Re: question about IEP

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

In my opinion a placement decision must be made by the team, which includes

you.I would use the guidelines of LRE .Reading your post this school

enviroment would not be the least restrictive enviroment for him. I would

take that stance and see how it goes.

Charlyne,Pete,Cait LD 20,Zeb DS-? 8

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

First let me say that although I dont' post much, I am reading all of

everyone's posts and praying daily for everyone on this list. It is such

blessing to me to be part of a great group of devoted families!

Now for my question:

It concerns placement decision for next year. Matt is 10, 3rd grade, in

our local elementary school. They are building another " sister " school at

the same site, and it opens next fall, although the building wont' be

completed until at least Christmas, probably closer to Easter. In the

mean time, students assigned to the new school will attend in portables

on the grounds of yet another elementary school, with a school day of

10am to 4 pm. The way the zoning works is that all of us (everyone zoned

for our school) will now be " dual zoned " for Vanderburg (Matt's current

school)/Twitchell (the new one).They make decisions about who attends

what school, if not enough " volunteers " are present to switch, by

" balancing " both schools with all types of students. It was explained to

me by the special ed teacher that " we have 40 special ed kids here. 1/2

of " them " will have to go. Everyone is saying this will be too disruptive

on THEIR child. We have to do what we have to do " .

I went and talked to the new principal, and she is a wonderful woman. She

truely " gets it " . She talked about having a general staff meeting to

explain to all teachers and support staff about Matt, his needs, and how

each person can help in supporting him. And it got better from there.

Then we walked around the temporary campus and talked about the physical

surroundings that this temporary campus would entail. We decided that

this would not be a good placement for Matt next year, due to the huge

changes, noise level in the portables, construction traffic around that

school, etc.....

My question is if anyone knows in the wording of IDEA, if this type of

placement decision can be made by the " Team " rather than by a supposedly

arbitrary person. I have a sneaking feeling that I will need to fight to

keep him out of that school for next year, and was wondering if anyone on

here knows of a way to do this. I was thinking that if they tried to

change us to the other school, that could be changing " placement " , and I

could block it with a " stay-put " order until a hearing was conducted. I

just need to know what I am getting into.

Any help would be appreciated.

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Wow, this is the kind of situation I am in with Seth. You do seem to have

cut the battle in half, because you said only half of " them " will go. So,

you have a 50-50 chance in your favor already! I imagine the ones that will

stay will be the ones whose parents fight the hardest. After I talked with

TASH, NY advocates and a bunch of others, I found out the only chance I have

with Seth's placement is to remember that *I* am 50% of the IEP team, and

they can't do anything without my approval. You have a better chance because

you can have the *stay-put* order, which I can't get. From what I have

learned about that is though, it can't stay in effect for a very long period

of time. It might be long enough for them to find the numbers they need to

go though. :-) Good, good, good luck to you , and let us know how you

make out?

Gail

<< My question is if anyone knows in the wording of IDEA, if this type of

placement decision can be made by the " Team " rather than by a supposedly

arbitrary person. I have a sneaking feeling that I will need to fight to

keep him out of that school for next year, and was wondering if anyone on

here knows of a way to do this. I was thinking that if they tried to

change us to the other school, that could be changing " placement " , and I

could block it with a " stay-put " order until a hearing was conducted. I

just need to know what I am getting into.

Any help would be appreciated.

>>

[Guest guest]

,

From what I understand, zoning has nothing to do with where a disabled child

attends school. I might be wrong on that, but Seth doesn't go to his home

school. All of his records are kept at his home school, but he attends a

school out of his district. I thought that was pretty clear in one of the

regulations I read, which I though was in IDEA. I thought ANY change in

school class, or changing schools, constitutes *placement*? I don't think

*THEY* have the right to decide anything . Remember you are half of

*they*! LOL , you are really in the same spot that I am, and with you

homeschooling your other kids, you know you could do Matt if you had to. If

you know this new school would not be good for him, fight them as hard as you

can and don't sign his IEP until it's the way you want it. Make sure you

have all the concerns written in the IEP about noise and change not being in

Matt's best interest. I don't know much yet, but I do know that if it's

written in the IEP, it's binding! LOL Not that I have had that much

experience with IEP's, but I am learning. I am fighting. And I am sticking

to my guns until I get what I want for Seth. LOL They can't do ANYTHING

without my approval. I'm ready for my battle next week, and will let you

know how I make out. I am not fighting for the same thing, I am fighting for

them to *create* a new room. Even if Seth is the only one in it! LOL Gosh

, the way Vegas is growing, whose to say they won't want to move him 10

more times before he graduates! Keep us up on how it goes, okay?

