RE: A thought/question regarding religion & SMA

January 5, 2006

I ditto that! Hi Joy!

Simone

--- Joy <j0yeuxx@...> wrote:

> I was trying to stay out of this one because it is

> so very sensitive, but here goes me and my big

> mouth...

>

> Nick you have a great sense of humor here hehe

> " divine application " -love it.

>

> But I just wanted to say that G-d sees the whole

> picture that we don't because He is who He is, and

> so at the moment we might think of this disease as

> torture (and yeah I agree it is no picnic), but at

> the same time we can grow and learn and be a person

> used for His glory in some way that we might not

> understand to begin with. But when all is said and

> done we will look back and see ohhhhhh that is why I

> went through that, so this even greater thing (that

> we don't know about yet) could happen!

>

> He is not torturing us, He will get us through all

> of this if we trust Him to.

>

> oh yeah and just wanted to mention, if we never

> had anything " bad " happen we would never know what

> good is!

>

> Nick Dupree <nickdupree@...> wrote:

> PurplGurl3@... wrote:

>

> >My belief system tells me that God already decided

> this was right for me a

> >long time ago, and that I agreed to it

> >

>

> God gave you SMA but you got the choice to agree to

> have SMA? I'm

> baffled. I would've definitely checked the " No " box

> on the divine

> application form.

>

> But in all seriousness, I could never believe in an

> evil God that

> decides to give people SMA. If a loving God is above

> me, he would never

> torture people like that.

>

> Nick

>

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January 5, 2006

I haven't seen anyone being insulting. I thought this conversation was

surprisingly civil. But it was only a matter of time...

jondus@... wrote:

>e,

>

>I wouldn't worry about whether you're insulting or offending anyone's

>beliefs. The atheists and agnostics in this group don't seem to be

>concerned with insulting the beliefs of the believers in this

>discussion, so it doesn't seem as though that matters in this particular

>discussion. It's just an open discussion.

>

>Jay

>

January 5, 2006

Some of us don't believe the Bible is God's word and completely true. We

also don't quite understand how someone can think the Bible is proof of

anything. I am not trying to insult anyone who believes that. If thats

what you believe, that's great. Nothing is wrong with that. You probably

can't understand why we don't believe it. But it's not what I believe. I

hope you would agree nothing is wrong with that. But to me, and I think

to some others, the Bible isn't complete truth, so what it says about

who caused what isn't enough. Please don't assume people haven't read

the Bible because we contradict it. We disagree with it. How do you know

if we read it or not?

jondus@... wrote:

>We seem to have forgotten some of the original replies to this question.

>It's becoming obvious that many people (not all) have formed opinions

>regarding what the Bible says without actually reading it. God didn't

>give you SMA or any other disease, they are consequences to man's choice

>from the beginning. (I wouldn't have checked that box for Jordan

>either...and wouldn't have even gotten my pencil close to it.) In fact,

>the Bible is crystal clear that God didn't author sickness and disease.

>You need to blame the other guy that no one wants to believe in

>either...Satan...since he was the willful deceiver from the beginning.

>

>There is far more going on around us at all times than we can actually

>see with our eyes.

>

>Jay

>

January 5, 2006

We seem to have forgotten some of the original replies

to this question.

It's becoming obvious that many people (not all) have formed opinions regarding

what the Bible says without actually reading it.

7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but

considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? God didn't give you SMA or

any other disease, they are consequences to man's choice from the beginning.

2 12:15 And departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child

that Uriah's wife bare unto , and it was very sick.

2 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.

[This is but one of many instances of BibleGod personally smiting the innocent.]

(I wouldn't have checked that box for Jordan either...and wouldn't have even

gotten my pencil close to it.)

In fact, the Bible is crystal clear that God didn't author sickness and disease.

Amos 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

I the LORD do all these these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?

shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? You need to blame

the other guy that no one wants to believe in either...Satan...since he was the

willful deceiver from the beginning.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not

eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years:

and he died.

[bibleGod gets the credit for the first lie.] There is far more going on around

us at all times than we can actually see with our eyes.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto

his servants the prophets.

---

Jay, I do agree with a fair portion of what you are saying. It's just that the

Bible does not support our assertions very well. I, like you, do wish more

Christians would read the Bible. I also agree that the gods are not

responsible for creating disease. I think the reverse may be plausible though.

