Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 While I'm complaining about information provided in the CSCS study materials (Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning), I'd like to say more on stretching. I think stretching is overrated and overprescribed by most of the current US fitness and rehabilitation world in general. Stretching is often presented as an unqualified good, where one is encouraged to assume any contorted position necessary to 'feel the stretch' in whichever muscle is the purported target of the stretch. What is usually missing is any justification for why a particular muscle is being stretched, or the purpose served by being able to assume contorted positions which one would never assume outside of stretching sessions. For instance, I often see people grasp a wall or rack and twist/lean their whole body into a 'shoulder stretch' in which the straightened arm is forced backward in an extremely abducted and flexed position. Why? If I want to manipulate something up and back there, especially something heavy, I turn around and re-orient my body so that my arm has better mechanical advantage and movement integrity. I have never in my life used my arm in the extremity of that motion range I already have, why do I need more? Conversely, I can often come up with plausible reasons as to why many stretches might be a bad idea. Stretching out ligaments and joint capsules which best remain tight top the list, as does putting unnecessary pressure on bursae. In fact, last I heard, pain and physical incapacity associated with exactly this kind of overstretching of the lumbar spinal joints is an epidemic in our society. Because of the prominence of chair-sitting (with poor posture) in the US workplace and other aspects of daily life, many people are stretching the blazes out of their lower back in the direction of flexion all day long. Why then, do half the stretches depicted in the CSCS manual emphasize stretching 'the spinal erectors' (Semi-Leg Straddle, Semi-Straddle (figure four), Straddle (spread eagle), and the Sitting Toe Touch)? It also posits the 'Sit and Reach Test' as a valid measure of overall body flexibility, which is absurd - I strive never to assume that position and advise anyone who enjoys a healthy, functioning spine to do the same. I will never administer that test to anyone. I have only met one person of non-geriatric age who needed more flexion flexibility in his spine - it made him unable to curve his back sufficiently to fall smoothly in Aikido. Other than such peculiar instances, I would say the last thing in the world most Americans need is to 'stretch their spinal erectors'. If they are listening, I advise the NSCA authorities to reconsider those sections of the book, and their entire stretching paradigm. Wilbanks ville, FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2002 Report Share Posted March 30, 2002 , Is your argument against stretching in general, the NSCA position on stretching, or just stretching the spinal erectors? Perhaps Dr Siff can shed some light on this, but I was under the impression that stretching between sets of lifts aid in recovery and also assists in performing the next set - since a lengthened muscle is capable of more force production than than one that is shortened. Please comment. [if anything there is research which indicates that stretching between heavy efforts tends to diminish power and force output. Moreover, there appears to be no research to show that stretching enhances or accelerates recovery. It is probably preferable to simply move around or carry our light or unloaded actions of many limbs between lifts. Mel Siff] Mark Shropshire, MS, CCS Ellicott City, MD ------------- anatomist1 <anatomist1@...> wrote: > While I'm complaining about information provided in the CSCS study > materials (Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning), I'd > like to say more on stretching. I think stretching is overrated and > over prescribed by most of the current US fitness and rehabilitation > world in general. Stretching is often presented as an unqualified > good, where one is encouraged to assume any contorted position > necessary to 'feel the stretch' in whichever muscle is the purported > target of the stretch. What is usually missing is any justification > for why a particular muscle is being stretched, or the purpose served > by being able to assume contorted positions which one would never > assume outside of stretching sessions. > > For instance, I often see people grasp a wall or > rack and twist/lean their whole body into > a 'shoulder stretch' in which the straightened arm > is forced backward > in an extremely abducted and flexed position. Why? > If I want to > manipulate something up and back there, especially > something heavy, I > turn around and re-orient my body so that my arm > has better > mechanical advantage and movement integrity. I have > never in my life > used my arm in the extremity of that motion range I > already have, why > do I need more? > > Conversely, I can often come up with plausible > reasons as to why many > stretches might be a bad idea. Stretching out > ligaments and joint > capsules which best remain tight top the list, as > does putting > unnecessary pressure on bursae. In fact, last I > heard, pain and > physical incapacity associated with exactly this > kind of > over stretching of the lumbar spinal joints is an > epidemic in our > society. Because of the prominence of chair-sitting > (with poor > posture) in the US workplace and other aspects of > daily life, many > people are stretching the blazes out of their lower > back in the > direction of flexion all day long. > > Why then, do half the stretches depicted in the CSCS > manual emphasize stretching 'the spinal > erectors' (Semi-Leg Straddle, Semi-Straddle (figure > four), Straddle > (spread eagle), and the Sitting Toe Touch)? It also > posits the 'Sit > and Reach Test' as a valid measure of overall body > flexibility, which > is absurd - I strive never to assume that position > and advise anyone > who enjoys a healthy, functioning spine to do the > same. I will never > administer that test to anyone. > > I have only met one person of non-geriatric age who > needed more > flexion flexibility in his spine - it made him > unable to curve his > back sufficiently to fall smoothly in Aikido. Other > than such > peculiar instances, I would say the last thing in > the world most > Americans need is to 'stretch their spinal > erectors'. If they are > listening, I advise the NSCA authorities to > reconsider those sections of the > book, and their entire stretching paradigm. > > Wilbanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2002 Report Share Posted March 31, 2002 Mark Shropshire <ragnar30@y...