Gail

<<

So, do you still think I have cause, if they try to move Matt, to evoke

" stay put " . OR since we are zoned for there, would they be considered one

and the same and we are just S.O.L.

>>

[Guest guest]

...don't take this is as law but it is my understanding that special ed

is a " service " and not a place. As far as I know the " place " is not supposed

to be a IEP decision, the decision needs to be what meets your sons needs.

You may have to do a little homework to prove that, such as a letter from a

doc or psy. saying how upsetting and detramential the new classroom would be

during construction.

As far as stayput.. it is also my understanding that " stayput " happens when

you contest an IEP and is over after " mediation or fair hearing occurs " .

Judy

[Guest guest]

Hi Gail,

Did you ever wonder why kids that have the hardest time transitioning get

moved around more than the teachers! I have a problem with the school

philosophy regarding this topic. The placement must be made for a child not

the child fit into a placement.The schools tend to loose sight of the fact

that special education is a service not a place. The question is where can

the services be delivered in the LRE.It is not in the best interest of a

child to take them out of familiar surroundings and faces.

Charlyne,Pete,Cait LD 20,Zeb DS-? 8

[Guest guest]

,

The District may not make placement decisions based soley on factors such as

the following: category of disability; severity of disability; configuration

of delivery systems; availability of educational or related services;

availability of space; or administrative convenience. [Questions and Answers

on the Least Restrictive Environment Requirements of the IDEA, US Department

of Education, Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services,

OSEP-95-9, 11/23/94, Q & A 8.]

Hope that helps.

Terry

[Guest guest]

,

The law also says, *most appropriate*. The change would not be most

appropriate for Matt if it will interrupt his learning. It also says *fair*.

That is not fair to put him in a place that would be a distraction from his

learning. Of course, knowing these laws and getting them to work to your

advantage is not the same thing! LOL You can request documentation that the

team considered all of Matt's strengths, weaknesses and your concerns. If

you request that in writing, they may be more apt to take all those into

consideration than if they didn't put it in writing for you.

Gail

<< Charlyne,

I agree, but the law does not say what is in the " Best interest of the

child " . Only that he can be educated in the " least restrictive

environment " . Just like it doenst' say that they have to give him the

best education, just an education. >>

[Guest guest]

Gail,

Thanks for the encouragement.

I wrote this late last night, and I dont' think I was clear. I'm not sure

if this even constititutesa placement decision. Or if since the zoning

is for both, if THEY have the right to decide the physical school, but we

decide together the amount of time in the regular classroom and the

amount of time in the resource room. Since both would technically be

considered our home zoned school, can they decide to " get rid of him " .

I know I have even a better than 50-50 chance of staying, as when I

" accidentally " let the new principal know what was said, she was fairly

upset. She insisted, that No, 1/2 of " them " (and she said that was an

inappropriate term) do not have to go. She will have 300 kids the first

year, and Vanderburg will have 850. You dont' divide the 40 or so special

ed kids in 1/2. It is funny, they at this school do everything for the

" good of the school " not the good of any individual child. And they are

proud of that!

So, do you still think I have cause, if they try to move Matt, to evoke

" stay put " . OR since we are zoned for there, would they be considered one

and the same and we are just S.O.L.

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:57:08 EDT smilinggail@... writes:

> Hi ,

> Wow, this is the kind of situation I am in with Seth. You do seem

> to have

> cut the battle in half, because you said only half of " them " will

> go. So,

> you have a 50-50 chance in your favor already! I imagine the ones

> that will

> stay will be the ones whose parents fight the hardest. After I

> talked with

> TASH, NY advocates and a bunch of others, I found out the only

> chance I have

> with Seth's placement is to remember that *I* am 50% of the IEP

> team, and

> they can't do anything without my approval. You have a better

> chance because

> you can have the *stay-put* order, which I can't get. From what I

> have

> learned about that is though, it can't stay in effect for a very

> long period

> of time. It might be long enough for them to find the numbers they

> need to

> go though. :-) Good, good, good luck to you , and let us

> know how you

> make out?

> Gail

>

> << My question is if anyone knows in the wording of IDEA, if this

> type of

> placement decision can be made by the " Team " rather than by a

> supposedly

> arbitrary person. I have a sneaking feeling that I will need to

> fight to

> keep him out of that school for next year, and was wondering if

> anyone on

> here knows of a way to do this. I was thinking that if they tried

> to

> change us to the other school, that could be changing " placement " ,

> and I

> could block it with a " stay-put " order until a hearing was

> conducted. I

> just need to know what I am getting into.

