Re: More On Stretching - Therapeutic paradigm

[Guest guest]

I was doing yard work, and thinking about this case scenario:

> > Additionally, a baseball player that I work with is

> > very tight in pec. minor and the scalene muscles. So

> > much so that they are point tender and require some

> > trigger point / myofascial release.

This seems like a case where I would be very wary of assuming that

the problem is lack of ROM in those 'tight' muscles. As my Yoga

teacher often said, " the muscle that hurts is almost never the

problem " . Why? Well, it may well be that the only reason those

muscles get cramped up and painful is that they are overworked due to

flawed postural or movement patterns, which require them to do more

than their share, and their relative length is far from the root of

the problem. The fact that they hurt indicates that they are

probably doing their job, and then some. Stretching and pulling on

them may only add insult to injury.

Instead, I would look for other muscles that are involved in

stabilizing and mobilizing the shoulder that aren't doing their job,

and find a way to transform the movement or holding pattern such that

they become activated - this is the nature of Yoga as a therapy (or

at least it can be, even though it often is just a bunch of

stretching). I would look into testing the trainee's ability to

stabilize the shoulder. Busting the weight down on shoulder girdle

exercises and shoulder stabilizing isometrics, and requiring

militantly strict form is a way to strengthen weak links without

complicated muscle-by-muscle analysis. And, get video footage to

analyze his exercise and performance movements for problems with form

that could be corrected with coaching tips, or assisted with pre-

activity exercises to wake up lazy muscles.

Wilbanks

ville, FL

> > ,

> >

> > Thanks a lot for your reply. I can see that you have

> > given this topic a lot of thought! I have some of the

> > same concerns that you do, though I do like to have my

> > athletes stretch after a work out in areas that need

> > specific attention based on a pre training evaluation.

> >

> > For instance - one of athletes that works with me has

> > problems with lateral patellar tracking. His quads

> > are over developed and the VMO is under developed.

> > One of the methods that brings relief is patellar

> > mobilizations (we are also working on strengthening

> > the VMO).

> >

> > Additionally, a baseball player that I work with is

> > very tight in pec. minor and the scalene muscles. So

> > much so that they are point tender and require some

> > trigger point / myofacial release.

> >

> > Third, a sprinter that I work with will, after a hill

> > work out or heavy sprint day have some mild lower back

> > pain. This is relieved not by stretching his lower

> > back, but by stretching his hip flexors.

> >

> > Would you agree that these instances require some type

> > of flexibility training?

> >

> > Also, Bompa states in " Theory and Methodology of

> > Training " (page 317, 3rd ed.) that flexibility... " is a

> > prerequisite to the performance of skills with high

> > amplitude and increases the ease with which fast

> > movements may be performed. The success of performing

> > such movements depends on the joint amplitude, or

> > range of motion, which has to be higher than that

> > required by the movement. Thus, there is a need for a

> > flexibility reserve, which as to be developed... "

> >

> > I agree with you that sending out trainers to apply

> > flexibility techniques that are unwarranted is poor

> > form, but would you agree that flexibility needs to be

> > trained to at least some extent based on the above

> > examples? Could other members of the group please

> > comment?

> >

> > Mark Shropshire, MS, CCS

[Guest guest]

Hi !

I agree that flexibility is the most misunderstood area of fitness. I

re-read the stretching chapter in the Essentials text by Holcomb and

would offer the following observations to your criticisms.

1. Certainly as we get older, range of motion(ROM) is lost in the

inactive population. Stretching activities are warranted when less

than normal ROM is present. This is determined by the

individuals needs analysis and testing just as you would for strength,

endurance ect.. Those with normal ROM need not spend time on formal

stretching programs as long as their strength, endurance, and warm-up

exercises are carried through their pain free, available ROM. Some

activities require more range of motion in certain joints. For

example, gymnasts, olympic weightlifters, and the throwing shoulders of

baseball pitchers. These athletes generally perform some specific

activities during warm-up to achieve and maintain the necessary ROM

for the activity.

2. Repetitive activities carried through less than normal ROM may

decrease normal ROM if some other activity is not done that includes

normal range of motion. For example recently I have been working on my

lockout in the bench press. I discontinued doing the full

bench press movement for a few months and found that I had difficulty

getting the bar to my chest unless I totally relaxed near the bottom

of the movement. I had lost some active ROM by exclusively performing

the lift through a limited ROM.

3. PNF patterns were employed almost exclusively in therapy for the

first twenty years after the works of Knott & Voss and Sherrington

were published. PNF was first seen in athletics during the nineteen

seventies so it did expand into athletics much later than in therapy.

