Re: OT religion and me/meg

[Guest guest]

ok this comment was rather offensive to me. Fine if YOU don't rely on the bible,

but to say " you can't " ...that is what is " just ridiculous " . The Bible has been

proven historically accurate: They are uncovering more and more evidence to

verify the historical record of the Bible.

" For example, the Old Testament mentioned a people known as the Hittites

nearly 50 times. But for centuries, those who studied the ancient world

questioned the Bible because they had discovered no evidence of such a people.

In 1906, however, the Hittite capital was uncovered about 90 miles east of

Ankara, the capital of Turkey. "

Recent discoveries include the pool of siloam :

" The Pool of Siloam was uncovered last week by chance at the southern end of

the City of – in what today is Silwan – while the city was carrying out

infrastructure work for a new sewage pipe.

Archeologist Eli Shukrun said that two millennia ago, Jewish residents would

use the pool to gather water for their homes, as a meeting place, and also

possibly as a mikve.

…

“This is our history and it is important that we know and remember that Jews

lived here, and that this is our inheritance,” Education Minister Limor Livnat

said.

Biblical writings indicate the pool was used by Jews for ritual immersions

from about 50 B.C. to A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple. "

What about all the fulfilled prophecy concerning Christ alone?

Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and Psalm 22, for instance, record specific details

about death by crucifixion hundreds of years before this terrible form of

execution was ever practiced.

" Another example of fulfilled prophecy was the destruction of the city of

Tyre. Hundreds of years before, Ezekiel had predicted that the city would be

destroyed and the ruins scraped off and dumped into the sea, never to be rebuilt

(Ezekiel 26). It happened exactly as predicted. First Nebuchadnezzar destroyed

the city, then had his men use the ruins to build a causeway out to an

offshore island where the people had fled. That causeway may still be seen today

as a silent witness to the accuracy of Bible prophecy. accurately

predicted the succession of four great world powers: Babylonia, Medo-Persia,

Greece, and Rome ( 2 and 7). The predictions of the judgment of God

against Nineveh (Nahum 1-3), Ammon and Moab ( 48-49), Babylon (Isaiah

13-14; 51), and Edom (Isaiah 34; 49; Ezekiel 25, 35) were all

fulfilled as prophesied.

Whenever the Bible speaks prophetically, it is accurate. Hundreds of

prophecies have been literally fulfilled.

On this basis, we can also believe what the Bible has to say about things to

come. It has already proven itself! "

I could go on and on ....

" Meg W. " <pink-tulip@...> wrote:

You can't really rely on the bible for answers to these questions, that's

just ridiculous. The stories in the bible aren't meant to be taken

literally. They are written as lessons to be learned, to figure out what

the meaning is, and each person can interpret the same story in different

ways.

---------------------------------

Photos

Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

[Guest guest]

I was always taught that the Bible is to be viewed from different

perspectives: historically, prophetically, and symbolically. The whole Bible

is not to

be taken literally. Yes, some of the Bible has been proven to be

historically right, but also some of the stories told in the Bible are

allegoric. I

believe I was even told in one class that some of the stories like the ages of

how long some ppl lived. Those numbers are allegoric too. I think that was

what Meg was trying to say.

Kimi

In a message dated 1/12/2006 10:23:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

j0yeuxx@... writes:

ok this comment was rather offensive to me. Fine if YOU don't rely on the

bible, but to say " you can't " ...that is what is " just ridiculous " . The Bible

has been proven historically accurate: They are uncovering more and more

evidence to verify the historical record of the Bible.

" For example, the Old Testament mentioned a people known as the Hittites

nearly 50 times. But for centuries, those who studied the ancient world

questioned the Bible because they had discovered no evidence of such a people.

In

1906, however, the Hittite capital was uncovered about 90 miles east of Ankara,

the capital of Turkey. "

Recent discoveries include the pool of siloam :

" The Pool of Siloam was uncovered last week by chance at the southern end of

the City of – in what today is Silwan – while the city was carrying

out infrastructure work for a new sewage pipe.

Archeologist Eli Shukrun said that two millennia ago, Jewish residents would

use the pool to gather water for their homes, as a meeting place, and also

possibly as a mikve.

…

“This is our history and it is important that we know and remember that Jews

lived here, and that this is our inheritance,†Education Minister Limor

Livnat said.

Biblical writings indicate the pool was used by Jews for ritual immersions

from about 50 B.C. to A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple. "

What about all the fulfilled prophecy concerning Christ alone?

Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and Psalm 22, for instance, record specific

details about death by crucifixion hundreds of years before this terrible form

of

execution was ever practiced.

" Another example of fulfilled prophecy was the destruction of the city of

Tyre. Hundreds of years before, Ezekiel had predicted that the city would be

destroyed and the ruins scraped off and dumped into the sea, never to be

rebuilt (Ezekiel 26). It happened exactly as predicted. First Nebuchadnezzar

destroyed the city, then had his men use the ruins to build a

causeway

out to an offshore island where the people had fled. That causeway may still be

seen today as a silent witness to the accuracy of Bible prophecy.

accurately predicted the succession of four great world powers: Babylonia,

Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome ( 2 and 7). The predictions of the

judgment of God against Nineveh (Nahum 1-3), Ammon and Moab ( 48-49),

Babylon (Isaiah 13-14; 51), and Edom (Isaiah 34; 49; Ezekiel

25,

35) were all fulfilled as prophesied.

Whenever the Bible speaks prophetically, it is accurate. Hundreds of

prophecies have been literally fulfilled.

On this basis, we can also believe what the Bible has to say about things to

come. It has already proven itself! "

I could go on and on ....

[Guest guest]

We are on two different pages here.

I am referring to stories of the bible, not archeological facts and

findings. Sure, there are some facts to support that the people mentioned

in the bible, towns, cities, etc., existed. What's your point?

That is different from the stories. Do you really believe God created the

world in 7 days, or rather 6? Do you think the fall of human kind was

caused by some hungry chick eating a damn apple? Please!

And it is always fascinating to me how people pick out the few facts that

support their opinion, but leave out tons of unsupported facts behind. Why

is that? If you want to be fair, state all the facts that are supported by

archeology and all the ones that aren't. And don't give me the bullshit

that just because they haven't found artifacts to support one thing that it

doesn't mean it isn't true.

That's like saying if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle!

And yes, I consider myself a good catholic. Good, not naïve!

God! I can't wait for the attack on me for this post. I can feel it coming

as I type! *LOL*

Eternal Blessings,

Meg.

(My Blog: http://360./my_profile.html)

RE: Re: OT religion and me/meg

ok this comment was rather offensive to me. Fine if YOU don't rely on the

bible, but to say " you can't " ...that is what is " just ridiculous " . The

Bible has been proven historically accurate: They are uncovering more and

more evidence to verify the historical record of the Bible.

" For example, the Old Testament mentioned a people known as the Hittites

nearly 50 times. But for centuries, those who studied the ancient world

questioned the Bible because they had discovered no evidence of such a

people. In 1906, however, the Hittite capital was uncovered about 90 miles

east of Ankara, the capital of Turkey. "

Recent discoveries include the pool of siloam :

" The Pool of Siloam was uncovered last week by chance at the southern

end of the City of – in what today is Silwan – while the city was

carrying out infrastructure work for a new sewage pipe.

Archeologist Eli Shukrun said that two millennia ago, Jewish residents

would use the pool to gather water for their homes, as a meeting place, and

also possibly as a mikve.

…

“This is our history and it is important that we know and remember that Jews

lived here, and that this is our inheritance,” Education Minister Limor

Livnat said.

Biblical writings indicate the pool was used by Jews for ritual immersions

from about 50 B.C. to A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple. "

What about all the fulfilled prophecy concerning Christ alone?

Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and Psalm 22, for instance, record specific

details about death by crucifixion hundreds of years before this terrible

form of execution was ever practiced.

" Another example of fulfilled prophecy was the destruction of the city of

Tyre. Hundreds of years before, Ezekiel had predicted that the city would be

destroyed and the ruins scraped off and dumped into the sea, never to be

rebuilt (Ezekiel 26). It happened exactly as predicted. First Nebuchadnezzar

destroyed the city, then had his men use the ruins to build a

causeway out to an offshore island where the people had fled. That causeway

may still be seen today as a silent witness to the accuracy of Bible

prophecy. accurately predicted the succession of four great world

powers: Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome ( 2 and 7). The

predictions of the judgment of God against Nineveh (Nahum 1-3), Ammon and

Moab ( 48-49), Babylon (Isaiah 13-14; 51), and Edom (Isaiah

34; 49; Ezekiel 25, 35) were all fulfilled as prophesied.

Whenever the Bible speaks prophetically, it is accurate. Hundreds of

prophecies have been literally fulfilled.

