Re: Not understanding - summary of findings (One more voice)

[Guest guest]

I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a great

discussion which has caused me to think a lot more about the

issues. I just wanted to mention to Steve that there are some

kids out there who don't seem to have the gut issues as bad as

others. My child is like that and I never could get into the

diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a couple of years

to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue. We also

outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism

community. :-)

However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's in that

I do not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help me

make my decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of

research, not because I don't believe in the science, but I've lost

confidence and trust in so much of the mainstream. (I

struggled to figure out what word to put there after " mainstream " - so

I just left it at that.) What I do believe is that there is a lot

that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have been

listening to other parents, reading, and studying my child and

listening to my inner " gut " feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever

you want to call it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best

I can as a Mom and the person I consider to be solely responsible for

what happens to my child (along with my husband). My son is now

7, and he was diagnosed at age 3. At 6 years of age we began a

homeopathic protocol that has led him very far to what I believe is a

road to recovery. I use homeopathy because I know that it

works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but I have seen

homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with our

pets. (not placebo) Most people who want as much

scientific research as you seem to want, would never consider

homeopathy. I understand that. I am just bringing this out

because it is just another example of the things parents out there are

doing to help their children. We have had great success I might

add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in

Kindergarten last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st

grade. He is also very social and has a very active imagination,

plays with toys appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements

including sensory issues. We never did diets and we did not do

any other therapies except some speech therapy for a while. We

also have not chelated.

Just wanted to share another perspective.

Take care,

~ Karin

p.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something

like small pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about

vaccinations are not only about the additives - I disagree with the

approach to treating disease that way. (too long of a discussion

to write more about here)

Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me to understand what the

tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so

defensive.

It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in information-

gathering and looked into the findings of the other " side " of this

argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be

intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and others'

children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the facts

they choose to favor over others. The common thread was healthy

debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I have

done with you all.

What I have settled on is this. From your " side " of the argument:

no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A

consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues and is

improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the

argument: careful avoidance of negative language when discussing

effects of autism on people's lives - individuals or family members,

an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers about

the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could

inadvertently harm by boy.

I did not realize how deep the division ran between these two camps,

but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation could be

made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally charged

issue, which certainly makes it harder.

Thanks again,

Steve

[Guest guest]

Another example of how every autistic child is different. Three years ago my grandson was at someone else's house and ate a big dish of ice cream-within 3 hours it was like he was on heroin-went two nights without sleeping AT ALL before we had to hospitalize him-5 days in the hospital . For him diet is everything!!!Karin Barasa <kbarasa@...> wrote: I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a great discussion which has caused me to think a lot more about the issues. I

just wanted to mention to Steve that there are some kids out there who don't seem to have the gut issues as bad as others. My child is like that and I never could get into the diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a couple of years to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue. We also outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism community. :-)However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's in that I do not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help me make my decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of research, not because I don't believe in the science, but I've lost confidence and trust in so much of the mainstream. (I struggled to figure out what word to put there after "mainstream" - so I just left it at that.) What I do believe is that there is a lot that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have been listening to other

parents, reading, and studying my child and listening to my inner "gut" feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever you want to call it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best I can as a Mom and the person I consider to be solely responsible for what happens to my child (along with my husband). My son is now 7, and he was diagnosed at age 3. At 6 years of age we began a homeopathic protocol that has led him very far to what I believe is a road to recovery. I use homeopathy because I know that it works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but I have seen homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with our pets. (not placebo) Most people who want as much scientific research as you seem to want, would never consider homeopathy. I understand that. I am just bringing this out because it is just another example of the things parents out there are doing to help their children. We have had

great success I might add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in Kindergarten last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st grade. He is also very social and has a very active imagination, plays with toys appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements including sensory issues. We never did diets and we did not do any other therapies except some speech therapy for a while. We also have not chelated.Just wanted to share another perspective.Take care,~ Karinp.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something like small pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about vaccinations are not only about the additives - I disagree with the approach to treating disease that way. (too long of a discussion to write more about here) Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me

to understand what the tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so defensive.It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in information-gathering and looked into the findings of the other "side" of this argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and others' children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the facts they choose to favor over others. The common thread was healthy debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I have done with you all.What I have settled on is this. From your "side" of the argument: no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues and is improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the argument: careful avoidance of negative language when discussing effects of autism on people's lives

- individuals or family members, an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers about the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could inadvertently harm by boy.I did not realize how deep the division ran between these two camps, but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation could be made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally charged issue, which certainly makes it harder.Thanks again,Steve

Everyone is raving about the all-new .