Disease is responsible (at least in part) for creating the gods.

~

January 5, 2006

The original question here as I remember was- is SMA caused by sin of

man? The question morphed to- did God cause it? I still don't think

so, but honestly, we really don't know. If things were clear, we

wouldn't be having a discussion. Having a reason would make

everything so much easier. And, btw, believing something is allowed

or ordained by God actually takes more strength than not, although

some clearly think that's a cop out.

How can you trust a God who allows something He could stop in His

power? Here's my experience.

About 7 years ago something personal happened that I considered

disastrous. It was caused by deliberate actions of some selfish

people. I could never call what they did good in any way, (lying,

cheating, etc)- it was wrong, and because of their actions, my life is

different. My life is much better. . . Had that not happened I KNOW

I would not be where I am today. Does that knowledge make what

happened easier to accept? Absolutely. Does it make their actions

any less wrong ? No. But out of something awful came good.

Therefore, I believe God allowed that to bring me something better.

Now I choose, in the dark times, when I don't understand, to still

trust Him.

A friend of mine tells the story of a parade. On the street we can

only see the section of the parade that is directly before us. But if

you go to the top of a tall building you see much more. Life is like

that. We know only what we can see, but God can see the beginning of

the parade and the end.

Simplistic? Maybe. But I believe. . . . : )

The existence of God will not be determined by Whether we believe or

not.

January 6, 2006

,

This is some interesting discussion. While I don't have all the

answers, I'll add some other perspective. Sorry this kind of long, but

it sort of needs to be.

I think we need to make sure we have all of these things in context, and

look at them in the bigger picture...not just looking at individual

verses...sometimes not even individual chapters or books because the

whole Bible fits together and supports itself. Missing the context can

give us a misunderstanding. You're right in one aspect...God can

definitely inflict illness on whomever he chooses. If He couldn't, He

wouldn't be God, and he wouldn't be omnipotent. However, that doesn't

mean that He was the originated of the CAUSE of illness and disease. He

designed that as a consequence to sin. Sin was a choice...just like it

is today...and the enabling of disease was an established consequence to

that original fall of man.

3:27: (the Baptist) answered and said, A man can receive

nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

19:11: Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against

me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me

unto thee hath the greater sin.

* So, God provides the ability and power for things to happen since

He's in control of it all...otherwise He wouldn't be God. He allowed

Satan to have the power to cause sin...and God enabled sickness and

death as a consequence to sin.

[bibleGod gets the credit for the first lie.] , I'm not sure what

you're referring to here, however, if you're inferring that God lied

because Adam didn't die that very day, then I think you've taken that

statement out of context. Got did not originally create man to die. In

fact, He created man to fellowship with Him forever. Prior to the fall,

Adam wasn't able to die. There was no death and sickness. That's why

Adam lived for 900 years. That's also why you see the life spans of

people progressively shrinking throughout the old testament...as disease

slowly gained its grip on mankind (look at those ages for yourself).

God was merely telling Adam that the day he sinned he would no longer

live forever...he was going to die.

* I'll give you an example of the context thing using the example you

sited in 2 :

2 12:15 And departed unto his house. And the LORD struck

the child that Uriah's wife bare unto , and it was very sick.

The context part is that this child was conceived in sin, major sin.

That certainly doesn't make it the babies fault, nor do I personally

like the idea that God placed that illness on the child, but it does

lend understanding to the circumstances that surround it. Deeper

exploration of the text shows us that the mother of this child was

Bathsheba, Uriah's wife, who committed adultery with. also

put Uriah on the front line purposely so he would be killed because he

wanted Bathsheba for his own wife. As a result, God was not going to

let go unpunished for his disobedience.

2 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD,

to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the

sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with

the sword of the children of Ammon.

2 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great

occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is

born unto thee shall surely die. ( prophesy)

While it's true that the baby was innocent, and I personally don't like

the idea of of the baby dying, the cause of death was a consequence of

's evil deeds according to the scripture.

2 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child

died.

