Re: OT: Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love

[Guest guest]

And your point..?

Have you had your amalgams out???

-sarcasm-

>

> (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

>

>

> Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love,

> Say Sisters

>

> By andra Wood

> http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

>

> A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-year-

old

> autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

> Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in April

two

> weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them falling

> from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

> yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just as

the

> " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

public

> awareness about Fragile X syndrome – the condition that had.

> " She was an independent, proud and private person. was the

focus

> and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without him I

> don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had the

> double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope with. And

> she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

> At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

increasingly

> difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease him

> about the way he spoke.

> The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

passed

> from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

males, go

> undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to highlight

> this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would rather

> she hadn't but she has. "

> They said that they did not blame social services, although more

could

> have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another family

for

> but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always take

the

> anti-depressants prescribed.

> " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms Armand.

> " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was vulnerable and

> needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

higher

> risk. "

> Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

,

> has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In their

> final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

said. " There's

> a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

>

> ----------------------

>

> comment:

>

> It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

were

> enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

> had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

wouldn't

> be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

>

> -Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

My point, grasshopper?

Is my complete lack of outrage for outrageous acts, just sympathy for the alleged victimizers. I guess the point may be too subtle or a non-sequitor. My apology if I have confused fellow list members.

Lenny

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of redhead60707Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 3:25 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: OT: Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love

And your point..?Have you had your amalgams out???-sarcasm->> (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)> > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love,> Say Sisters> > By andra Wood> http://tinyurl.com/pet4u> > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-year-old> autistic son was an "act of love", her grieving sisters say.> Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in April two> weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them falling> from the bridge eight seconds apart.> Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister> yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just as the> "woman on the bridge". They also said they would try to raise public> awareness about Fragile X syndrome – the condition that had.> "She was an independent, proud and private person. was the focus> and purpose of her life," said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.> "She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without him I> don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had the> double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope with. And> she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired."> At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting increasingly> difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease him> about the way he spoke.> The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is passed> from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000 males, go> undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: "It is our duty as a family to highlight> this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would rather> she hadn't but she has."> They said that they did not blame social services, although more could> have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another family for> but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always take the> anti-depressants prescribed.> "The help she got from social services was patchy," said Ms Armand.> "There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was vulnerable and> needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as higher> risk."> Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to ,> has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In their> final moments they looked "like two people playing", he said. "There's> a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision."> An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.> > ----------------------> > comment:> > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there were> enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never> had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably wouldn't> be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.> > -Lenny>

[Guest guest]

--I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate on --well...

where the debate went last time.

This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.

What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only way out.

jenny

------------

comment:

It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there were

enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably wouldn't

be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

-Lenny

[Guest guest]

Grasshopper? I don't think I am the pupil in a kung-fu show oh wise one.

Can the sarcasm be dropped, please.

Can we just stick with the facts and not drip sarcasm/opinion on these

horrible deaths.

Kids are being killed/abused in many families around the world.

Autistic or not does not change that fact. They are SICK individuals

and making sense of it is impossible. Justifying it is crazy.

Violence towards any child or adult from a

guardian/caregiver/teacher/relative is NEVER ok.

Being autistic or disabled does not give a parent an excuse on

violence but instead may show that having a disabled child is

causative for someone to become impaired, in thinking, feeling,

morals, ethics, etc. If anything, these deaths have brought another

scary reality to our autism community...could this happen to me?

If you are on other lists, you would see that parents are discussing

that they have had thoughts of harming themselves and their child.

One wise moderator set up a " reach out " file so people can seek

support via email addresses. Some have discussed depression in their

past and are trying to deal with their own illness as well as their

child's.

Many of these news articles discuss depression and medication.

Another causative factor? What matters most is that this issue not

divide the autism community as we all need support from each other.

> >

> > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

> >

> >

> > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love,

> > Say Sisters

> >

> > By andra Wood

> > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

> >

> > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-year-

> old

> > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

> > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in April

> two

> > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them falling

> > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

> > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just as

> the

> > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

> public

> > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that had.

> > " She was an independent, proud and private person. was the

> focus

> > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without him I

> > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had the

> > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope with. And

> > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

> > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

> increasingly

> > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease him

> > about the way he spoke.

> > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

> passed

> > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

> males, go

> > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to highlight

> > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would rather

> > she hadn't but she has. "

> > They said that they did not blame social services, although more

> could

> > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another family

> for

> > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always take

> the

> > anti-depressants prescribed.

> > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms Armand.

> > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was vulnerable and

> > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

> higher

> > risk. "

> > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

> ,

> > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In their

> > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

> said. " There's

> > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

> >

> > ----------------------

> >

> > comment:

> >

> > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

> were

> > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

> > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> wouldn't

> > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> >

> > -Lenny

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Being autistic or disabled does not give a parent an excuse on

violence but instead may show that having a disabled child is

causative for someone to become impaired, in thinking, feeling,

morals, ethics, etc. If anything, these deaths have brought another

scary reality to our autism community...could this happen to me?

*********

I agree!!!! All over on other boards everyone seems to be justifying

these murders. I can't justify them either. I agree with the

autie's, aspies and anyone else with ASD. Haven't these parents on

the boards seen the websites about not wanting to be cured, not

being a piece of the puzzle? These guys have feelings too and they

don't want to be discussed, prodded, poked at, cured, fried, or

anything else. They just want to be...and to feel sorry for the

parents who kill them is just wrong. As I've said before in

response to someone saying " There but for the grace of God go I " ,

not me - I don't go there. I do the best I can everyday and support

the parents and my family in Central NY State with all the time and

energy I have. I will continue to see the beauty in my son.

Sally Colletti, President

CNY ASA, Inc.

www.cnyasa.org

> > >

> > > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

> > >

> > >

> > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of

Love,

> > > Say Sisters

> > >

> > > By andra Wood

> > > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

> > >

> > > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-

year-

> > old

> > > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

> > > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in

April

> > two

> > > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them

falling

> > > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> > > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

> > > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just

as

> > the

> > > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

> > public

> > > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that

had.

> > > " She was an independent, proud and private person. was

the

> > focus

> > > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> > > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without

him I

> > > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had

the

> > > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope

with. And

> > > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

> > > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

> > increasingly

> > > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease

him

> > > about the way he spoke.

> > > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

> > passed

> > > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

> > males, go

> > > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to

highlight

> > > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would

rather

> > > she hadn't but she has. "

> > > They said that they did not blame social services, although

more

> > could

> > > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another

family

> > for

> > > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always

take

> > the

> > > anti-depressants prescribed.

> > > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms

Armand.

> > > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was

vulnerable and

> > > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

> > higher

> > > risk. "

> > > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

> > ,

> > > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In

their

> > > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

> > said. " There's

> > > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> > > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

> > >

> > > ----------------------

> > >

> > > comment:

> > >

> > > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if

there

> > were

> > > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may

never

> > > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> > wouldn't

> > > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> > >

> > > -Lenny

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

(Red hitchhikes and finds the stone under the tree in the field Andy

told him about; he finds the letter and the money Andy left for him)

Andy (voice-over): Dear Red, If you're reading this, you've gotten

out. And if you've come this far, maybe you're willing to come a

little further. You remember the name of the town, don't you? I could

use a good man to help me get my project on wheels. I'll keep an eye

out for you and the chessboard ready. Remember, Red. Hope is a good

thing, maybe the best of things and no good thing ever dies. I will be

hoping that this letter finds you, and finds you well. Your friend, Andy.

Red: Get busy living or get busy dying. That's goddamn right. For the

second time in my life, I'm guilty of committing a crime. Parole

violation. Course, I doubt they're going to throw up any road blocks

for that. Not for an old crook like me. I find I'm so excited I can

barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. I think it's the

excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long

journey whose conclusion is uncertain. I hope I can make it across the

border. I hope to see my friend and shake his hand. I hope the Pacific

is as blue as it has been in my dreams. I hope.

==============================

> > >

> > > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

> > >

> > >

> > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love,

> > > Say Sisters

> > >

> > > By andra Wood

> > > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

> > >

> > > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-year-

> > old

> > > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

> > > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in April

> > two

> > > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them falling

> > > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> > > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

> > > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just as

> > the

> > > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

> > public

> > > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that had.

> > > " She was an independent, proud and private person. was the

> > focus

> > > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> > > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without him I

> > > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had the

> > > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope with. And

> > > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

> > > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

> > increasingly

> > > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease him

> > > about the way he spoke.

> > > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

> > passed

> > > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

> > males, go

> > > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to highlight

> > > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would rather

> > > she hadn't but she has. "

> > > They said that they did not blame social services, although more

> > could

> > > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another family

> > for

> > > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always take

> > the

> > > anti-depressants prescribed.

> > > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms Armand.

> > > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was vulnerable and

> > > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

> > higher

> > > risk. "

> > > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

> > ,

> > > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In their

> > > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

> > said. " There's

> > > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> > > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

> > >

> > > ----------------------

> > >

> > > comment:

> > >

> > > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

> > were

> > > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

> > > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> > wouldn't

> > > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> > >

> > > -Lenny

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Not sure how you're agreeing with me as I don't agree with:

" Haven't these parents on

the boards seen the websites about not wanting to be cured, not

being a piece of the puzzle? These guys have feelings too and they

don't want to be discussed, prodded, poked at, cured, fried, or

anything else. They just want to be.. "

My daughter is severely ill with mercury toxicity and chronic viral

infections. Her immune system does not work...no one is going to tell

me that her MEDICAL condition should not be treated.

This is another issue entirely from what I was bringing up. That is

the ongoing ND- " ok to be autistic " being compared to the

mercury-induced/immune dysfunctional children coming in on the tsunami

of vaccine injury via thimerosal/mmr/live viruses.

Neither deserves harm or violence. Case closed.

> > > >

> > > > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of

> Love,

> > > > Say Sisters

> > > >

> > > > By andra Wood

> > > > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

> > > >

> > > > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-

> year-

> > > old

> > > > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

> > > > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in

> April

> > > two

> > > > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them

> falling

> > > > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> > > > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

> > > > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just

> as

> > > the

> > > > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

> > > public

> > > > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that

> had.

> > > > " She was an independent, proud and private person. was

> the

> > > focus

> > > > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> > > > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without

> him I

> > > > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had

> the

> > > > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope

> with. And

> > > > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

> > > > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

> > > increasingly

> > > > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease

> him

> > > > about the way he spoke.

> > > > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

> > > passed

> > > > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

> > > males, go

> > > > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to

> highlight

> > > > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would

> rather

> > > > she hadn't but she has. "

> > > > They said that they did not blame social services, although

> more

> > > could

> > > > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another

> family

> > > for

> > > > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always

> take

> > > the

> > > > anti-depressants prescribed.

> > > > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms

> Armand.

> > > > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was

> vulnerable and

> > > > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

> > > higher

> > > > risk. "

> > > > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

> > > ,

> > > > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In

> their

> > > > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

> > > said. " There's

> > > > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> > > > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------

> > > >

> > > > comment:

> > > >

> > > > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if

> there

> > > were

> > > > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may

> never

> > > > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> > > wouldn't

> > > > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> > > >

> > > > -Lenny

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I was agreeing with you that no one, regardless of disability or

not, deserves to be harmed, nor should the parents be pitied.

As for the groups of ASD individuals out there " who don't want to be

cured or not be called part of a puzzle " that was in reference to

the fact that autism is not something that a parent or caregiver can

justify killing their child for.

Hope this clears that up.

Sally

P.S. Aren't most of our kids mercury poisoned?

> > > > >

> > > > > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's

googlenews)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act

Of

> > Love,

> > > > > Say Sisters

> > > > >

> > > > > By andra Wood

> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

> > > > >

> > > > > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her

12-

> > year-

> > > > old

> > > > > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters

say.

> > > > > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber

in

> > April

> > > > two

> > > > > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them

> > falling

> > > > > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> > > > > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their

sister

> > > > > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered

just

> > as

> > > > the

> > > > > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to

raise

> > > > public

> > > > > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that

> > had.

> > > > > " She was an independent, proud and private person.

was

> > the

> > > > focus

> > > > > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> > > > > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him.

Without

> > him I

> > > > > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She

had

> > the

> > > > > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope

> > with. And

> > > > > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got

tired. "

> > > > > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

> > > > increasingly

> > > > > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would

tease

> > him

> > > > > about the way he spoke.

> > > > > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome,

which is

> > > > passed

> > > > > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to

2,000

> > > > males, go

> > > > > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to

> > highlight

> > > > > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We

would

> > rather

> > > > > she hadn't but she has. "

> > > > > They said that they did not blame social services,

although

> > more

> > > > could

> > > > > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with

another

> > family

> > > > for

> > > > > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not

always

> > take

> > > > the

> > > > > anti-depressants prescribed.

> > > > > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said

Ms

> > Armand.

> > > > > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was

> > vulnerable and

> > > > > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen

as

> > > > higher

> > > > > risk. "

> > > > > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father

figure to

> > > > ,

> > > > > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge.