4. While the section on PNF is abbreviated and modified I could find

little wrong with the section.

5. The static stretching exercises illustrated at the end of the

chapter are quite standard and pose no hazards to healthy individuals

when performed properly.

6. Stretching is like other types of fitness in that if you have

adequate amounts for the activities you wish to perform, it is not

necessary to spend a great deal of time performing anything other than

maintance activities. Additional ROM may not be benificial and some

studies have shown negative effects of excessive ROM.

Best wishes and good luck on the CSCS exam.

Dan Wathen, Youngstown(OH) State University

In Supertraining@y..., " anatomist1 " <anatomist1@y...> wrote:

> I was doing yard work, and thinking about this case scenario:

>

> > > Additionally, a baseball player that I work with is

> > > very tight in pec. minor and the scalene muscles. So

> > > much so that they are point tender and require some

> > > trigger point / myofascial release.

>

> This seems like a case where I would be very wary of assuming that

> the problem is lack of ROM in those 'tight' muscles. As my Yoga

> teacher often said, " the muscle that hurts is almost never the

> problem " . Why? Well, it may well be that the only reason those

> muscles get cramped up and painful is that they are overworked due

to

> flawed postural or movement patterns, which require them to do more

> than their share, and their relative length is far from the root of

> the problem. The fact that they hurt indicates that they are

> probably doing their job, and then some. Stretching and pulling on

> them may only add insult to injury.

>

> Instead, I would look for other muscles that are involved in

> stabilizing and mobilizing the shoulder that aren't doing their job,

> and find a way to transform the movement or holding pattern such

that

> they become activated - this is the nature of Yoga as a therapy (or

> at least it can be, even though it often is just a bunch of

> stretching). I would look into testing the trainee's ability to

> stabilize the shoulder. Busting the weight down on shoulder girdle

> exercises and shoulder stabilizing isometrics, and requiring

> militantly strict form is a way to strengthen weak links without

> complicated muscle-by-muscle analysis. And, get video footage to

> analyze his exercise and performance movements for problems with

form

> that could be corrected with coaching tips, or assisted with pre-

> activity exercises to wake up lazy muscles.

>

> Wilbanks

> ville, FL

>

>

>

>

> > > ,

> > >

> > > Thanks a lot for your reply. I can see that you have

> > > given this topic a lot of thought! I have some of the

> > > same concerns that you do, though I do like to have my

> > > athletes stretch after a work out in areas that need

> > > specific attention based on a pre training evaluation.

> > >

> > > For instance - one of athletes that works with me has

> > > problems with lateral patellar tracking. His quads

> > > are over developed and the VMO is under developed.

> > > One of the methods that brings relief is patellar

> > > mobilizations (we are also working on strengthening

> > > the VMO).

> > >

> > > Additionally, a baseball player that I work with is

> > > very tight in pec. minor and the scalene muscles. So

> > > much so that they are point tender and require some

> > > trigger point / myofacial release.

> > >

> > > Third, a sprinter that I work with will, after a hill

> > > work out or heavy sprint day have some mild lower back

> > > pain. This is relieved not by stretching his lower

> > > back, but by stretching his hip flexors.

> > >

> > > Would you agree that these instances require some type

> > > of flexibility training?

> > >

> > > Also, Bompa states in " Theory and Methodology of

> > > Training " (page 317, 3rd ed.) that flexibility... " is a

> > > prerequisite to the performance of skills with high

> > > amplitude and increases the ease with which fast

> > > movements may be performed. The success of performing

> > > such movements depends on the joint amplitude, or

> > > range of motion, which has to be higher than that

> > > required by the movement. Thus, there is a need for a

> > > flexibility reserve, which as to be developed... "

> > >

> > > I agree with you that sending out trainers to apply

> > > flexibility techniques that are unwarranted is poor

> > > form, but would you agree that flexibility needs to be

> > > trained to at least some extent based on the above

> > > examples? Could other members of the group please

> > > comment?

> > >

> > > Mark Shropshire, MS, CCS

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the advice - I agree with you 100%. In

fact his lower traps are so weak that he struggles to

extend the shoulder in prone with only 1lb of

resistance. In addition to this his Rhomboids and

Seratus Anterior are also in poor shape, so your

presumption that the scalene and pec minor are doing

more than thier fair share of the work may be correct.

Although I think that if the scalenes and pec minor

are in spasm, they need to be brought under control

at the same time as the aformentioned muscles are

strengthened. As we progress I will monitor pain

levels and performance to see if I am correct. Thanks

again for your input.

