A win -win situation.

> Until he was made to be " responsible " for that child.

> He was pressured (caught all hell) for anything that went wrong.

> He and his education both suffered because of it.

> That was the end of that.

> So I know both sides of that.

>

> We are a Black family.

> And racism is still alive and well, unfortunately.

>

> Please, do not speak for my child, my family, or me.

> Speak for yourself, respectfully.

>

> Although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, of your good

intentions.

> (I'm a newbie here)

>

> Please remember...

> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

>

> Respectfully,

> Theresa in Pa.

>

> Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity

>

> Finally many are coming over to my viewpoint which simply is.that

there should be no such thing as classification of people according

to how close or far they are from the mainstream definition of

neurotypical.

>

> At the age of 4 I witnessed a black woman being savagely beated

by a 2 bigotted policemen in South Africa. Her crime was, that she

dared sit on a bench labelled " whites only " on a scorchingly hot day

in order to suckle her infant. !

>

> I realized then that something was wrong. " She is a human being

just like me " I thought. Ever since then I've refused to see people

as being different. I've said in many posts that everyone is on the

AI spectrum.

>

> This is why I believe with every vestage and fibre of my being

that SPecial education is crap that the approach to dealing with our

kids in self contained classrooms is crap and that everyone should

just be thrown into the classroom and each classroom should have a

main core teacher and two aides together with two to five volunteer

parents rotating on a daily basis.

>

> I gurantee that this model will work. I don't even want to hear

the buts.............

> The kids will start to see their fellow humans as equals and they

will just accept that some learn differently and need different types

of methods employed to help them understand and do the work. The

outcome will be the same

>

> To all you who believe in this behavioural bullshit, I say this,

treat all the kids as competant. let the peers reach in and help

those they sense they can and kick all the credentialled PhD's the

hell out. Behaviours are reflective of discriminatory treatment. The

worse it is the more it ratchets up the ante of " bad behaviours "

>

> As soon as any kid perceives that those charged with their

education and care, believe in their cognitive competance, they will

charge to the line in order to grab every opportunity to learn with

and be amongst their fellow humanbeings.

>

> Now lets get on with playing the game by the same rules for

everyone. Assume competance and tell those educators who don't

believe that they're the ones afflicted with deficits because they

don't know or want to know how to deal with those they classify as

different. They need to exert effort to find the best avenues of

access to reach those with NT difficulties and then find and outlet

for expressive communication.

>

> There I've given you all the solution. Now let's get to it

> Take care best,

> n

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

> You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with

AutoCheck<http://us.rd./evt=47959/*http://advision.webevents.

/mailbeta/newmail_html.html>

> in the all-new Beta.

>

June 10, 2007

SOrry but you're wrong. The veery notion that you believe your son belongs does better elsewhere, einforces the concept of Separate Development (which by the way was the euphemism used by the Apartheid bigots) to coerce collusion and acceptance of their discriminatory policies. You're free to think and believe whatever you want. I just know that sepatration reinforces mainstream thinking into believing that kids more affected by Autism ARE DIFFERENT and therefore must be fixed before they can function in the NT world. My point is that there shouldn't be an NT world, because it only arose out of the concept of mass producing goods and services based upon a preponderance of people being able to use them.and...that's why a wheelchair costs eg. 1500$ where as a regular office chair on wheels costs only say 50$ at costco. this only occurs because you're willing to see your kid as different.

He's not, he has difficulties and that's it. The edication system has no right to set itself up to serve waht the majority do or how they function. It is a one size fits all but in the wrong sense. I guarantee that if your son gets bitten by a Puffadder snake, he'll succumb to the poison in exactly the same manner as Lance Armstrong would if he were bitten. That's just it. There shouldn't be a special school for anybody. An institution of learning should cater to everyone. It's high time the administrations of these institutions started treating everyone the same. The net result will be the elimination of discrimination, because, all it is, is merely the adherance to the notion that if we continue to see and classify people as being different, we'll treat them as such, and it becomes a slippery slope because, those in power make the ignorant decisions which

negate and devalue those whom they perceive don't fit their mass production moulds. I'm not speaking for your son or anybody elses. I'm merely expressing a confirmed opinion. I've seen too much discrimination for me not to conclude as I have Again, I say, you're free to believe and practise what you will, but the only outcome is going to be the perpetuation of this internecine cycle of negating kids with difficulties to the ranks of the inferior. I sincerely wish you well and I hope your son continues to improve Take care n

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June 10, 2007

Col,

This will be my last post on this subject. I'm not sure if you've

read the letters Discover chose to publish following the Neimark

article we all felt was a great step forward for our community.

