Re: Warning: controversial opinion

[Guest guest]

Err... yes , and no doubt the 40-odd million of your compatriots

who have no health insurance would agree with you.

I wouldn't mind betting that those 40 million, ESPECIALLY the ones who

have serious health problems like SMA, would very much appreciate

universal healthcare if given the choice.

Don't get me wrong, the NHS is far from perfect. No system is. The

system where I live, Japan, is better in many ways (and - SHOCK

HORROR! - universal). But you'll find the majority of Brits are very

proud of their health SERVICE and wouldn't swap it for the US

healthcare INDUSTRY for all the tea in China.

,

Tokyo

2007/8/24, <way2square@...>:

>

>

> Here's yet another story about a girl with SMA in the UK whose life is

> made worse by the long wait for service in the atrocious government-

> run healthcare system in that country.

>

> http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/local-news/20-hours-on--

> operating.3140744.jp

>

> Every time I read one of these stories, it makes me angry. I am so

> grateful that we live in the US. I can't believe that there are

> people who actually have a good chance of becoming President who want

> to bring this kind of awful health system to the USA! As a parent of

> a disabled child, the thought of so-called universal health care

> scares me more than anything else.

>

> My rant for the day¡Ä

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes i totally agree john. however i cant access that url and i am very

interested as i used to live in that area, so if anyone can get to it please

let me know.

cheers

linda

On 8/24/07, Senior <jsenior@...> wrote:

>

> Err... yes , and no doubt the 40-odd million of your compatriots

> who have no health insurance would agree with you.

>

> I wouldn't mind betting that those 40 million, ESPECIALLY the ones who

> have serious health problems like SMA, would very much appreciate

> universal healthcare if given the choice.

>

> Don't get me wrong, the NHS is far from perfect. No system is. The

> system where I live, Japan, is better in many ways (and - SHOCK

> HORROR! - universal). But you'll find the majority of Brits are very

> proud of their health SERVICE and wouldn't swap it for the US

> healthcare INDUSTRY for all the tea in China.

>

> ,

> Tokyo

>

> 2007/8/24, <way2square@... <way2square%40>>:

> >

> >

> > Here's yet another story about a girl with SMA in the UK whose life is

> > made worse by the long wait for service in the atrocious government-

> > run healthcare system in that country.

> >

> > http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/local-news/20-hours-on--

> > operating.3140744.jp

> >

> > Every time I read one of these stories, it makes me angry. I am so

> > grateful that we live in the US. I can't believe that there are

> > people who actually have a good chance of becoming President who want

> > to bring this kind of awful health system to the USA! As a parent of

> > a disabled child, the thought of so-called universal health care

> > scares me more than anything else.

> >

> > My rant for the day…

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

, here's the text of the story below. It's a sad tale about

something that shouldn't happen in a properly funded and efficient

NHS, but to use it to attack the whole concept of universal health

provision is . . . well, let's politely say " rather silly " .

The fact is that this girl will get an operation, albeit much later

than she should have, and no matter how rich or poor her parents are

they won't have to worry about how much it costs or if it will be

covered by insurance. That whole sordid can of worms is anathema to

British citizens and those of most other developed countries, which

might explain why the USA ranks 37th in the WHO's health-system league

table, while the UK is 18th (nothing to be proud of, admittedly) and

the top 10 is dominated by universal, government-funded systems.

Cheers,

-------

20 hours on operating Table

A LITTLE girl whose vital operation was cancelled at the last minute

now faces 20 hours of life-saving surgery because her condition has

worsened. , nine, from Pellon, Halifax, was due to

undergo major surgery last month to correct her curving spine, which

is putting pressure on her heart.

But the op was cancelled at the last minute because of an emergency

case. Now she faces more serious surgery usually reserved for adults

because her condition has deteriorated. She will spend her 10th

birthday and Christmas in hospital recovering from the operation, due

to take place in December.

's mum, Ellie on, said: " It's just been a nightmare. The

doctors say the operation is urgent. has been an absolute

star. She's been fantastic, really brave. " The youngster was diagnosed

with the muscle-wasting disease spinal muscular atrophy as a baby. The

genenetic condition means , a pupil at Withinfields Primary

School, Southowram, cannot walk and has a curved spine.