[Guest guest]

That's great news for your son, Karin. I am really glad things are

improving so well for him.

I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we

started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since

lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but

we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?

And this brings up a great point I have often thought about

regarding treatment and outcome. The big questions is this: Are

signs of improvement always attributable to treatment, or can

improvement also be simply due to the normal process of maturation.

I have talked to so many parents who have claimed that a certain

treatment (pick one: diet, ABA, homeo-, chelation, hbot, etc etc)

resulted in a certain improvement, but when you look at the age of

the child it is easy to see that it is possible the new skill,

behavior, etc could have happened without any type of treatment at

all! This is definitely the case with my son. It was easy to

ascribe his newfound speech to a combination of ABA and SLT, but he

was at the age when a developmentally delayed child could very well

begin to speak without these supports anyway. Interesting topic, I

think.

Steve

>

> I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a great

discussion

> which has caused me to think a lot more about the issues. I just

wanted to

> mention to Steve that there are some kids out there who don't seem

to have

> the gut issues as bad as others. My child is like that and I

never could

> get into the diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a

couple of

> years to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue. We

also

> outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism

community. :-)

>

> However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's in

that I do

> not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help me

make my

> decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of research, not

because I

> don't believe in the science, but I've lost confidence and trust

in so much

> of the mainstream. (I struggled to figure out what word to put

there after

> " mainstream " - so I just left it at that.) What I do believe is

that there

> is a lot that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have been

> listening to other parents, reading, and studying my child and

listening to

> my inner " gut " feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever you want

to call

> it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best I can as a Mom

and the

> person I consider to be solely responsible for what happens to my

child

> (along with my husband). My son is now 7, and he was diagnosed at

age 3.

> At 6 years of age we began a homeopathic protocol that has led him

very far

> to what I believe is a road to recovery. I use homeopathy because

I know

> that it works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but I

have seen

> homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with our

pets.

> (not placebo) Most people who want as much scientific research

as you seem

> to want, would never consider homeopathy. I understand that. I

am just

> bringing this out because it is just another example of the things

parents

> out there are doing to help their children. We have had great

success I

> might add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in

Kindergarten

> last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st grade. He

is also

> very social and has a very active imagination, plays with toys

> appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements including

sensory

> issues. We never did diets and we did not do any other therapies

except

> some speech therapy for a while. We also have not chelated.

>

> Just wanted to share another perspective.

>

> Take care,

> ~ Karin

>

> p.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something

like small

> pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about vaccinations

are not only

> about the additives - I disagree with the approach to treating

disease that

> way. (too long of a discussion to write more about here)

>

>

> Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me to understand what the

> > tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so

> > defensive.

> > It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in

information-

> > gathering and looked into the findings of the other " side " of

this

> > argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be

> > intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and others'

> > children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the facts

> > they choose to favor over others. The common thread was healthy

> > debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I have

> > done with you all.

> > What I have settled on is this. From your " side " of the argument:

> > no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A

> > consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues and

is

> > improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the

> > argument: careful avoidance of negative language when discussing

> > effects of autism on people's lives - individuals or family

members,

> > an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers

about

> > the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could

> > inadvertently harm by boy.

> > I did not realize how deep the division ran between these two

camps,

> > but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation could

be

> > made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally

charged

> > issue, which certainly makes it harder.

> >

> > Thanks again,

> > Steve

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

We chose not to pursue ABA because it just did not seem right to me.

I know that probably sounds like a ridiculous reason, but the idea of

having us or others work with our son for up to 40 hours a week,

pursuing things by rote - it felt like I would be putting my child in

a full time job and he was only 3 years old. I had some contact with

other children who had ABA therapy and/or were in the process of it

and even though there were definite abilities and progress - it was

not what I was looking for for my son. Believe me I questioned myself

a lot because I kept hearing about how it was the only therapy with

scientifc research behind it - proven to produce results, and of

course the constant reminder that the child needs this the earlier the

better and if the child gets too old it will be too late. At the time

behavioral therapies were the only thing I knew of. I strongly

believed that his social skills needed attention first. I did not

feel that ABA would help him in the way I wanted help. He was such a

happy 3 year old and even though he could spend hours in the bathtub

playing with water, or stimmed through the house and was definitely

" in his own little world " he did seem very happy there and I did not

want to disrupt that to force him into our world at that point.