Holly put them in the files section just recently. But when I first

read them at home, I was very discouraged by a couple of them.

Read the one by Bonnie Ventura, Administrator for Aspergerian Pride.

It confirms for me that she has very tenuous grip on reality, but

more importantly, it reaffirms for me how we must try to use terms

correctly. She identifies herself as " autistic " although Aspergerian

Pride is very clear in that " Aspergian Pride makes no distinctions

between those who have an official diagnosis and those who have

chosen to identify with the autistic community for other reasons " .

So now, in a very public forum, we have someone " autistic " making

statements that I think border on the insane, but will nonetheless be

accepted by many people because this woman has " credentials " .

The next letter, by Kallen, strikes me as just the sort of smug

bullshit that has allowed doctors to both damage and ignore our

kids. However, let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt he very

likely doesn't deserve. What if he sees only high functioning

Asperger's kids in his practice. Nataf's study shows that many of

these kids are no more metal toxic than the controls. There is the

tiniest chance this guy is right: his experience is that

the " autistic " kids he sees really aren't that much more ill than NT

kids (who I think we would all agree are pretty generally ill

themselves). If he sees all of this as one thing, then he would

obviously believe his own letter (I don't, just to be clear, but I am

making an argument that I believe can be transferred to many

situations).

It would seem to me that in the context of this conversation (both

the article itself and the letters that follow) making some

distinctions about what autism can look like would actually be a good

thing. I think that this argument stands separate from whether you

believe I am oversensitive to this issue or ignorant of what

Asperger's really is.

Anita

>

> Anita,

>

> Honestly, and I do not mean this as a criticism at all, but I think

you

> maybe just a bit oversensitive to this.

>

> The fact is, while some self-diagnosed aspie adults may very well

be

> wrong about themselves, the actual diagnosis for asperger's were

not

> on the radar screen for most doctors in past years. It is no

surprise that

> there are people now slapping themselves across the forehead

saying,

> " So that's what was going on with me. "

>

> I have a relative who, after learning about my son's diagnosis

looked up

> asperger's, did the same thing. Is he wrong? Well, he doesn't have

some

> of the symptoms my son has, but then my son is probably high

> functioning autism rather than asperger's even though he got that

diagnosis.

> But, does he have enough to 'qualify' for aspie? Yes.

>

> Does it offend me that he feels he has been enlightened about

himself? No.

> If anything, learning about asperger's made me recognize it in him

before

> he did. I never said a word to him about my thoughts, but he said

it to me

> later on.

>

> One thing to keep in mind is that autism spectrum disorders run in

families.

> Children with autism are often siblings to aspies, or children of

aspies or

> relatives of aspies. It is also probably important to consider that

no one is

> actually looking up the criteria for autism spectrum disorders

except people

> who have a family member, most likely a child, on the spectrum. Is

it any

> wonder that some may recognize themselves in these descriptions?

>

> Do I think people should be self-diagnosing? No...not really. I

would prefer

> that they go and get an actual evaluation to confirm this, but I

also don't

> expect most adults who feel they are aspies to do this. If they are

getting

> along in the world, there probably isn't any real reason for them

to do this.

>

> I also think that you are a bit misinformed about asperger's if you

feel that

> people, particularly adults, who hold jobs and have social circles

cannot

> possibly have asperger's. My son has friends, many actually. But,

here is the

> thing...he somehow managed to find every other kid in his school

exactly

> like himself or at least similar to himself. I should say, rather,

they found

> each other.

>

> Their 'friendships' do not resemble exactly what you would expect

from

> most boys their age. They do not go out and tackle each other,

catch

> football, or ride on skateboards.

>

> They sit in front of a playstation together for hours, compare Yu-

Gi-Oh

> card strength and quiz each other on star war facts.

>

> A kid with aspergers does have the potential, not always but many,

to learn

> behaviors even if they do not always understand them or agree with

them.

> They know the " rules " which are extremely important to them and

they follow

> them (unless they make no sense at all in which they may refuse or

want full

> explanations as to why it is important). But, learning to

fake " social behavior " ,

> usually by 'following the herd', does not make the world any less

confusing

> or difficult to live in, but they can sometimes manage well. It all

depends on

> each individual.