In

> > their

> > > > > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

> > > > said. " There's

> > > > > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> > > > > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------

> > > > >

> > > > > comment:

> > > > >

> > > > > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if

> > there

> > > > were

> > > > > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this

may

> > never

> > > > > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy

probably

> > > > wouldn't

> > > > > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Lenny

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

....and off to Mexico he goes.

A great film...a great message...hope was what kept Andy going as he

dug slowly for years through that wall. Some gave up, but Andy gave

that hope to Red and that's the bond that helped them both.

> > > >

> > > > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of

Love,

> > > > Say Sisters

> > > >

> > > > By andra Wood

> > > > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

> > > >

> > > > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her

12-year-

> > > old

> > > > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

> > > > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in April

> > > two

> > > > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them falling

> > > > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

> > > > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

> > > > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just as

> > > the

> > > > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

> > > public

> > > > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that had.

> > > > " She was an independent, proud and private person. was the

> > > focus

> > > > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

> > > > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without him I

> > > > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had the

> > > > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope

with. And

> > > > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

> > > > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

> > > increasingly

> > > > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease him

> > > > about the way he spoke.

> > > > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

> > > passed

> > > > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

> > > males, go

> > > > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to

highlight

> > > > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would

rather

> > > > she hadn't but she has. "

> > > > They said that they did not blame social services, although more

> > > could

> > > > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another

family

> > > for

> > > > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always

take

> > > the

> > > > anti-depressants prescribed.

> > > > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms

Armand.

> > > > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was

vulnerable and

> > > > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

> > > higher

> > > > risk. "

> > > > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

> > > ,

> > > > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In their

> > > > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

> > > said. " There's

> > > > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

> > > > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------

> > > >

> > > > comment:

> > > >

> > > > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

> > > were

> > > > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

> > > > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> > > wouldn't

> > > > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> > > >

> > > > -Lenny

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Our children cause us as parents to experence cutting pain, deeper

joy and a clarity most will not know. But yet we do not have the

time to waste being overly polite. Most of us are stronger mentally

because we have been thru the fire. Most of us have known extreme

aloneness and yes moments that it almost hurt too much. Times that

we almost forgot that this too will pass. A few prayers could and

should be said for each one of us.

>

> --I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate on --

well...

> where the debate went last time.

> This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.

>

> What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only

way out.

> jenny

> ------------

> comment:

>

> It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

were

> enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

> had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

wouldn't

> be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

>

> -Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

>>>What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only way out.

A very lost world, indeed.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Re: OT: Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love

--I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate on --well... where the debate went last time.This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only way out.jenny------------comment:It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there wereenough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may neverhad to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably wouldn'tbe austistic and drowned if not for pharma.-Lenny

[Guest guest]

It also helps to stop feeling sorry for one's self.

Re: OT: Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love

Our children cause us as parents to experence cutting pain, deeper joy and a clarity most will not know. But yet we do not have the time to waste being overly polite. Most of us are stronger mentally because we have been thru the fire. Most of us have known extreme aloneness and yes moments that it almost hurt too much. Times that we almost forgot that this too will pass. A few prayers could and should be said for each one of us.>> --I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate on --well... > where the debate went last time.> This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.> > What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only way out.> jenny> ------------> comment:> > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there were> enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never> had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably wouldn't> be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.> > -Lenny>

[Guest guest]

Okay now that I've calmed down about the 3 murders in a week - I

think that we should all call the mothers/parents we each know who

seems overwhelmed by it all and give them support. There always

seems one who is more frazzled than the others at our meetings. Go

on TalkAutism and support those who post on help wanted section. I

guess we've all learned that waiting for the government or anyone in

the " higher offices " to help out is not going to happen,we need to

do this ourselves.

I guess I should have said instead " I'm not going there for the

grace of god and I won't you let you cut in front of me either "

> >

> > --I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate

on --

> well...

> > where the debate went last time.

> > This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.

> >

> > What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the

only

> way out.

> > jenny

> > ------------

> > comment:

> >

> > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

> were

> > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may

never

> > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> wouldn't

> > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> >

> > -Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well said! Thank you for this message.

And the government won't do it for us. We need to do it for ourselves.

We need to set up our own supports.