Eventually I took a workshop that taught me a little bit about

something like floortime (although it wasn't floortime/Greenspan) and

that was more my style. We already interacted with him like that and

could get a response from him. So that was more what we did - just

play with him like we would have played with any other child - but

more toward his likes and dislikes - including just imitating his

stimming.

As for progress... he did progress from the ages of 3 to 5 with

maturation and he was in early intervention at our local public

school. He had some words, but very poor pronunciation and no

sentences, absolutely no conversation. He did not play with other

children. And many other typical " autistic traits " . I kept trying to

learn about autism, and any therapy I heard about. When I finally got

to a conference about biomedical interventions, I had a whole new area

to explore. It took me about 6 months of trying to learn about

mercury, toxicity, gut issues, etc. The first thing I tried

hesitantly was some herbal drops that contained " natural chelators "

(chlorella and cilantro). I gave him one drop. The next day he

picked up a play microphone and started singing and pretending he was

performing. We had been watching American Idol for a few weeks and he

was pretending. He had never done anything like this before. It was

so dramatic that everyone in the family sat in disbelief as he put on

this " show " for the whole family (some were visiting from out of

town). He had not even sung a song in the previous 3 years before he

regressed and he had never " pretended " anything nor sought attention

from people, much less a group. It was just too shocking to believe

that it was just a coincidence, although it was incredibly hard to

believe that it could come from one drop of an herbal chelator. I

continued giving it to him for the next few weeks, staying at a low

dose of one drop per day and increasing another drop each week. At 5

drops (5 weeks) he showed some signs of problems with it - detoxing

too fast. I decreased to 4 drops and he was fine but continued to

improve. At that point I was ready to pursue more with chelation and

detoxing. I was looking for a DAN! doctor and wanted to try regular

chelation. I was still nervous about the chelation protocols

(motherly instincts again) and I learned about the type of homeopathy

that we are currently using. At this point he was about to turn 6

years old and was in a self-contained autism classroom at school with

about 30 minutes of inclusion time in a regular classroom. We began

the protocol in the Summer as soon as school got out. I have kept a

detailed diary of his response to the homeopathy. I do not have any

doubt as to what has been leading him in his leaps of progress. Over

the Summer he began playing with other children (that he has known all

his life but never played with), he began pretending, he started

speaking in sentences, he taught himself to swim and many other big

steps forward. It was so fast that we were almost in shock. When he

started school again in the fall, I asked that he be allowed to repeat

Kindergarten and have more inclusion time. Because he was not in any

kind of an ABA program, he was behind academically compared to his

peers and even his autistic peers. I accepted this because I felt he

could always catch up academically in his life and I wanted him to

develop social skills and other skills first. With great reluctance

the school allowed him to be in full inclusion expecting him to fail

and go back to the self-contained classroom. Instead he flourished

and they could not believe that he had made so much progress over the

Summer. He has been in full inclusion ever since. I'm sorry this

story has got to be so long, but I am not very good at writing

short-but-sweet e-mails. :-) He has continued on the homeopathic

protocol for the past 1 1/2 years and with each month when he takes a

new set of remedies, new improvements appear. It is often very

dramatic. Little by little the school has dropped many of his

supports. He no longer has an aide, he does not have adaptive PE

anymore. Many, many other things. I do not believe he would have

progressed at this rate without the homeopathy. I have seen the other

kids he was in class with since he was 3 years old and they have not

had the kind of changes he has had. Some have had ABA and other

therapies, some have had no interventions except for what they get at

school. Yes there is progress even with the children who have no

interventions, so I do think that there would be some progress that

would not be because of treatment. But I have the diary I have kept

since he was diagnosed and all I can offer is my opinion - I do not

have any scientific research to prove it. It's anectdotal. But I

don't care. :-) I would not spend the money if I didn't think it was

helping him and all I care about is helping my son have a happy,

fulfilled life and become a contributor to society.

Again, sorry this got so long.

Best to you!

~ Karin

>

> That's great news for your son, Karin. I am really glad things are

> improving so well for him.

> I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we

> started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since

> lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but

> we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?

>

> And this brings up a great point I have often thought about

> regarding treatment and outcome. The big questions is this: Are

> signs of improvement always attributable to treatment, or can

> improvement also be simply due to the normal process of maturation.

> I have talked to so many parents who have claimed that a certain

> treatment (pick one: diet, ABA, homeo-, chelation, hbot, etc etc)

> resulted in a certain improvement, but when you look at the age of

> the child it is easy to see that it is possible the new skill,

> behavior, etc could have happened without any type of treatment at

> all! This is definitely the case with my son. It was easy to

> ascribe his newfound speech to a combination of ABA and SLT, but he

> was at the age when a developmentally delayed child could very well

> begin to speak without these supports anyway. Interesting topic, I

> think.