>

> The criteria for asperger's is often a clearer picture when they

are young, but

> it evolves, mostly due to their level of intelligence which allows

them to learn

> and fake and get along even when they have no clue as to why they

are

> following another's lead.

>

> It does not make them less aspie or less significantly affected

simply because

> they learned to hold a computer job, or attended a Star Trek

convention.

>

> Overall, I understand your concerns about self-diagnosing. But,

with an

> unclear view of asperger's to begin with, I wonder if you would be

able to

> judge whether or not someone who is an adult self recognized aspie

truly

> has the disorder or not.

>

> As I said, this is not a criticism, but it is rather an

observation. From the

> things you said here and in the past, I just truly do not think you

understand

> the disorder of aspergers.

>

> Col

>

June 10, 2007

AMEN. The Tsunami is coming....the educational system is not prepared. The day rapidly approaching where 50% or greater population needs "accomodations." They have no CLUE how to do this correctly. They cannot properly educate the gifted, let alone educate those with alternative educational demands. Instead of spending time and money fighting parents they should rethink and retool their systems so they are PREPARED for what's at their doorstep. Sophian Wendrow <reedicalousisay@...> wrote: That's just it. There shouldn't be a special school for anybody. An institution of learning should cater to everyone. It's high time the administrations of these institutions started treating everyone the

same. The net result will be the elimination of discrimination, because, all it is, is merely the adherance to the notion that if we continue to see and classify people as being different, we'll treat them as such, and it becomes a slippery slope because, those in power make the ignorant decisions which negate and devalue those whom they perceive don't fit their mass production moulds.

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June 10, 2007

Simply stated ...... it is the teachers and educators who need the special training in order to know how to teach kids with difficulties BUT it is NOT the kids who need special education Having a specialty is fine in the subjective sense of developing an interest, building on natural ability/ies. That's what a mechanic or neurosurgeon does. That's an individual assessment of individual strengths, talents etc.and building thereupon...........The difference enters when society collectively views, classifies and derives treatments, approaches, participatory access to people in a certain manner based upon fallacious assumptions derived from their or its initial cursory visual imprint. Our kids deserve better than to have to proove their competance before being allowed to participate, or even worse being deemed worthy of being allowed to participate. The belief by and practices

of society that it knows how to deal with our kids, is exactly waht leads to the battles we all have endured with trying to get services. As long as Sp Ed persisits, our kids will be viewed as being broken but, they're not, they have physical limits which hinder their being able to participate but ONLY because the lesson plans of teachers are functionally drawn up to cater to the NT normal kids...but hey.. the reality that so many kids learn differently is now becoming more apparent than ever. This is why I know that every kid should have an IEP. That's where the determination of strengths etc will be identified and catered for. This is precisely why I state that education and teaching needs to alter from its current format to one of teams educating kids in a classroom under the leadership of a person trained in the knowledge of the curriculum content so that substantive core material is the focus but how it's

conveyed is developed according to the individual capabilities of each kid. This is where the discrimination will diminish to hopeful nonexistance, because all the kids will be rowing in the same boat feeding off eachother and seeing the personalities evolve because none would feel inferior or stupid because they'd all be coping adequately because the positive environment would be conducive to productive output. So again I re-iterate.it's the teachers/educators who need the special training, NOT the kids who need special education Take care, best, n Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity Posted by: "Anita" mysuperteach@... mysuperteach Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:47 am (PST) Col,This will be my last post on this subject. I'm not sure if you've read the letters Discover chose to publish following the Neimark article we all felt was a great step forward for our community. Holly put them in the files section just recently. But when I first read them at home, I was very discouraged by a couple of them. Read the one by Bonnie Ventura, Administrator for Aspergerian Pride. It confirms for me that she has very tenuous grip on reality, but more importantly, it reaffirms for me how we must try

to use terms correctly. She identifies herself as "autistic" although Aspergerian Pride is very clear in that "Aspergian Pride makes no distinctions between those who have an official diagnosis and those who have chosen to identify with the autistic community for other reasons". So now, in a very public forum, we have someone "autistic" making statements that I think border on the insane, but will nonetheless be accepted by many people because this woman has "credentials" .The next letter, by Kallen, strikes me as just the sort of smug bullshit that has allowed doctors to both damage and ignore our kids. However, let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt he very likely doesn't deserve. What if he sees only high functioning Asperger's kids in his practice. Nataf's study shows that many of these kids are no more metal toxic than the controls. There is the tiniest chance this guy is right: his experience is that

