Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Dear scd I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing extensive research. This takes time and commitment. It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would be the best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves, which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and emotional accounts. We certainly can assist you in your research . Here are some excellent resources: www.safeminds.org, www.generationrescue.org, www.nationalautismassociation.org www.autismone.org www.achamp.org www.nomercury.org www.unlockingautism.org , some studies funded by CAN, www.cureautismnow.org google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their conferences, google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America; google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. O’Hara, Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. Ayoub, Dr. Geier, Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill, Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the conference lists of DAN , USAAA, and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research by Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr, among others Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but these things are on the above website; you must search and research You should also research conflict of interest within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving among other entities, pharmaceuticals, You have your work cur out for you, but as you are serious about uncovering the truth, you will welcome the work, The evidence will speak for itself Suzanne Messina REAACH From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of scd7131 Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM EOHarm Subject: Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability. I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact. Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Suzanne - Thank you for your thoughtful response, and thank you also for taking the time to compile the various resources and links. I appreciate also the words of encouragement. I have done what I consider to be extensive research (through many of the provided links) - it has been two years since my son was diagnosed, and I have been digging into this issue ever since (you all are very familiar with the all-consuming need to " know " that your approach is the best one for your child). Also, my college education was in neurophysiology (though I did not pursue that as a career), which provided a solid base of knowledge as a starting point - particularly in statistical analysis and what constitutes valid research results. In my studies I have found a large body of what I would consider circumstantial evidence that there may be a link between vaccinations and autism - but I have also found an equally large body of statistically sound research that would indicate that there is no link. In my current view, the information would indicate not that there is no link, but that no link has been proven. I have a very open mind on this topic, though, and am trying to gain some additional perspective. Epidemiological evidence seems to be the strongest in support of the link, but it is the weakest form of research (although the only choice in many cases), and in no way proves causation. I try to minimize the value in my own judgment process of epidemiological evidence, regardless of which way it points us. It does occur to me that, if there is a link finally proven between autism and vaccinations, the cause may actually be auto-immune response as opposed to toxicity. My son, for example, has had two episodes of shingles, which are a result of his immune system mis- handling (for lack of a better term) the chicken pox vaccine. So it would seem that his auto-immune response is atypical at least in that case. He does not have any of the " gut " issues that I have read and heard so much about, and the lack of that has caused my wife and I to adhere to behavioral modification therapy (ABA, speech, OT, (therapeutic horsemanship). He has improved in many ways. If I were to list the areas of improvement, it would sound a lot like the success stories I read from parents whose children have benefitted from such treatments as GFCF diet, chelation, etc. I still am considering some of the other, biomedical treatments, but am a little nervous about playing with his body chemistry. One last point: We have another son due in January. We have decided to vaccinate him, but we will administer the shots singularly. Instead of doing the MMR, we will do M, then M, then R. Same with DPT. Exercising some caution seems appropriate, but we certainly do not want him to contract any of these diseases. Thanks again for your thoughtful response, and I look forward to hearing from more members of the group on these topics. Steve > > Dear scd > > > > I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing extensive > research. This takes time and commitment. > > It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would be the > best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves, > > which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and emotional > accounts. > > > > We certainly can assist you in your research . > > Here are some excellent resources: > > > > www.safeminds.org <http://www.safeminds.org/> , > www.generationrescue.org <http://www.generationrescue.org/> , > www.nationalautismassociation.org > <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/> www.autismone.org > <http://www.autismone.org/> > > www.achamp.org <http://www.achamp.org/> www.nomercury.org > <http://www.nomercury.org/> www.unlockingautism.org > <http://www.unlockingautism.org/> , some studies funded by CAN, > www.cureautismnow.org <http://www.cureautismnow.org/> > > > > google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and > google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their conferences, > > > > google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America; > > > > google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. > O'Hara, > > Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. > Ayoub, Dr. Geier, > > Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill, > Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others > > whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the conference > lists of DAN , USAAA, > > and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research by > Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr, among others > > > > Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but these > things are on the above website; you must search and research > > > > You should also research conflict of interest > within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving > > among other entities, pharmaceuticals, > > > > You have your work cur out for you, but as you are > serious about uncovering the truth, > > you will welcome the work, > > > > > The evidence will speak for itself > Suzanne Messina REAACH > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of > scd7131 > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM > EOHarm > Subject: Not understanding > > > > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for > my son's disability. > I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment > options stems from this fact. > Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of > the other? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 To add to Suzanne's comments - you might find it helpful to begin at F.A.I.R. Autism Media. There you'll find video interviews with many of the parents, researchers and doctors Suzanne mentioned (and more). http://www.autismmedia.org/ Suzanne's right -- it will take time, but it's time well spent. > Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. O'Hara, Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. Ayoub, Dr. Geier, Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Thank you, . I'll check that out. Steve > > > Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. O'Hara, > Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. Ayoub, Dr. Geier, > Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 A few suggestions I have for you so you will gain more knowledge to decide whether or not your son regressed into autism from vaccines that contained mercury. 1. You have already read Evidence of Harm 2. Go to the website www.generationrescue.org 3. Go to the website www.autismresearchinstitute.com You may want to watch the recovered kids videos. Also look up the list of DAN (Defeat Autism Now) doctors and make an appt with one for your child. A doctor may help determine the cause of your sons autism. You can do a challenge test to determine if your child has excessive amounts of metals including mercury 4. Join some of the where parents are actively chelating (removing the toxins ) their children and seeing gains in language, social, awareness and overall health. (chelatingkids2 and autismmercury are two such groups). Best wishes to you and your family! --- scd7131 <steve.dionne@...> wrote: > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son > is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to > expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of > treatments for > my son's disability. > I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I > am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism > is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by > thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented > compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that > numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the > link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am > trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have > arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice > of treatment > options stems from this fact. > Please understand that I am not trying to cause an > argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this > issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special > information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is > right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. > So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the > debate instead of > the other? > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Thank you . I appreciate your helpful response. Steve > > > Hi all - > > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son > > is 5 and is > > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to > > expand my > > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of > > treatments for > > my son's disability. > > I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I > > am perceiving to > > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism > > is caused by > > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by > > thimerosal in > > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented > > compelling > > evidence that this is the case. I also know that > > numerous studies > > have been published that have failed to show the > > link between > > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am > > trying to understand > > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have > > arrived at the > > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice > > of treatment > > options stems from this fact. > > Please understand that I am not trying to cause an > > argument or to > > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this > > issue - I certainly > > do not know what causes autism and have no special > > information which > > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is > > right or wrong. It > > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. > > So what, then, > > is causing this group to fall on one side of the > > debate instead of > > the other? > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Steve asks: "So I guess my 2 questions from that concern would be - a)does this group feel that the debate is closed, and that the issue has been settled? and does this group agree that not vaccinating children can have equally damaging results as vaccinating? Question B is not worded very well, but I hope you catch my meaning." Having just a high school diploma, I would not presume to speak for this highly educated "group", but, in my own opinion, I do not believe the "debate" you speak of has happened? My grandson "regressed" about four years ago and I am still