> Steve

>

>

[Guest guest]

Be careful with ABA and ABA providers. ABA did everything that the

providers assured us it wouldn't: we had a prompt dependent robotic

child, and an exhausted family where two children were " less than " while

we tried to overfocus on the autism.

RDI has given much balance to the family system and we're unraveling the

prompt dependency and roboticness, too. We're on a much better road

now.

Penny

> I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we

> started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since

> lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but

> we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?

[Guest guest]

ABA usually gets bad press. I'm not sure why. However, my son loves his ABA therapy and does very well with it. Every time he sees his ABA therapist, he jumps up and down with joy and grabs her hand and is ready to work. He goes to a typical preschool in the mornings for three hours, five days a week, where he is the only special needs child. His ABA therapist goes with him and stays the three hours to help him work with his peers and teacher. He is doing so wonderful. He loves school and all his friends and teachers. I always recommend ABA to other parents.

I do some biomed and I feel that he is doing so well because of both therapy and biomed. His gut issues are very obvious so we will stick to biomed. His gut issue is almost non-existent because of biomed.

Again, ABA, in our son's case, is great.

Re: Not understanding - summary of findings (One more voice)

That's great news for your son, Karin. I am really glad things are improving so well for him.I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?And this brings up a great point I have often thought about regarding treatment and outcome. The big questions is this: Are signs of improvement always attributable to treatment, or can improvement also be simply due to the normal process of maturation. I have talked to so many parents who have claimed that a certain treatment (pick one: diet, ABA, homeo-, chelation, hbot, etc etc) resulted in a certain improvement, but when you look at the age of the child it is easy to see that it is possible the new skill, behavior, etc could have happened without any type of treatment at all! This is definitely the case with my son. It was easy to ascribe his newfound speech to a combination of ABA and SLT, but he was at the age when a developmentally delayed child could very well begin to speak without these supports anyway. Interesting topic, I think.Steve>> I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a great discussion> which has caused me to think a lot more about the issues. I just wanted to> mention to Steve that there are some kids out there who don't seem to have> the gut issues as bad as others. My child is like that and I never could> get into the diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a couple of> years to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue. We also> outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism community. :-)> > However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's in that I do> not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help me make my> decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of research, not because I> don't believe in the science, but I've lost confidence and trust in so much> of the mainstream. (I struggled to figure out what word to put there after> "mainstream" - so I just left it at that.) What I do believe is that there> is a lot that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have been> listening to other parents, reading, and studying my child and listening to> my inner "gut" feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever you want to call> it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best I can as a Mom and the> person I consider to be solely responsible for what happens to my child> (along with my husband). My son is now 7, and he was diagnosed at age 3.> At 6 years of age we began a homeopathic protocol that has led him very far> to what I believe is a road to recovery. I use homeopathy because I know> that it works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but I have seen> homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with our pets.> (not placebo) Most people who want as much scientific research as you seem> to want, would never consider homeopathy. I understand that. I am just> bringing this out because it is just another example of the things parents> out there are doing to help their children. We have had great success I> might add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in Kindergarten> last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st grade. He is also> very social and has a very active imagination, plays with toys> appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements including sensory> issues. We never did diets and we did not do any other therapies except> some speech therapy for a while. We also have not chelated.> > Just wanted to share another perspective.> > Take care,> ~ Karin> > p.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something like small> pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about vaccinations are not only> about the additives - I disagree with the approach to treating disease that> way. (too long of a discussion to write more about here)> > > Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me to understand what the> > tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so> > defensive.> > It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in information-> > gathering and looked into the findings of the other "side" of this> > argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be> > intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and others'> > children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the facts> > they choose to favor over others. The common thread was healthy> > debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I have> > done with you all.> > What I have settled on is this. From your "side" of the argument:> > no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A> > consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues and is> > improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the> > argument: careful avoidance of negative language when discussing> > effects of autism on people's lives - individuals or family members,> > an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers about> > the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could> > inadvertently harm by boy.> > I did not realize how deep the division ran between these two camps,> > but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation could be> > made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally charged> > issue, which certainly makes it harder.> >> > Thanks again,> > Steve>

[Guest guest]

Hey Steve,

On that topic, my son was 20 when we started chelating. About six months into it, he typed out on his computer, "My hands are changing. Get me an OT." This was a young man who had had occupational therapy services for most of his life and had stopped in high school because of no further progress. (He has mild CP as well as autism--also probably mercury-induced. Read the Bernard paper.)