the "autistic" kids he sees really aren't that much more ill than NT kids (who I think we would all agree are pretty generally ill themselves). If he sees all of this as one thing, then he would obviously believe his own letter (I don't, just to be clear, but I am making an argument that I believe can be transferred to many situations).It would seem to me that in the context of this conversation (both the article itself and the letters that follow) making some distinctions about what autism can look like would actually be a good thing. I think that this argument stands separate from whether you believe I am oversensitive to this issue or ignorant of what Asperger's really is.AnitaThat's just it. There shouldn't be a special school for anybody. An institution of learning should cater to everyone. It's high time the administrations of these institutions started treating everyone the same. The net result will be the elimination of discrimination, because, all it is, is merely the adherance to the notion that if we continue to see and classify people as being different, we'll treat them as such, and it becomes a slippery slope because, those in power make the ignorant decisions which negate and devalue those whom they perceive don't fit their mass production moulds. ------------ --------- --------- ---Finding fabulous fares is fun.Let FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (61) 1.3. Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity Posted by: "JOHN and THERESA QUARLES" blacklab629@... theresamq Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:56 am (PST) Hi n,Everyone is different.To ignore those differences and/or the needs that come with it is wrong.I'd like to think of my daughter's school as a "specialty" school.They are specialized at what they do.They can deliver services to many children that learn/ need to be taught in the same way.Bottom line when you do the same thing day in and day out. You get darn good at it.I don't care what it is.Think cars.If I am a mechanic who works on nothing but (pick a brand).I'll

be very knowledgeable concerning said brand.Specialty.Just like I would not take my child to the cardiologist, to treat a broken leg.Specialty.The outcome for my daughter....She may be able to be self sufficient one day. Have a job and a life of her choosing.Left in reg. ed. she would not be able to do anything except collect SS disability, and be a couch potato.Which life would you want for your child?Theresa in Pa. Re: Dini- what is neurodiversitySOrry but you're wrong. The veery notion that you believe your son belongs does better elsewhere, einforces the concept of Separate Development (which by the way was the euphemism used by the Apartheid bigots) to coerce collusion and acceptance of their discriminatory policies.You're free to think and believe whatever you want. I just know that sepatration reinforces mainstream thinking into believing that kids more affected by Autism ARE DIFFERENT and therefore must be fixed before they can function in the NT world.My point is that there shouldn't be an NT world, because it only arose out of the concept of mass producing goods and services based upon a preponderance of people being able to use them.and...that' s why a wheelchair costs eg. 1500$ where as a regular office chair on

wheels costs only say 50$ at costco. this only occurs because you're willing to see your kid as different. He's not, he has difficulties and that's it. The edication system has no right to set itself up to serve waht the majority do or how they function. It is a one size fits all but in the wrong sense. I guarantee that if your son gets bitten by a Puffadder snake, he'll succumb to the poison in exactly the same manner as Lance Armstrong would if he were bitten.That's just it. There shouldn't be a special school for anybody. An institution of learning should cater to everyone. It's high time the administrations of these institutions started treating everyone the same. The net result will be the elimination of discrimination, because, all it is, is merely the adherance to the notion that if we continue to see and classify people as being different, we'll treat them as such, and it becomes a slippery slope because, those in power make the ignorant

decisions which negate and devalue those whom they perceive don't fit their mass production moulds.I'm not speaking for your son or anybody elses. I'm merely expressing a confirmed opinion. I've seen too much discrimination for me not to conclude as I haveAgain, I say, you're free to believe and practise what you will, but the only outcome is going to be the perpetuation of this internecine cycle of negating kids with difficulties to the ranks of the inferior.I sincerely wish you well and I hope your son continues to improveTake care

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

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June 10, 2007

I rarely post here, but I have to strongly disagree on the concept of "put all kids in a classroom together... etc". First off, the school systems are NOT adequately staffed, nor do they have the funds to pull this off. It's not that it would fail, it's that it IS failing. My son could not function in a mainstreamed PE class with a full time one-on-one aide. Too much stimulation, too many kids, too many rules he could not understand (he's in kindergarten by the way). We had to put him back in adaptive PE WITH the aide where he returned to functioning much better. Know what the school's idea was for next year when there is no adaptive PE available and are refusing an aide for him? A 6th grade buddy. Yeah, because an untrained 6th grader will be able to guide my son when a trained aide couldn't. In theory, it sounds great to put the children together. But in reality it