wating for that public "debate" to occur? In fact, there is nothing more this "joe six pack grandpa" wants, after four years, than to "have the issue settled". Unfortunately, those that have both the opportunity and resources to "settle the issue" refuse to engage in "open public debate". Preferrably in a joint House/Sentate Hearing, under oath. The fact the CDC does not demand such a "public forum" to present their scientific evidence is clear evidence, to me, they are not confident their "evidence" will stand public scrutiny. Instead, they prefer to expend their energies promoting "widely publicized studies" proclaiming my grandson's autism may have been caused by "older men having children" or "too much television watching". So, the answer to question "A" is "No, the debate is not closed and the issue has not been settled." ---------------------- --------------------------- ----------------------------- I agree that question "B" is not "worded very well". The question asked is usually phrased: "Do the benefits outweigh the risks"? Well, as Socrates demanded of his students, that would require the person asking the question to "define" what he means by "benefits" and "risks"? Such as:: Do the "benefits" of having our children avoid measles, mumps and rubella outweigh the possible "risk" of having them suffer life-long debilating conditions like autism, juvenile diabetes and rhumatoid arthritis. Unfortunately, parents cannot answer the question. Only public health agencies responsible for regulating, recommending and approving childhood vaccines can provide the scientific evidence proving beyond any reasonable doubt their universal childhood vaccines have not contributed to the inexplicable rise in these life-long afflictions. Until/unless they provide such scientific evidence, the "issue" will remain unresolved. Welcome to EOH and I truly appreciate your inquiries. It is from challenging my own beliefs that I reaffirm my convictions. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Because of a number of things-- The "studies" presented by the other side are flawed almost to the point of being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years have watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations between autism and thimerosal conveniently disappeared. The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury poisoning. After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of the same story over and over and over again. Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes them away. Pretty basic stuff. Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, "Of course, they ate lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you chelate the stuff out, the symptoms go away." Duh! However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two items that have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and financial, we have to protect the status quo. I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until everything that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury. Mercury was the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for answers. I did NOT want this to be true! Barb Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Steve, I think everyone gave you great links and information to follow. Personally I had questions right from the beginning because my son clearly regressed following these vaccinations. However, I found that breaking down the questions from the no connection side and looking at the opposing position of a possible connection, was the most helpful. Like the still present question from Scientists that Ethyl mercury’s molecules are too large to cross the Blood brain barrier and how the Burbacher study proves that Ethyl mercury does cross the BBB. I also could never find a good answer from mainstream as to why so many boys. Boyd Haley’s study on the synergistic effects of testosterone and mercury together, and their destruction of cells, as well as the protective effect of estrogen on the cells. In breaking all of the questions down I think the evidence is MUCH higher stacked on the mercury/autism connection. The new video posted on Dr. Nataf’s study of children with Autism and the statistical significant rates of mercury burden is telling of the fact that they have too much mercury from somewhere. The viral aspect is most certainly another aspect to look at. The Methyl B-12/Valtrex sight talks a lot about the viral overloads of our children. There is most certainly a link to genetic susceptibility that you really should look further into when having another child to think about. I had a 3 rd child after my son had regressed and there were many questions of vaccines and how to do it safely. I refused Hep B, waited 6 months, and began to do one at a time and by the 3rd my daughter developed swallowing issues and food intolerances. I will no longer ever feel guilty about not vaccinating again. I so wanted to have my kids protected because of the fear but because of the reactions of all of my children suffered and the information I have sought out on the dangers I will no longer take the unnecessary risks of vaccinations for my children. What am I trying to do instead? Build their immunity with supplementation, food avoidance, ect. Whether to or not is a personal choice and should be well researched and in that research should include your family history, viral exposures, heavy metal exposures and autoimmune issues. Good luck to you and your son. - From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of scd7131 Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:49 PM EOHarm Subject: :RE: Re: Not understanding This is a very well-presented argument for adopting this vaccination schedule. Thanks for the link. Steve > > http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/user_friendly.pdf > > > Best article I have read on vaccinating your kids. > > JB > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Thanks for the great insight, . I appreciate it. -----Original Message-----From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ]On Behalf Of Chap 'n AliSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:42 PMEOHarm Subject: RE: Re: Not understanding Steve, I think everyone gave you great links and information to follow. Personally I had questions right from the beginning because my son clearly regressed following these vaccinations. However, I found that breaking down the questions from the no connection side and looking at the opposing position of a possible connection, was the most helpful. Like the still present question from Scientists that Ethyl mercury’s molecules are too large to cross the Blood brain barrier and how the Burbacher study proves that Ethyl mercury does cross the BBB. I also could never find a good answer from mainstream as to why so many boys. Boyd Haley’s study on the synergistic effects of testosterone and mercury together, and their destruction of cells, as well as the protective effect of estrogen on the cells. In breaking all of the questions down I think the evidence is MUCH higher stacked on the mercury/autism connection. The new video posted on Dr. Nataf’s study of children with Autism and the statistical significant rates of mercury burden is telling of the fact that they have too much mercury from somewhere. The viral aspect is most certainly another aspect to look at. The Methyl B-12/Valtrex sight talks a lot about the viral overloads of our children. There is most certainly a link to genetic susceptibility that you really should look further into when having another child to think about. I had a 3 rd child after my son had regressed and there were many questions of vaccines and how to do it safely. I refused Hep B, waited 6 months, and began to do one at a time and by the 3rd my daughter developed swallowing issues and food intolerances. I will no longer ever feel guilty about not vaccinating again. I so wanted to have my kids protected because of the fear but because of the reactions of all of my children suffered and the information I have sought out on the dangers I will no longer take the unnecessary risks of vaccinations for my children. What am I trying to do instead? Build their immunity with supplementation, food avoidance, ect. Whether to or not is a personal choice and should be well researched and in that research should include your family history, viral exposures, heavy metal exposures and autoimmune issues. Good luck to you and your son. - From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of scd7131Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:49 PMEOHarm Subject: :RE: Re: Not understanding This is a very well-presented argument for adopting this vaccination schedule. Thanks for the link.Steve>> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/user_friendly.pdf> > > Best article I have read on vaccinating your kids.> > JB> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Thanks for the response, Barb (I know my thanks are getting repetitive, but I do want to offer appreciation to everyone who has chosen to answer my questions). Your response includes certain issues which are principle reasons for my skepticism mercury being a causal agent. First, the similarities between mercury poisoning and autism symptoms. This is one of the first things I looked at when I began to explore this issue, and I found that exactly the opposite is true - there is very little similarity between mercury poisoning symptoms and autism symptoms. It seems to me that there are a few crossover symptoms, but not very many. I have, in my own mind, chalked this up to one being a medical diagnosis and one being a diagnosis of a psychological disorder, and that the psychiatric disorder does not "demand" a look at other co-existing physical symptoms, which are therefore left off the list of symptoms of autism. I am sure many of you have thought this through more carefully - can anyone help me to understand that aspect? Secondly, your claim that the "studies" presented by the other side are tremendously flawed gives me pause. That is precisely what the members of the other side of the debate are claiming. I see flawed studies and some good studies in support of both sides, so I tend to throw out that argument until more information comes to light that can be deemed reliable. Not that all studies should be ignored, its just that this seems to me to be more of an emotionally-driven response than a reliable argument in favor of one position or another. I also am seeing in your response the claim that "mercury out takes them (the symptoms) away." This is obviously the case with some kids, but just as obviously not the case with others. Is there consideration of the possibility that some but not all autism is caused by toxicity? Variable chelation results would seem to argue in favor of this position. The last thing you mentioned is the "huge invesments" behind the vaccine and filling people. Well, the opposing argument would be that the Doctors and other medical practitioners who are prescribing some of the biomedical therapies I have been studying also have financial gain at stake. Perhaps on a smaller scale, but I actually think it is easier for an individual or small group of individuals to perpetrate a fraud than it is for a combination of huge corporations and governmental agencies to perpetrate a fraud. When you think of the number of variables that would prevent huge oprganizations like those from keeping "secrets", it is almost beyond the realm of imagining that such a grand-scale crime could be intentionally committed. Additionally, trial lawyers stand to gain tremendously from findings that would indicate that vaccine manufacturers are responsible for knowingly damaging many thousands of children. In my estimation, it would be the single largest financial "win" in the history of the world's legal system. And trial lawyers are notoriously aggressive about throwing money into research that will support their positions. So the argument of "taint" or "bias" works against both sides of the debate equally and favors neither. I am sorry for my long-winded monologue here, its just that your response to my inquiry has really touched on the "magic buttons" that result in my still-present skepticism. Let me reiterate that I do have an open mind on this, and I welcome anyone to respond to some of the issues I am bringing up. I know these are probably unwelcome topics that have been rehashed within this group over the past 18 months or so, but I would welcome any efforts to dispel my skepticism. Again, I am not here to argue, as I would never attempt to foist my opinions on any member of this group. I am appreciative of being able to participate in the discussion, and respect the responses I have received regardless of whether I accept them or not. Steve -----Original Message-----From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ]On Behalf Of jromkemaSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:22 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Not understanding Because of a number of things-- The "studies" presented by the other side are flawed almost to the point of being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years have watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations between autism and thimerosal conveniently disappeared. The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury poisoning. After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of the same story over and over and over again. Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes them away. Pretty basic stuff. Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, "Of course, they ate lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you chelate the stuff out, the symptoms go away." Duh! However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two items that have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and financial, we have to protect the status quo. I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until everything that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury. Mercury was the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for answers. I did NOT want this to be true! Barb Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Steve, I would like to recommend that you do more research and ask more questions. From your statement that you will be administering the DPT separately, I can tell that you are not as well versed in the vaccine information as you need to be in order to make a totally informed decision. There is no separate shot for "P", Pertussis. There are separate shots for "T" Tetanus and "DT" Diptheria/Tetanus. Pertussis is only available in combination with the other two. The separate Tetanus shot still contains thimerosal, the preservative which is 50% mercury. there is no Thimerosal free choice. Have you visited www.safeminds.org or www.909shots.com? Have you read "Autism: A Unique form of Mercury poisoning" and read the book for which this list is named. If you really look at the information presented in the websites and the book, you will realize that there are many, many reasons to err on the side of caution and defer vaccination for your infant. Get familiar with the incidence rates of the diseases in question to understand that the risk has now flipped and it is now riskier to get the vaccination than it is to catch the disease. I strongly urge you to do more research before you make your final decision, there is just too much at stake. I will tell you that my position is that I will never give my son another vaccine, nor will I ever get another vaccine for the rest of my life. When the smallpox and anthrax issues were emerging, I was positive that I would take the risk and not give or receive those vaccines. I am a Director of Accounting in the NYC area, I own my own home and have a retirement fund. I am not out there on the fringe. Good luck, Heidi From: "scd7131" <steve.dionne@...>Reply-EOHarm To: EOHarm Subject: Re: Not understandingDate: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:07:30 -0000 Suzanne - Thank you for your thoughtful response, and thank you also for taking the time to compile the various resources and links. I appreciate also the words of encouragement.I have done what I consider to be extensive research (through many of the provided links) - it has been two years since my son was diagnosed, and I have been digging into this issue ever since (you all are very familiar with the all-consuming need to "know" that your approach is the best one for your child). Also, my college education was in neurophysiology (though I did not pursue that as a career), which provided a solid base of knowledge as a starting point - particularly in statistical analysis and what constitutes valid research results.In my studies I have found a large body of what I would consider circumstantial evidence that there may be a link between vaccinations and autism - but I have also found an equally large body of statistically sound research that would indicate that there is no link. In my current view, the information would indicate not that there is no link, but that no link has been proven. I have a very open mind on this topic, though, and am trying to gain some additional perspective.Epidemiological evidence seems to be the strongest in support of the link, but it is the weakest form of research (although the only choice in many cases), and in no way proves causation. I try to minimize the value in my own judgment process of epidemiological evidence, regardless of which way it points us. It does occur to me that, if there is a link finally proven between autism and vaccinations, the cause may actually be auto-immune response as opposed to toxicity. My son, for example, has had two episodes of shingles, which are a result of his immune system mis-handling (for lack of a better term) the chicken pox vaccine. So it would seem that his auto-immune response is atypical at least in that case. He does not have any of the "gut" issues that I have read and heard so much about, and the lack of that has caused my wife and I to adhere to behavioral modification therapy (ABA, speech, OT, (therapeutic horsemanship). He has improved in many ways. If I were to list the areas of improvement, it would sound a lot like the success stories I read from parents whose children have benefitted from such treatments as GFCF diet, chelation, etc. I still am considering some of the other, biomedical treatments, but am a little nervous about playing with his body chemistry.One last point: We have another son due in January. We have decided to vaccinate him, but we will administer the shots singularly. Instead of doing the MMR, we will do M, then M, then R. Same with DPT. Exercising some caution seems appropriate, but we certainly do not want him to contract any of these diseases.Thanks again for your thoughtful response, and I look forward to hearing from more members of the group on these topics.Steve >> Dear scd > > > > I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing extensive> research. This takes time and commitment. > > It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would be the> best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves,> > which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and emotional> accounts. > > > > We certainly can assist you in your research .> > Here are some excellent resources:> > > > www.safeminds.org <http://www.safeminds.org/> ,> www.generationrescue.org <http://www.generationrescue.org/> ,> www.nationalautismassociation.org> <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/> www.autismone.org> <http://www.autismone.org/> > > www.achamp.org <http://www.achamp.org/> www.nomercury.org> <http://www.nomercury.org/> www.unlockingautism.org> <http://www.unlockingautism.org/> , some studies funded by CAN,> www.cureautismnow.org <http://www.cureautismnow.org/> > > > > google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and> google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their conferences,> > > > google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America;> > > > google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. > O'Hara,> > Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. > Ayoub, Dr. Geier,> > Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill,> Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others> > whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the conference> lists of DAN , USAAA,> > and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research by > Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr, among others > > > > Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but these> things are on the above website; you must search and research> > > > You should also research conflict of interest> within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving > > among other entities, pharmaceuticals, > > > > You have your work cur out for you, but as you are> serious about uncovering the truth, > > you will welcome the work,> > > > > The evidence will speak for itself> Suzanne Messina REAACH> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of> scd7131> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM> EOHarm > Subject: Not understanding> > > > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for > my son's disability.> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment > options stems from this fact.> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of > the other?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Steve, I would like to recommend that you do more research and ask more questions. From your statement that you will be administering the DPT separately, I can tell that you are not as well versed in the vaccine information as you need to be in order to make a totally informed decision. There is no separate shot for "P", Pertussis. There are separate shots for "T" Tetanus and "DT" Diptheria/Tetanus. Pertussis is only available in combination with the other two. The separate Tetanus shot still contains thimerosal, the preservative which is 50% mercury. there is no Thimerosal free choice. Have you visited www.safeminds.org or www.909shots.com? Have you read "Autism: A Unique form of Mercury poisoning" and read the book for which this list is named. If you really look at the information presented in the websites and the book, you will realize that there are many, many reasons to err on the side of caution and defer vaccination for your infant. Get familiar with the incidence rates of the diseases in question to understand that the risk has now flipped and it is now riskier to get the vaccination than it is to catch the disease. I strongly urge you to do more research before you make your final decision, there is just too much at stake. I will tell you that my position is that I will never give my son another vaccine, nor will I ever get another vaccine for the rest of my life. When the smallpox and anthrax issues were emerging, I was positive that I would take the risk and not give or receive those vaccines. I am a Director of Accounting in the NYC area, I own my own home and have a retirement fund. I am not out there on the fringe. Good luck, Heidi From: "scd7131" <steve.dionne@...>Reply-EOHarm To: EOHarm Subject: Re: Not understandingDate: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:07:30 -0000 Suzanne - Thank you for your thoughtful response, and thank you also for taking the time to compile the various resources and links. I appreciate also the words of encouragement.I have done what I consider to be extensive research (through many of the provided links) - it has been two years since my son was diagnosed, and I have been digging into this issue ever since (you all are very familiar with the all-consuming need to "know" that your approach is the best one for your child). Also, my college education was in neurophysiology (though I did not pursue that as a career), which provided a solid base of knowledge as a starting point - particularly in statistical analysis and what constitutes valid research results.In my studies I have found a large body of what I would consider circumstantial evidence that there may be a link between vaccinations and autism - but I have also found an equally large body of statistically sound research that would indicate that there is no link. In my current view, the information would indicate not that there is no link, but that no link has been proven. I have a very open mind on this topic, though, and am trying to gain some additional perspective.Epidemiological evidence seems to be the strongest in support of the link, but it is the weakest form of research (although the only choice in many cases), and in no way proves causation. I try to minimize the value in my own judgment process of epidemiological evidence, regardless of which way it points us. It does occur to me that, if there is a link finally proven between autism and vaccinations, the cause may actually be auto-immune response as opposed to toxicity. My son, for example, has had two episodes of shingles, which are a result of his immune system mis-handling (for lack of a better term) the chicken pox vaccine. So it would seem that his auto-immune response is atypical at least in that case. He does not have any of the "gut" issues that I have read and heard so much about, and the lack of that has caused my wife and I to adhere to behavioral modification therapy (ABA, speech, OT, (therapeutic horsemanship). He has improved in many ways. If I were to list the areas of improvement, it would sound a lot like the success stories I read from parents whose children have benefitted from such treatments as GFCF diet, chelation, etc. I still am considering some of the other, biomedical treatments, but am a little nervous about playing with his body chemistry.One last point: We have another son due in January. We have decided to vaccinate him, but we will administer the shots singularly. Instead of doing the MMR, we will do M, then M, then R. Same with DPT. Exercising some caution seems appropriate, but we certainly do not want him to contract any of these diseases.Thanks again for your thoughtful response, and I look forward to hearing from more members of the group on these topics.Steve >> Dear scd > > > > I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing extensive> research. This takes time and commitment. > > It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would be the> best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves,> > which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and emotional> accounts. > > > > We certainly can assist you in your research .