Anyway, we got some in-home OT services from our local hospital. The OT was told by her supervisor that she would probably only be there for a month, since they didn't expect progress at this age. Guess what? They've been here now for four or five years! When we chelated regularly his progress was faster; when we took breaks, it slowed down. But NOBODY expected someone without a pincer grasp to get one at the age of 21. It doesn't happen. Mercury out--development starts again.

Barb

Re: Not understanding - summary of findings (One more voice)

That's great news for your son, Karin. I am really glad things are improving so well for him.I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?And this brings up a great point I have often thought about regarding treatment and outcome. The big questions is this: Are signs of improvement always attributable to treatment, or can improvement also be simply due to the normal process of maturation. I have talked to so many parents who have claimed that a certain treatment (pick one: diet, ABA, homeo-, chelation, hbot, etc etc) resulted in a certain improvement, but when you look at the age of the child it is easy to see that it is possible the new skill, behavior, etc could have happened without any type of treatment at all! This is definitely the case with my son. It was easy to ascribe his newfound speech to a combination of ABA and SLT, but he was at the age when a developmentally delayed child could very well begin to speak without these supports anyway. Interesting topic, I think.Steve>> I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a great discussion> which has caused me to think a lot more about the issues. I just wanted to> mention to Steve that there are some kids out there who don't seem to have> the gut issues as bad as others. My child is like that and I never could> get into the diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a couple of> years to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue. We also> outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism community. :-)> > However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's in that I do> not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help me make my> decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of research, not because I> don't believe in the science, but I've lost confidence and trust in so much> of the mainstream. (I struggled to figure out what word to put there after> "mainstream" - so I just left it at that.) What I do believe is that there> is a lot that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have been> listening to other parents, reading, and studying my child and listening to> my inner "gut" feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever you want to call> it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best I can as a Mom and the> person I consider to be solely responsible for what happens to my child> (along with my husband). My son is now 7, and he was diagnosed at age 3.> At 6 years of age we began a homeopathic protocol that has led him very far> to what I believe is a road to recovery. I use homeopathy because I know> that it works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but I have seen> homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with our pets.> (not placebo) Most people who want as much scientific research as you seem> to want, would never consider homeopathy. I understand that. I am just> bringing this out because it is just another example of the things parents> out there are doing to help their children. We have had great success I> might add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in Kindergarten> last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st grade. He is also> very social and has a very active imagination, plays with toys> appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements including sensory> issues. We never did diets and we did not do any other therapies except> some speech therapy for a while. We also have not chelated.> > Just wanted to share another perspective.> > Take care,> ~ Karin> > p.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something like small> pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about vaccinations are not only> about the additives - I disagree with the approach to treating disease that> way. (too long of a discussion to write more about here)> > > Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me to understand what the> > tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so> > defensive.> > It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in information-> > gathering and looked into the findings of the other "side" of this> > argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be> > intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and others'> > children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the facts> > they choose to favor over others. The common thread was healthy> > debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I have> > done with you all.> > What I have settled on is this. From your "side" of the argument:> > no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A> > consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues and is> > improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the> > argument: careful avoidance of negative language when discussing> > effects of autism on people's lives - individuals or family members,> > an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers about> > the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could> > inadvertently harm by boy.> > I did not realize how deep the division ran between these two camps,> > but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation could be> > made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally charged> > issue, which certainly makes it harder.> >> > Thanks again,> > Steve>

[Guest guest]

Oh, and Steve, we've heard of MANY, MANY children who did strict ABA with little progress, but as soon as they started chelating, their ABA took off!!!

Barb

Re: Not understanding - summary of findings (One more voice)