won't work. School systems are required to do the minimum a child needs to be able to function. Not the ideal, the minimum. And the concept of "least restrictive environment" I believe REALLY means least restrictive to the teachers and school. They have a few holes and a bunch of pegs and every peg is different, but they're forcing the pegs into the holes regardless of what the peg really needs. FWIW, we're pulling my son from public and putting him into a private school for next year. Ratio is 2:1. The lead teacher has her masters in special education, aide (who's been with her for about 15 years), an OT and ST. My son will finallly be learning the foundation he needs to be able to eventually mainstream back into a typical classroom. My goal is the highest level of independence for my son. The public school did NOTHING for his independence this past year by mainstreaming him, nor does he have a

single friend from his class. I give a rats ass about inclusion at this point. Sorry. I'll go back to lurking now. Thanks,

June 10, 2007

n, you are right...but there is no way school districts can

financially accomodate this model...and due to the brain damage

inflicted upon our children, their sensory systems cannot handle the

lighting, noise, chaos and confusion found in most school

environments...My son can't process any language past 4 or 5 words...

So is it fair to him and the other non-brain damaged kids who are

ready to learn age appropriate material? My son is keenly aware of

his limitations...I don't need to rub his nose in it.

Many autistic children do very well in a reg ed setting...and they

have every right to be there...many children simply cannot do

it...while the other children are learning advanced concepts (as they

have the right to), my son is still struggling with his colors and

what a circle is...to ask to go to the bathroom or tell us he is sick

or thirsty...the stuff the rest of us take for granted...the results

are a huge sense of frustration and failure...it impacts my son's

self esteem...

My son is learning to communicate and be independent, which he now

has access to with his private school. As his mom, it is my job to

see this happen. I agree with you in theory, but I feel that you are

attacking those parents that have been there, done that, without

success. We see great success with special placement.

We have all been trying to fight the system...for the last 10 years I

have waited for proper research, waited for the school districts and

the state to do the right thing...in the meantime, we get to watch

our kids suffer in the most profound way...they get suspended from

school for " bad " behavior, required to be medicated on cocktails of

powerful drugs, some end up in institutions... they learn nothing

except frustration and sadness.

How humane is that?

If you want to talk about human rights...Our children have a RIGHT to

a free and appropriate education...

Theresa, thank you for your eloquent words and support. Carolyn,

thank you for the article...it's a gem!

Dana Connor

EOHarm , n Wendrow <reedicalousisay@...> wrote:

>

> Simply stated ......

> it is the teachers and educators who need the special training

in order to know how to teach kids with difficulties BUT it is NOT

the kids who need special education Having a specialty is fine in

the subjective sense of developing an interest, building on natural

ability/ies. That's what a mechanic or neurosurgeon does. That's an

individual assessment of individual strengths, talents etc.and

building thereupon...........The difference enters when society

collectively views, classifies and derives treatments, approaches,

participatory access to people in a certain manner based upon

fallacious assumptions derived from their or its initial cursory

visual imprint. Our kids deserve better than to have to proove

their competance before being allowed to participate, or even worse

being deemed worthy of being allowed to participate. The belief by

and practices of society that it knows how to deal with our kids, is

exactly waht leads to the battles we all have endured

> with trying to get services. As long as Sp Ed persisits, our

kids will be viewed as being broken but, they're not, they have

physical limits which hinder their being able to participate but ONLY

because the lesson plans of teachers are functionally drawn up to

cater to the NT normal kids...but hey.. the reality that so many kids

learn differently is now becoming more apparent than ever. This is

why I know that every kid should have an IEP. That's where the

determination of strengths etc will be identified and catered for.

This is precisely why I state that education and teaching needs to

alter from its current format to one of teams educating kids in a

classroom under the leadership of a person trained in the knowledge

of the curriculum content so that substantive core material is the

focus but how it's conveyed is developed according to the individual

capabilities of each kid. This is where the discrimination will

diminish to hopeful nonexistance, because all the

> kids will be rowing in the same boat feeding off eachother and

seeing the personalities evolve because none would feel inferior or

stupid because they'd all be coping adequately because the positive

environment would be conducive to productive output. So again I re-

iterate.it's the teachers/educators who need the special training,

NOT the kids who need special education Take care, best, n

Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity

>

> Posted by: " Anita " mysuperteach@... mysuperteach Sun Jun

10, 2007 4:47 am (PST) Col,

>

> This will be my last post on this subject. I'm not sure if you've

> read the letters Discover chose to publish following the Neimark

> article we all felt was a great step forward for our community.