On May 23, 2006, at 12:10 AM, Sally Colletti wrote:

>

>

>

> Okay now that I've calmed down about the 3 murders in a week - I

> think that we should all call the mothers/parents we each know who

> seems overwhelmed by it all and give them support. There always

> seems one who is more frazzled than the others at our meetings. Go

> on TalkAutism and support those who post on help wanted section. I

> guess we've all learned that waiting for the government or anyone in

> the " higher offices " to help out is not going to happen,we need to

> do this ourselves.

> I guess I should have said instead " I'm not going there for the

> grace of god and I won't you let you cut in front of me either "

>

>

>>>

>>> --I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate

> on --

>> well...

>>> where the debate went last time.

>>> This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.

>>>

>>> What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the

> only

>> way out.

>>> jenny

>>> ------------

>>> comment:

>>>

>>> It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

>> were

>>> enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may

> never

>>> had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

>> wouldn't

>>> be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

>>>

>>> -Lenny

>>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Times that we almost forgot that this too will pass. A few prayers could and should be said for each one of us...................................................... That could help all of us! Today, we found out that our oldest son (who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in Grade 8, wrongly I believe because it could have been mercury toxicity), was accepted into his first choice of university programs. I am so happy for him, especially since he has worked so hard and seems to be the only person in the family who is capable of studying for hours on end. Aasa goldyer1 <goldyer1@...> wrote: Our children cause us as parents to experence cutting pain, deeper joy and a clarity most will not know. But yet we do not have

the time to waste being overly polite. Most of us are stronger mentally because we have been thru the fire. Most of us have known extreme aloneness and yes moments that it almost hurt too much. Times that we almost forgot that this too will pass. A few prayers could and should be said for each one of us.>> --I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate on --well... > where the debate went last time.> This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.> > What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only way out.> jenny> ------------> comment:> > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there were> enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never> had to happen. I have to blame

Pharma, too. The boy probably wouldn't> be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.> > -Lenny>

[Guest guest]

Aasa,

That is such great news! So happy for you and your family!

> >

> > --I think this should be our focus, instead of another debate on --

> well...

> > where the debate went last time.

> > This is three in one week now? or are some of these old stories.

> >

> > What kind of world do we live in when parents see this as the only

> way out.

> > jenny

> > ------------

> > comment:

> >

> > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if there

> were

> > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may never

> > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

> wouldn't

> > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

> >

> > -Lenny

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-snip-

>

> Kids are being killed/abused in many families around the world.

> Autistic or not does not change that fact. They are SICK individuals

> and making sense of it is impossible. Justifying it is crazy.

> Violence towards any child or adult from a

> guardian/caregiver/teacher/relative is NEVER ok.

We are in agreement here. I too, think this point needs to be made

explicit, and I am glad to hear others say it. If it takes a little

sarcasm or a little dividing to get there, then so be it. BTW, in

response to your tone, which appears to me to be a bit defensive, know

that none of this has been directed at you personally by me. I regret

if you have taken things that way. But if you haven't, then that's good.

Lenny

[Guest guest]

Geesh, who among us hasn't felt overwhelmed by it all? Just this past

Sunday at church I felt so overwhelmed I didn't think I could take it.

1 hr later I felt fine. I mean, who among us doesn't have this happen?

I believe the mother who smothered her 3 yr old was reported by many

as one who did not seem overwhelmed. I can tell you no one knows when

I'm overwhelmed. I don't know when others are, unless they're open

enough to discuss it.

I think you have a great idea, I just don't think we know who those

parents are, is all.

Debi

- In EOHarm , " Sally Colletti " <rainmanmama@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Okay now that I've calmed down about the 3 murders in a week - I

> think that we should all call the mothers/parents we each know who

> seems overwhelmed by it all and give them support. There always

> seems one who is more frazzled than the others at our meetings. Go

> on TalkAutism and support those who post on help wanted section. I

> guess we've all learned that waiting for the government or anyone in

> the " higher offices " to help out is not going to happen,we need to

> do this ourselves.

> I guess I should have said instead " I'm not going there for the

> grace of god and I won't you let you cut in front of me either "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

You didn't convince me of anything and I personally don't need sarcasm

or a division to make my point.

Also, I am not being defensive. I have no reason to defend. My

response was in direct proportion to my frustration on what appears to

be lots of anger. We agree that these are horrific deaths that never

should have happened, but our responses and emotions are completely

different.

Let's just leave it at that.

>

> -snip-

> >

> > Kids are being killed/abused in many families around the world.