> wrote: -- Is your argument against stretching in general, the NSCA position on stretching, or just stretching the spinal erectors? Perhaps Dr Siff can shed some light on this, but I was under the impression that stretching between sets of lifts aid in recovery and also assists in performing the next set - since a lengthened muscle is capable of more force production than than one that is shortened. Please comment. Mel Siff: [if anything there is research which indicates that stretching between heavy efforts tends to diminish power and force output. Moreover, there appears to be no research to show that stretching enhances or accelerates recovery. It is probably preferable to simply move around or carry our light or unloaded actions of many limbs between lifts.] ****I can remember from my undergraduate studies I completed a study - 'active versus passive effects on peak power in consecutive cycle sprints.' I can certainly remember reading that stretching between heavy efforts could lead to a diminish power and force output. I don't have the actual reference though. Nevertheless, research seems to indicate that passive (moving around / light unloaded actions - as Mel states) may be beneficial to performance: Little is known about what happens during recovery period (Cumming, 1972, Journal of Applied Physiology, 32, 575-578); in fact, all that is known is that light exercise should be performed during the recovery period to enhance lactate removal, normalise blood and muscle aid balance (deVries, 1980, Physiology of exercise for physical education and athletics). Some studies have found that recovery of power output during repeated sprint exercise is enhanced when low intensity exercise is performed between sprints: Ahmaidi et al., 1996, Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise, 28 (4), 450-456; Bogdanis et al., 1996, European Journal of Applied Physiology, 74(5), 461-469; Conolly, 1997, Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise, 29(5)). ------ Hope these references may be of some help Carruthers Wakefield UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2002 Report Share Posted March 31, 2002 To some extent, I'm arguing against all 3. My problem with stretching in general is that people tend to do too much of it without specific purpose, and it is thought to have myriad benefits, which is unwarranted. For instance, is a stretch being done to increase ROM, or as some kind of vague health tonic? If it is to increase ROM, what is the need for this added ROM, and what is the goal? As far as it's value as a tonic, we've already crossed off performance and recovery enhancement, and ROM maintenance from the list. What's left? With all the musculoskeletal injury problems I have ever had, including tendonitis, back problems, and chronic muscle tears, almost everywhere I turned, stretching was advocated. In the end, I don't think stretching ever helped one iota. In fact, hypermobility and instability in my hips and feet were part of the problem. It wasn't until a yoga teacher got me to aim for strength and stability that I got lasting freedom from a plague of overuse problems. Some stretches would have been directly opposed to that work. For instance, I had a habit of externally rotating my right hip in conjunction with letting the arch of my right foot collapse. Through asanas and constant attention to my posture and movement, I learned to habitually activate or 'tighten up' many muscle groups that were formerly flaccid and lazy - today my right arch works and my leg tracks straight. With regards to the adductors and internal rotators, doing a stretch like the butterfly stretch would have been to apply effort in the exact opposite direction of what helped me. With regards to the lower back, I think many people have a problem similar to my lower limb difficulties: the spinal erectors are habituated to being inactive and stretched, and are neglecting their job of maintaining a healthy gentle lordotic curve in the lumbar. What most people need is proprioceptive training in what it feels like to sit and move around with the spinal erectors and other muscles active and doing their job properly, along with isometric endurance work to increase the muscles capability to do that job. What they DON'T need is to stretch them. In the best case, it is a waste of time. At worst, it is counterproductive, and possibly compounding damage to the intervertebral joint tissues. Given the epidemic of back pain in our society, having the NSCA sending fitness trainers out into the world advocating unconsidered stretching, particularly of the spinal erectors, is like having medical schools teaching doctors to hand out free packs of cigarettes with each clinic visit. Wilbanks ville, FL ------- Mark Shropshire <ragnar30@y...