>

> Any help would be appreciated.

>

> >>

>

>

[Guest guest]

...

LMAO! I know exactly what you mean! Glad I could help!

Terry

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I understand what you are trying to say but the law says an appropriate

education. He would probably recieve the same appropriate services at either

school but the most LRE for your son would be his present school.I would stay

with that argument.

Charlyne,Pete,Cait LD 20,Zeb DS-? 8

[Guest guest]

Hi Gail,

The law says an appropriate education so let the school define that. Can your

child go to another school,sit in an unfamiliar room and be able adapt

without having his education disrupted and without regression? That is the

argument and legally it is his LRE.

Charlyne

[Guest guest]

,

The bottom line is that the placement and plan have to be appropriate for the

individual student; therefore they can not " randomly " select students to be

moved to the alternate site. I think Charlyne is right. If you stick with

" appropriate placement for LRE, you will be ok.

Terry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 11:05:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> ,

> From what I understand, zoning has nothing to do with where a disabled

> child

> attends school. I might be wrong on that, but Seth doesn't go to his home

> school.

Philly has what they calls *clusters* (which I would read as zones as well).

We are in the Fels Cluster. I was told that Maddie had to go to a school

in her cluster, UNLESS there were no schools in that cluster that could

support her IEP. For example, the Fels Cluster has no autistic support

classrooms and if that was the classroom her IEP stated she needed to get an

appropriate education, then she'd have to go to the next CLOSEST cluster that

had an autistic support classroom. None of this effected us since we fought

and won APS placement anyway, but just letting you know how it works in my

city .

, I'm curious to know what type of protocol they intend to use in

choosing half the students to go. If they are not basing it on each IEP,

then how do they plan to pick who goes and who stays??

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 11:05:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> . If

> you know this new school would not be good for him, fight them as hard as

> you

> can and don't sign his IEP until it's the way you want it. Make sure you

> have all the concerns written in the IEP about noise and change not being

> in

> Matt's best interest.

Yep. This was absolutely my attitude when we went to our IEP to fight for

private placement. Usually, I would go into meetings recognizing that I'd

have to make certain compromises, as I expected them to. But, with APS, I

KNEW in my soul that she would NOT go to their choice for placement. Over my

dead body I believe, were the words I used to her then teacher. I swore

she'd stay home and be homeschooled by me (NOT a teacher, believe me,,,but

that's how desperate I was) if she didnt' get Melmark (no way could we afford

to pay that ourselves) It was very scary, but it helps to know you're solid

on one thing anyway!!

Good Luck Dear!!!!! PLEASE keep us posted!!!

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 1:00:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

> The law also says, *most appropriate*. The change would not be most

> appropriate for Matt if it will interrupt his learning.

This is key. , I think you need to demonstrate to them WHY Matt can't

move. You'll have to have an answer for everything they throw at you.

Make up a list of scenarios of things you KNOW will happen if Matt is moved;

how it will inhibit his learning AND his IEP. AND why it is inappropriate.

I know with us winning the APS placement, we had to demonstrate what MM

could offer Maddie that they (the SD) could not. AND why it was therefore

the LRE for her.

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 1:56:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

stolzfamily@... writes:

> This is what I think too. I read the passage to my older daughter, as I

> was memorizing it. She pointed out that if they are " randomly " choosing

> those to go to each school, and Matt is " randomly " chosen, we could be

> stuck. But it was already said to me, many times, that 1/2 of the special

> ed students have to go. If a certain percentage of students in a school

> belong to a certain group (such as those in special ed), and a random

> sample is taken for any reason-like moving to a different building, you

> would think, I suppose, that statisically the same percentage of students

> in that random sample will be chosen as belong in the original group. Am

> I making sense?

>

Ok . SOrry, I see you've answered my question in my post. Cept what

the heck does random mean??? Out of a hat or somethign??? Or are they

going to *discuss* each child's situation. I wouldn't like this attitude at

all either . I can understand though that they have a REAL big problem.

Are there any parents who don't care which school?

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 1:32:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

stolzfamily@... writes:

<< Terry,

Thanks, This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I'll print this out,

memorize it, practice saying it nicely, forcefully, quietly, loudly,

maybe even put it to music. It will become my motto!!

Thanks

>>

LOL ! I just wrote that in BIG BOLD letters on my IEP book myself! LOL

Terry????? Any idea how I get to the site to print it out from there?

