Re: OT: Why healthcare is not a civil right

[Guest guest]

Health care for all is a noble cause of course. Health care is a human

right according to UN treaty signed by USA. All freedoms are supported by

government. For example, if parents decided to leave their children

uneducated, the government will interfere. The Canadian and the French

healthcare

for all are not bankrupt . But you never answered to my question why we have

to pay more than the French yet to have a system that covers less

citizens. Why less healthcare costs more? Where does the money go?

In a message dated 9/27/2009 9:45:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,

way2square@... writes:

The UN has defined two categories of rights: 1.) Human Rights, and 2.)

Civil Rights. Human rights are those granted by God, like the right to be

born, the right not to be enslaved, or the right not to be killed because of

your beliefs. Civil Rights are those granted by your government. Examples of

civil rights are the American Bill of Rights including the right to vote,

the right to petition your government, the right to free speech, etc. Civil

rights are thought to be unquestionable because they protect individuals

from state power. Both of these categories are freedoms, not services that you

are entitled to receive.

In the 20th century, the USA witnessed a noble struggle for black citizens

to win basic civil rights like the right to vote and participate in their

own government. This struggle was over the right of blacks to participate

as full citizens. It was not a program to divide resources equally among all

citizens.

Today, certain people who favor health care reform are saying " healthcare

is a civil right " because they want to make it look like their cause is as

noble and lofty as the civil rights struggles of the 20th century. But, the

current US healthcare debate is simply about how the government can make

access to healthcare services more efficient. It is a debate over what

services should be provided by whom. There are no basic rights involved at all,

Human or Civil.

You don't have a " right " to healthcare any more than you have a right to

food, or a right to a job. Neither God nor any government can grant you such

a right. In countries like Canada or France, you have a right to petition

an agency for healthcare, but you have no guaranteed right to receive it.

(And, by the way, both Canada's and France's healthcare systems are

essentially bankrupt.)

So, by definition, healthcare is not a civil right and can never be.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Actually, the Bill of Rights does not /GRANT/ anything. It recognizes

these rights as inherent, and /pre-existing/ the Constitution of the

United States. These rights are not granted by the government at all.

You already have them -- whether government infringes on them or not.

way2square wrote on 09/27/09 10:44:

> Civil Rights are those granted by your government. Examples of civil

> rights are the American Bill of Rights including the right to vote,

> the right to petition your government, the right to free speech, etc.

> Civil rights are thought to be unquestionable because they protect

> individuals from state power. Both of these categories are freedoms,

> not services that you are entitled to receive.

[Guest guest]

Hi Bettylou,

Yes, we hear all kinds of bad things lately about the Canadian health care

system. mentioned one of them: Canadian health care system is

collapsing!

About the waiting period for services the truth is that here too there is

a long waiting period if the test is not an emergency. For example, if you

miss your annual mammogram, you have to wait 3-6 months for the next one.

Also, sometimes we have to fight heard for tilt-recline. A friend with MS

with excellent private insurance, Medicare and Medicaid had to renew his

wheelchair. He started 5 months ago. He still does not have the w/chair. He

hopes to have it by Christmas.

The reason I support health care for all is the fact that American people

pay too much, and, most importantly, when we become very sick and costly ,

the private insurances just abandon you. Then you have to make your self

poor to qualify for government insurance--Medicaid. Where is the money you

spent on your deductibles, your premiums all these years? Why all this money

does not go to the government insurance from the begging so that it can be

spent on health care and not in the pockets of CEO?

Now I have a question for you, Bettylou, if you do not mind. In the US

only Medicaid provides long term health care at home (caregivers). How are

things in Canada?

In a message dated 9/27/2009 8:32:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,

eross@... writes:

Now wait a minute, . I want to speak as an American who's lived in

Canada most of my adult life, and parent of a child with type 2.

, I agree with you in principle: health care is NOT a civil or

human right. In Canada, it's a service provided by government in return

for taxes - like roads or schools. (Don't get me going on schools: we

use a private school.) But our health care system isn't bankrupt. It

isn't perfect, but most of the time it works not badly. Yes, there are

problems: long waits in ER, lack of GPs in smaller communities,

sometimes unacceptable waits for procedures. Hospitals get mad when the

province requires them to balance their budgets. However, if your need

is urgent/critical, you do generally get seen pretty quickly. We've been

in ER/surgery enough in the last couple of years - I know.

I find that Cdn hospitals don't have the bells and whistles that most

Amer ones do - no fancy decor, etc. No Dr. House. But the essentials are

there.

However, I'm not certain that Canada's system will work in the US. For

one thing, Canada doesn't spend a huge amount of its GDP on the military

(instead, we count on the US to defend us.) And that health care system

is expensive. For another, people who have been accustomed to 'the very

best, the fastest' won't be happy receiving more limited service. For

example, we couldn't get a Permobil chair, or a chair that stands - not

approved under Ontario's Assistive Devices Program. But they do cover

75% of the cost of a chair with tilt/recline. Supplemental health

insurance thru my husband's work covers most of the rest of the cost.