* Amos 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and

create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I think you're actually referring to Isaiah 45:7. My Bible only has 9

chapters in the book of Amos, not 45, and that verse is actually in

Isaiah. At first it does sound like what you identified, but if you

research it a little more, you find that a combination of the context

and the translation of the original word brings more sense to it. That

original Hebrew word would actually be translated to " disaster " and not

" evil " in our modern language. This also makes sense when we look at

the context of chapter 45 because the verses surrounding it are talking

about God's creation (heavens and earth). So, God creates

" disaster " ...again a consequence of sin. (even though we don't like that

idea).

Funny thing is, it seems like we (me too) all want God to be what we

want Him to be, act like we want Him to act, respond like we want Him to

respond, and let us do, say, and be whatever we what. We don't like the

idea of having to be accountable to anyone for our actions, and the

thought of having to answer to someone for that someday is insulting to

us. Unfortunately, according to the Bible that's not the way it is.

Nor should it be. If God is God, He can do whatever He wants (whether

we like it or not)...otherwise He's not God. He doesn't need our

opinion to do what He wants to do.

Jay

Re: A thought/question regarding religion & SMA

We seem to have forgotten some of the original replies to this question.

It's becoming obvious that many people (not all) have formed opinions

regarding what the Bible says without actually reading it.

7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's

eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? God didn't

give you SMA or any other disease, they are consequences to man's choice

from the beginning.

2 12:15 And departed unto his house. And the LORD struck

the child that Uriah's wife bare unto , and it was very sick.

2 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD,

to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the

sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with

the sword of the children of Ammon.

2 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great

occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is

born unto thee shall surely die. ( prophesy)

2 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child

died.

[This is but one of many instances of BibleGod personally smiting the

innocent.] (I wouldn't have checked that box for Jordan either...and

wouldn't have even gotten my pencil close to it.)

In fact, the Bible is crystal clear that God didn't author sickness and

disease.

Amos 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and

create evil: I the LORD do all these these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be

afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

You need to blame the other guy that no one wants to believe in

either...Satan...since he was the willful deceiver from the beginning.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou

shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt

surely die.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and

thirty years: and he died.

[bibleGod gets the credit for the first lie.] There is far more going

on around us at all times than we can actually see with our eyes.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his

secret unto his servants the prophets.

---

Jay, I do agree with a fair portion of what you are saying. It's just

that the Bible does not support our assertions very well. I, like you,

do wish more Christians would read the Bible. I also agree that the

gods are not responsible for creating disease. I think the reverse may

be plausible though. Disease is responsible (at least in part) for

creating the gods.

~

January 6, 2006

Because of inaccurate assumptions and statements. That's generally a

good indicator, but I suppose it could also be because of lack of

understanding. My statement is kind of general, but that's because the

fact is the general population has formed an opinion of religion, the

Bible, and God based primarily on their feelings and opinions. Most

people never have read the Bible, but seem to have an opinion of it's

accuracy and truth. For example, many people say that because they

can't see God He must not exist. Because I can't see the author of the

book on my desk doesn't mean someone didn't write it. Likewise, because

I can't see God doesn't mean he doesn't exist, and because I don't like

everything the Bible says, nor how the world functions, doesn't mean

that it's not true.

God didn't ask our opinion when he created, and I don't think he'll use

my opinion to carry out His plan either. Why would he need my

opinion...He's God.

The Bible is proof to me because I find it hard to believe that someone

would expend the energy and care to create a delicately balanced,

detailed universe and world like this and walk away without having a

purpose for it and revealing Himself to us. I've investigated the other

religions of the world and found them all to be the same. They are all

based upon working your way into heaven, their founders or gods are all

dead, and their holy books confine God to the same 4 dimensions that you

and I are confined to...length, width, height, and time...which tells me

that they were man conceived and made, and they were also written by a

single individual. However, the Christian Bible is significantly

different. It's based upon salvation by the grace of God (it's a gift,

not earned lest any man should boast), its founder has an empty tomb in

Israel because He's not dead, it makes reference to many more than 4

dimensions (8+...which tells me it was divinely inspired), contains 66

books written over a couple thousand years by 40 different authors from

several different countries who didn't know each other...and yet sings

the same song and supports the other books perfectly (in fact are all

required to make sense of the whole story), and it contains an

incredible number of specifically, accurately fulfilled prophecies. In

addition, there are a vast number of scientific and archeological proofs

of the truth of scripture. Beyond that, my own personal experience and

relationship with Christ exists exactly like the Bible tells me it will.

That's all the proof I need to " think the Bible is proof of anything " .