Surgeons at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital will fuse her spine

to a rod to straighten it. The operation is likely to last more than

20 hours. Unlike the procedure she would have undergone before, this

surgery is more serious and means will not grow any taller

than she already is.

Doctors say they want to operate as soon as possible and have

scheduled surgery for December. That means it's likely will

spend her 10th birthday, Christmas and New Year in hospital. She will

be away from her siblings Xander, three, Kayleigh, two, and Lucas,

one. " We're just taking it one day at a time, " said Ellie. " You've

just got to pick yourself up and carry on. is my baby and I

love her to bits. I wouldn't want to lose her. She's everything. "

Speaking about 's cancelled op, a spokesman for Central

Manchester and NHS Trust said: " Our patients are asked to attend a

preoperative clinic before an operation date is confirmed. We would be

happy to discuss this further with the family if they would like to

contact us. "

[Guest guest]

I am not trying to start an argument, but, frankly, the much

repeated statistic of non-insured citizens in the USA is a canard.

Talk to anyone who actually works in US healthcare, and they will

confirm that no one... that's right NO ONE... in the USA is turned

away from an operation they need to stay alive. Even if your not a

US citizen and somehow walk into a US hospital needing heart

surgury, you will get it within a week. That doesn't happen in any

other country!

More people die in Britain waiting in queu for an operation than die

in the US because they were refused treatment due to inability to

pay.

Secondly, the misleading statistic you mentioned is only s snapshot

in time. The majority of people without health insurance at this

point in time will have sufficient coverage in 6 months to a year.

There is only a tiny fraction of US citizens who have no coverage

continually over several years or more. And of those, most are in

that situation by choice.

We have two friends who are adults with SMA. One is able to work

(in a doctors office!) and pays for her own health insurance. The

other is uanable to work and qualifies for Medicare from her

parent's work record. One of their complaints is the large number

of Canadian citizens who come here paying cash for health services

they cannot get in their own country.

>

> Err... yes , and no doubt the 40-odd million of your

compatriots

> who have no health insurance would agree with you.

>

> I wouldn't mind betting that those 40 million, ESPECIALLY the ones

who

> have serious health problems like SMA, would very much appreciate

> universal healthcare if given the choice.

>

> Don't get me wrong, the NHS is far from perfect. No system is. The

> system where I live, Japan, is better in many ways (and - SHOCK

> HORROR! - universal). But you'll find the majority of Brits are

very

> proud of their health SERVICE and wouldn't swap it for the US

> healthcare INDUSTRY for all the tea in China.

>

> ,

> Tokyo

>

>

>

>

>

> 2007/8/24, <way2square@...>:

> >

> >

> > Here's yet another story about a girl with SMA in the UK whose

life is

> > made worse by the long wait for service in the atrocious

government-

> > run healthcare system in that country.

> >

> > http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/local-news/20-hours-on--

> > operating.3140744.jp

> >

> > Every time I read one of these stories, it makes me angry. I am

so

> > grateful that we live in the US. I can't believe that there are

> > people who actually have a good chance of becoming President

who want

> > to bring this kind of awful health system to the USA! As a

parent of

> > a disabled child, the thought of so-called universal health care

> > scares me more than anything else.

> >

> > My rant for the day¡Ä

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

The World Health Organization (WHO) is primarily focued on building

public health systems supported by governments. Their job is trying

get governments (especially 3rd world governments) to pay more for

healthcare. Every poistion they take is knee-jerk against private

industry being involved in healthcare delivery even in situations

where everyone agrees it is the best option. I am not criticisng

them, but that's their objective. So, the WHO rating is completely

meaningless to consumers looking to find the best health care.

which

> might explain why the USA ranks 37th in the WHO's health-system

league

> table, while the UK is 18th (nothing to be proud of, admittedly)

and

> the top 10 is dominated by universal, government-funded systems.

[Guest guest]

Not sure about everyone else, but I waited over a year to get my

spinal fusion here in the United States at ages 12 - 14. My father

made " too much money " one summer (pulling in just over $30k for a

family of six), and Medicaid cut me off. My father's health insurance

company wouldn't cover my surgery because it was a pre-existing

condition. In order to get my Medicaid back so I could get my surgery,

my father needed to lose his job, and that's exactly what he did.