I know we wouldn't be able to get insurance if we moved to the US, so we

are content to stay here and be assured of care. I'm not sure what you

are referring to 'petition an agency for healthcare' - I've never heard

of such a thing. Yes, sometimes you have to fight for equipment such as

tilt/recline - similar to justifying it to an insurance company.

So please don't listen to special interests who try to scare you with

horror stories from Canada. It would be wonderful if the US adopted

something that would work as well as ours - though I don't think that

will happen. And it would be extremely difficult to implement it in the US.

, I love your posts, by the way. I always read them. I love the way

you respectfully stand up for your opinions and reason them out, and the

way you speak up as a Christian. I don't support Pres Obama in general -

he's waaay too liberal for me. I just wish for people to receive the

care they need. I think the US is wealthy enough, and generous enough,

to provide for its citizens.

Bettylou

[Guest guest]

Of course! :-)

In a message dated 9/27/2009 8:42:31 P.M. Central Standard Time,

PurplGurl3@... writes:

Whether you want to use the category of human or civil rights is merely

semantics, but I fail to see how you can justify leaving health care out of

both categories. It's right there in the UN's declaration, in article 25:

" Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for

the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food,

clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and

the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness,

disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in

circumstances beyond his control. "

[Guest guest]

Now wait a minute, . I want to speak as an American who's lived in

Canada most of my adult life, and parent of a child with type 2.

, I agree with you in principle: health care is NOT a civil or

human right. In Canada, it's a service provided by government in return

for taxes - like roads or schools. (Don't get me going on schools: we

use a private school.) But our health care system isn't bankrupt. It

isn't perfect, but most of the time it works not badly. Yes, there are

problems: long waits in ER, lack of GPs in smaller communities,

sometimes unacceptable waits for procedures. Hospitals get mad when the

province requires them to balance their budgets. However, if your need

is urgent/critical, you do generally get seen pretty quickly. We've been

in ER/surgery enough in the last couple of years - I know.

I find that Cdn hospitals don't have the bells and whistles that most

Amer ones do - no fancy decor, etc. No Dr. House. But the essentials are

there.

However, I'm not certain that Canada's system will work in the US. For

one thing, Canada doesn't spend a huge amount of its GDP on the military

(instead, we count on the US to defend us.) And that health care system

is expensive. For another, people who have been accustomed to 'the very

best, the fastest' won't be happy receiving more limited service. For

example, we couldn't get a Permobil chair, or a chair that stands - not

approved under Ontario's Assistive Devices Program. But they do cover

75% of the cost of a chair with tilt/recline. Supplemental health

insurance thru my husband's work covers most of the rest of the cost.

I know we wouldn't be able to get insurance if we moved to the US, so we

are content to stay here and be assured of care. I'm not sure what you

are referring to 'petition an agency for healthcare' - I've never heard

of such a thing. Yes, sometimes you have to fight for equipment such as

tilt/recline - similar to justifying it to an insurance company.

So please don't listen to special interests who try to scare you with

horror stories from Canada. It would be wonderful if the US adopted

something that would work as well as ours - though I don't think that

will happen. And it would be extremely difficult to implement it in the US.

, I love your posts, by the way. I always read them. I love the way

you respectfully stand up for your opinions and reason them out, and the

way you speak up as a Christian. I don't support Pres Obama in general -

he's waaay too liberal for me. I just wish for people to receive the

care they need. I think the US is wealthy enough, and generous enough,

to provide for its citizens.

Bettylou

> such a right. In countries like Canada or France, you have a right to

> petition an agency for healthcare, but you have no guaranteed right to

> receive it. (And, by the way, both Canada's and France's healthcare

> systems are essentially bankrupt.)

[Guest guest]

Whether you want to use the category of human or civil rights is merely

semantics, but I fail to see how you can justify leaving health care out of both

categories. It's right there in the UN's declaration, in article 25: " Everyone

has the right to a standard of living adequate for

the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food,

clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and

the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness,

disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in

circumstances beyond his control. "

Access to medical care is a basic, inherent, God-given right, which the

government should protect. Same with food, clothing, etc.

I think this cause is absolutely as noble and as important as the civil rights

struggles of the 20th century (continuing into the 21st; let's not kid ourselves

into thinking it's all over). Too many citizens are trapped in poverty because

of health needs. Too many aren't free to live full lives, and pursue goals and

dreams, and become productive members of society. Social class and socioeconomic

status shouldn't determine how deserving you are of having your medical needs

met. Of being allowed to live!

The UN has defined two categories of rights: 1.) Human Rights, and 2.) Civil

Rights. Human rights are those granted by God, like the right to be born, the

right not to be enslaved, or the right not to be killed because of your beliefs.

Civil Rights are those granted by your government. Examples of civil rights are

the American Bill of Rights including the right to vote, the right to petition

your government, the right to free speech, etc. Civil rights are thought to be

unquestionable because they protect individuals from state power. Both of these

categories are freedoms, not services that you are entitled to receive.

In the 20th century, the USA witnessed a noble struggle for black citizens to

win basic civil rights like the right to vote and participate in their own

government. This struggle was over the right of blacks to participate as full

citizens. It was not a program to divide resources equally among all citizens.