> wrote: > -- Is your argument against stretching in general, the > NSCA position on stretching, or just stretching the > spinal erectors? Perhaps Dr Siff can shed some light > on this, but I was under the impression that > stretching between sets of lifts aid in recovery and > also assists in performing the next set - since a > lengthened muscle is capable of more force production > than than one that is shortened. Please comment. > > [if anything there is research which indicates that stretching > between heavy efforts tends to diminish power and force > output. Moreover, there appears to be no research to show that stretching > enhances or accelerates recovery. It is probably preferable to simply > move around or carry our light or unloaded actions of many limbs > between lifts. Mel Siff] > > Mark Shropshire, MS, CCS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2002 Report Share Posted March 31, 2002 Is that decrease in power true even if the stretches are of short (5-10 sec) duration? Is the mechanism of the reduced power output neural - in effect stimulating the GTO with prolonged stretch? I am curious as to how this works. Thank you in advance for your reply. [it is highly likely that this effect is neural because persistent mechanical deformation of the connective tissues achieved by typical gym stretches is likely to be minimal or non-existent. " Supertraining " Ch 3 gives far more information on the different stretch reflexes, as does a whole section in Guyton's " Textbook on Medical Physiology " Mel Siff] Mark Shropshire MS, CCS Ellicott City, MD ---------- Mark Shropshire <ragnar30@...> wrote: > -- Is your argument against stretching in general, the > NSCA position on stretching, or just stretching the > spinal erectors? Perhaps Dr. Siff can shed some light > on this, but I was under the impression that > stretching between sets of lifts aid in recovery and > also assists in performing the next set - since a > lengthened muscle is capable of more force > production than than one that is shortened. Please comment. > > [if anything there is research which indicates that stretching > between heavy efforts tends to diminish power and force > output. Moreover, there appears to be no research to show that stretching > enhances or accelerates recovery. It is probably preferable to simply > move around or carry our light or unloaded actions of many limbs > between lifts. Mel Siff] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2002 Report Share Posted March 31, 2002 , Thank you for the information - I'll try to find the article / justification for stretching between sets. It's funny how somethings stick with you even though they may be incorrect. Again, thank you to the Supertrainers that participate and to Dr. Siff for providing this forum. Mark Shropshire MS CCS Ellicott City, MD --- carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@...> wrote: > Mark Shropshire <ragnar30@y...> wrote: > > -- Is your argument against stretching in > general, the > NSCA position on stretching, or just stretching the > spinal erectors? Perhaps Dr Siff can shed some > light > on this, but I was under the impression that > stretching between sets of lifts aid in recovery and > also assists in performing the next set - since a > lengthened muscle is capable of more force > production > than than one that is shortened. Please comment. > > Mel Siff: > > [if anything there is research which indicates that > stretching > between heavy efforts tends to diminish power and > force output. > Moreover, there appears to be no research to show > that stretching > enhances or accelerates recovery. It is probably > preferable to > simply move around or carry our light or unloaded > actions of many > limbs between lifts.] > > ****I can remember from my undergraduate studies I > completed a study - > 'active versus passive effects on peak power in > consecutive cycle > sprints.' I can certainly remember reading that > stretching between > heavy efforts could lead to a diminish power and > force output. I > don't have the actual reference though. > Nevertheless, research seems > to indicate that passive (moving around / light > unloaded actions - as > Mel states) may be beneficial to performance: > > Little is known about what happens during recovery > period (Cumming, > 1972, Journal of Applied Physiology, 32, 575-578); > in fact, all that > is known is that light exercise should be performed > during the > recovery period to enhance lactate removal, > normalise blood and > muscle aid balance (deVries, 1980, Physiology of > exercise for > physical education and athletics). > > Some studies have found that recovery of power > output during repeated > sprint exercise is enhanced when low intensity > exercise is performed > between sprints: > > Ahmaidi et al., 1996, Medicine and Science in Sport > and Exercise, 28 > (4), 450-456; > > Bogdanis et al., 1996, European Journal of Applied > Physiology, 74(5), > 461-469; > > Conolly, 1997, Medicine and Science in Sport and > Exercise, 29(5)). > > ------ > > Hope these references may be of some help > > Carruthers > Wakefield > UK > > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 The point about people not knowing the rationale behind a particular stretch is well made. Ask most people to stretch their hamstrings and they will lean forward round backed, with their arms and hands in front. If they can touch their toes, they are pleased and think it means their hamstrings are loose. Yet I have coached and trained with many competittors in a wide variety of sports who have problems when asked to keep the back straight as they bend over and place the weight on their heels (pushing their glutes backwards) so as to actually stretch their hamstrings - most can't even get to where their upper bodies are parallel with the ground. I have concluded that, unless I've interpreted things wrong, many people have flexible lower backs but tight hamstrings. Nic Oliver ..... UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Nic Wrote: > > Yet I have coached and trained with many > competittors in a wide variety > of sports who have problems when asked to keep the > back straight as they > bend over and place the weight on their heels > (pushing their glutes > backwards) so as to actually stretch their > hamstrings - most can't even > get to where their upper bodies are parallel with > the ground. > > I have concluded that, unless I've interpreted > things wrong, many people > have flexible lower backs but tight hamstrings. > > Nic Oliver > .... UK > > They may have poor lower abdominal strength and tight hip flexors pulling them into anterior pelvic tilt drawing the hamstrings taut. Just a thought.... Mark Shropshire, MS CCS Ellicott City, MD USA > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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