> > Here are some excellent resources:> > > > www.safeminds.org <http://www.safeminds.org/> ,> www.generationrescue.org <http://www.generationrescue.org/> ,> www.nationalautismassociation.org> <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/> www.autismone.org> <http://www.autismone.org/> > > www.achamp.org <http://www.achamp.org/> www.nomercury.org> <http://www.nomercury.org/> www.unlockingautism.org> <http://www.unlockingautism.org/> , some studies funded by CAN,> www.cureautismnow.org <http://www.cureautismnow.org/> > > > > google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and> google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their conferences,> > > > google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America;> > > > google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. > O'Hara,> > Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. > Ayoub, Dr. Geier,> > Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill,> Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others> > whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the conference> lists of DAN , USAAA,> > and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research by > Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr, among others > > > > Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but these> things are on the above website; you must search and research> > > > You should also research conflict of interest> within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving > > among other entities, pharmaceuticals, > > > > You have your work cur out for you, but as you are> serious about uncovering the truth, > > you will welcome the work,> > > > > The evidence will speak for itself> Suzanne Messina REAACH> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of> scd7131> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM> EOHarm > Subject: Not understanding> > > > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for > my son's disability.> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment > options stems from this fact.> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of > the other?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 You are still are not citing specific studies that you say are leading you to your beliefs. What studies,. Steve? Suzanne From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Steve Dionne Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:18 PM EOHarm Subject: RE: Not understanding Thanks for the response, Barb (I know my thanks are getting repetitive, but I do want to offer appreciation to everyone who has chosen to answer my questions). Your response includes certain issues which are principle reasons for my skepticism mercury being a causal agent. First, the similarities between mercury poisoning and autism symptoms. This is one of the first things I looked at when I began to explore this issue, and I found that exactly the opposite is true - there is very little similarity between mercury poisoning symptoms and autism symptoms. It seems to me that there are a few crossover symptoms, but not very many. I have, in my own mind, chalked this up to one being a medical diagnosis and one being a diagnosis of a psychological disorder, and that the psychiatric disorder does not " demand " a look at other co-existing physical symptoms, which are therefore left off the list of symptoms of autism. I am sure many of you have thought this through more carefully - can anyone help me to understand that aspect? Secondly, your claim that the " studies " presented by the other side are tremendously flawed gives me pause. That is precisely what the members of the other side of the debate are claiming. I see flawed studies and some good studies in support of both sides, so I tend to throw out that argument until more information comes to light that can be deemed reliable. Not that all studies should be ignored, its just that this seems to me to be more of an emotionally-driven response than a reliable argument in favor of one position or another. I also am seeing in your response the claim that " mercury out takes them (the symptoms) away. " This is obviously the case with some kids, but just as obviously not the case with others. Is there consideration of the possibility that some but not all autism is caused by toxicity? Variable chelation results would seem to argue in favor of this position. The last thing you mentioned is the " huge invesments " behind the vaccine and filling people. Well, the opposing argument would be that the Doctors and other medical practitioners who are prescribing some of the biomedical therapies I have been studying also have financial gain at stake. Perhaps on a smaller scale, but I actually think it is easier for an individual or small group of individuals to perpetrate a fraud than it is for a combination of huge corporations and governmental agencies to perpetrate a fraud. When you think of the number of variables that would prevent huge oprganizations like those from keeping " secrets " , it is almost beyond the realm of imagining that such a grand-scale crime could be intentionally committed. Additionally, trial lawyers stand to gain tremendously from findings that would indicate that vaccine manufacturers are responsible for knowingly damaging many thousands of children. In my estimation, it would be the single largest financial " win " in the history of the world's legal system. And trial lawyers are notoriously aggressive about throwing money into research that will support their positions. So the argument of " taint " or " bias " works against both sides of the debate equally and favors neither. I am sorry for my long-winded monologue here, its just that your response to my inquiry has really touched on the " magic buttons " that result in my still-present skepticism. Let me reiterate that I do have an open mind on this, and I welcome anyone to respond to some of the issues I am bringing up. I know these are probably unwelcome topics that have been rehashed within this group over the past 18 months or so, but I would welcome any efforts to dispel my skepticism. Again, I am not here to argue, as I would never attempt to foist my opinions on any member of this group. I am appreciative of being able to participate in the discussion, and respect the responses I have received regardless of whether I accept them or not. Steve Re: Not understanding Because of a number of things-- The " studies " presented by the other side are flawed almost to the point of being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years have watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations between autism and thimerosal conveniently disappeared. The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury poisoning. After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of the same story over and over and over again. Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes them away. Pretty basic stuff. Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, " Of course, they ate lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you chelate the stuff out, the symptoms go away. " Duh! However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two items that have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and financial, we have to protect the status quo. I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until everything that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury. Mercury was the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for answers. I did NOT want this to be true! Barb Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability. I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact. Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Sir - I also sincerely hope for a public debate and ensuing exposure of the facts. I remain unconvinced that the facts will support the Autism/MMR link, but I certainly believe that it is possible. I am no expert on this, just a struggling parent. Additionally, I pay no heed (other than cursory evaluation) of these other research results you mentioned. I do not feel they are valid, and as I stated in an earlier post, I am not a big believer in the effectiveness of epidemiological studies as beacons for causation. They can provide some " markers " which later research can focus on, but cannot produce cause/effect results such as " TV Watching Causes Autism " . This type of study is just a good example of a grand- standing pseudo-researcher playing up to a sensationalistic media. Thanks, Steve > > Steve asks: > > " So I guess my 2 questions > from that concern would be - a)does this group feel that the debate > is closed, and that the issue has been settled? and does this > group agree that not vaccinating children can have equally damaging > results as vaccinating? Question B is not worded very well, but I > hope you catch my meaning. " > > Having just a high school diploma, I would not presume to speak for this > highly educated " group " , but, in my own opinion, I do not believe the " debate " > you speak of has happened? My grandson " regressed " about four years ago and I > am still wating for that public " debate " to occur? In fact, there is > nothing more this " joe six pack grandpa " wants, after four years, than to " have the > issue settled " . > > Unfortunately, those that have both the opportunity and resources to " settle > the issue " refuse to engage in " open public debate " . Preferrably in a joint > House/Sentate Hearing, under oath. The fact the CDC does not demand such a > " public forum " to present their scientific evidence is clear evidence, to > me, they are not confident their " evidence " will stand public scrutiny. > > Instead, they prefer to expend their energies promoting " widely publicized > studies " proclaiming my grandson's autism may have been caused by " older men > having children " or " too much television watching " . > > So, the answer to question " A " is " No, the debate is not closed and the > issue has not been settled. " > ---------------------- ------------------------ --- > ----------------------------- > > I agree that question " B " is not " worded very well " . The question asked is > usually phrased: " Do the benefits outweigh the risks " ? Well, as Socrates > demanded of his students, that would require the person asking the question to > " define " what he means by " benefits " and " risks " ? > > Such as:: Do the " benefits " of having our children avoid measles, mumps and > rubella outweigh the possible " risk " of having them suffer life- long > debilating conditions like autism, juvenile diabetes and rhumatoid arthritis. > > Unfortunately, parents cannot answer the question. Only public health > agencies responsible for regulating, recommending and approving childhood vaccines > can provide the scientific evidence proving beyond any reasonable doubt > their universal childhood vaccines have not contributed to the inexplicable rise > in these life-long afflictions. Until/unless they provide such scientific > evidence, the " issue " will remain unresolved. > > Welcome to EOH and I truly appreciate your inquiries. It is from > challenging my own beliefs that I reaffirm my convictions. Thanks. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Steve, Whether our job is to convince you or not may be up for debate. I personally have a strange feeling you are not here to find out any truths, a little too adamant about repeating over and over that you are just a parent looking for the truth. But that is just my gut feeling, I could be totally wrong. You appear to want to play the devils advocate, and seem pretty adamant about your positions already. If I am wrong then... This is a journey you must make and you will decide what you will from the available information. Just as in a court of law you have to decide who is more believable also, who has what to gain. You seem to think that DAN doctors have as much to gain as big pharma in presenting 'Their side' but it is DAN doctors who have stuck their necks out, been investigated, ridiculed, risked their very jobs and reputations to help our kids. It's not exactly an even match. If you want to investigate MMR/Autism you really need to read the research done by Dr. Yazbak. A huge number of us fit his research, that us moms have our own immune system problems, never develop titers to MMR so are given it over and over and over and over, inlcuding after every birth (you wouldn't want to risk rubella if you want to have another child) then our children get their own MMR and wham they are instantly autistic. Whether this is the MMR alone or after mega doses of thimerisol that set them up is still debatable. A friend of mine got vaccinated with many vaccines in nursing school while she was pregnant but before she knew she was pregnant and Dr. Yazbak told her the odds were not good. And, they were not, her child has been diagnosed with Autism. The epidemiological studies belong to the other side. All the science showing the devastating toxicity of thimerisol as a vaccine additive are not epidemiological. There are links below. We know that the original Verstraeten study showed a correlation between thimerisol and autism greater than the connection between smoking and lung disease. We also know that the generational changes were so obvious that it was intended to lessen the numbers and the impact. Adding in 1 to 3 years olds, knowing there would not be diagnosis on these kids yet, for the most part. Then in another generation adding in the 17,000 kids that had originally been excluded because they were born with a birth defect. That is why their epidemiological studies are so bad. For me it's never been hard to understand or know the truth. My child collapsed after her vaccines and was autistic from that point forward. It was not " around " the same time, nor " just coincidental " but a direct and immediate result, no questions asked, and no one has ever denied that my daughters autism was caused by the vaccines. Why is it such a huge leap that it happens a day later or 48 hours later or even two weeks later? They know that vaccines CAN cause Autism, they just refuse to admit that it does in most cases. What is your explanation or reasoning with yourself when our children test toxic for mercury? How do you reason with children that recover with biomedical treatment of their immune system problems, gut issues, chelation, and other treatments. The numbers are growing and growing. I have a recoverd child and presented at the DAN conference this month in Seattle. We went from severely autistic to 100% mainstreamed and independent. I know the truth. Also the entire issue doesn't have to be some complex conspiracy theory with millions involved. It is simply business as usual, use bogus science to claim effectiveness and safety, tell the lie often enough until everyone believes it, even those working to invent more and better drugs and vaccines, and always deny and refute anything that would affect your profit margin. I am sure many in the business really do believe they are doing what's best for children. It doesn't take planning or collusion it is a way of life, big pharma educates and gifts young doctors while in training and even later so they are never going to question the status quo, plus vaccines are for some their bread and butter. It is very complex, and you will either find the truth or you will not. If you have read Evidence of Harm you know it is the best circumstancial case ever put together. They knew, they didn't care and damaged our kids anyway. Others can say the jury is out, but I know better. Over five years of research, I have learned more than I ever wanted to about the entire vaccine belief system, and natural disease, lifelong immunity and the flawed belief of how disease is and is not caused as well as its purpose. Perhaps the journey must be made on your own and then join up with those of like minds. I haven't heard any new arguments from the other side for a long long time now, just the same old lies and denials from those that seem to have the media in their pocket. Hope you find your answers. If you have an autistic child the sooner you act the better the potential outcome. It is a very difficult journey though, and I know it is not for everyone. Kendra Links below...happy reading As we added more and more vaccines with unconscionable levels of mercury, the autism rate exploded. The CDC calls this a coincidence and has the easily manipulated population studies to prove it. They don't however, have a single toxicological study done on the mercury used in vaccines that shows it's safe to inject into children. They don't even have records of the testing done on the mercury-based vaccine preservative, thimerosal, before it was put into use. That's because there was none. This is the real story of mercury use in vaccines that never gets covered by the press: Thimerosal goes back 75 years. It was invented and tested Eli Lilly Pharmaceutical Company in 1930. The one study done on thimerosal was done by Eli Lilly on 22 adult patients suffering from meningitis. There was no chance for follow-up to observe long-term effects, as all of the patients died. Even if follow-up had been possible, damage to the developing brains of very young children would have remained an unknown. Eli Lilly said it was safe and the medical community just accepted it. After the creation of the FDA, its use was simply continued. This is an unconscionable oversight failure and calls any safety claim into question. In his book, Evidence of Harm, journalist Kirby points out that " ...many researchers had sent the company [Eli Lilly] documents dating back to the 1930's, each raising a red flag about thimerosal. " (EOH 207-209). Mr. Kirby chronologically lists over 70 years of scientific research on the damaging and deadly effects of thimerosal that was willfully ignored by Eli Lilly and the CDC.http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Our CDC and FDA should be utterly embarrassed to make safety claims based on such a pathetic history of oversight. While the CDC says they haven't seen anything linking mercury in vaccines to autism, there are volumes of research findings on the deadly effects of thimerosal. Do a search for Dr. Boyd Haley, University of Kentucky; Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr. Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier, President of The Genetic Centers of America and Geier, Vice President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill , University of Arkansas. They are just a handful of the well- credentialed scientists whose work links thimerosal to neurological damage in our children. Research on the effects of thimerosal can also be found on this link: http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html' The vast majority of the flu vaccine still contains mercury. This vaccine is recommended for children from six months to five years old and for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. A child (up to age three) receives a pediatric vaccine with 12.5 mcg of mercury, an amount that can only be safely processed by someone weighing 275 pounds according to the EPA. A month later they get another 12.5 booster. A pregnant woman receives the adult vaccine with 25 mcg of mercury, meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. This mercury easily passes the placental barrier and enters the fetus whose brain is just developing. New Jersey physician, Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, in Old Tappan, NJ wrote that he's tried to get mercury-free flu vaccines for his patients without success. Most doctors aren't concerned with the high mercury content since the CDC has shown no preference. Dr. Rosen's email: <ldrdoc@...> One in every 166 children now has a diagnosis of autism. Twenty years ago, it was one in 10,000. Furthermore, one in every six schoolchildren now has some type of learning problem like attention deficit. That's an epidemic increase, yet little is said about all the autism now overwhelming our school by the Centers for Disease Control. This is the agency that is supposed to be the watchdog of the country's health, but they're more concerned about a possible bird flu pandemic than an epidemic of autism among our children. Eighty percent of autistic Americans are under the age of eighteen. Can you possibility imagine the day when one in every 166 eighteen year olds is going disability FOR LIFE WITH AUTISM? By 2010, we'll see the beginning of the huge aging out of the mercury generation. The words of Bono of the National Autism Association should be sounding an alarm. She recently said, " As those children reach adulthood, the U.S. is ill-equipped to care for them. Not only do we not have enough services for adults now, the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. ly, we don't know what we're going to do. " Bono's email: <ldbono@...> There are so many people who have the credentials to speak as experts on this subject. Some have been featured on news reports. Boyd E. Haley, PhD <behaley@...>; Leading international expert and author on mercury toxicity. Kirby <dkirby@...>; http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Journalist, author of Evidence of Harm Dan Olmsted, <dolmsted@...>; UPI editor and author of The Age of Autism <http://www.theageofautism.com/> Ken Stoller, MD <hbotnm@...>; Pediatrician, Santa Fe, NM works on recovering children from autism ED YAZBAK Ayoub, MD <raypoke@...> Radiologist, Springfield, IL helped passed IL bill to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines in IL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Suzanne, Here is a very good example of the type of study I am referring to that refutes evidence of any link between autism and either MMR or thimerosal. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139#R42 This study was done outside the U.S., and had nothing to do with CDC. It was done in Canada, where universal health care allows for much more accurate collection of data due to uniformity of methodology (as opposed to the widely-cited California studies which relied upon data collected haphazardly at the school district level). The study distinguishes between MMR and thimerosal. It specifically addresses the Geier studies, as well as EOH and the Kennedy article in Rolling Stone magazine. I fail to see any inherent bias in the study, or any reason to believe that the author is attempting to perpetrate a lie or prolong a fraud upon the world's population to benefit a few drug-manufacturing executives. This study represents, to me, the type of information that any open- minded person would have to consider in determining their position on this issue. I am not going so far as to say this study is perfect or totally accurate. I do not buy it " hook, line, and sinker " . I feel strongly that much, much more research needs to be done. I desperately want to know what causes autism to occur. At the same time, I feel no need whatsoever to blame anyone for my son's condition. I also remain hesitant to introduce any treatments which could, in the long term, prove to be harmful in ways I cannot presently anticipate. Having said that, I respect and admire the responses I have received on this message board. I hope many of you will apply a critical eye to this study, as you have done with others, and help me to learn more about this issue. I have learned a lot today, which is what I set out to do, and you all are responsible for that. I am really pleased with the graciousness with which my " devil's advocate " position has been met. Steve > > You are still are not citing specific studies that you say are leading you > to your beliefs. What studies,. Steve? Suzanne > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of > Steve Dionne > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:18 PM > EOHarm > Subject: RE: Not understanding > > > > Thanks for the response, Barb (I know my thanks are getting repetitive, but > I do want to offer appreciation to everyone who has chosen to answer my > questions). > > > > Your response includes certain issues which are principle reasons for my > skepticism mercury being a causal agent. > > First, the similarities between mercury poisoning and autism symptoms. This > is one of the first things I looked at when I began to explore this issue, > and I found that exactly the opposite is true - there is very little > similarity between mercury poisoning symptoms and autism symptoms. It seems > to me that there are a few crossover symptoms, but not very many. I have, > in my own mind, chalked this up to one being a medical diagnosis and one > being a diagnosis of a psychological disorder, and that the psychiatric > disorder does not " demand " a look at other co-existing physical symptoms, > which are therefore left off the list of symptoms of autism. I am sure many > of you have thought this through more carefully - can anyone help me to > understand that aspect? > > Secondly, your claim that the " studies " presented by the other side are > tremendously flawed gives me pause. That is precisely what the members of > the other side of the debate are claiming. I see flawed studies and some > good studies in support of both sides, so I tend to throw out that argument > until more information comes to light that can be deemed reliable. Not that > all studies should be ignored, its just that this seems to me to be more of > an emotionally-driven response than a reliable argument in favor of one > position or another. > > I also am seeing in your response the claim that " mercury out takes them > (the symptoms) away. " This is obviously the case with some kids, but just > as obviously not the case with others. Is there consideration of the > possibility that some but not all autism is caused by toxicity? Variable > chelation results would seem to argue in favor of this position. > > The last thing you mentioned is the " huge invesments " behind the vaccine and > filling people. Well, the opposing argument would be that the Doctors and > other medical practitioners who are prescribing some of the biomedical > therapies I have been studying also have financial gain at stake. Perhaps > on a smaller scale, but I actually think it is easier for an individual or > small group of individuals to perpetrate a fraud than it is for a > combination of huge corporations and governmental agencies to perpetrate a > fraud. When you think of the number of variables that would prevent huge > oprganizations like those from keeping " secrets " , it is almost beyond the > realm of imagining that such a grand-scale crime could be intentionally > committed. Additionally, trial lawyers stand to gain tremendously from > findings that would indicate that vaccine manufacturers are responsible for > knowingly damaging many thousands of children. In my estimation, it would > be the single largest financial " win " in the history of the world's legal > system. And trial lawyers are notoriously aggressive about throwing money > into research that will support their positions. So the argument of " taint " > or " bias " works against both sides of the debate equally and favors neither. > > > I am sorry for my long-winded monologue here, its just that your response to > my inquiry has really touched on the " magic buttons " that result in my > still-present skepticism. Let me reiterate that I do have an open mind on > this, and I welcome anyone to respond to some of the issues I am bringing > up. I know these are probably unwelcome topics that have been rehashed > within this group over the past 18 months or so, but I would welcome any > efforts to dispel my skepticism. Again, I am not here to argue, as I would > never attempt to foist my opinions on any member of this group. I am > appreciative of being able to participate in the discussion, and respect the > responses I have received regardless of whether I accept them or not. > > Steve > > > > > > Re: Not understanding > > Because of a number of things-- > > > > The " studies " presented by the other side are flawed almost to the point of > being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years have > watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations between autism > and thimerosal conveniently disappeared. > > > > The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury poisoning. > After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of the same > story over and over and over again. > > > > Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes them away. > Pretty basic stuff. > > > > Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't be > having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, " Of course, they ate > lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you chelate the > stuff out, the symptoms go away. " Duh! > > > > However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two items that > have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and financial, > we have to protect the status quo. > > > > I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until everything > that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury. Mercury was > the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for answers. > I did NOT want this to be true! > > > > Barb > > Not understanding > > > > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for > my son's disability. > I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment > options stems from this fact. > Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of > the other? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 If it's not the thimerosal, then why do the CDC and the politicians avoid doing a real study of American children who got a typical dose of thimerosal during the Nineties? Why was the CDC study presented at Simpsonwood that showed a link between vaccination and autism rates marked " Confidential " ? If you can read the minutes of the Simpsonwood meeting and not smell a rat, then you have more faith in your fellow man than I. Why wasn't a study of unvaccinated children done? I can't prove the thimerosal made my son autistic, but until they stop avoiding the issue, it certainly looks suspicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Kendra - I am not quite sure how to respond to your post. If I do not ask the questions, how am I supposed to arrive at the answers? Yours is the first response I have received that vaguely resembles an accusation of misrepresentation. I regret that my wording, tone, or some other aspect of my inquries has caused you to doubt my intentions that I am trying to gather information that will allow me to make sound decisions for not only my 5 year old son who is autistic, but also the son who is due in January. If I am violating an established tenet of this discussion group by asking questions about what led you to the belief that autism results from vaccination, please tell me directly. I have no wish to offend anyone in this group, and would rather fade away than start an argument. I will not concede yet on the fact that I retain doubts on the link between autism and MMR or mercury toxicity. It would be dishonest of me to do so. What better way for me to learn than to attempt to discuss my doubts with a group who has obviously studied this issue at great depth? I have not assigned anyone the " job " of informing me, I have just earnestly asked questions - specific questions, the answers to which I am trying to get to. Anyhow, apologies are offered, and I hope I have not ruffled any feathers. Steve > > Steve, > Whether our job is to convince you or not may be up for debate. I > personally have a strange feeling you are not here to find out any > truths, a little too adamant about repeating over and over that you > are just a parent looking for the truth. But that is just my gut > feeling, I could be totally wrong. You appear to want to play the > devils advocate, and seem pretty adamant about your positions > already. If I am wrong then... > This is a journey you must make and you will decide what you will > from the available information. Just as in a court of law you have > to decide who is more believable also, who has what to gain. You > seem to think that DAN doctors have as much to gain as big pharma in > presenting 'Their side' but it is DAN doctors who have stuck their > necks out, been investigated, ridiculed, risked their very jobs and > reputations to help our kids. It's not exactly an even match. > If you want to investigate MMR/Autism you really need to read the > research done by Dr. Yazbak. A huge number of us fit his research, > that us moms have our own immune system problems, never develop > titers to MMR so are given it over and over and over and over, > inlcuding after every birth (you wouldn't want to risk rubella if > you want to have another child) then our children get their own MMR > and wham they are instantly autistic. Whether this is the MMR alone > or after mega doses of thimerisol that set them up is still > debatable. A friend of mine got vaccinated with many vaccines in > nursing school while she was pregnant but before she knew she was > pregnant and Dr. Yazbak told her the odds were not good. And, they > were not, her child has been diagnosed with Autism. > The epidemiological studies belong to the other side. All the > science showing the devastating toxicity of thimerisol as a vaccine > additive are not epidemiological. There are links below. > We know that the original Verstraeten study showed a correlation > between thimerisol and autism greater than the connection between > smoking and lung disease. We also know that the generational > changes were so obvious that it was intended to lessen the numbers > and the impact. Adding in 1 to 3 years olds, knowing there would > not be diagnosis on these kids yet, for the most part. Then in > another generation adding in the 17,000 kids that had originally > been excluded because they were born with a birth defect. That is > why their epidemiological studies are so bad. > For me it's never been hard to understand or know the truth. My > child collapsed after her vaccines and was autistic from that point > forward. It was not " around " the same time, nor " just coincidental " > but a direct and immediate result, no questions asked, and no one > has ever denied that my daughters autism was caused by the vaccines. > Why is it such a huge leap that it happens a day later or 48 hours > later or even two weeks later? They know that vaccines CAN cause > Autism, they just refuse to admit that it does in most cases. > What is your explanation or reasoning with yourself when our > children test toxic for mercury? How do you reason with children > that recover with biomedical treatment of their immune system > problems, gut issues, chelation, and other treatments. The numbers > are growing and growing. I have a recoverd child and presented at > the DAN conference this month in Seattle. We went from severely > autistic to 100% mainstreamed and independent. I know the truth. > > Also the entire issue doesn't have to be some complex conspiracy > theory with millions involved. It is simply business as usual, use > bogus science to claim effectiveness and safety, tell the lie often > enough until everyone believes it, even those working to invent more > and better drugs and vaccines, and always deny and refute anything > that would affect your profit margin. I am sure many in the > business really do believe they are doing what's best for children. > It doesn't take planning or collusion it is a way of life, big > pharma educates and gifts young doctors while in training and even > later so they are never going to question the status quo, plus > vaccines are for some their bread and butter. It is very complex, > and you will either find the truth or you will not. > If you have read Evidence of Harm you know it is the best > circumstancial case ever put together. They knew, they didn't care > and damaged our kids anyway. Others can say the jury