On this basis, we can also believe what the Bible has to say about things

to come. It has already proven itself! "

I could go on and on ....

" Meg W. " <pink-tulip@...> wrote:

You can't really rely on the bible for answers to these questions, that's

just ridiculous. The stories in the bible aren't meant to be taken

literally. They are written as lessons to be learned, to figure out what

the meaning is, and each person can interpret the same story in different

ways.

---------------------------------

Photos

Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands

ASAP.

[Guest guest]

Attack isn't a fair word. Response is a better fit. I'll respond and

then get out of this discussion since I'm sure I annoyed a number of

people with that last long winded discussion.

1. I'm not sure what " stories " in the Bible you're referring to. Of

course the parables are " stories " , but I'm not sure what else you would

say never happened...like it's a mythical legend? Do you realize that

the old testament is considered the history book of the Jewish people?

Do you consider the US history books mythical? If not, why not? What

makes those more authentic than the Jewish history book? How do we know

that the revolutionary war isn't just a story? We weren't there either,

yet we trust that it happened like the book says.

2. Why couldn't God have created the world in 6 days? If He's God he

should be able to easily do that. In fact, I often wonder why He took

so long. The deal is, in order to sustain life the chemistry of the

earth and the atmosphere needs to be in a certain balance. A slight bit

out of balance and life doesn't exist. According to evolutionists, that

balance would take ions to develop. If God is really God, He should be

able to put it in that " old age " state to start with in order to support

life, or life couldn't have been sustained from the very beginning.

3. As for the Adam an Eve account, if you don't believe anything else

in the Bible to be true, then I guess there's not much I can tell you

other than I think it happened just like it says. (By the way, it

doesn't say the fruit was an apple.) However, I don't think it really

had much to do with the fruit. It was about disobedience...Adam and Eve

disobeyed the only ground rule they were given, and that triggered the

fall of man because they were told that " the wages of sin is death. "

4. Your statement not to tell you " they haven't found artifacts to

support one thing that it doesn't mean it isn't true " is not a

reasonable statement. It's 100% the way it is. They find new artifacts

to support evidence for things all the time...Biblical or not. Several

ancient cities (ex. Jericho) were considered " myth " until they were

unearthed in recent years. Several ancient kings never existed until

they dug up artifacts that showed they did. Saying something never

happened is like saying that there will never be a cure for SMA because

they haven't found one yet. Archaeology finds new facts all the time

that prove historical things happened, Biblical or not.

I think the deal is that some of us think the Bible is the inerrant Word

of God, see it from the truth perspective, and will until it's proven

false. I'm not really sure why Bible believers are always expected to

prove that it's true. Why shouldn't non-believers have to prove that

it's not true by showing archeological evidence that it's not? I've

never seen any.

Jay

RE: Re: OT religion and me/meg

ok this comment was rather offensive to me. Fine if YOU don't rely on

the

bible, but to say " you can't " ...that is what is " just ridiculous " . The

Bible has been proven historically accurate: They are uncovering more

and

more evidence to verify the historical record of the Bible.

" For example, the Old Testament mentioned a people known as the

Hittites

nearly 50 times. But for centuries, those who studied the ancient world

questioned the Bible because they had discovered no evidence of such a

people. In 1906, however, the Hittite capital was uncovered about 90

miles

east of Ankara, the capital of Turkey. "

Recent discoveries include the pool of siloam :

" The Pool of Siloam was uncovered last week by chance at the

southern

end of the City of - in what today is Silwan - while the city was

carrying out infrastructure work for a new sewage pipe.

Archeologist Eli Shukrun said that two millennia ago, Jewish residents

would use the pool to gather water for their homes, as a meeting place,

and

also possibly as a mikve.

....

" This is our history and it is important that we know and remember that

Jews

lived here, and that this is our inheritance, " Education Minister Limor

Livnat said.

Biblical writings indicate the pool was used by Jews for ritual

immersions

from about 50 B.C. to A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish

Temple. "

What about all the fulfilled prophecy concerning Christ alone?

Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and Psalm 22, for instance, record specific

details about death by crucifixion hundreds of years before this

terrible

form of execution was ever practiced.

" Another example of fulfilled prophecy was the destruction of the city

of

Tyre. Hundreds of years before, Ezekiel had predicted that the city

would be

destroyed and the ruins scraped off and dumped into the sea, never to be

rebuilt (Ezekiel 26). It happened exactly as predicted. First

Nebuchadnezzar

destroyed the city, then had his men use the ruins to build a

causeway out to an offshore island where the people had fled. That

causeway

may still be seen today as a silent witness to the accuracy of Bible

prophecy. accurately predicted the succession of four great

world

powers: Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome ( 2 and 7). The

predictions of the judgment of God against Nineveh (Nahum 1-3), Ammon

and

Moab ( 48-49), Babylon (Isaiah 13-14; 51), and Edom

(Isaiah

34; 49; Ezekiel 25, 35) were all fulfilled as prophesied.

Whenever the Bible speaks prophetically, it is accurate. Hundreds of

prophecies have been literally fulfilled.

On this basis, we can also believe what the Bible has to say about

things

to come. It has already proven itself! "

I could go on and on ....

" Meg W. " <pink-tulip@...> wrote:

You can't really rely on the bible for answers to these questions,

that's

just ridiculous. The stories in the bible aren't meant to be taken

literally. They are written as lessons to be learned, to figure out what

the meaning is, and each person can interpret the same story in

different

ways.

---------------------------------

Photos

Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your

hands

ASAP.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Kimi, you totally understand my point. I'm glad someone does!

Eternal Blessings,

Meg.

(My Blog: http://360./my_profile.html)

Re: Re: OT religion and me/meg

I was always taught that the Bible is to be viewed from different

perspectives: historically, prophetically, and symbolically. The whole

Bible is not to

be taken literally. Yes, some of the Bible has been proven to be

historically right, but also some of the stories told in the Bible are

allegoric. I

believe I was even told in one class that some of the stories like the ages

of

how long some ppl lived. Those numbers are allegoric too. I think that

was

what Meg was trying to say.

Kimi

In a message dated 1/12/2006 10:23:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

j0yeuxx@... writes:

ok this comment was rather offensive to me. Fine if YOU don't rely on the

bible, but to say " you can't " ...that is what is " just ridiculous " . The

Bible

has been proven historically accurate: They are uncovering more and more

evidence to verify the historical record of the Bible.

" For example, the Old Testament mentioned a people known as the Hittites

nearly 50 times. But for centuries, those who studied the ancient world

questioned the Bible because they had discovered no evidence of such a

people. In

1906, however, the Hittite capital was uncovered about 90 miles east of

Ankara,

the capital of Turkey. "

Recent discoveries include the pool of siloam :

" The Pool of Siloam was uncovered last week by chance at the southern end

of

the City of - in what today is Silwan - while the city was carrying

out infrastructure work for a new sewage pipe.

Archeologist Eli Shukrun said that two millennia ago, Jewish residents

would

use the pool to gather water for their homes, as a meeting place, and also

possibly as a mikve.

..

" This is our history and it is important that we know and remember that

Jews

lived here, and that this is our inheritance, " Education Minister Limor

Livnat said.

Biblical writings indicate the pool was used by Jews for ritual immersions

from about 50 B.C. to A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish

Temple. "

What about all the fulfilled prophecy concerning Christ alone?

Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and Psalm 22, for instance, record specific

details about death by crucifixion hundreds of years before this terrible

form of

execution was ever practiced.

" Another example of fulfilled prophecy was the destruction of the city of

Tyre. Hundreds of years before, Ezekiel had predicted that the city would

be

destroyed and the ruins scraped off and dumped into the sea, never to be

rebuilt (Ezekiel 26). It happened exactly as predicted. First

Nebuchadnezzar

destroyed the city, then had his men use the ruins to build a

causeway

out to an offshore island where the people had fled. That causeway may

still be

seen today as a silent witness to the accuracy of Bible prophecy.

accurately predicted the succession of four great world powers: Babylonia,

Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome ( 2 and 7). The predictions of the

judgment of God against Nineveh (Nahum 1-3), Ammon and Moab (

48-49),

Babylon (Isaiah 13-14; 51), and Edom (Isaiah 34; 49;

Ezekiel 25,

35) were all fulfilled as prophesied.

Whenever the Bible speaks prophetically, it is accurate. Hundreds of

prophecies have been literally fulfilled.

On this basis, we can also believe what the Bible has to say about things

to

come. It has already proven itself! "

I could go on and on ....