That's great news for your son, Karin. I am really glad things are improving so well for him.I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?And this brings up a great point I have often thought about regarding treatment and outcome. The big questions is this: Are signs of improvement always attributable to treatment, or can improvement also be simply due to the normal process of maturation. I have talked to so many parents who have claimed that a certain treatment (pick one: diet, ABA, homeo-, chelation, hbot, etc etc) resulted in a certain improvement, but when you look at the age of the child it is easy to see that it is possible the new skill, behavior, etc could have happened without any type of treatment at all! This is definitely the case with my son. It was easy to ascribe his newfound speech to a combination of ABA and SLT, but he was at the age when a developmentally delayed child could very well begin to speak without these supports anyway. Interesting topic, I think.Steve>> I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a great discussion> which has caused me to think a lot more about the issues. I just wanted to> mention to Steve that there are some kids out there who don't seem to have> the gut issues as bad as others. My child is like that and I never could> get into the diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a couple of> years to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue. We also> outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism community. :-)> > However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's in that I do> not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help me make my> decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of research, not because I> don't believe in the science, but I've lost confidence and trust in so much> of the mainstream. (I struggled to figure out what word to put there after> "mainstream" - so I just left it at that.) What I do believe is that there> is a lot that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have been> listening to other parents, reading, and studying my child and listening to> my inner "gut" feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever you want to call> it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best I can as a Mom and the> person I consider to be solely responsible for what happens to my child> (along with my husband). My son is now 7, and he was diagnosed at age 3.> At 6 years of age we began a homeopathic protocol that has led him very far> to what I believe is a road to recovery. I use homeopathy because I know> that it works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but I have seen> homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with our pets.> (not placebo) Most people who want as much scientific research as you seem> to want, would never consider homeopathy. I understand that. I am just> bringing this out because it is just another example of the things parents> out there are doing to help their children. We have had great success I> might add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in Kindergarten> last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st grade. He is also> very social and has a very active imagination, plays with toys> appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements including sensory> issues. We never did diets and we did not do any other therapies except> some speech therapy for a while. We also have not chelated.> > Just wanted to share another perspective.> > Take care,> ~ Karin> > p.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something like small> pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about vaccinations are not only> about the additives - I disagree with the approach to treating disease that> way. (too long of a discussion to write more about here)> > > Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me to understand what the> > tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so> > defensive.> > It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in information-> > gathering and looked into the findings of the other "side" of this> > argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be> > intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and others'> > children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the facts> > they choose to favor over others. The common thread was healthy> > debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I have> > done with you all.> > What I have settled on is this. From your "side" of the argument:> > no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A> > consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues and is> > improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the> > argument: careful avoidance of negative language when discussing> > effects of autism on people's lives - individuals or family members,> > an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers about> > the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could> > inadvertently harm by boy.> > I did not realize how deep the division ran between these two camps,> > but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation could be> > made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally charged> > issue, which certainly makes it harder.> >> > Thanks again,> > Steve>

[Guest guest]

Barb, you made with cry with happiness for

the hope of continued progress no matter what age. Really inspirational! Thank

you,

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of jromkema

Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006

8:47 AM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: Re: Not

understanding - summary of findings (One more voice)

Hey Steve,

On that topic, my son was 20 when we started chelating. About six

months into it, he typed out on his computer, " My hands are changing. Get

me an OT. " This was a young man who had had occupational therapy

services for most of his life and had stopped in high school because of no

further progress. (He has mild CP as well as autism--also probably

mercury-induced. Read the Bernard paper.)

Anyway, we got some in-home OT services from our local hospital.

The OT was told by her supervisor that she would probably only be there for a

month, since they didn't expect progress at this age. Guess what?

They've been here now for four or five years! When we chelated regularly

his progress was faster; when we took breaks, it slowed down. But NOBODY

expected someone without a pincer grasp to get one at the age of 21. It

doesn't happen. Mercury out--development starts again.

Barb

[Guest guest]

That's one great story of success, Karin! I grinned through the whole part about improvements, probably because it sounds so similar to our son.

Steve

-----Original Message-----From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ]On Behalf Of kebmwSent: Monday, October 30, 2006 4:51 AMEOHarm Subject: Re: Not understanding - summary of findings (One more voice)