Today, certain people who favor health care reform are saying " healthcare is a

civil right " because they want to make it look like their cause is as noble and

lofty as the civil rights struggles of the 20th century. But, the current US

healthcare debate is simply about how the government can make access to

healthcare services more efficient. It is a debate over what services should be

provided by whom. There are no basic rights involved at all, Human or Civil.

You don't have a " right " to healthcare any more than you have a right to food,

or a right to a job. Neither God nor any government can grant you such a right.

In countries like Canada or France, you have a right to petition an agency for

healthcare, but you have no guaranteed right to receive it. (And, by the way,

both Canada's and France's healthcare systems are essentially bankrupt.)

So, by definition, healthcare is not a civil right and can never be.

Regards,

OT: Why healthcare is not a civil right

The UN has defined two categories of rights: 1.) Human Rights, and 2.) Civil

Rights. Human rights are those granted by God, like the right to be born, the

right not to be enslaved, or the right not to be killed because of your beliefs.

Civil Rights are those granted by your government. Examples of civil rights are

the American Bill of Rights including the right to vote, the right to petition

your government, the right to free speech, etc. Civil rights are thought to be

unquestionable because they protect individuals from state power. Both of these

categories are freedoms, not services that you are entitled to receive.

In the 20th century, the USA witnessed a noble struggle for black citizens to

win basic civil rights like the right to vote and participate in their own

government. This struggle was over the right of blacks to participate as full

citizens. It was not a program to divide resources equally among all citizens.

Today, certain people who favor health care reform are saying " healthcare is a

civil right " because they want to make it look like their cause is as noble and

lofty as the civil rights struggles of the 20th century. But, the current US

healthcare debate is simply about how the government can make access to

healthcare services more efficient. It is a debate over what services should be

provided by whom. There are no basic rights involved at all, Human or Civil.

You don't have a " right " to healthcare any more than you have a right to food,

or a right to a job. Neither God nor any government can grant you such a right.

In countries like Canada or France, you have a right to petition an agency for

healthcare, but you have no guaranteed right to receive it. (And, by the way,

both Canada's and France's healthcare systems are essentially bankrupt.)

So, by definition, healthcare is not a civil right and can never be.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

As far as I know (which is very limited as we aren't in this mode yet)

there is very little provision for in-home caregivers such as adult with

SMA would need. Some hours per week, not full time. Some nursing care is

provided where there is need, I think. Either you have family who help

you, or you are in a long term care facility, or if you are stronger,

you are in a home with access to shared caregivers. Not good.

Bettylou

>

> Now I have a question for you, Bettylou, if you do not mind. In the US

> only Medicaid provides long term health care at home (caregivers). How are

> things in Canada?

[Guest guest]

Since healthcare in Canada is a provincial jurisdiction, services very from

region to region. In Ontario where I live, a person with a disability can

access two hours a day of in-home attendant care service. There is also a

program known as Direct Funding where you can apply to the government for up

to six hours a day of attendant care service provided that you can oversee

all the responsibilities related to hiring, keeping, and firing your own

staff. There is a waiting list for this program but I know many people who

use it successfully (the main problem being finding good staff). I've lived

for 20 years in an apartment building that offers on-site attendant care

service 24/7. 14 out of 76 apartments are wheelchair accessible so there

isn't a sense of living in a group home. However, a number of homes have

recently been established for younger, more high-level disabled individuals

who want their own space but don't mind sharing a communal kitchen and

living room. There are also a number of co-ops that offer single homes or

townhomes with the attendant care service. It really matters on the city

you live in, size etc., and the government in power. Whenever we have a

conservative, provincial government in power, things like home care do get

slashed.

As for tilt/recline seating systems, I've had three in the last 15 years and

as long as I had a registered occupational therapist applying for the

funding, I never had a problem receiving coverage.

As with anything, it's the people who don't have access to good information

who tend to fall through the cracks.

Karyna

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Bettylou Ross

Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:13 AM

Subject: Re: OT: Why healthcare is not a civil right

As far as I know (which is very limited as we aren't in this mode yet)

there is very little provision for in-home caregivers such as adult with

SMA would need. Some hours per week, not full time. Some nursing care is

provided where there is need, I think. Either you have family who help

you, or you are in a long term care facility, or if you are stronger,

you are in a home with access to shared caregivers. Not good.

Bettylou

>

> Now I have a question for you, Bettylou, if you do not mind. In the US

> only Medicaid provides long term health care at home (caregivers). How are

> things in Canada?

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05:51:00

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the run down!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: OT: Why healthcare is not a civil right

As far as I know (which is very limited as we aren't in this mode yet)

there is very little provision for in-home caregivers such as adult with

SMA would need. Some hours per week, not full time. Some nursing care is

provided where there is need, I think. Either you have family who help

you, or you are in a long term care facility, or if you are stronger,

you are in a home with access to shared caregivers. Not good.

Bettylou

>

> Now I have a question for you, Bettylou, if you do not mind. In the US

> only Medicaid provides long term health care at home (caregivers). How are

> things in Canada?

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release Date: 09/28/09

05:51:00