is out, but I > know better. Over five years of research, I have learned more than > I ever wanted to about the entire vaccine belief system, and natural > disease, lifelong immunity and the flawed belief of how disease is > and is not caused as well as its purpose. > Perhaps the journey must be made on your own and then join up with > those of like minds. I haven't heard any new arguments from the > other side for a long long time now, just the same old lies and > denials from those that seem to have the media in their pocket. > Hope you find your answers. If you have an autistic child the > sooner you act the better the potential outcome. It is a very > difficult journey though, and I know it is not for everyone. > Kendra > Links below...happy reading > > As we added more and more vaccines with unconscionable levels of > mercury, the autism rate exploded. > > The CDC calls this a coincidence and has the easily manipulated > population studies to prove it. They don't however, have a single > toxicological study done on the mercury used in vaccines that shows > it's safe to inject into children. They don't even have records of > the testing done on the mercury-based vaccine preservative, > thimerosal, before it was put into use. That's because there was > none. > > This is the real story of mercury use in vaccines that never gets > covered by the press: > > Thimerosal goes back 75 years. It was invented and tested Eli Lilly > Pharmaceutical Company in 1930. The one study done on thimerosal > was done by Eli Lilly on 22 adult patients suffering from > meningitis. There was no chance for follow-up to observe long-term > effects, as all of the patients died. Even if follow-up had been > possible, damage to the developing brains of very young children > would have remained an unknown. Eli Lilly said it was safe and the > medical community just accepted it. After the creation of the FDA, > its use was simply continued. This is an unconscionable oversight > failure and calls any safety claim into question. > > In his book, Evidence of Harm, journalist Kirby points out > that " ...many researchers had sent the company [Eli Lilly] documents > dating back to the 1930's, each raising a red flag about > thimerosal. " (EOH 207-209). Mr. Kirby chronologically lists over > 70 years of scientific research on the damaging and deadly effects > of thimerosal that was willfully ignored by Eli Lilly and the > CDC.http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Our CDC and FDA should be > utterly embarrassed to make safety claims based on such a pathetic > history of oversight. > > While the CDC says they haven't seen anything linking mercury in > vaccines to autism, there are volumes of research findings on the > deadly effects of thimerosal. Do a search for Dr. Boyd Haley, > University of Kentucky; Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr. > Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier, > President of The Genetic Centers of America and Geier, Vice > President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill , > University of Arkansas. They are just a handful of the well- > credentialed scientists whose work links thimerosal to neurological > damage in our children. > > Research on the effects of thimerosal can also be found on this link: > > http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html' > > The vast majority of the flu vaccine still contains mercury. This > vaccine is recommended for children from six months to five years > old and for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. A child (up > to age three) receives a pediatric vaccine with 12.5 mcg of mercury, > an amount that can only be safely processed by someone weighing 275 > pounds according to the EPA. A month later they get another 12.5 > booster. A pregnant woman receives the adult vaccine with 25 mcg of > mercury, meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. This mercury easily > passes the placental barrier and enters the fetus whose brain is > just developing. > > New Jersey physician, Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, in Old Tappan, NJ wrote > that he's tried to get mercury-free flu vaccines for his patients > without success. Most doctors aren't concerned with the high > mercury content since the CDC has shown no preference. > > Dr. Rosen's email: <ldrdoc@...> > > One in every 166 children now has a diagnosis of autism. Twenty > years ago, it was one in 10,000. Furthermore, one in every six > schoolchildren now has some type of learning problem like attention > deficit. That's an epidemic increase, yet little is said about all > the autism now overwhelming our school by the Centers for Disease > Control. This is the agency that is supposed to be the watchdog of > the country's health, but they're more concerned about a possible > bird flu pandemic than an epidemic of autism among our children. > > Eighty percent of autistic Americans are under the age of eighteen. > Can you possibility imagine the day when one in every 166 eighteen > year olds is going disability FOR LIFE WITH AUTISM? By 2010, we'll > see the beginning of the huge aging out of the mercury generation. > > The words of Bono of the National Autism Association should be > sounding an alarm. She recently said, > " As those children reach adulthood, the U.S. is ill-equipped to care > for them. Not only do we not have enough services for adults now, > the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. ly, we don't > know what we're going to do. " > > Bono's email: <ldbono@...> > > > There are so many people who have the credentials to speak as > experts on this subject. Some have been featured on news reports. > > Boyd E. Haley, PhD <behaley@...>; > Leading international expert and author on mercury toxicity. > > Kirby <dkirby@...>; > http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ > Journalist, author of Evidence of Harm > > Dan Olmsted, <dolmsted@...>; > UPI editor and author of > The Age of Autism <http://www.theageofautism.com/> > > Ken Stoller, MD <hbotnm@...>; > Pediatrician, Santa Fe, NM > works on recovering children from autism > ED YAZBAK > > Ayoub, MD <raypoke@...> > Radiologist, Springfield, IL > helped passed IL bill to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines in > IL. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Because symptoms start within 24 hou rafter getting a vaccine. hhf Re: Not understanding Kendra - I am not quite sure how to respond to your post. If I do not ask the questions, how am I supposed to arrive at the answers? Yours is the first response I have received that vaguely resembles an accusation of misrepresentation. I regret that my wording, tone, or some other aspect of my inquries has caused you to doubt my Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 and Website nitrf.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Fund EOHarm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 That is my biggest problem with people quoting studies. I believe that when a study is quoted, one must site where the study came from. I am still learning, I've only been at this for two years. I hear so many people tell me about studies and can't give me where they got it from. That is one of the things I liked about the EOH book. Kirby sited where the study came from so one may follow up on it or look at it themselves. Just my two cents from a newby . Vivian Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Wow, Steve, I seriously don't know how you can look at the paper put together by Bernard et al and make that statement!!! I also don't know how you can read Evidence (did you read it?) and say that the studies on the other side weren't flawed. The problems with those studies are spelled out clearly! Excuse me if I'm emotional about this, but I watched the guys do it!!!!! Also, I've been on this list for six years--SIX YEARS--and listened to the same story in several variations--my child got this amount of mercury and within two months this is what happened to him. Okay, now I've heard about chelating and the mercury is pouring out of my child and this and this and this symptom are disappearing. Okay, as more heavy metals emerge and I kill the viruses also put in by the vaccines, my child moves from severe autism to moderate autism to mild autism to ADD to almost NT. Yes, some of us have the tough nuts--my son was 20 when we started--but he tells me about all the things that are now gone that mercury causes. My take after hearing the life stories of literally hundreds or maybe thousands of kids is that "autism" is poisoning by toxic metals, primarily mercury, with a viral component thrown in for a lot of kids. The same thing would not be happening to all these kids if they were not experiencing the same causative agent and then removing that agent! Also, their test results show mercury being excreted up the wazoo. Their tests for their effects of mercury on the body also show the markers of mercury poisoning. Yet they act "autistic" and stop acting "autistic" as the mercury is removed. Nothing does this as well, not ABA therapy, not anything else. I've researched this disability for twenty years and nothing has fit together like this. Barb Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Dear Steve, I have a question for you. Do you believe mercury to be toxic to the human body? If you believe mercury to be toxic (the EPA says no level is safe ), then why, according to the medical establishment, is the only place it is safe is when it is injected directly into the human body or implanted in teeth? At all other times, it is one of the most toxic substances known to mankind. More questions to ask yourself... Why don't the CDC and FDA do a scientific study today, in modern times with modern labs, on the effects of mercury in the body, rather than relying on studies 50 years ago on terminally ill patients or epidemilogical studies that can be easily manipulated? While my 8 year old son does not have an autism diagnosis yet (we are starting evaluations and I expect to get at least an ADD or possibly aspergers dx) he has too many health problems to list that all involve the immune system. I have autoimmune disease as well as others in both mine and my husbands family. I also know now, fron Kirby's book ( and earlier genetic testing to discover the cause of premature ovarian failure - an autoimmune disease), that I have a mutation on the MTHFR gene that interferes with antioxident production and detoxification. Also, there are now scientific links to vaccines and juvenile diabetes. Why is it so hard for our government to make the leap to vaccines may disrupt the immune system and cause other immune related diseases, such as hypothyroidism, allergies, asthma, etc.....?? These are the questions I have asked myself. I will err on the side of caution ( ie NO VACCINES) until the CDC and FDA can produce scientific evidence that they are safe FOR EVERYONE. My family will no longer be those who are disposable for the greater good of herd immunity. These are my thoughts and are from a parent who reads on this subject voraciously. Good luck in your search for answers for your child. It is a long and winding road. Sincerely > > > > Steve, > > Whether our job is to convince you or not may be up for debate. I > > personally have a strange feeling you are not here to find out any > > truths, a little too adamant about repeating over and over that > you > > are just a parent looking for the truth. But that is just my gut > > feeling, I could be totally wrong. You appear to want to play the > > devils advocate, and seem pretty adamant about your positions > > already. If I am wrong then... > > This is a journey you must make and you will decide what you will > > from the available information. Just as in a court of law you > have > > to decide who is more believable also, who has what to gain. You > > seem to think that DAN doctors have as much to gain as big pharma > in > > presenting 'Their side' but it is DAN doctors who have stuck their > > necks out, been investigated, ridiculed, risked their very jobs > and > > reputations to help our kids. It's not exactly an even match. > > If you want to investigate MMR/Autism you really need to read the > > research done by Dr. Yazbak. A huge number of us fit his > research, > > that us moms have our own immune system problems, never develop > > titers to MMR so are given it over and over and over and over, > > inlcuding after every birth (you wouldn't want to risk rubella if > > you want to have another child) then our children