Thanks

Gail

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 1:57:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

charlyne1121@... writes:

<< Hi Gail,

The law says an appropriate education so let the school define that. Can

your

child go to another school,sit in an unfamiliar room and be able adapt

without having his education disrupted and without regression? That is the

argument and legally it is his LRE.

Charlyne

>>

Charlyne,

LOL Are you kidding? LOL Heck, even my girls couldn't do that! LOL I am

testing my 10 y/o at home this year because she would be totally disrupted by

the noise and action in a school classroom. She would be busy watching

everyone else out of curiosity. They would probably accuse her of cheating

because her eyes would be every where but on her paper! LOL

Gail

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:02:11 EDT charlyne1121@... writes:

.. The question is

> where can

> the services be delivered in the LRE.It is not in the best interest

> of a

> child to take them out of familiar surroundings and faces.

> Charlyne,Pete,Cait LD 20,Zeb DS-? 8

>

>

Charlyne,

I agree, but the law does not say what is in the " Best interest of the

child " . Only that he can be educated in the " least restrictive

environment " . Just like it doenst' say that they have to give him the

best education, just an education.

I believe LRE begins at your neighborhood public school, and continues to

more and more " segregated " places as you move up the continuum. My

problem is that now BOTH schools are legally our " neighborhood public

school " .

I do have the principal of the new school on my side, tho. That should

help.

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[Guest guest]

Terry,

Thanks, This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I'll print this out,

memorize it, practice saying it nicely, forcefully, quietly, loudly,

maybe even put it to music. It will become my motto!!

Thanks

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:45:50 EDT Imaddenmom@... writes:

> ,

> The District may not make placement decisions based soley on factors

> such as

> the following: category of disability; severity of disability;

> configuration

> of delivery systems; availability of educational or related

> services;

> availability of space; or administrative convenience. [Questions

> and Answers

> on the Least Restrictive Environment Requirements of the IDEA, US

> Department

> of Education, Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative

> Services,

> OSEP-95-9, 11/23/94, Q & A 8.]

> Hope that helps.

> Terry

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:41:12 EDT charlyne1121@... writes:

> Hi ,

> I understand what you are trying to say but the law says an

> appropriate

> education. He would probably recieve the same appropriate services

> at either

> school but the most LRE for your son would be his present school.I

> would stay

> with that argument.

> Charlyne,Pete,Cait LD 20,Zeb DS-? 8

This is what I think too. I read the passage to my older daughter, as I

was memorizing it. She pointed out that if they are " randomly " choosing

those to go to each school, and Matt is " randomly " chosen, we could be

stuck. But it was already said to me, many times, that 1/2 of the special

ed students have to go. If a certain percentage of students in a school

belong to a certain group (such as those in special ed), and a random

sample is taken for any reason-like moving to a different building, you

would think, I suppose, that statisically the same percentage of students

in that random sample will be chosen as belong in the original group. Am

I making sense?

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

What is the reason for chosing half of the special ed students to be moved?

Even if he is chosen to move this is still a change of placement even though

it is still in his school district.

Charlyne

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/01 3:39:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

stolzfamily@... writes:

> Almost all of them. The moms coming up are

> perfectly made up, perfect hair, perfect clothes (ironed, no doubt),

> perfect everything on the surface. This is all important. Test scores

> for this school are the highest in the district. Just ask the principal.

> this makes her look good, in her Jaguar, with her perfect clothes, hair

> and makeup.

EW!! Perfect everything, cept for what's probably going on inside their

houses. *Pretty* people like that tend to be hiding ugly secrets. Ugh!!

We know this couple who care solely about what they and their children

look like. How big their house is, or how expensive the furniture is

inside. How important the vacation house is; How the wife looks perfectly

coiffed (can you say trophy??). From the outside, many envy them. Cept I

know what goes on inside. A total mess!! Bad marriage, Bad parenting,

Bad financial saga, all around Bad secrets. I have no patience or time

for superficial people. So sorry you don't have better options !!!!

{{{{hugs}}}} Let us know any news when you hear!!

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/2001 3:38:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

stolzfamily@... writes:

> . Just ask the principal.

> this makes her look good, in her Jaguar, with her perfect clothes, hair

> and makeup. I am not at all like this, I hope. And I dont' want to be.

Hi ,

Maybe you should come to my school district. I usually drive Zeb to school

with the pajama top on and put a hat on for the scary hairdo. I would make

you look really good.Oh, and not to mention the pickup truck. I don't know of

any school that is balanced,just stupid.Do they have the same amount

white,black,hispanic etc?

Charlyne