Hi Steve,We chose not to pursue ABA because it just did not seem right to me. I know that probably sounds like a ridiculous reason, but the idea ofhaving us or others work with our son for up to 40 hours a week,pursuing things by rote - it felt like I would be putting my child ina full time job and he was only 3 years old. I had some contact withother children who had ABA therapy and/or were in the process of itand even though there were definite abilities and progress - it wasnot what I was looking for for my son. Believe me I questioned myselfa lot because I kept hearing about how it was the only therapy withscientifc research behind it - proven to produce results, and ofcourse the constant reminder that the child needs this the earlier thebetter and if the child gets too old it will be too late. At the timebehavioral therapies were the only thing I knew of. I stronglybelieved that his social skills needed attention first. I did notfeel that ABA would help him in the way I wanted help. He was such ahappy 3 year old and even though he could spend hours in the bathtubplaying with water, or stimmed through the house and was definitely"in his own little world" he did seem very happy there and I did notwant to disrupt that to force him into our world at that point. Eventually I took a workshop that taught me a little bit aboutsomething like floortime (although it wasn't floortime/Greenspan) andthat was more my style. We already interacted with him like that andcould get a response from him. So that was more what we did - justplay with him like we would have played with any other child - butmore toward his likes and dislikes - including just imitating hisstimming. As for progress... he did progress from the ages of 3 to 5 withmaturation and he was in early intervention at our local publicschool. He had some words, but very poor pronunciation and nosentences, absolutely no conversation. He did not play with otherchildren. And many other typical "autistic traits". I kept trying tolearn about autism, and any therapy I heard about. When I finally gotto a conference about biomedical interventions, I had a whole new areato explore. It took me about 6 months of trying to learn aboutmercury, toxicity, gut issues, etc. The first thing I triedhesitantly was some herbal drops that contained "natural chelators"(chlorella and cilantro). I gave him one drop. The next day hepicked up a play microphone and started singing and pretending he wasperforming. We had been watching American Idol for a few weeks and hewas pretending. He had never done anything like this before. It wasso dramatic that everyone in the family sat in disbelief as he put onthis "show" for the whole family (some were visiting from out oftown). He had not even sung a song in the previous 3 years before heregressed and he had never "pretended" anything nor sought attentionfrom people, much less a group. It was just too shocking to believethat it was just a coincidence, although it was incredibly hard tobelieve that it could come from one drop of an herbal chelator. Icontinued giving it to him for the next few weeks, staying at a lowdose of one drop per day and increasing another drop each week. At 5drops (5 weeks) he showed some signs of problems with it - detoxingtoo fast. I decreased to 4 drops and he was fine but continued toimprove. At that point I was ready to pursue more with chelation anddetoxing. I was looking for a DAN! doctor and wanted to try regularchelation. I was still nervous about the chelation protocols(motherly instincts again) and I learned about the type of homeopathythat we are currently using. At this point he was about to turn 6years old and was in a self-contained autism classroom at school withabout 30 minutes of inclusion time in a regular classroom. We beganthe protocol in the Summer as soon as school got out. I have kept adetailed diary of his response to the homeopathy. I do not have anydoubt as to what has been leading him in his leaps of progress. Overthe Summer he began playing with other children (that he has known allhis life but never played with), he began pretending, he startedspeaking in sentences, he taught himself to swim and many other bigsteps forward. It was so fast that we were almost in shock. When hestarted school again in the fall, I asked that he be allowed to repeatKindergarten and have more inclusion time. Because he was not in anykind of an ABA program, he was behind academically compared to hispeers and even his autistic peers. I accepted this because I felt hecould always catch up academically in his life and I wanted him todevelop social skills and other skills first. With great reluctancethe school allowed him to be in full inclusion expecting him to failand go back to the self-contained classroom. Instead he flourishedand they could not believe that he had made so much progress over theSummer. He has been in full inclusion ever since. I'm sorry thisstory has got to be so long, but I am not very good at writingshort-but-sweet e-mails. :-) He has continued on the homeopathicprotocol for the past 1 1/2 years and with each month when he takes anew set of remedies, new improvements appear. It is often verydramatic. Little by little the school has dropped many of hissupports. He no longer has an aide, he does not have adaptive PEanymore. Many, many other things. I do not believe he would haveprogressed at this rate without the homeopathy. I have seen the otherkids he was in class with since he was 3 years old and they have nothad the kind of changes he has had. Some have had ABA and othertherapies, some have had no interventions except for what they get atschool. Yes there is progress even with the children who have nointerventions, so I do think that there would be some progress thatwould not be because of treatment. But I have the diary I have keptsince he was diagnosed and all I can offer is my opinion - I do nothave any scientific research to prove it. It's anectdotal. But Idon't care. :-) I would not spend the money if I didn't think it washelping him and all I care about is helping my son have a happy,fulfilled life and become a contributor to society.Again, sorry this got so long.Best to you!~ Karin>> That's great news for your son, Karin. I am really glad things are > improving so well for him.> I am curious - why did you opt not to do ABA? Our concern when we > started it is that it too resembled dog-training. I have since > lightened my view of it, and my son is doing noticeably better, but > we had our reservations too. Did you have the same reservations?> > And this brings up a great point I have often thought about > regarding treatment and outcome. The big questions is this: Are > signs of improvement always attributable to treatment, or can > improvement also be simply due to the normal process of maturation. > I have talked to so many parents who have claimed that a certain > treatment (pick one: diet, ABA, homeo-, chelation, hbot, etc etc) > resulted in a certain improvement, but when you look at the age of > the child it is easy to see that it is possible the new skill, > behavior, etc could have happened without any type of treatment at > all! This is definitely the case with my son. It was easy to > ascribe his newfound speech to a combination of ABA and SLT, but he > was at the age when a developmentally delayed child could very well > begin to speak without these supports anyway. Interesting topic, I > think.> Steve>>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Barb. Thanks for posting. You give me hope.