> > Autistic or not does not change that fact. They are SICK individuals

> > and making sense of it is impossible. Justifying it is crazy.

> > Violence towards any child or adult from a

> > guardian/caregiver/teacher/relative is NEVER ok.

>

> We are in agreement here. I too, think this point needs to be made

> explicit, and I am glad to hear others say it. If it takes a little

> sarcasm or a little dividing to get there, then so be it. BTW, in

> response to your tone, which appears to me to be a bit defensive, know

> that none of this has been directed at you personally by me. I regret

> if you have taken things that way. But if you haven't, then that's good.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

OK, so you're not being defensive. But I see no reason for you

to be so unfriendly. I have not attacked you or your style.

I have finally managed to put together an essay that pulls together

the points I want to make about all this business. This will appear in

Tuesday's SAR. The exchange on the EOHarm list has been enormously

useful in helping me sort out my thoughts, your posts included. The

point is not to convince you of anything except that I take serious

matters seriously and my purpose is not to piss you off or anyone else.

Lenny

COMMENTARY

Autistic Children Murdered – Outrage vs. Sympathy

I find recent events about the murder and abuse of children with

autism enormously sad. I can't seem to grow a thick enough skin every

time one pops up in the news. I have been struggling with trying to

find a response that does justice to these situations, and I don't

think I've been doing such a good job of it because the subject hurts so.

But I'm going to keep trying because I believe the right balance

of message needs to expressed that calls for the right mix of

compassion and justice. There needs to be both expression of moral

outrage, and a call for compassion for families trapped in the hell

that autism often brings them.

Yes, it would be better for all parents to have better services

for their ASD children. I have spent the last ten years volunteering

my time and life full time to make that happen on many different

levels. Advocates are doing much to directly address the services

problem.

Over the last ten years the SAR has helped advocates from

California to New York to push for laws that make the insurance

companies cover medical expenses associated with autism. These

efforts have been met with some success. Right now, momentum is

building in NY for such changes. A-CHAMP, the political group for

autism made up of parents, has at least philosophically decided to

continue to put efforts in these directions for all the states, and on

the federal level.

But when a child is killed there more is involved here than a

debate over the proper level of support services families deserve to

expect.

The first and foremost response to the news of such horrible

things of a child being so destroyed should be moral outrage. The

first reaction should not be " oh poor mom, if she only had better

services. . . " The primary cause of death of that girl, and too many

others like her, was not lack of services. To either say or imply so

is the saddest of distortions -- and such sentiments helps shift

responsibility for these acts away from those who perpetrate them. An

abstract concept about levels of service did not put a plastic bag

over the head of little to smother her -- a real human being did

so. We should not condemn the mother, she is innocent until proven

guilty. But we should condemn the act of murder.

We want every stressed out, depressed, grieving parent

contemplating taking a similar route -- and I know they are out there

-- to hear it loud and clear from the community that it is WRONG

WRONG WRONG! to do no matter what the circumstances, and they should

not be in the least bit enabled by our expressions of sympathy after

the fact for others who have done so. It does not have to be a

contradiction to condemned that which is wrong, and to also muster the

compassion of the community to help all those who are living to close

to the edge of autistic hell -- so that it will not happen again.

There needs to be a balanced reaction to such events. What I

cannot understand is where is the sense of outrage for such acts? All

I have heard from community leaders from Illinois is a rush to exploit

the girl's death to push for better services. Without the due

outrage, this comes off sounding little more than " crocodile tears "

and exploitation of parent " secret " fears and guilt for thinking the

same -- it is no secret that all human beings sometimes have homicidal

fantasies.

When hurricane Katrina destroyed so many lives and homes, we were

able to find it in our hearts to show support and compassion for the

victims and many gave their time and money to help. We were also able

to express our outrage that they were double victimized by the

negligence of government. Both reactions are appropriate -- and for

both situations. Why don't I hear any " leaders " from Illinois mad

about what happened to ? Where is the passion for what happened

to her? I need to hear it out loud so the due sympathy rings not so

hollow. – Lenny Schafer

>

> Lenny,

>

> You didn't convince me of anything and I personally don't need sarcasm

> or a division to make my point.

>

> Also, I am not being defensive. I have no reason to defend. My

> response was in direct proportion to my frustration on what appears to

> be lots of anger. We agree that these are horrific deaths that never

> should have happened, but our responses and emotions are completely

> different.

>

> Let's just leave it at that.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is only one small step from saying this was an act of love to saying that

maybe these kids would be happier if they were not on earth--shades of

Hitler???