[Guest guest]

This is the second time I've broken a promise not to comment further,

for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the burden of proof

being on those who do not believe made me chuckle. Forgive me for

being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an infinite number of

hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make up a few on the spot

if you want, but here's one the philosopher Bertrand used to

illustrate the same point:

What if I believed there was a china teapot orbiting the sun between

Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen by even the most

powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its existence. What if I

said that since the teapot's existence cannot be disproved, it is

rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its existence? Everyone

would think I was crazy. If, however, the existence of such a teapot

was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every

Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, NOT

believing in its existence would be regarded as eccentric or mad.

" Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and tortured for daring to

question the existence of the teapot.

We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we are all atheists

when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here believes in Thor?

Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each of these has their

own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient writings, so why not

believe in them? There are literally millions of gods that none of us

believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain some historical

information that is backed up by other sources, giving those passages

some historical credence, there is no evidence whatsoever for things

like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the other hand, there are

mountains of evidence (and I mean that both figuratively and literally

- just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is several billion years

old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that is your choice. You

are even free to believe in the teapot if you want. Indeed, I

fervently support your right to do so. But it is ridiculous to claim

that the burden of proof is on those who do not believe in a given

myth. Science has better things to do with its time than that. Curing

SMA, for one.

I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying this. Oh well, I've

been called worse. I would simply reply that if there is anything

arrogant in the world, surely it is religion, which claims to have all

the answers - absolute truth - and actively discourages doubt.

Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says: " We know nothing. But

let's look at the evidence and see what it tells us. "

Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth " would have looked

at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and told me that she was

inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even that she was a

witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by exorcism or

drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown that there is

nothing more sinister about her than a missing gene. What's more, it

is beginning to find ways that her missing gene could be replaced or

circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has also shown that

everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron evidence against

discrimination and in favor of equality.

Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000... (there were lots of

zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life existing on Earth, which

Nick rightly countered with the point that there are so many planets

in the universe that it's not so improbable for it to have happened

somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To calculate the chances of my

daughter existing, I would have to multiply Sagan's figure by the

probability of the first self-replicating organism evolving over

millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the probability that

each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my ancestors came together

at just the right point. In short, the chances of my daughter existing

are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did happen! She does

exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I need in my life.

Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened, thanks to science,

just adds to the sense of wonder.

Tokyo, Japan

(with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

[Guest guest]

A PS to that last mail:

I said that scientists had better things to do than rebut myths, but

it seems some of them have found the time to produce a phenomenally

detailed website addressing the creationist arguments that have been

expressed in this discussion, including the one about the Earth being

only thousands of years old. There is also an exhaustive section on

evolution that is far more eloquent than anything I could hope to

produce and provides reams of evidence into the bargain.

http://www.talkorigins.org

Tokyo, Japan

[Guest guest]

I suppose we all have our websites to turn to:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/ <http://www.answersingenesis.org/>

http://www.reasons.org/ <http://www.reasons.org/>

It all comes down to what your baseline bias is...where you want to put

your faith.

Jay

Re: OT religion and me/meg

A PS to that last mail:

I said that scientists had better things to do than rebut myths, but

it seems some of them have found the time to produce a phenomenally

detailed website addressing the creationist arguments that have been

expressed in this discussion, including the one about the Earth being

only thousands of years old. There is also an exhaustive section on

evolution that is far more eloquent than anything I could hope to

produce and provides reams of evidence into the bargain.

http://www.talkorigins.org <http://www.talkorigins.org>

Tokyo, Japan

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[Guest guest]

,

All I can say is that your Evolutionary theory requires faith in

numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1 thing - how it all started.

I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption - that God started it, and

then everything else makes sense.

Which takes more faith?

We can go back and forth, and 'round an 'round on this topic, but we're

all on the same page with SMA. Find a way to help our kids stay

healthy, find a treatment to make them stronger, and find a cure so we

can eliminate the disease and shout for joy together!

Thanks for an interesting discussion on the off topic subject!

Jay

Re: OT religion and me/meg

This is the second time I've broken a promise not to comment further,

for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the burden of proof

being on those who do not believe made me chuckle. Forgive me for

being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an infinite number of

hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make up a few on the spot

if you want, but here's one the philosopher Bertrand used to

illustrate the same point:

What if I believed there was a china teapot orbiting the sun between

Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen by even the most

powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its existence. What if I

said that since the teapot's existence cannot be disproved, it is

rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its existence? Everyone

would think I was crazy. If, however, the existence of such a teapot

was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every

Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, NOT

believing in its existence would be regarded as eccentric or mad.

" Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and tortured for daring to

question the existence of the teapot.

We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we are all atheists

when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here believes in Thor?

Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each of these has their

own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient writings, so why not

believe in them? There are literally millions of gods that none of us

believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain some historical

information that is backed up by other sources, giving those passages

some historical credence, there is no evidence whatsoever for things

like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the other hand, there are

mountains of evidence (and I mean that both figuratively and literally

- just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is several billion years

old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that is your choice. You

are even free to believe in the teapot if you want. Indeed, I

fervently support your right to do so. But it is ridiculous to claim

that the burden of proof is on those who do not believe in a given

myth. Science has better things to do with its time than that. Curing

SMA, for one.

I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying this. Oh well, I've

been called worse. I would simply reply that if there is anything

arrogant in the world, surely it is religion, which claims to have all

the answers - absolute truth - and actively discourages doubt.

Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says: " We know nothing. But

let's look at the evidence and see what it tells us. "

Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth " would have looked

at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and told me that she was

inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even that she was a

witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by exorcism or

drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown that there is

nothing more sinister about her than a missing gene. What's more, it

is beginning to find ways that her missing gene could be replaced or

circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has also shown that

everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron evidence against

discrimination and in favor of equality.

Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000... (there were lots of

zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life existing on Earth, which

Nick rightly countered with the point that there are so many planets

in the universe that it's not so improbable for it to have happened

somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To calculate the chances of my

daughter existing, I would have to multiply Sagan's figure by the

probability of the first self-replicating organism evolving over

millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the probability that

each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my ancestors came together

at just the right point. In short, the chances of my daughter existing

are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did happen! She does

exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I need in my life.

Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened, thanks to science,

just adds to the sense of wonder.

Tokyo, Japan

(with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

A FEW RULES

* The list members come from many backgrounds, ages and beliefs So all

members most be tolerant and respectful to all members.

* Some adult language and topics (like sexual health, swearing..) may

occur occasionally in emails. Over use of inappropriate language will

not be allowed. If your under 16 ask your parents/gaurdian before you

join the list.

* No SPAMMING or sending numerous emails unrelated to the topics of

spinal muscular atrophy, health, and the daily issues of the disabled.

Post message:

Subscribe: -subscribe

Unsubscribe: -unsubscribe

List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@...

oogroups.com

List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@...

[Guest guest]

I love the Answers in Genesis web site. :-)

Blessings,

Holly

>

> From: jondus@...

> Date: 2006/01/13 Fri PM 07:50:37 GST

>

> Subject: RE: Re: OT religion and me/meg

>

>

[Guest guest]

Isnt the best cure for couples to get genetic work ups before choosing

to have children? I know there is the unplanned children, but usually

thats not the case. If everyone was tested at a presexual age for

possible passing ons, alot of things could be eliminated.

Doug

>

> ,

>

> All I can say is that your Evolutionary theory requires faith in

> numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1 thing - how it all started.

> I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption - that God started it, and

> then everything else makes sense.

>

> Which takes more faith?

>

>

> We can go back and forth, and 'round an 'round on this topic, but we're

> all on the same page with SMA. Find a way to help our kids stay

> healthy, find a treatment to make them stronger, and find a cure so we

> can eliminate the disease and shout for joy together!

>

> Thanks for an interesting discussion on the off topic subject!

>

> Jay

>

> Re: OT religion and me/meg

>

>

> This is the second time I've broken a promise not to comment further,

> for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the burden of proof

> being on those who do not believe made me chuckle. Forgive me for

> being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an infinite number of

> hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make up a few on the spot

> if you want, but here's one the philosopher Bertrand used to

> illustrate the same point:

>

> What if I believed there was a china teapot orbiting the sun between

> Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen by even the most

> powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its existence. What if I

> said that since the teapot's existence cannot be disproved, it is

> rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its existence? Everyone

> would think I was crazy. If, however, the existence of such a teapot

> was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every

> Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, NOT

> believing in its existence would be regarded as eccentric or mad.

> " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and tortured for daring to

> question the existence of the teapot.

>

> We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we are all atheists

> when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here believes in Thor?

> Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each of these has their

> own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient writings, so why not

> believe in them? There are literally millions of gods that none of us

> believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

>

> And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain some historical

> information that is backed up by other sources, giving those passages

> some historical credence, there is no evidence whatsoever for things

> like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the other hand, there are

> mountains of evidence (and I mean that both figuratively and literally

> - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is several billion years

> old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that is your choice. You

> are even free to believe in the teapot if you want. Indeed, I

> fervently support your right to do so. But it is ridiculous to claim

> that the burden of proof is on those who do not believe in a given

> myth. Science has better things to do with its time than that. Curing

> SMA, for one.

