Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Can it get any worse? So, they plan to ignore the concerns of the actual people who are dealing with autism. And, plan to dictate how we can medically care for our affected children? Oh, and the " Director " is going to be from the CDC..wonderful Unbelievable. BTW, That " best practices " Bull shit is a catch phrase/jargon I've heard Pratt use many times.Some generic lingo. She probably clued them in on how to say something without really saying anything at all. I'm fuming. Looking forward to getting some direction from our key organizations. Thanks for the update Lenny. > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, includes this > new language: > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting through the > Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best practices > for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention strategies for > individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other developmental > disabilities. > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This raises some > disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language allows the > CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments like chelation, > for example. > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language the > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; it now > contains language that is devastating to families with autism seeking > biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In it's current > form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is little time to do so. > This language has been tacked on to the bill just before it gets fast > tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. This could become > law within days and we will have been betrayed again unless we can do > something about it. > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the process of > assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some pointed > announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the sounds of > silence from others. > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the Schafer Autism > Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > Lenny Schafer > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Could this be MUCH worse than we all thought???!!! I think I’m going to be sick. If I call all of my reps right now I might start swearing. - From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of schaferatsprynet Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:31 AM EOHarm Subject: CAA: A Trojan Horse The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, includes this new language: (3) Implementation of best practices.—The Secretary, acting through the Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best practices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention strategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other developmental disabilities. The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This raises some disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language allows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments like chelation, for example. The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language the consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; it now contains language that is devastating to families with autism seeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is little time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the bill just before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. This could become law within days and we will have been betrayed again unless we can do something about it. Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the process of assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some pointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the sounds of silence from others. A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the Schafer Autism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . Lenny Schafer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Please focus you attention on the U.S. Senate. This bill is unfair, not right, wrong, a screw job, rip off, and all other negative things. For those without the benefits of foresight, the CAA bill wants to set up CDC to ban treatments BEFORE they are in any way legally obligated to pay for them. They KNOW they are guilty. They KNOW they caused this epidemic of autism. They KNOW that they can count on CDC to "legalize" their continued forms of child neglect and child abuse. Hopefully, we can all see that they are looking ahead to the day when we families square off in *some* kind of legal setting. Regardless of which treatments help which children if they have a CDC ban on these treatments *somebody* is not legally obligated to pay for them. The analogy of the government presenting some of us families with the CAA "poisoned apple" is most fitting. Please do not bite. Please keep hounding the Senate with calls, faxes, and E-mails. RE: CAA: A Trojan Horse Could this be MUCH worse than we all thought???!!! I think I’m going to be sick. If I call all of my reps right now I might start swearing. - From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of schaferatsprynetSent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:31 AMEOHarm Subject: CAA: A Trojan Horse The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, includesthis new language:(3) Implementation of best practices.—The Secretary, acting throughthe Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based bestpractices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and interventionstrategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and otherdevelopmental disabilities.The "Director" this refers to is the director of the CDC. This raisessome disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this languageallows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatmentslike chelation, for example. The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language theconsensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; itnow contains language that is devastating to families with autismseeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there islittle time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the billjust before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate forquick passage. This could become law within days and we will have beenbetrayed again unless we can do something about it. Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the processof assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear somepointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and thesounds of silence from others.A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the SchaferAutism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . Lenny Schafer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I hear bells tolling. And they're not coming from above. > > Could this be MUCH worse than we all thought???!!! I think I'm going to be > sick. If I call all of my reps right now I might start swearing. - > > > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of > schaferatsprynet > Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:31 AM > EOHarm > Subject: CAA: A Trojan Horse > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, includes > this new language: > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting through > the Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best > practices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention > strategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other > developmental disabilities. > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This raises > some disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language > allows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments > like chelation, for example. > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language the > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; it > now contains language that is devastating to families with autism > seeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. > In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is > little time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the bill > just before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate for > quick passage. This could become law within days and we will have been > betrayed again unless we can do something about it. > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the process > of assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some > pointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the > sounds of silence from others. > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the Schafer > Autism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > Lenny Schafer > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I agree. And I wonder if maybe it was naive to ever think we could get the government to fund appropriate, productive and useful research. Even if they were to further examine vaccines, what's to prevent them from just funding additional BS vaccine studies like the ones we have now? Is this yet ANOTHER thing we parents will ultimately have to do ourselves??? Jenna > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, > includes this > > new language: > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting > through the > > Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best > practices > > for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention strategies > for > > individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other developmental > > disabilities. > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This > raises some > > disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language > allows the > > CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments like > chelation, > > for example. > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language > the > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; > it now > > contains language that is devastating to families with autism > seeking > > biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In > it's current > > form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is little time > to do so. > > This language has been tacked on to the bill just before it gets > fast > > tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. This could > become > > law within days and we will have been betrayed again unless we can > do > > something about it. > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the > process of > > assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some > pointed > > announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the > sounds of > > silence from others. > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the > Schafer Autism > > Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Actually, best practice guidelines are critically significant. Doctors are expected to conduct their practices in accordance with principles delineated in these guidelines. Departure from them can create liability and censure (or even lost of licensure) for a physician. For example, if AAP best practice guidelines require that all infants be screened for developmental disabilities at their 18 month check up (this would be a " good " best practice), and a pediatrician does not conduct a screening at that time, he/she is potentially liable for resultant damages. On the flip-side, if a best practice guideline states that children with ASD not be worked up for GI and immune issues (I believe that there is an AAP guideline to that effect out there), then if a pediatrician were to order such tests, he/she could create liability for themselves by doing so (e.g., if something went awry in administering the tests). Best practice guidelines are also intimately tied to medical insurance coverage. The language addition re best practice guidelines that Lenny is referring to is a BIG deal. Jenna > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, > includes this > > new language: > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting > through the > > Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best > practices > > for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention strategies > for > > individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other developmental > > disabilities. > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This > raises some > > disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language > allows the > > CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments like > chelation, > > for example. > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language > the > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; > it now > > contains language that is devastating to families with autism > seeking > > biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In > it's current > > form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is little time > to do so. > > This language has been tacked on to the bill just before it gets > fast > > tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. This could > become > > law within days and we will have been betrayed again unless we can > do > > something about it. > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the > process of > > assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some > pointed > > announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the > sounds of > > silence from others. > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the > Schafer Autism > > Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Jenna, I see what you are saying about " best practices " . My point was I have heard that term thrown out by a certain autism " expert " and she uses it ambiguously. As soon as I read the phrase " best practice " that is what I thought of ambiguity/generic/eclectic. The way things are going based on what Lenny said with CAA and the points you brought up any " best practices " probably isn't going to be in favor of getting our kids healthy. Especially if they are going to dictate treament options. > > > > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, > > includes this > > > new language: > > > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting > > through the > > > Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best > > practices > > > for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention strategies > > for > > > individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other developmental > > > disabilities. > > > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This > > raises some > > > disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language > > allows the > > > CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments like > > chelation, > > > for example. > > > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research > language > > the > > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; > > it now > > > contains language that is devastating to families with autism > > seeking > > > biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In > > it's current > > > form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is little time > > to do so. > > > This language has been tacked on to the bill just before it gets > > fast > > > tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. This > could > > become > > > law within days and we will have been betrayed again unless we > can > > do > > > something about it. > > > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the > > process of > > > assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some > > pointed > > > announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the > > sounds of > > > silence from others. > > > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the > > Schafer Autism > > > Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 No. > > Your political acumen has been most prescient. > It is just amazing to me just how far our government has fallen. > And the Senate is complicit. > Is there not an honest, decent politician out there? > > CAA: A Trojan Horse > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, includes > this new language: > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting through > the Director, shall promote research to determine evidence- based best > practices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention > strategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other > developmental disabilities. > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This raises > some disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language > allows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments > like chelation, for example. > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language the > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; it > now contains language that is devastating to families with autism > seeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. > In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is > little time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the bill > just before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate for > quick passage. This could become law within days and we will have been > betrayed again unless we can do something about it. > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the process > of assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some > pointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the > sounds of silence from others. > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the Schafer > Autism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > Lenny Schafer > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 This sounds like an opportunity for us to walk into court and blow this up in their faces. How many parents could we find to testify that chelation works? Would any jury decide 100 parents showed up to lie about it? I think it would be a nice precedent to have to throw into the autism omnibus case. Any lawyers here think this would be an easy win? > > > > Your political acumen has been most prescient. > > It is just amazing to me just how far our government has fallen. > > And the Senate is complicit. > > Is there not an honest, decent politician out there? > > > > CAA: A Trojan Horse > > > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, > includes > > this new language: > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting > through > > the Director, shall promote research to determine evidence- > based best > > practices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and > intervention > > strategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and > other > > developmental disabilities. > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This > raises > > some disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this > language > > allows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical > treatments > > like chelation, for example. > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research > language the > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped > out; it > > now contains language that is devastating to families with > autism > > seeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan > horse. > > In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but > there is > > little time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the > bill > > just before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate > for > > quick passage. This could become law within days and we will > have been > > betrayed again unless we can do something about it. > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the > process > > of assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear > some > > pointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, > and the > > sounds of silence from others. > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the > Schafer > > Autism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 Kerbob; All that stuff is why one of us turning ourselves in for using chelation if it's made illegal and getting a jury trial would work in our favor. The door is wide open for us to present any evidence we want in our own defense. They can muddy the waters but they can't deny cured children. > > > > > > Your political acumen has been most prescient. > > > It is just amazing to me just how far our government has fallen. > > > And the Senate is complicit. > > > Is there not an honest, decent politician out there? > > > > > > CAA: A Trojan Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, > > includes > > > this new language: > > > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting > > through > > > the Director, shall promote research to determine evidence- > > based best > > > practices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and > > intervention > > > strategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and > > other > > > developmental disabilities. > > > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. > This > > raises > > > some disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this > > language > > > allows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical > > treatments > > > like chelation, for example. > > > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research > > language the > > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped > > out; it > > > now contains language that is devastating to families with > > autism > > > seeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan > > horse. > > > In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but > > there is > > > little time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the > > bill > > > just before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate > > for > > > quick passage. This could become law within days and we will > > have been > > > betrayed again unless we can do something about it. > > > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in > the > > process > > > of assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear > > some > > > pointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some > groups, > > and the > > > sounds of silence from others. > > > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the > > Schafer > > > Autism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 Is the " Director " from the CDC or the NIH? I thought it was the NIH Director that was supposed to be made autism czar. > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, includes this > new language: > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting through the > Director, shall promote research to determine evidence-based best practices > for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention strategies for > individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other developmental > disabilities. > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. This raises some > disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this language allows the > CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments like chelation, > for example. > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research language the > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped out; it now > contains language that is devastating to families with autism seeking > biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan horse. In it's current > form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is little time to do so. > This language has been tacked on to the bill just before it gets fast > tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. This could become > law within days and we will have been betrayed again unless we can do > something about it. > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in the process of > assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear some pointed > announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and the sounds of > silence from others. > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the Schafer Autism > Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > Lenny Schafer > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 I'm used to seeing " evidence based " before the words " best practice. " Where's the evidence? Carolyn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out > Tuesday, > > > > > includes this > > > > > > new language: > > > > > > > > > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, > acting > > > > > through the > > > > > > Director, shall promote research to determine evidence- > based > > > best > > > > > practices > > > > > > for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and intervention > > > strategies > > > > > for > > > > > > individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other > > > developmental > > > > > > disabilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. > > This > > > > > raises some > > > > > > disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this > > > language > > > > > allows the > > > > > > CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical treatments > > like > > > > > chelation, > > > > > > for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research > > > > language > > > > > the > > > > > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently > stripped > > > out; > > > > > it now > > > > > > contains language that is devastating to families with > autism > > > > > seeking > > > > > > biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan > horse. > > > In > > > > > it's current > > > > > > form, it should be strenuously opposed, but there is > little > > > time > > > > > to do so. > > > > > > This language has been tacked on to the bill just before > it > > > gets > > > > > fast > > > > > > tracked through the house and senate for quick passage. > This > > > > could > > > > > become > > > > > > law within days and we will have been betrayed again > unless > > we > > > > can > > > > > do > > > > > > something about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in > > the > > > > > process of > > > > > > assessing these latest developments. I expect we will > hear > > > some > > > > > pointed > > > > > > announcements over the next 24 hours from some groups, and > > the > > > > > sounds of > > > > > > silence from others. > > > > > > > > > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in > the > > > > > Schafer Autism > > > > > > Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > > > > > > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 Dr Fudenberg; Dr Deth tells us that the kids improve because, once the mercury is gone they can manufacture their own Methyl-B-12 which allows them to pay attention to the world around them. What's a Secreting r? I never heard of it. Thanks in advance.. > > > > > > > > Your political acumen has been most prescient. > > > > It is just amazing to me just how far our government has > fallen. > > > > And the Senate is complicit. > > > > Is there not an honest, decent politician out there? > > > > > > > > CAA: A Trojan Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The latest version of the CAA bill, which came out Tuesday, > > > includes > > > > this new language: > > > > > > > > (3) Implementation of best practices.-The Secretary, acting > > > through > > > > the Director, shall promote research to determine evidence- > > > based best > > > > practices for diagnosis or rule out, treatment, and > > > intervention > > > > strategies for individuals with autism spectrum disorder and > > > other > > > > developmental disabilities. > > > > > > > > The " Director " this refers to is the director of the CDC. > > This > > > raises > > > > some disturbing questions, the gravest of which is that this > > > language > > > > allows the CDC to ban biomedical treatments -- biomedical > > > treatments > > > > like chelation, for example. > > > > > > > > The current CAA not only has none of the vaccine research > > > language the > > > > consensus coalition promoted and that was recently stripped > > > out; it > > > > now contains language that is devastating to families with > > > autism > > > > seeking biomedical treatments. This legislation is a trojan > > > horse. > > > > In it's current form, it should be strenuously opposed, but > > > there is > > > > little time to do so. This language has been tacked on to the > > > bill > > > > just before it gets fast tracked through the house and senate > > > for > > > > quick passage. This could become law within days and we will > > > have been > > > > betrayed again unless we can do something about it. > > > > > > > > Autism organizations who have supported the CAA are now in > > the > > > process > > > > of assessing these latest developments. I expect we will hear > > > some > > > > pointed announcements over the next 24 hours from some > > groups, > > > and the > > > > sounds of silence from others. > > > > > > > > A similar alert to this effect will appear later today in the > > > Schafer > > > > Autism Report. What can we do? Stay tuned. . . > > > > > > > > Lenny Schafer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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