Barb

Re: OT: Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son

Was Act Of Love

> Being autistic or disabled does not give a parent an excuse on

> violence but instead may show that having a disabled child is

> causative for someone to become impaired, in thinking, feeling,

> morals, ethics, etc. If anything, these deaths have brought another

> scary reality to our autism community...could this happen to me?

> *********

> I agree!!!! All over on other boards everyone seems to be justifying

> these murders. I can't justify them either. I agree with the

> autie's, aspies and anyone else with ASD. Haven't these parents on

> the boards seen the websites about not wanting to be cured, not

> being a piece of the puzzle? These guys have feelings too and they

> don't want to be discussed, prodded, poked at, cured, fried, or

> anything else. They just want to be...and to feel sorry for the

> parents who kill them is just wrong. As I've said before in

> response to someone saying " There but for the grace of God go I " ,

> not me - I don't go there. I do the best I can everyday and support

> the parents and my family in Central NY State with all the time and

> energy I have. I will continue to see the beauty in my son.

> Sally Colletti, President

> CNY ASA, Inc.

> www.cnyasa.org

>

>

>> > >

>> > > (The three OT posts I made here are all in today's googlenews)

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of

> Love,

>> > > Say Sisters

>> > >

>> > > By andra Wood

>> > > http://tinyurl.com/pet4u

>> > >

>> > > A MOTHER'S decision to leap off the Humber Bridge with her 12-

> year-

>> > old

>> > > autistic son was an " act of love " , her grieving sisters say.

>> > > Alison Davies's body was recovered from the River Humber in

> April

>> > two

>> > > weeks after that of her son . CCTV cameras caught them

> falling

>> > > from the bridge eight seconds apart.

>> > > Cook and Armand spoke lovingly of their sister

>> > > yesterday, saying they did not want her to be remembered just

> as

>> > the

>> > > " woman on the bridge " . They also said they would try to raise

>> > public

>> > > awareness about Fragile X syndrome - the condition that

> had.

>> > > " She was an independent, proud and private person. was

> the

>> > focus

>> > > and purpose of her life, " said Mrs Cook, of Stockport.

>> > > " She had a deep, abiding and consuming love for him. Without

> him I

>> > > don't think she would have lived as long as she did. She had

> the

>> > > double whammy of depression and 's disability to cope

> with. And

>> > > she was a single parent. She fought battles and she got tired. "

>> > > At 12 had a mental age of seven and life was getting

>> > increasingly

>> > > difficult as he was picked on by bigger boys, who would tease

> him

>> > > about the way he spoke.

>> > > The sisters believe many cases of Fragile X syndrome, which is

>> > passed

>> > > from mother to child and affects about one in 1,000 to 2,000

>> > males, go

>> > > undiagnosed. Ms Cook said: " It is our duty as a family to

> highlight

>> > > this illness. Alison has given us this opportunity. We would

> rather

>> > > she hadn't but she has. "

>> > > They said that they did not blame social services, although

> more

>> > could

>> > > have been done. Respite care had been arranged with another

> family

>> > for

>> > > but that had not worked out and Ms Davies did not always

> take

>> > the

>> > > anti-depressants prescribed.

>> > > " The help she got from social services was patchy, " said Ms

> Armand.

>> > > " There was no one to bounce her worries off. She was

> vulnerable and

>> > > needed proper counselling. I am surprised she was not seen as

>> > higher

>> > > risk. "

>> > > Of the family only Mrs Cook's husband Andy, a father figure to

>> > ,

>> > > has seen all the CCTV footage of the pair on the bridge. In

> their

>> > > final moments they looked " like two people playing " , he

>> > said. " There's

>> > > a sense of peace that she had made a momentous decision. "

>> > > An inquiry into the deaths will take place later this year.

>> > >

>> > > ----------------------

>> > >

>> > > comment:

>> > >

>> > > It is heartbreaking to read of these killings. Perhaps if

> there

>> > were

>> > > enough services for this poor, stressed out parent, this may

> never

>> > > had to happen. I have to blame Pharma, too. The boy probably

>> > wouldn't

>> > > be austistic and drowned if not for pharma.

>> > >

>> > > -Lenny

>> > >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

I am trying to just " let it go " as we are all different in our styles,

emotions, and responses to crisis, and that is what these terrible

tragedies have brought up.

I am not being unfriendly though it's interesting that you feel that

way. I could say the same about your " tone " but it is your style.