I read a study that said if you don't start chelating by age 8, it's

useless.

Now I know,

Carolyn

> >

> > I've read this thread with a lot of interest - it's been a

great

> discussion

> > which has caused me to think a lot more about the issues. I

just

> wanted to

> > mention to Steve that there are some kids out there who don't

seem

> to have

> > the gut issues as bad as others. My child is like that and I

> never could

> > get into the diets or see good reason to do so. It took me a

> couple of

> > years to wrap my head around the vaccine/heavy metals issue.

We

> also

> > outright rejected ABA despite it's reverence in the Autism

> community. :-)

> >

> > However my approach is probably completely opposite of Steve's

in

> that I do

> > not painstakingly research the science and the studies to help

me

> make my

> > decisions. In fact I'm quite skeptical of a lot of research,

not

> because I

> > don't believe in the science, but I've lost confidence and

trust

> in so much

> > of the mainstream. (I struggled to figure out what word to put

> there after

> > " mainstream " - so I just left it at that.) What I do believe

is

> that there

> > is a lot that science can't explain..... YET. Instead I have

been

> > listening to other parents, reading, and studying my child and

> listening to

> > my inner " gut " feelings - motherly instincts, or whatever you

want

> to call

> > it. I act slowly and cautiously and do the best I can as a Mom

> and the

> > person I consider to be solely responsible for what happens to

my

> child

> > (along with my husband). My son is now 7, and he was diagnosed

at

> age 3.

> > At 6 years of age we began a homeopathic protocol that has led

him

> very far

> > to what I believe is a road to recovery. I use homeopathy

because

> I know

> > that it works. I do not have any studies to back that up, but

I

> have seen

> > homeopathy work with my own eyes in our family, and even with

our

> pets.

> > (not placebo) Most people who want as much scientific research

> as you seem

> > to want, would never consider homeopathy. I understand that. I

> am just

> > bringing this out because it is just another example of the

things

> parents

> > out there are doing to help their children. We have had great

> success I

> > might add. My son became verbal and was fully mainstreamed in

> Kindergarten

> > last year and he continues to progress this year in 1st grade.

He

> is also

> > very social and has a very active imagination, plays with toys

> > appropriately, does not stim, and other improvements including

> sensory

> > issues. We never did diets and we did not do any other

therapies

> except

> > some speech therapy for a while. We also have not chelated.

> >

> > Just wanted to share another perspective.

> >

> > Take care,

> > ~ Karin

> >

> > p.s. I would never vaccinate again, unless maybe for something

> like small

> > pox if it was needed. Although my concerns about vaccinations

> are not only

> > about the additives - I disagree with the approach to treating

> disease that

> > way. (too long of a discussion to write more about here)

> >

> >

> > Thanks. Your response and Kendra's help me to understand what

the

> > > tone of strife of strife came from. Perhaps I shuld not be so

> > > defensive.

> > > It may come as no surprise that I have also engaged in

> information-

> > > gathering and looked into the findings of the other " side "

of

> this

> > > argument. As I have found with this group, I found them to be

> > > intelligent, very focussed on the welfare of their and

others'

> > > children, and full of unassailable positions backed by the

facts

> > > they choose to favor over others. The common thread was

healthy

> > > debate and I gave them every opportunity to convince me as I

have

> > > done with you all.

> > > What I have settled on is this. From your " side " of the

argument:

> > > no vaccines for my kids. A wary eye cast on CDC/Government. A

> > > consideration of GFCF, even though my son has no gut issues

and

> is

> > > improving nicely with b-mod approach. From their side of the

> > > argument: careful avoidance of negative language when

discussing

> > > effects of autism on people's lives - individuals or family

> members,

> > > an emphasis on listening to autistics themselves for answers

> about

> > > the condition, careful avoidance of any treatment that could

> > > inadvertently harm by boy.

> > > I did not realize how deep the division ran between these

two

> camps,

> > > but I hope that, moving into the future, a reconciliation

could

> be

> > > made to the benefit of everyone. This is a very emotionally

> charged

> > > issue, which certainly makes it harder.

> > >

> > > Thanks again,

> > > Steve

> >

>