I'm so glad the American health care system takes care of us in such

an efficient and loving manner that I didn't need to wait an entire

six months for my free operation.

<3Kendra

>

> Here's yet another story about a girl with SMA in the UK whose life is

> made worse by the long wait for service in the atrocious government-

> run healthcare system in that country.

>

> http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/local-news/20-hours-on--

> operating.3140744.jp

>

> Every time I read one of these stories, it makes me angry. I am so

> grateful that we live in the US. I can't believe that there are

> people who actually have a good chance of becoming President who want

> to bring this kind of awful health system to the USA! As a parent of

> a disabled child, the thought of so-called universal health care

> scares me more than anything else.

>

> My rant for the day…

>

>

[Guest guest]

There will never be a system that will make everyone happy. Just 1 no

and someone won't like it. I pay a ton for health care and doc visits

and meds ect and also for my kids. I also know it's life and I am

happy I don't have to pay cash for everything and am very thankful

that our government has programs to help flawed or not.

>

> I think it's clear from the comments that everyone agrees that every

> system has its merits (except apparently , who thinks the US

> system is perfect - which I agree is probably true if you happen to

be

> rich).

>

> No-one in Britain would claim the NHS is perfect, but the very idea

of

> making billions in profits from treating sick people is abhorrent to

> the majority of people around the world. I suspect a large number of

> Americans feel the same, because whatever claims, there are

> countless stories of insurance companies denying coverage for all

> kinds of treatment. Any for-profit system gives private insurers an

> incentive to deny coverage, so it's a fundamental flaw inherent in

the

> system.

>

> As for the WHO, it's a highly respected organization that has done a

> huge amount to improve healthcare around the world. It's sad how

some

> Americans think the UN and all its bodies (including the WHO) are

> inherently evil, but that's the way it is and no amount of arguing

is

> going to change their minds so I'll leave it at that.

>

> Cheers,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, , we all realize that you have a very low tolerance and

even hostility toward people who have opinions different than yours.

You've repeated that enough here. But, putting that aside a moment,

my original comment was that I am grateful that the system in my

country works for me. The most atrocious health care stories

consistently come from countries other than the US. The fact that a

baby with SMA in Britain is denied life saving care because some

bureaucrat detemines her life is not worth saving speaks volumes

about how they prefer " efficiency " over qaulity of care. Even in

your Japan where the concept of charity is nonexistent, the push

toward " efficiency " trumps saving lives. I agree you can make many

criticisms of US healthcare that are on point. But, in a world of

flawed systems my experience is that it has been the best. That's

just my opinion.

I apologize to everyone else for prolonging a pointless discussion,

and I hope that you, , will also apologize for sarcastically

publicly attacking others with whom you don't agree. After all, it's

just some persons opinion.

>

> I think it's clear from the comments that everyone agrees that every

> system has its merits (except apparently , who thinks the US

> system is perfect - which I agree is probably true if you happen to

be

> rich).

>

> No-one in Britain would claim the NHS is perfect, but the very idea

of

> making billions in profits from treating sick people is abhorrent to

> the majority of people around the world. I suspect a large number of

> Americans feel the same, because whatever claims, there are

> countless stories of insurance companies denying coverage for all

> kinds of treatment. Any for-profit system gives private insurers an

> incentive to deny coverage, so it's a fundamental flaw inherent in

the

> system.

>

> As for the WHO, it's a highly respected organization that has done a

> huge amount to improve healthcare around the world. It's sad how

some

> Americans think the UN and all its bodies (including the WHO) are

> inherently evil, but that's the way it is and no amount of arguing

is

> going to change their minds so I'll leave it at that.

>

> Cheers,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow! An email from that isn't flaming someone or dripping with

mean-spirited sarcasm. I'm honestly impressed. I guess you are

capable of adult conversation.

As for my controversial comments, how is it I'm unique? To use Nick

as good example, I believe his posts are quite bombastic and

provocative. I truly respect Nick for his well thought opinions even

though I don't always agree. But, I don't flame him like you do me.

, I think it's rather telling that you refuse to apologize to the

group for your behavior. Is it really that you don't know the

difference between voicing your opinion and shouting people down, or

do you have some other motive?