As I had said, the sarcasm does not help me in hearing the message as

it distorts it.

Your SAR essay is good, in that it tries to explain something that we

are all grappling with. We can all try to be more attentive to our

needs and those around us. Unfortunately, I don't think telling anyone

with mental illness that what they are doing is " wrong " , will fix it.

They are beyond that, and that is why reaching out to people before

they are " unreachable " is something that we all have become more aware

of right now.

As far as IL " leaders " , I have not heard one comment from them.

Hopefully this will be addressed at Autism One as there is a session

with them. What they do need to hear is that IL families do need more

support. We are something like # 45 out of the 50 states in autism

support/legislation. Will that stop abuse or death? One can only hope.

Again, we can all do the " agree to disagree " but compassion to each

other is key. You have mine.

> >

> > Lenny,

> >

> > You didn't convince me of anything and I personally don't need sarcasm

> > or a division to make my point.

> >

> > Also, I am not being defensive. I have no reason to defend. My

> > response was in direct proportion to my frustration on what appears to

> > be lots of anger. We agree that these are horrific deaths that never

> > should have happened, but our responses and emotions are completely

> > different.

> >

> > Let's just leave it at that.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This commentary is as balanced as anything I have seen yet. Thanks,

Lenny.

Wade Rankin

http://injectingsense.blogspot.com

> >

> > Lenny,

> >

> > You didn't convince me of anything and I personally don't need sarcasm

> > or a division to make my point.

> >

> > Also, I am not being defensive. I have no reason to defend. My

> > response was in direct proportion to my frustration on what appears to

> > be lots of anger. We agree that these are horrific deaths that never

> > should have happened, but our responses and emotions are completely

> > different.

> >

> > Let's just leave it at that.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

We all need a level of basic instruction.

Pajama dancing Go-Daddies are hip. Torching your kid is stupid, hateful and wrong.

How people can be so screwed up to call murder an act of love is a great evil. Try fear on for size.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Re: OT: Mother's Bridge Death Plunge With Her Autistic Son Was Act Of Love

I get pissed off by patronizing tone and emotional blackmail. I get pissed off when lack of EXPRESSED sympathy is construed as a lack of sympathy. Some people are culturally conditioned to mourn quietly, rather than publicly. Believe me, in my mind I replay the dying victims' last horrible moments during strangulation, drowning, or burning to death. Expressing those thoughts on a listserv adds another layer of misery to already-challenging lives; also one person's elegy may be another one's snuff porn. Without a psychiatric degree or the gift of discernment, the rest of us have little insight into killer mentalities. The hopeless, out-of-control madness I've posted about previously is somewhat explained in movies like "The Hours" or "Sophie's Choice," or reading books such as Styron's "Darkness Visible." Trickier, though, is the pathological narcissism in which the individual dispassionately eliminates problematic people. These people are a danger to others rather than themselves. They belong in jail or locked in psychiatric institutions. (I feel that this callousness was exhibited by Sen. Bill Frist during his college days when he adopted cats simply to kill and dissect them.)Throughout this raw dialogue on children's tragic deaths, some have fudged the issues by misconstruing statements and dodging others, indulging pet grievances and exposing personal baggage. I guess that's to be expected.Keep in mind that there are many ways to convey to individuals and society that murdering anyone, regardless of ability, is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Some choose loud and public, while others choose quiet and personal.- Hokkanen> >> > Lenny,> > > > You didn't convince me of anything and I personally don't need sarcasm> > or a division to make my point. > > > > Also, I am not being defensive. I have no reason to defend. My> > response was in direct proportion to my frustration on what appears to> > be lots of anger. We agree that these are horrific deaths that never> > should have happened, but our responses and emotions are completely> > different.> > > > Let's just leave it at that.> > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Lenny:

That commentary was excellent and should be sent to all the media in

the cities where these occured. Thanks for wrapping it up so

eloquently and succinctly. You can speak on my behalf anytime!

Sally

> > >

> > > Lenny,

> > >

> > > You didn't convince me of anything and I personally don't need

sarcasm

> > > or a division to make my point.

> > >

> > > Also, I am not being defensive. I have no reason to defend.

My

> > > response was in direct proportion to my frustration on what

appears to

> > > be lots of anger. We agree that these are horrific deaths that

never

> > > should have happened, but our responses and emotions are

completely

> > > different.

> > >

> > > Let's just leave it at that.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>