>

> I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying this. Oh well, I've

> been called worse. I would simply reply that if there is anything

> arrogant in the world, surely it is religion, which claims to have all

> the answers - absolute truth - and actively discourages doubt.

> Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says: " We know nothing. But

> let's look at the evidence and see what it tells us. "

>

> Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth " would have looked

> at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and told me that she was

> inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even that she was a

> witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by exorcism or

> drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown that there is

> nothing more sinister about her than a missing gene. What's more, it

> is beginning to find ways that her missing gene could be replaced or

> circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has also shown that

> everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron evidence against

> discrimination and in favor of equality.

>

> Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000... (there were lots of

> zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life existing on Earth, which

> Nick rightly countered with the point that there are so many planets

> in the universe that it's not so improbable for it to have happened

> somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To calculate the chances of my

> daughter existing, I would have to multiply Sagan's figure by the

> probability of the first self-replicating organism evolving over

> millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the probability that

> each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my ancestors came together

> at just the right point. In short, the chances of my daughter existing

> are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did happen! She does

> exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I need in my life.

> Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened, thanks to science,

> just adds to the sense of wonder.

>

>

> Tokyo, Japan

>

> (with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

>

>

> A FEW RULES

>

> * The list members come from many backgrounds, ages and beliefs So all

> members most be tolerant and respectful to all members.

>

> * Some adult language and topics (like sexual health, swearing..) may

> occur occasionally in emails. Over use of inappropriate language will

> not be allowed. If your under 16 ask your parents/gaurdian before you

> join the list.

>

> * No SPAMMING or sending numerous emails unrelated to the topics of

> spinal muscular atrophy, health, and the daily issues of the disabled.

>

> Post message:

> Subscribe: -subscribe

> Unsubscribe: -unsubscribe

>

> List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@a...

>

>

>

>

> oogroups.com

>

> List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@a...

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/18/2006 8:24:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

pink-tulip@... writes:

What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus was tested positive for

some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse. Would you choose to

abort it?

The reasons for testing go far beyond THIS choice. It's important to

know. If your baby has a heart defect, you need to deliver in a Hospital that

is equipped, rather than airlift the poor newborn to a major city......

So many people say " I don't want a pre-natal test b/c I would NEVER abort " .

Well, there's so much more to it, like saving the life of your baby!

~

[Guest guest]

If I had the choice of my children and a world with

SMA - versus not having my children - I'd just assume

not be alive.

--- Doug Blackman <never_wins_any@...> wrote:

> Isnt the best cure for couples to get genetic work

> ups before choosing

> to have children? I know there is the unplanned

> children, but usually

> thats not the case. If everyone was tested at a

> presexual age for

> possible passing ons, alot of things could be

> eliminated.

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > All I can say is that your Evolutionary theory

> requires faith in

> > numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1 thing

> - how it all started.

> > I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption - that

> God started it, and

> > then everything else makes sense.

> >

> > Which takes more faith?

> >

> >

> > We can go back and forth, and 'round an 'round on

> this topic, but we're

> > all on the same page with SMA. Find a way to help

> our kids stay

> > healthy, find a treatment to make them stronger,

> and find a cure so we

> > can eliminate the disease and shout for joy

> together!

> >

> > Thanks for an interesting discussion on the off

> topic subject!

> >

> > Jay

> >

> > Re: OT religion and me/meg

> >

> >

> > This is the second time I've broken a promise not

> to comment further,

> > for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the

> burden of proof

> > being on those who do not believe made me chuckle.

> Forgive me for

> > being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an

> infinite number of

> > hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make

> up a few on the spot

> > if you want, but here's one the philosopher

> Bertrand used to

> > illustrate the same point:

> >

> > What if I believed there was a china teapot

> orbiting the sun between

> > Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen

> by even the most

> > powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its

> existence. What if I

> > said that since the teapot's existence cannot be

> disproved, it is

> > rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its

> existence? Everyone

> > would think I was crazy. If, however, the

> existence of such a teapot

> > was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the

> sacred truth every

> > Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children

> at school, NOT

> > believing in its existence would be regarded as

> eccentric or mad.

> > " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and

> tortured for daring to

> > question the existence of the teapot.

> >

> > We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we

> are all atheists

> > when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here

> believes in Thor?

> > Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each

> of these has their

> > own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient

> writings, so why not

> > believe in them? There are literally millions of

> gods that none of us

> > believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

> >

> > And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain

> some historical

> > information that is backed up by other sources,

> giving those passages

> > some historical credence, there is no evidence

> whatsoever for things

> > like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the

> other hand, there are

> > mountains of evidence (and I mean that both

> figuratively and literally

> > - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is

> several billion years

> > old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that

> is your choice. You

> > are even free to believe in the teapot if you

> want. Indeed, I

> > fervently support your right to do so. But it is

> ridiculous to claim

> > that the burden of proof is on those who do not

> believe in a given

> > myth. Science has better things to do with its

> time than that. Curing

> > SMA, for one.

> >

> > I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying

> this. Oh well, I've

> > been called worse. I would simply reply that if

> there is anything

> > arrogant in the world, surely it is religion,

> which claims to have all

> > the answers - absolute truth - and actively

> discourages doubt.

> > Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says:

> " We know nothing. But

> > let's look at the evidence and see what it tells

> us. "

> >

> > Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth "

> would have looked

> > at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and

> told me that she was

> > inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even

> that she was a

> > witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by

> exorcism or

> > drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown

> that there is

> > nothing more sinister about her than a missing

> gene. What's more, it

> > is beginning to find ways that her missing gene

> could be replaced or

> > circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has

> also shown that

> > everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron

> evidence against

> > discrimination and in favor of equality.

> >

> > Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000...

> (there were lots of

> > zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life

> existing on Earth, which

> > Nick rightly countered with the point that there

> are so many planets

> > in the universe that it's not so improbable for it

> to have happened

> > somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To

> calculate the chances of my

> > daughter existing, I would have to multiply

> Sagan's figure by the

> > probability of the first self-replicating

> organism evolving over

> > millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the

> probability that

> > each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my

> ancestors came together

> > at just the right point. In short, the chances of

> my daughter existing

> > are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did

> happen! She does

> > exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I

> need in my life.

> > Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened,

> thanks to science,

> > just adds to the sense of wonder.

> >

> >

> > Tokyo, Japan

> >

> > (with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

> >

> >

> > A FEW RULES

> >

> > * The list members come from many backgrounds,

> ages and beliefs So all

> > members most be tolerant and respectful to all

> members.

> >

> > * Some adult language and topics (like sexual

> health, swearing..) may

> > occur occasionally in emails. Over use of

> inappropriate language will

> > not be allowed. If your under 16 ask your

> parents/gaurdian

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus was tested positive for

some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse. Would you choose to

abort it?

Eternal Blessings,

Meg.

(My Blog: http://360./pink-tulipameritech (DOT) net)

Re: OT religion and me/meg

>

>

> This is the second time I've broken a promise not to comment further,

> for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the burden of proof

> being on those who do not believe made me chuckle. Forgive me for

> being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an infinite number of

> hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make up a few on the spot

> if you want, but here's one the philosopher Bertrand used to

> illustrate the same point:

>

> What if I believed there was a china teapot orbiting the sun between

> Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen by even the most

> powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its existence. What if I

> said that since the teapot's existence cannot be disproved, it is

> rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its existence? Everyone

> would think I was crazy. If, however, the existence of such a teapot

> was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every

> Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, NOT

> believing in its existence would be regarded as eccentric or mad.

> " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and tortured for daring to

> question the existence of the teapot.

>

> We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we are all atheists

> when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here believes in Thor?

> Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each of these has their

> own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient writings, so why not

> believe in them? There are literally millions of gods that none of us

> believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

>

> And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain some historical

> information that is backed up by other sources, giving those passages

> some historical credence, there is no evidence whatsoever for things

> like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the other hand, there are

> mountains of evidence (and I mean that both figuratively and literally

> - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is several billion years

> old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that is your choice. You

> are even free to believe in the teapot if you want. Indeed, I

> fervently support your right to do so. But it is ridiculous to claim

> that the burden of proof is on those who do not believe in a given

> myth. Science has better things to do with its time than that. Curing

> SMA, for one.

>

> I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying this. Oh well, I've

> been called worse. I would simply reply that if there is anything

> arrogant in the world, surely it is religion, which claims to have all

> the answers - absolute truth - and actively discourages doubt.

> Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says: " We know nothing. But

> let's look at the evidence and see what it tells us. "

>

> Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth " would have looked

> at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and told me that she was

> inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even that she was a

> witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by exorcism or

> drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown that there is

> nothing more sinister about her than a missing gene. What's more, it

> is beginning to find ways that her missing gene could be replaced or

> circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has also shown that

> everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron evidence against

> discrimination and in favor of equality.

>

> Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000... (there were lots of

> zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life existing on Earth, which

> Nick rightly countered with the point that there are so many planets

> in the universe that it's not so improbable for it to have happened

> somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To calculate the chances of my

> daughter existing, I would have to multiply Sagan's figure by the

> probability of the first self-replicating organism evolving over

> millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the probability that

> each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my ancestors came together

> at just the right point. In short, the chances of my daughter existing

> are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did happen! She does

> exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I need in my life.

> Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened, thanks to science,

> just adds to the sense of wonder.

>

>

> Tokyo, Japan

>

> (with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

>

>

> A FEW RULES

>

> * The list members come from many backgrounds, ages and beliefs So all

> members most be tolerant and respectful to all members.

>

> * Some adult language and topics (like sexual health, swearing..) may

> occur occasionally in emails. Over use of inappropriate language will

> not be allowed. If your under 16 ask your parents/gaurdian before you

> join the list.

>

> * No SPAMMING or sending numerous emails unrelated to the topics of

> spinal muscular atrophy, health, and the daily issues of the disabled.

>

> Post message:

> Subscribe: -subscribe

> Unsubscribe: -unsubscribe

>

> List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@a...

>

>

>

>

> oogroups.com

>

> List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@a...

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I could yes, but its in her body then its her choice. If our love was strong

then all would work out. If the bond was weak then it would break apart.

Doug

" Meg W. " <pink-tulip@...> wrote:

What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus was tested positive for

some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse. Would you choose to

abort it?

Eternal Blessings,

Meg.

(My Blog: http://360./pink-tulipameritech (DOT) net)

Re: OT religion and me/meg

>

>

> This is the second time I've broken a promise not to comment further,

> for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the burden of proof

> being on those who do not believe made me chuckle. Forgive me for

> being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an infinite number of

> hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make up a few on the spot

> if you want, but here's one the philosopher Bertrand used to

> illustrate the same point:

>

> What if I believed there was a china teapot orbiting the sun between

> Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen by even the most

> powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its existence. What if I

> said that since the teapot's existence cannot be disproved, it is

> rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its existence? Everyone

> would think I was crazy. If, however, the existence of such a teapot

> was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every

> Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, NOT

> believing in its existence would be regarded as eccentric or mad.

> " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and tortured for daring to

> question the existence of the teapot.

>

> We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we are all atheists

> when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here believes in Thor?

> Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each of these has their

> own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient writings, so why not

> believe in them? There are literally millions of gods that none of us

> believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

>

> And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain some historical

> information that is backed up by other sources, giving those passages

> some historical credence, there is no evidence whatsoever for things

> like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the other hand, there are

> mountains of evidence (and I mean that both figuratively and literally

> - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is several billion years

> old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that is your choice. You

> are even free to believe in the teapot if you want. Indeed, I

> fervently support your right to do so. But it is ridiculous to claim

> that the burden of proof is on those who do not believe in a given

> myth. Science has better things to do with its time than that. Curing

> SMA, for one.

>

> I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying this. Oh well, I've

> been called worse. I would simply reply that if there is anything

> arrogant in the world, surely it is religion, which claims to have all

> the answers - absolute truth - and actively discourages doubt.

> Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says: " We know nothing. But

> let's look at the evidence and see what it tells us. "

>

> Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth " would have looked

> at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and told me that she was

> inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even that she was a

> witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by exorcism or

> drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown that there is

> nothing more sinister about her than a missing gene. What's more, it

> is beginning to find ways that her missing gene could be replaced or

> circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has also shown that

> everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron evidence against

> discrimination and in favor of equality.

>

> Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000... (there were lots of

> zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life existing on Earth, which

> Nick rightly countered with the point that there are so many planets

> in the universe that it's not so improbable for it to have happened

> somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To calculate the chances of my

> daughter existing, I would have to multiply Sagan's figure by the

> probability of the first self-replicating organism evolving over

> millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the probability that

> each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my ancestors came together

> at just the right point. In short, the chances of my daughter existing

> are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did happen! She does

> exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I need in my life.

> Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened, thanks to science,

> just adds to the sense of wonder.

>

>

> Tokyo, Japan

>

> (with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

>

>

> A FEW RULES

>

> * The list members come from many backgrounds, ages and beliefs So all

> members most be tolerant and respectful to all members.

>

> * Some adult language and topics (like sexual health, swearing..) may

> occur occasionally in emails. Over use of inappropriate language will

> not be allowed. If your under 16 ask your parents/gaurdian before you

> join the list.

>

> * No SPAMMING or sending numerous emails unrelated to the topics of

> spinal muscular atrophy, health, and the daily issues of the disabled.

>

> Post message:

> Subscribe: -subscribe

> Unsubscribe: -unsubscribe

>

> List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@a...

>

>

>

>

> oogroups.com

>

> List manager: (Sexy Mature Artist) Email: Esma1999@a...

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Many people have trouble seperating themselves from such talk, its your saying

they shouldnt have been born, which no one is saying. Science and technologies

change and so should our views, but its still up to the individuals.

Doug

<mongomustgolf@...> wrote:

If I had the choice of my children and a world with

SMA - versus not having my children - I'd just assume

not be alive.

--- Doug Blackman <never_wins_any@...> wrote:

> Isnt the best cure for couples to get genetic work

> ups before choosing

> to have children? I know there is the unplanned

> children, but usually

> thats not the case. If everyone was tested at a

> presexual age for

> possible passing ons, alot of things could be

> eliminated.

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > All I can say is that your Evolutionary theory

> requires faith in

> > numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1 thing

> - how it all started.

> > I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption - that

> God started it, and

> > then everything else makes sense.

> >

> > Which takes more faith?

> >

> >

> > We can go back and forth, and 'round an 'round on

> this topic, but we're

> > all on the same page with SMA. Find a way to help

> our kids stay

> > healthy, find a treatment to make them stronger,

> and find a cure so we

> > can eliminate the disease and shout for joy

> together!

> >

> > Thanks for an interesting discussion on the off

> topic subject!

> >

> > Jay

> >

> > Re: OT religion and me/meg

> >

> >

> > This is the second time I've broken a promise not

> to comment further,

> > for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about the

> burden of proof

> > being on those who do not believe made me chuckle.

> Forgive me for

> > being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an

> infinite number of

> > hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could make

> up a few on the spot

> > if you want, but here's one the philosopher

> Bertrand used to

> > illustrate the same point:

> >

> > What if I believed there was a china teapot

> orbiting the sun between

> > Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen

> by even the most

> > powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its

> existence. What if I

> > said that since the teapot's existence cannot be

> disproved, it is

> > rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its

> existence? Everyone

> > would think I was crazy. If, however, the

> existence of such a teapot

> > was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the

> sacred truth every

> > Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children

> at school, NOT

> > believing in its existence would be regarded as

> eccentric or mad.

> > " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and

> tortured for daring to

> > question the existence of the teapot.

> >

> > We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact, we

> are all atheists

> > when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who here

> believes in Thor?

> > Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god? Each

> of these has their

> > own suppporting " evidence " in the form of ancient

> writings, so why not

> > believe in them? There are literally millions of

> gods that none of us

> > believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

> >

> > And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain

> some historical

> > information that is backed up by other sources,

> giving those passages

> > some historical credence, there is no evidence

> whatsoever for things

> > like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the

> other hand, there are

> > mountains of evidence (and I mean that both

> figuratively and literally

> > - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is

> several billion years

> > old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then that

> is your choice. You

> > are even free to believe in the teapot if you

> want. Indeed, I

> > fervently support your right to do so. But it is

> ridiculous to claim

> > that the burden of proof is on those who do not

> believe in a given

> > myth. Science has better things to do with its

> time than that. Curing

> > SMA, for one.

> >

> > I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying

> this. Oh well, I've

> > been called worse. I would simply reply that if

> there is anything

> > arrogant in the world, surely it is religion,

> which claims to have all

> > the answers - absolute truth - and actively

> discourages doubt.

> > Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says:

> " We know nothing. But

> > let's look at the evidence and see what it tells

> us. "

> >

> > Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute truth "

> would have looked

> > at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and

> told me that she was

> > inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or even

> that she was a

> > witch. They would have recommended " curing " her by

> exorcism or

> > drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has shown

> that there is

> > nothing more sinister about her than a missing

> gene. What's more, it

> > is beginning to find ways that her missing gene

> could be replaced or

> > circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has

> also shown that

> > everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron

> evidence against

> > discrimination and in favor of equality.