" Cheers "

>

> No, , it's you that has low tolerance of opinions different

than

> yours. I have not claimed that the NHS or the Japanese system are

the

> best. I think every system has its merits, but I have a fundamental

> problem with the concept of profiting from health provision.

>

> It was you who started this thread by using the story of an

> unfortunate case in the UK to score political points in the US.

>

> For the record, the most atrocious health care stories come from

> developing countries - a delayed operation in the UK or even US

> citizens being denied care left, right, and center is nothing

compared

> with millions dying from preventable diseases like malaria and AIDS.

>

> I agree with you (YES REALLY!) about life-saving care for SMA

> Type 1 kids in Britain. I was shocked to learn that tracheotomies

are

> not offered as a general rule in Britain; here in Japan they are

very

> common and even some weak Type 1s are beating the " 2-year " rule by a

> long way (as I believe is the case in the US, at least for families

> with good insurance).

>

> I'm not going to apologize for stating my opinion, especially given

> that it wasn't me that started this thread with a highly provocative

> and partisan rant. The only person's opinions I have criticized are

> yours, , because I happen to think you're wrong. Your

experience

> of US healthcare is obviously great - better than my experiences

> anywhere, from what I can tell - but what about Nick's friends? It's

> that huge inequality in health provision that shocks people outside

> the US. Healthcare should be a right enjoyed by all, not a luxury

> enjoyed only by those who can afford it.

>

> ,

> Tokyo, " My " Japan (apparently)

>

>

>

> 2007/8/25, <way2square@...>:

> >

> > Okay, , we all realize that you have a very low tolerance and

> > even hostility toward people who have opinions different than

yours.

> > You've repeated that enough here. But, putting that aside a

moment,

> > my original comment was that I am grateful that the system in my

> > country works for me. The most atrocious health care stories

> > consistently come from countries other than the US. The fact

that a

> > baby with SMA in Britain is denied life saving care because some

> > bureaucrat detemines her life is not worth saving speaks volumes

> > about how they prefer " efficiency " over qaulity of care. Even in

> > your Japan where the concept of charity is nonexistent, the push

> > toward " efficiency " trumps saving lives. I agree you can make

many

> > criticisms of US healthcare that are on point. But, in a world of

> > flawed systems my experience is that it has been the best. That's

> > just my opinion.

> >

> > I apologize to everyone else for prolonging a pointless

discussion,

> > and I hope that you, , will also apologize for sarcastically

> > publicly attacking others with whom you don't agree. After all,

it's

> > just some persons opinion.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

While I agree there are many many things that need change, health

care is a business weather private or government run. Just like we

have our own personal budget when the money is gone it's gone. If a

doctor couldn't make a good living then far less would become

doctors. Neither system could ever be perfect for everyone. I have

been in 2 major auto accidents and have been taken to surgery and my

life saved before they knew if I was poor or rich or if I had any

insurance. I also had to quit working a couple years ago for a while

and I got SSDI and was able to support myself and my family. I am

very thankful for this also. I think if any of us lived in the

Philippines and tried to get the help we need we would LOVE what we

have now.

Sure there are tons of problems and it kills people bc of it. I

worked in the Medical equipment field for several years and saw many

people walk into out store and give the medicare form to get a

scooter. The fact they can walk means they Fraud cost all of us. I am

also thankful for rich people as there tax monies go towards the

benefits we all need. I do wonder why yo never see someone say

Medicare or medicaid paid for medical services that saved my life or

paid for the equimpment I need. I thinkit's great people are trying

to get better care for allofus but atthe same time we should be

verythankful for what we have cause I think most of us wold be in

real trouble if we had to pay cash for what we need.

Terry

> >

> > Wow! An email from that isn't flaming someone or dripping

with

> > mean-spirited sarcasm. I'm honestly impressed. I guess you are

> > capable of adult conversation.

> >

> > As for my controversial comments, how is it I'm unique? To use

Nick

> > as good example, I believe his posts are quite bombastic and

> > provocative. I truly respect Nick for his well thought opinions

even

> > though I don't always agree. But, I don't flame him like you do

me.

> >

> > , I think it's rather telling that you refuse to apologize to

the

> > group for your behavior. Is it really that you don't know the

> > difference between voicing your opinion and shouting people down,

or

> > do you have some other motive?

> >

> > " Cheers "

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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