> Holly put them in the files section just recently. But when I first

> read them at home, I was very discouraged by a couple of them.

>

> Read the one by Bonnie Ventura, Administrator for Aspergerian

Pride.

> It confirms for me that she has very tenuous grip on reality, but

> more importantly, it reaffirms for me how we must try to use terms

> correctly. She identifies herself as " autistic " although

Aspergerian

> Pride is very clear in that " Aspergian Pride makes no distinctions

> between those who have an official diagnosis and those who have

> chosen to identify with the autistic community for other reasons " .

> So now, in a very public forum, we have someone " autistic " making

> statements that I think border on the insane, but will nonetheless

be

> accepted by many people because this woman has " credentials " .

>

> The next letter, by Kallen, strikes me as just the sort of smug

> bullshit that has allowed doctors to both damage and ignore our

> kids. However, let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt he very

> likely doesn't deserve. What if he sees only high functioning

> Asperger's kids in his practice. Nataf's study shows that many of

> these kids are no more metal toxic than the controls. There is the

> tiniest chance this guy is right: his experience is that

> the " autistic " kids he sees really aren't that much more ill than

NT

> kids (who I think we would all agree are pretty generally ill

> themselves). If he sees all of this as one thing, then he would

> obviously believe his own letter (I don't, just to be clear, but I

am

> making an argument that I believe can be transferred to many

> situations).

>

> It would seem to me that in the context of this conversation (both

> the article itself and the letters that follow) making some

> distinctions about what autism can look like would actually be a

good

> thing. I think that this argument stands separate from whether you

> believe I am oversensitive to this issue or ignorant of what

> Asperger's really is.

>

> Anita

>

> That's just it. There shouldn't be a special school for anybody. An

institution of learning should cater to everyone. It's high time the

administrations of these institutions started treating everyone the

same. The net result will be the elimination of discrimination,

because, all it is, is merely the adherance to the notion that if we

continue to see and classify people as being different, we'll treat

them as such, and it becomes a slippery slope because, those in power

make the ignorant decisions which negate and devalue those whom they

perceive don't fit their mass production moulds.

>

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> Messages in this topic (61)

>

> 1.3.

> Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity Posted by: " JOHN and

THERESA QUARLES " blacklab629@... theresamq Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:56

am (PST) Hi n,

>

> Everyone is different.

> To ignore those differences and/or the needs that come with it is

wrong.

>

> I'd like to think of my daughter's school as a " specialty " school.

> They are specialized at what they do.

> They can deliver services to many children that learn/ need to be

taught in the same way.

> Bottom line when you do the same thing day in and day out. You get

darn good at it.

> I don't care what it is.

>

> Think cars.

> If I am a mechanic who works on nothing but (pick a brand).

> I'll be very knowledgeable concerning said brand.

> Specialty.

> Just like I would not take my child to the cardiologist, to treat a

broken leg.

> Specialty.

>

> The outcome for my daughter....

> She may be able to be self sufficient one day.

> Have a job and a life of her choosing.

>

> Left in reg. ed. she would not be able to do anything except

collect SS disability, and be a couch potato.

> Which life would you want for your child?

>

> Theresa in Pa.

>

> Re: Dini- what is neurodiversity

>

> SOrry but you're wrong. The veery notion that you believe your son

belongs does better elsewhere, einforces the concept of Separate

Development (which by the way was the euphemism used by the Apartheid

bigots) to coerce collusion and acceptance of their discriminatory

policies.

>

> You're free to think and believe whatever you want. I just know

that sepatration reinforces mainstream thinking into believing that

kids more affected by Autism ARE DIFFERENT and therefore must be

fixed before they can function in the NT world.

>

> My point is that there shouldn't be an NT world, because it only

arose out of the concept of mass producing goods and services based

upon a preponderance of people being able to use them.and...that' s

why a wheelchair costs eg. 1500$ where as a regular office chair on

wheels costs only say 50$ at costco. this only occurs because you're

willing to see your kid as different. He's not, he has difficulties

and that's it.

>

> The edication system has no right to set itself up to serve waht

the majority do or how they function. It is a one size fits all but

in the wrong sense.

>

> I guarantee that if your son gets bitten by a Puffadder snake,

he'll succumb to the poison in exactly the same manner as Lance

Armstrong would if he were bitten.