> >

> > Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in 20000...

> (there were lots of

> > zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life

> existing on Earth, which

> > Nick rightly countered with the point that there

> are so many planets

> > in the universe that it's not so improbable for it

> to have happened

> > somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To

> calculate the chances of my

> > daughter existing, I would have to multiply

> Sagan's figure by the

> > probability of the first self-replicating

> organism evolving over

> > millions of years into homo sapiens, and then the

> probability that

> > each of the sperm and each of the eggs of my

> ancestors came together

> > at just the right point. In short, the chances of

> my daughter existing

> > are infinitessimal. And yet, all those things did

> happen! She does

> > exist! That fact provides all the inspiration I

> need in my life.

> > Having a pretty good idea of how it all happened,

> thanks to science,

> > just adds to the sense of wonder.

> >

> >

> > Tokyo, Japan

> >

> > (with a little inspiration from Channel 4)

> >

> >

> > A FEW RULES

> >

> > * The list members come from many backgrounds,

> ages and beliefs So all

> > members most be tolerant and respectful to all

> members.

> >

> > * Some adult language and topics (like sexual

> health, swearing..) may

> > occur occasionally in emails. Over use of

> inappropriate language will

> > not be allowed. If your under 16 ask your

> parents/gaurdian

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Well put an view I hadnt seen stated like that, but very

good point.

Doug

>

>

> In a message dated 1/18/2006 8:24:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> pink-tulip@a... writes:

>

> What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus was tested

positive for

> some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse. Would you

choose to

> abort it?

>

>

>

> The reasons for testing go far beyond THIS choice. It's

important to

> know. If your baby has a heart defect, you need to deliver in a

Hospital that

> is equipped, rather than airlift the poor newborn to a major

city......

> So many people say " I don't want a pre-natal test b/c I would

NEVER abort " .

> Well, there's so much more to it, like saving the life of your

baby!

> ~

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The reason for prenatal testing will be, at some point

in the near future, for the pregnant Mommy to start

taking 'supplements' for her baby - so that SMA never

is allowed to attack her child's survival motor

neurons. Also, once the precious child is born,

immediate supplementation of flSMN upregulating

medication.

Regardless one's view on religion, politics, etc. -

once you've had your own child - or witnessed the

birth of your own child, there is absolutely no

question that abortion is wrong. Perhaps those who

think they're Pro-choice just haven't experienced the

true magic - miracle - of birth - and just don't know.

Prior to the birth of my beautiful children, I suppose

I simply had no position on abortion. I was just a

dumb guy who worked a lot - tried to play as much golf

as possible - and somehow seemingly enjoyed being a

Cleveland, Ohio professional sports team fan (which in

case you're wondering, is NOT a pretty thing - last

major championship was in 1964). After getting

married - a year or so later and being part of the

birth of my son, I knew. Without a doubt. I knew.

Anything that is contrary to the birth of a child

(regardless all of the nonsensical definitions of when

the fetus becomes a child, etc.) - is plain Wrong.

That said, I am 100% for pre-natal testing - it will

only help to address SMA in young babies at the very

possible moment. Mitch

--- ChrisN1220@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/18/2006 8:24:27 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> pink-tulip@... writes:

>

> What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus

> was tested positive for

> some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse.

> Would you choose to

> abort it?

>

>

>

> The reasons for testing go far beyond THIS choice.

> It's important to

> know. If your baby has a heart defect, you need

> to deliver in a Hospital that

> is equipped, rather than airlift the poor newborn

> to a major city......

> So many people say " I don't want a pre-natal test

> b/c I would NEVER abort " .

> Well, there's so much more to it, like saving the

> life of your baby!

> ~

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

What I'm saying is my childen are 100% perfect. SMA

can Fuck OFF. That's what I'm saying.

--- no rating <never_wins_any@...> wrote:

> Many people have trouble seperating themselves from

> such talk, its your saying they shouldnt have been

> born, which no one is saying. Science and

> technologies change and so should our views, but its

> still up to the individuals.

>

> Doug

>

> <mongomustgolf@...> wrote:

> If I had the choice of my children and a world

> with

> SMA - versus not having my children - I'd just

> assume

> not be alive.

>

> --- Doug Blackman <never_wins_any@...> wrote:

>

> > Isnt the best cure for couples to get genetic work

> > ups before choosing

> > to have children? I know there is the unplanned

> > children, but usually

> > thats not the case. If everyone was tested at a

> > presexual age for

> > possible passing ons, alot of things could be

> > eliminated.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > All I can say is that your Evolutionary theory

> > requires faith in

> > > numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1

> thing

> > - how it all started.

> > > I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption -

> that

> > God started it, and

> > > then everything else makes sense.

> > >

> > > Which takes more faith?

> > >

> > >

> > > We can go back and forth, and 'round an 'round

> on

> > this topic, but we're

> > > all on the same page with SMA. Find a way to

> help

> > our kids stay

> > > healthy, find a treatment to make them stronger,

> > and find a cure so we

> > > can eliminate the disease and shout for joy

> > together!

> > >

> > > Thanks for an interesting discussion on the off

> > topic subject!

> > >

> > > Jay

> > >

> > > Re: OT religion and me/meg

>

> > >

> > >

> > > This is the second time I've broken a promise

> not

> > to comment further,

> > > for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about

> the

> > burden of proof

> > > being on those who do not believe made me

> chuckle.

> > Forgive me for

> > > being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an

> > infinite number of

> > > hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could

> make

> > up a few on the spot

> > > if you want, but here's one the philosopher

> > Bertrand used to

> > > illustrate the same point:

> > >

> > > What if I believed there was a china teapot

> > orbiting the sun between

> > > Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen

> > by even the most

> > > powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its

> > existence. What if I

> > > said that since the teapot's existence cannot be

> > disproved, it is

> > > rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its

> > existence? Everyone

> > > would think I was crazy. If, however, the

> > existence of such a teapot

> > > was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the

> > sacred truth every

> > > Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children

> > at school, NOT

> > > believing in its existence would be regarded as

> > eccentric or mad.

> > > " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and

> > tortured for daring to

> > > question the existence of the teapot.

> > >

> > > We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact,

> we

> > are all atheists

> > > when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who

> here

> > believes in Thor?

> > > Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god?

> Each

> > of these has their

> > > own suppporting " evidence " in the form of

> ancient

> > writings, so why not

> > > believe in them? There are literally millions of

> > gods that none of us

> > > believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

> > >

> > > And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain

> > some historical

> > > information that is backed up by other sources,

> > giving those passages

> > > some historical credence, there is no evidence

> > whatsoever for things

> > > like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the

> > other hand, there are

> > > mountains of evidence (and I mean that both

> > figuratively and literally

> > > - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is

> > several billion years

> > > old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then

> that

> > is your choice. You

> > > are even free to believe in the teapot if you

> > want. Indeed, I

> > > fervently support your right to do so. But it is

> > ridiculous to claim

> > > that the burden of proof is on those who do not

> > believe in a given

> > > myth. Science has better things to do with its

> > time than that. Curing

> > > SMA, for one.

> > >

> > > I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying

> > this. Oh well, I've

> > > been called worse. I would simply reply that if

> > there is anything

> > > arrogant in the world, surely it is religion,

> > which claims to have all

> > > the answers - absolute truth - and actively

> > discourages doubt.

> > > Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says:

> > " We know nothing. But

> > > let's look at the evidence and see what it tells

> > us. "

> > >

> > > Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute

> truth "

> > would have looked

> > > at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and

> > told me that she was

> > > inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or

> even

> > that she was a

> > > witch. They would have recommended " curing " her

> by

> > exorcism or

> > > drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has

> shown

> > that there is

> > > nothing more sinister about her than a missing

> > gene. What's more, it

> > > is beginning to find ways that her missing gene

> > could be replaced or

> > > circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has

> > also shown that

> > > everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron

> > evidence against

> > > discrimination and in favor of equality.

> > >

> > > Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in

> 20000...

> > (there were lots of

> > > zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life

> > existing on Earth, which

> > > Nick rightly countered with the point that there

> > are so many planets

> > > in the universe that it's not so improbable for

> it

> > to have happened

> > > somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Some children though are carried to term with a zero chance of life. Theres is

always exceptions abortion theories. Theres no reason to give birth to a brain

dead child unless your giving him/her for organ donation, because otherwise its

just undue stress on the mothers body. Everyone is entitled to their own view.

Some people would rather see the no pain or trama than to put the child into a

life of misery. Not saying all disablity is misery, but we all know many child

never are able to function to any degree.

Doug

<mongomustgolf@...> wrote: The reason for

prenatal testing will be, at some point

in the near future, for the pregnant Mommy to start

taking 'supplements' for her baby - so that SMA never

is allowed to attack her child's survival motor

neurons. Also, once the precious child is born,

immediate supplementation of flSMN upregulating

medication.