get their own > MMR > > and wham they are instantly autistic. Whether this is the MMR > alone > > or after mega doses of thimerisol that set them up is still > > debatable. A friend of mine got vaccinated with many vaccines in > > nursing school while she was pregnant but before she knew she was > > pregnant and Dr. Yazbak told her the odds were not good. And, > they > > were not, her child has been diagnosed with Autism. > > The epidemiological studies belong to the other side. All the > > science showing the devastating toxicity of thimerisol as a > vaccine > > additive are not epidemiological. There are links below. > > We know that the original Verstraeten study showed a correlation > > between thimerisol and autism greater than the connection between > > smoking and lung disease. We also know that the generational > > changes were so obvious that it was intended to lessen the numbers > > and the impact. Adding in 1 to 3 years olds, knowing there would > > not be diagnosis on these kids yet, for the most part. Then in > > another generation adding in the 17,000 kids that had originally > > been excluded because they were born with a birth defect. That is > > why their epidemiological studies are so bad. > > For me it's never been hard to understand or know the truth. My > > child collapsed after her vaccines and was autistic from that > point > > forward. It was not " around " the same time, nor " just > coincidental " > > but a direct and immediate result, no questions asked, and no one > > has ever denied that my daughters autism was caused by the > vaccines. > > Why is it such a huge leap that it happens a day later or 48 hours > > later or even two weeks later? They know that vaccines CAN cause > > Autism, they just refuse to admit that it does in most cases. > > What is your explanation or reasoning with yourself when our > > children test toxic for mercury? How do you reason with children > > that recover with biomedical treatment of their immune system > > problems, gut issues, chelation, and other treatments. The > numbers > > are growing and growing. I have a recoverd child and presented at > > the DAN conference this month in Seattle. We went from severely > > autistic to 100% mainstreamed and independent. I know the truth. > > > > Also the entire issue doesn't have to be some complex conspiracy > > theory with millions involved. It is simply business as usual, > use > > bogus science to claim effectiveness and safety, tell the lie > often > > enough until everyone believes it, even those working to invent > more > > and better drugs and vaccines, and always deny and refute anything > > that would affect your profit margin. I am sure many in the > > business really do believe they are doing what's best for > children. > > It doesn't take planning or collusion it is a way of life, big > > pharma educates and gifts young doctors while in training and even > > later so they are never going to question the status quo, plus > > vaccines are for some their bread and butter. It is very complex, > > and you will either find the truth or you will not. > > If you have read Evidence of Harm you know it is the best > > circumstancial case ever put together. They knew, they didn't > care > > and damaged our kids anyway. Others can say the jury is out, but > I > > know better. Over five years of research, I have learned more > than > > I ever wanted to about the entire vaccine belief system, and > natural > > disease, lifelong immunity and the flawed belief of how disease is > > and is not caused as well as its purpose. > > Perhaps the journey must be made on your own and then join up with > > those of like minds. I haven't heard any new arguments from the > > other side for a long long time now, just the same old lies and > > denials from those that seem to have the media in their pocket. > > Hope you find your answers. If you have an autistic child the > > sooner you act the better the potential outcome. It is a very > > difficult journey though, and I know it is not for everyone. > > Kendra > > Links below...happy reading > > > > As we added more and more vaccines with unconscionable levels of > > mercury, the autism rate exploded. > > > > The CDC calls this a coincidence and has the easily manipulated > > population studies to prove it. They don't however, have a single > > toxicological study done on the mercury used in vaccines that > shows > > it's safe to inject into children. They don't even have records > of > > the testing done on the mercury-based vaccine preservative, > > thimerosal, before it was put into use. That's because there was > > none. > > > > This is the real story of mercury use in vaccines that never gets > > covered by the press: > > > > Thimerosal goes back 75 years. It was invented and tested Eli > Lilly > > Pharmaceutical Company in 1930. The one study done on thimerosal > > was done by Eli Lilly on 22 adult patients suffering from > > meningitis. There was no chance for follow-up to observe long- term > > effects, as all of the patients died. Even if follow-up had been > > possible, damage to the developing brains of very young children > > would have remained an unknown. Eli Lilly said it was safe and the > > medical community just accepted it. After the creation of the > FDA, > > its use was simply continued. This is an unconscionable oversight > > failure and calls any safety claim into question. > > > > In his book, Evidence of Harm, journalist Kirby points out > > that " ...many researchers had sent the company [Eli Lilly] > documents > > dating back to the 1930's, each raising a red flag about > > thimerosal. " (EOH 207-209). Mr. Kirby chronologically lists over > > 70 years of scientific research on the damaging and deadly effects > > of thimerosal that was willfully ignored by Eli Lilly and the > > CDC.http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Our CDC and FDA should be > > utterly embarrassed to make safety claims based on such a pathetic > > history of oversight. > > > > While the CDC says they haven't seen anything linking mercury in > > vaccines to autism, there are volumes of research findings on the > > deadly effects of thimerosal. Do a search for Dr. Boyd Haley, > > University of Kentucky; Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr. > > Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier, > > President of The Genetic Centers of America and Geier, Vice > > President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill > , > > University of Arkansas. They are just a handful of the well- > > credentialed scientists whose work links thimerosal to > neurological > > damage in our children. > > > > Research on the effects of thimerosal can also be found on this > link: > > > > http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html' > > > > The vast majority of the flu vaccine still contains mercury. > This > > vaccine is recommended for children from six months to five years > > old and for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. A child > (up > > to age three) receives a pediatric vaccine with 12.5 mcg of > mercury, > > an amount that can only be safely processed by someone weighing > 275 > > pounds according to the EPA. A month later they get another 12.5 > > booster. A pregnant woman receives the adult vaccine with 25 mcg > of > > mercury, meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. This mercury > easily > > passes the placental barrier and enters the fetus whose brain is > > just developing. > > > > New Jersey physician, Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, in Old Tappan, NJ > wrote > > that he's tried to get mercury-free flu vaccines for his patients > > without success. Most doctors aren't concerned with the high > > mercury content since the CDC has shown no preference. > > > > Dr. Rosen's email: <ldrdoc@> > > > > One in every 166 children now has a diagnosis of autism. Twenty > > years ago, it was one in 10,000. Furthermore, one in every six > > schoolchildren now has some type of learning problem like > attention > > deficit. That's an epidemic increase, yet little is said about > all > > the autism now overwhelming our school by the Centers for Disease > > Control. This is the agency that is supposed to be the watchdog > of > > the country's health, but they're more concerned about a possible > > bird flu pandemic than an epidemic of autism among our children. > > > > Eighty percent of autistic Americans are under the age of > eighteen. > > Can you possibility imagine the day when one in every 166 eighteen > > year olds is going disability FOR LIFE WITH AUTISM? By 2010, > we'll > > see the beginning of the huge aging out of the mercury generation. > > > > The words of Bono of the National Autism Association should > be > > sounding an alarm. She recently said, > > " As those children reach adulthood, the U.S. is ill-equipped to > care > > for them. Not only do we not have enough services for adults now, > > the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. ly, we don't > > know what we're going to do. " > > > > Bono's email: <ldbono@> > > > > > > There are so many people who have the credentials to speak as > > experts on this subject. Some have been featured on news > reports. > > > > Boyd E. Haley, PhD <behaley@>; > > Leading international expert and author on mercury toxicity. > > > > Kirby <dkirby@>; > > http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ > > Journalist, author of Evidence of Harm > > > > Dan Olmsted, <dolmsted@>; > > UPI editor and author of > > The Age of Autism <http://www.theageofautism.com/> > > > > Ken Stoller, MD <hbotnm@>; > > Pediatrician, Santa Fe, NM > > works on recovering children from autism > > ED YAZBAK > > > > Ayoub, MD <raypoke@> > > Radiologist, Springfield, IL > > helped passed IL bill to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines > in > > IL. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 This is my experience. My 13 year old NT daughter, with severe allergies and asthma and my almost 5 year old ASD son were both vaccinated. Both had problems within two days of their vaccines (using CDC schedule). Both were in the doctor's office with ear infections, high fevers, screaming the night of the vaccines, projectile vomiting, etc. within two days of vaccines. I blindly trusted the doctors. My daughter had her first asthma attack when she was only two years old. My ASD son received his MMR at 12 mos, along with other vaccines, and the next day, he had a little bigger than a golf ball size lump on his lymph nodes (sp) in his groin area, plus a high fever. Doctor said, "don't worry about it." Within three days, he stopped talking (he had a four word vocabulary), stopped making eye contact and stop being playful with his little friends. Not to mentioned he looked like he was stoned all the time (looking through you, tired looking, etc.). I have an eight month old beautiful son that isn't vaccinated and he is the picture of perfect health. The only doctor visits he has had is for well baby check ups without vaccines. Not one ear infection, fever, screaming, etc. I have read about both sides. This group and the studies showing a link between vaccines and Autism could be totally wrong (which hasn't been proven to be totally wrong), however, I'm not willing to risk my baby's life with a, "vaccines might be safe" assumption. I am not anti-vaccine because some of the vaccines have a good purpose. I'm anti-CDC schedule. I will follow the following schedule from Dr. Hicks, whom has an autistic son and orders the vaccines separate and preservative free. His schedule is on his website: http://www.pathwaysmed.com/menu/education/education300.html. My ASD son has been doing bio-medical (GFCF diet, TD-DMPS, supplements, etc). He also does OT, Speech, Hippo and 12 hours per week of ABA therapies. Both private and in his public school. All has contributed to my son being able to be mainstreamed next school year (kindergarten). I've done all the tests to make sure that the supplements and the chelation were necessary. And they were. Before bio-med., my son's yeast was through the roof. Anyway, I will not go through this all over again with my baby. I'm not willing to risk his life. And the guilt I have for doing this to my older two children are still lingering. I believe that parents should have all the facts before they vaccinate their children and make an informed decision. Thanks for letting me vent . Vivian Not understanding Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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