Mark Shropshire MS CCS

Ellicott City, MD

--- anatomist1 <anatomist1@...> wrote:

> I was doing yard work, and thinking about this case

> scenario:

>

> > > Additionally, a baseball player that I work with

> is

> > > very tight in pec. minor and the scalene

> muscles. So

> > > much so that they are point tender and require

> some

> > > trigger point / myofascial release.

>

> This seems like a case where I would be very wary of

> assuming that

> the problem is lack of ROM in those 'tight' muscles.

> As my Yoga

> teacher often said, " the muscle that hurts is almost

> never the

> problem " . Why? Well, it may well be that the only

> reason those

> muscles get cramped up and painful is that they are

> overworked due to

> flawed postural or movement patterns, which require

> them to do more

> than their share, and their relative length is far

> from the root of

> the problem. The fact that they hurt indicates that

> they are

> probably doing their job, and then some. Stretching

> and pulling on

> them may only add insult to injury.

>

> Instead, I would look for other muscles that are

> involved in

> stabilizing and mobilizing the shoulder that aren't

> doing their job,

> and find a way to transform the movement or holding

> pattern such that

> they become activated - this is the nature of Yoga

> as a therapy (or

> at least it can be, even though it often is just a

> bunch of

> stretching). I would look into testing the

> trainee's ability to

> stabilize the shoulder. Busting the weight down on

> shoulder girdle

> exercises and shoulder stabilizing isometrics, and

> requiring

> militantly strict form is a way to strengthen weak

> links without

> complicated muscle-by-muscle analysis. And, get

> video footage to

> analyze his exercise and performance movements for

> problems with form

> that could be corrected with coaching tips, or

> assisted with pre-

> activity exercises to wake up lazy muscles.

>

> Wilbanks

> ville, FL

>

>

>

>

> > > ,

> > >

> > > Thanks a lot for your reply. I can see that you

> have

> > > given this topic a lot of thought! I have some

> of the

> > > same concerns that you do, though I do like to

> have my

> > > athletes stretch after a work out in areas that

> need

> > > specific attention based on a pre training

> evaluation.

> > >

> > > For instance - one of athletes that works with

> me has

> > > problems with lateral patellar tracking. His

> quads

> > > are over developed and the VMO is under

> developed.

> > > One of the methods that brings relief is

> patellar

> > > mobilizations (we are also working on

> strengthening

> > > the VMO).

> > >

> > > Additionally, a baseball player that I work with

> is

> > > very tight in pec. minor and the scalene

> muscles. So

> > > much so that they are point tender and require

> some

> > > trigger point / myofacial release.

> > >

> > > Third, a sprinter that I work with will, after a

> hill

> > > work out or heavy sprint day have some mild

> lower back

> > > pain. This is relieved not by stretching his

> lower

> > > back, but by stretching his hip flexors.

> > >

> > > Would you agree that these instances require

> some type

> > > of flexibility training?

> > >

> > > Also, Bompa states in " Theory and Methodology

> of

> > > Training " (page 317, 3rd ed.) that

> flexibility... " is a

> > > prerequisite to the performance of skills with

> high

> > > amplitude and increases the ease with which

> fast

> > > movements may be performed. The success of

> performing

> > > such movements depends on the joint amplitude,

> or

> > > range of motion, which has to be higher than

> that

> > > required by the movement. Thus, there is a need

> for a

> > > flexibility reserve, which as to be

> developed... "

> > >

> > > I agree with you that sending out trainers to

> apply

> > > flexibility techniques that are unwarranted is

> poor

> > > form, but would you agree that flexibility needs

> to be

> > > trained to at least some extent based on the

> above

> > > examples? Could other members of the group

> please

> > > comment?

> > >

> > > Mark Shropshire, MS, CCS

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dan Wathen wrote about the NSCA stretching notes:

< 5. The static stretching exercises illustrated at the end of the

chapter are quite standard and pose no hazards to healthy

individuals when performed properly.>

** This is merely an assertion. The fact that they are standard is

precisely the basis of my alarm. It may be true that lumbar

stretching doesn't cause any lasting harm to healthy people, for the

most part, but the same might also be said about getting whacked in

the shin with a billyclub or injesting a small quantity of Drain-O.

Lack of dire hazard isn't a sufficient standard to warrant

prescribing an activity. As far as 'properly' goes, I contest that

characterization of most of those stretches completely. The vast

majority of Americans have no reason to do spinal flexion stretches

at all.

Wilbanks

ville, FL

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