Regardless one's view on religion, politics, etc. -

once you've had your own child - or witnessed the

birth of your own child, there is absolutely no

question that abortion is wrong. Perhaps those who

think they're Pro-choice just haven't experienced the

true magic - miracle - of birth - and just don't know.

Prior to the birth of my beautiful children, I suppose

I simply had no position on abortion. I was just a

dumb guy who worked a lot - tried to play as much golf

as possible - and somehow seemingly enjoyed being a

Cleveland, Ohio professional sports team fan (which in

case you're wondering, is NOT a pretty thing - last

major championship was in 1964). After getting

married - a year or so later and being part of the

birth of my son, I knew. Without a doubt. I knew.

Anything that is contrary to the birth of a child

(regardless all of the nonsensical definitions of when

the fetus becomes a child, etc.) - is plain Wrong.

That said, I am 100% for pre-natal testing - it will

only help to address SMA in young babies at the very

possible moment. Mitch

--- ChrisN1220@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/18/2006 8:24:27 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> pink-tulip@... writes:

>

> What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus

> was tested positive for

> some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse.

> Would you choose to

> abort it?

>

>

>

> The reasons for testing go far beyond THIS choice.

> It's important to

> know. If your baby has a heart defect, you need

> to deliver in a Hospital that

> is equipped, rather than airlift the poor newborn

> to a major city......

> So many people say " I don't want a pre-natal test

> b/c I would NEVER abort " .

> Well, there's so much more to it, like saving the

> life of your baby!

> ~

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Very well said Mitch!

Jay

Re: Re: OT religion and me/meg

The reason for prenatal testing will be, at some point

in the near future, for the pregnant Mommy to start

taking 'supplements' for her baby - so that SMA never

is allowed to attack her child's survival motor

neurons. Also, once the precious child is born,

immediate supplementation of flSMN upregulating

medication.

Regardless one's view on religion, politics, etc. -

once you've had your own child - or witnessed the

birth of your own child, there is absolutely no

question that abortion is wrong. Perhaps those who

think they're Pro-choice just haven't experienced the

true magic - miracle - of birth - and just don't know.

Prior to the birth of my beautiful children, I suppose

I simply had no position on abortion. I was just a

dumb guy who worked a lot - tried to play as much golf

as possible - and somehow seemingly enjoyed being a

Cleveland, Ohio professional sports team fan (which in

case you're wondering, is NOT a pretty thing - last

major championship was in 1964). After getting

married - a year or so later and being part of the

birth of my son, I knew. Without a doubt. I knew.

Anything that is contrary to the birth of a child

(regardless all of the nonsensical definitions of when

the fetus becomes a child, etc.) - is plain Wrong.

That said, I am 100% for pre-natal testing - it will

only help to address SMA in young babies at the very

possible moment. Mitch

--- ChrisN1220@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/18/2006 8:24:27 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> pink-tulip@... writes:

>

> What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus

> was tested positive for

> some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse.

> Would you choose to

> abort it?

>

>

>

> The reasons for testing go far beyond THIS choice.

> It's important to

> know. If your baby has a heart defect, you need

> to deliver in a Hospital that

> is equipped, rather than airlift the poor newborn

> to a major city......

> So many people say " I don't want a pre-natal test

> b/c I would NEVER abort " .

> Well, there's so much more to it, like saving the

> life of your baby!

> ~

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I dont follow what you are saying though. Do your kids have sma and

you dont mind or do you and they dont? Sma can fuck off doesnt explain

anything srry.

Doug

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > >

> > > > All I can say is that your Evolutionary theory

> > > requires faith in

> > > > numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1

> > thing

> > > - how it all started.

> > > > I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption -

> > that

> > > God started it, and

> > > > then everything else makes sense.

> > > >

> > > > Which takes more faith?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > We can go back and forth, and 'round an 'round

> > on

> > > this topic, but we're

> > > > all on the same page with SMA. Find a way to

> > help

> > > our kids stay

> > > > healthy, find a treatment to make them stronger,

> > > and find a cure so we

> > > > can eliminate the disease and shout for joy

> > > together!

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for an interesting discussion on the off

> > > topic subject!

> > > >

> > > > Jay

> > > >

> > > > Re: OT religion and me/meg

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is the second time I've broken a promise

> > not

> > > to comment further,

> > > > for which I apologize, but Jay's remark about

> > the

> > > burden of proof

> > > > being on those who do not believe made me

> > chuckle.

> > > Forgive me for

> > > > being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are an

> > > infinite number of

> > > > hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could

> > make

> > > up a few on the spot

> > > > if you want, but here's one the philosopher

> > > Bertrand used to

> > > > illustrate the same point:

> > > >

> > > > What if I believed there was a china teapot

> > > orbiting the sun between

> > > > Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be seen

> > > by even the most

> > > > powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove its

> > > existence. What if I

> > > > said that since the teapot's existence cannot be

> > > disproved, it is

> > > > rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question its

> > > existence? Everyone

> > > > would think I was crazy. If, however, the

> > > existence of such a teapot

> > > > was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the

> > > sacred truth every

> > > > Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children

> > > at school, NOT

> > > > believing in its existence would be regarded as

> > > eccentric or mad.

> > > > " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted and

> > > tortured for daring to

> > > > question the existence of the teapot.

> > > >

> > > > We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In fact,

> > we

> > > are all atheists

> > > > when it comes to most supernatural myths. Who

> > here

> > > believes in Thor?

> > > > Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun god?

> > Each

> > > of these has their

> > > > own suppporting " evidence " in the form of

> > ancient

> > > writings, so why not

> > > > believe in them? There are literally millions of

> > > gods that none of us

> > > > believe in. Some of us just go one god further.

> > > >

> > > > And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does contain

> > > some historical

> > > > information that is backed up by other sources,

> > > giving those passages

> > > > some historical credence, there is no evidence

> > > whatsoever for things

> > > > like the Earth being created in 6 days. On the

> > > other hand, there are

> > > > mountains of evidence (and I mean that both

> > > figuratively and literally

> > > > - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth is

> > > several billion years

> > > > old. If you choose to believe otherwise, then

> > that

> > > is your choice. You

> > > > are even free to believe in the teapot if you

> > > want. Indeed, I

> > > > fervently support your right to do so. But it is

> > > ridiculous to claim

> > > > that the burden of proof is on those who do not

> > > believe in a given

> > > > myth. Science has better things to do with its

> > > time than that. Curing

> > > > SMA, for one.

> > > >

> > > > I expect I'll be accused of arrogance for saying

> > > this. Oh well, I've

> > > > been called worse. I would simply reply that if

> > > there is anything

> > > > arrogant in the world, surely it is religion,

> > > which claims to have all

> > > > the answers - absolute truth - and actively

> > > discourages doubt.

> > > > Science, on the other hand, is humble. It says:

> > > " We know nothing. But

> > > > let's look at the evidence and see what it tells

> > > us. "

> > > >

> > > > Not so long ago, the purveyors of " absolute

> > truth "

> > > would have looked

> > > > at my daughter with her floppy arms and legs and

> > > told me that she was

> > > > inhabited by an evil spirit, or by Satan, or

> > even

> > > that she was a

> > > > witch. They would have recommended " curing " her

> > by

> > > exorcism or

> > > > drowning her in a ducking stool. Science has

> > shown

> > > that there is

> > > > nothing more sinister about her than a missing

> > > gene. What's more, it

> > > > is beginning to find ways that her missing gene

> > > could be replaced or

> > > > circumvented. As if that were not enough, it has

> > > also shown that

> > > > everyone has missing genes - providing cast-iron

> > > evidence against

> > > > discrimination and in favor of equality.

> > > >

> > > > Jay mentioned Carl Sagan's figure of 1 in

> > 20000...

> > > (there were lots of

> > > > zeroes, I don't remember how many) of life

> > > existing on Earth, which

> > > > Nick rightly countered with the point that there

> > > are so many planets

> > > > in the universe that it's not so improbable for

> > it

> > > to have happened

> > > > somewhere, and maybe not just on Earth. To

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/2006 8:59:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

mongomustgolf@... writes:

absolutely no

question that abortion is wrong. Perhaps those who

think they're Pro-choice just haven't experienced the

true magic - miracle - of birth - and just don't know

I am pro-choice and have 2 kids I very well could've died for. I was once

very opposed to abortion - even now, the idea makes my stomach churn. I do know

the miracle, especially considering my circumstances, but I also admit not

everyone who gets pregnant should have kids.

Amy

Wife to Will 11/3/95

Mama to Olivia Isabelle 9/18/03 - she's two!

http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/o/oliviathegreat/

Phineas Maximilian 11/30/05 - he's here!

http://babiesonline.com/babies/m/mama20305/

[Guest guest]

But, then we're letting everyone play God. Everyone can decide what an

acceptable life is based upon their own " feelings " . " Feelings " are

emotions which aren't only different from person to person, but also

vary within each individual. You can't trust emotions. It needs to be

based upon moral principles. Our self centered society tells us it's

about " me " . However, this situation is not about " me " , it's about

another person...the baby.

You see, the trouble with your theory is that it all becomes

relative...and the question then becomes " where do you draw the line " .

What is considered fine to one person may be considered " misery " to

someone else. The line keeps moving, and the reasoning/excuses keep

growing and the next thing you know you have the situation in China:

It's OK to abort perfectly fine female babies because it would be a

public disgrace (i.e. misery) for me if I don't have a male baby.

When you crack the door open even slightly, the flood gates eventually

open too.

Jay

Re: Re: OT religion and me/meg

Some children though are carried to term with a zero chance of life.

Theres is always exceptions abortion theories. Theres no reason to give

birth to a brain dead child unless your giving him/her for organ

donation, because otherwise its just undue stress on the mothers body.

Everyone is entitled to their own view. Some people would rather see

the no pain or trama than to put the child into a life of misery. Not

saying all disablity is misery, but we all know many child never are

able to function to any degree.

Doug

<mongomustgolf@...> wrote: The reason for

prenatal testing will be, at some point

in the near future, for the pregnant Mommy to start

taking 'supplements' for her baby - so that SMA never

is allowed to attack her child's survival motor

neurons. Also, once the precious child is born,

immediate supplementation of flSMN upregulating

medication.

Regardless one's view on religion, politics, etc. -

once you've had your own child - or witnessed the

birth of your own child, there is absolutely no

question that abortion is wrong. Perhaps those who

think they're Pro-choice just haven't experienced the

true magic - miracle - of birth - and just don't know.

Prior to the birth of my beautiful children, I suppose

I simply had no position on abortion. I was just a

dumb guy who worked a lot - tried to play as much golf

as possible - and somehow seemingly enjoyed being a

Cleveland, Ohio professional sports team fan (which in

case you're wondering, is NOT a pretty thing - last

major championship was in 1964). After getting

married - a year or so later and being part of the

birth of my son, I knew. Without a doubt. I knew.

Anything that is contrary to the birth of a child

(regardless all of the nonsensical definitions of when

the fetus becomes a child, etc.) - is plain Wrong.

That said, I am 100% for pre-natal testing - it will

only help to address SMA in young babies at the very

possible moment. Mitch

--- ChrisN1220@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/18/2006 8:24:27 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> pink-tulip@... writes:

>

> What if your gf or wife was pregnant and the fetus

> was tested positive for

> some serious disease, like SMA, or something worse.

> Would you choose to

> abort it?

>

>

>

> The reasons for testing go far beyond THIS choice.

> It's important to

> know. If your baby has a heart defect, you need

> to deliver in a Hospital that

> is equipped, rather than airlift the poor newborn

> to a major city......

> So many people say " I don't want a pre-natal test

> b/c I would NEVER abort " .

> Well, there's so much more to it, like saving the

> life of your baby!

> ~

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Even had I known that my kids would be born with SMA -

my son Bryce has SMA and my daughter is asymptomatic

(though she has the homozygous SMN1 deletion) - and

all that went with it - I would want no other children

than my children.

Had we known, via pre-natal testing for example, and,

coupled with the fact that my wife's first cousin lost

her son Devon Caron to SMA Type 1 in 2003 shortly

after his 1st birthday - would you presuppose we

would've considered aborting our children!? Based on

the set of knowledge available at the time that seems

to be whats could be suggested. I'd just assume not

be alive myself without my children.

I repeat - my children are 100% perfect. SMA can FUCK

off!

Apologies to the language used - but to be perfectly

honest - that's exactly how I feel.

The fact a child has (or will be born with) a

neurodegenerative disease does not affect who he/she

is, what their potential in life is, his/her 'value'

to society now and the future, or whether or not the

would-be parents should consider abortion as an

option.

Contrary to your comment that some people may not want

to 'put the child into a life of misery' or their

child endure 'pain or trama' - what is more miserable

- being alive or dead? I choose being alive - and I

think all of the babies with SMA that fought - Yes -

fought with all they had - fought to live and still

died tragically young would completely disagree with

you. The beauty of these young lives lost just cannot

be captured with pictures or stories - it supercedes

anything I know of...

Yes, people do have their own ideas and opinions - and

they're certainly entitled to them. I'm not God - or

some convergance of Truth in Science (or whatever) -

in thinking that I can tell another person you must

believe the way that I do, etc. - I don't, won't, but

will comment based on my own experience. I'd be

willing to bet that well over 90% of folks claiming to

be Pro-Choice - have not had a child of their own, or

witnessed the birth of their own child.

Me - I'd have my children no other way. Mitch

--- Doug Blackman <never_wins_any@...> wrote:

> I dont follow what you are saying though. Do your

> kids have sma and

> you dont mind or do you and they dont? Sma can fuck

> off doesnt explain

> anything srry.

>

> Doug

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > >

> > > > > All I can say is that your Evolutionary

> theory

> > > > requires faith in

> > > > > numerous assumptions to make sense of only 1

> > > thing

> > > > - how it all started.

> > > > > I'll continue to have faith in 1 assumption

> -

> > > that

> > > > God started it, and

> > > > > then everything else makes sense.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which takes more faith?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > We can go back and forth, and 'round an

> 'round

> > > on

> > > > this topic, but we're

> > > > > all on the same page with SMA. Find a way

> to

> > > help

> > > > our kids stay

> > > > > healthy, find a treatment to make them

> stronger,

> > > > and find a cure so we

> > > > > can eliminate the disease and shout for joy

> > > > together!

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for an interesting discussion on the

> off

> > > > topic subject!

> > > > >

> > > > > Jay

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: OT religion and

> me/meg

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is the second time I've broken a

> promise

> > > not

> > > > to comment further,

> > > > > for which I apologize, but Jay's remark

> about

> > > the

> > > > burden of proof

> > > > > being on those who do not believe made me

> > > chuckle.

> > > > Forgive me for

> > > > > being blunt, but that's nonsense. There are

> an

> > > > infinite number of

> > > > > hypotheses that cannot be disproved. I could

> > > make

> > > > up a few on the spot

> > > > > if you want, but here's one the philosopher

> > > > Bertrand used to

> > > > > illustrate the same point:

> > > > >

> > > > > What if I believed there was a china teapot

> > > > orbiting the sun between

> > > > > Earth and Mars? A teapot is too small to be

> seen

> > > > by even the most

> > > > > powerful telescope, so no-one could disprove

> its

> > > > existence. What if I

> > > > > said that since the teapot's existence

> cannot be

> > > > disproved, it is

> > > > > rude/stupid/arrogant for anyone to question

> its

> > > > existence? Everyone

> > > > > would think I was crazy. If, however, the

> > > > existence of such a teapot

> > > > > was affirmed in ancient books, taught as the

> > > > sacred truth every

> > > > > Sunday, and instilled into the minds of

> children

> > > > at school, NOT

> > > > > believing in its existence would be regarded

> as

> > > > eccentric or mad.

> > > > > " Teapot heretics " might even be persecuted

> and

> > > > tortured for daring to

> > > > > question the existence of the teapot.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are all teapot atheists (I think!). In

> fact,

> > > we

> > > > are all atheists

> > > > > when it comes to most supernatural myths.

> Who

> > > here

> > > > believes in Thor?

> > > > > Zeus? Ra? Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec sun

> god?

> > > Each

> > > > of these has their

> > > > > own suppporting " evidence " in the form of

> > > ancient

> > > > writings, so why not

> > > > > believe in them? There are literally

> millions of

> > > > gods that none of us

> > > > > believe in. Some of us just go one god

> further.

> > > > >

> > > > > And sorry, Jay, but while the Bible does

> contain

> > > > some historical

> > > > > information that is backed up by other

> sources,

> > > > giving those passages

> > > > > some historical credence, there is no

> evidence

> > > > whatsoever for things

> > > > > like the Earth being created in 6 days. On

> the

> > > > other hand, there are

> > > > > mountains of evidence (and I mean that both

> > > > figuratively and literally

> > > > > - just look at Mt. Everest) that the Earth

> is

> > > > several billion years

> > > > > old. If you choose to believe otherwise,

> then

> > > that

> > > > is your choice. You

> > > > > are even free to believe in the teapot if

> you

> > > > want. Indeed, I

> > > > > fervently support your right to do so. But

> it is

> > > > ridiculous to claim

> > > > > that the burden of proof is on those who do

> not

>

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