Vertical Shin Squats on Heels?

[Guest guest]

To all, regarding the squat and power clean as the Nebraska Cornhusker

strength program. They (UN) used to show pictures (before and after) of their

players from freshman to senior year and some made incredible gain in body

weight and strength compared with the start. They compiled an incredible

record in their conference, but were consistanly beaten by Miami and FSU in

the 90s with speed, quickness, and sometimes smaller athletes. They changed

their attitude and started recruiting or implementing speed and quickness in

addition to power and won 2 National Championships. So maybe the implementation

of a power program is excellent but the athletes still have to perform on

the field, hence the need for the onfield drills to convert the abilities in

the wr to the playing arena.

[Performance does not necessarily provide any valid answer to the scientific

questions that

various list members have been asking. Other members may well suggest that the

crafty

use of AA steroids may explain excellence of results more than any science.

Several other

such arguments may be propounded, but let's try to focus on the science of

squatting rather

than who squats what and wins what. Now that we have put aside those red

herrings, how

about some scientific commentaries on how to squat and how the shins should be

located? Mel Siff]

Charlie Newkerk, C.S.C.S.

Rockledge, Fl

newkfit@...

-----------

Mims wrote:

> I learned my strength training techniques from the

> Nebraska Cornhuskers. I think their record speaks for

> itself. My statements are exactly how they teach it.

> All I was trying to do was help a young man who

> couldn't do a full squat.

Mel Siff wrote:

> [Maybe then you could refer 's analysis to some of those intrepid

> Cornhuskers to let them explain the biomechanics involved and why

> their methods may have produced some of the strongest lifters in the

> world, especially in the full depth squat. Or even better, please send

> me JPG photos of some of the Cornhuskers at the bottom of a loaded

> full squat and I will place them in our photo Files for all list members

> to judge for themselves.]

>

> Casler writes:

>

> , I felt that your assertions were of that type. I know that over

> the years we all have had various types of explanation, education,

> guidance and experiences from a wealth of different sources. Some of

> these " building blocks " of our present awareness are strong and stand

> any type of scrutiny, others are wafer thin and soon crumble to dust.

>

> Of course it is difficult to argue with results, but the " stimulus " to

> the response may be unknown or misunderstood. That means that we should

> still provide a questioning look at the " cause " of any result we may

> obtain, observe or be informed of. Our field is fraught with " beliefs " ,

> theories and assumptions that have yet to be proven. This list and

> others like it, offer a wealth of opinion and experience, as well as

> reports on research and established theory from the learned and the

> novice.

>

> It also offers a " sounding board " to question and analyze the

> perceptions and beliefs of others. This is a " digestive " process. We

> need to " chew " on some of the tougher parts in order for them to be

> digested and assimilated into our own systems. Our maps are constantly

> changing and being re-drawn.

>

> For literally years, I advised against holding one's breath at any time

> during exercise. Now I know that controlled intra-thoracic pressure is

> a valuable function in many actions and explain it as such. There are

> NO absolutes!

>

> Only recently we saw a thread that listed myths in bodybuilding in a

> tongue in cheek manner. We have to realize that " all " strength sports

> are still in their infancy and as far as scientific conciliation there

> are large gaps between the practitioners/coaches and the

> researchers/scientist.

>

> I trust my questioning was not too contentious, but as information is

> passed that does not coincide with my own awareness I tend to question

> it. In some instances it is a matter of clarification, in others the

> information itself is inaccurate. It only makes sense to explore the

> meaning and assess its validity and value.

>

> Next time I see Boyd, I'll ask him to demonstrate a " vertical shin "

> squat.

[Guest guest]

I find that very interesting. The comment about blown patellas comes

from Louie and he said it under the context that before the big switch

to wide, vertical shin squatting, he can't count how many times people

blew their patella tendons. No problems now. Matt Dimel blew both of

his. Louie I think said he blew both but it might have been just one, I

can't remember.

I suppose the reason Olympic lifters didn't see this is because they

probably don't spend nearly as much time under maximal weights (and

beyond maximal weights).

[Maximal weights do not necessarily mean maximal FORCE, and it is force,

and RFD (Rate of Force Development) which are more fundamentally the

cause of overload injury. Biomechanical studies have shown that greater

peak force, power and RFD occur in Weightlifting. Mel Siff]

Another possibility was a question I asked you a little while back about

steroids and tendons. When I talked about this with my track coach, he

said he has read research that found steroids making ligament tissue

brittle. But if I remember correctly, you said you weren't aware of any

such findings.

[Your recollections are totally incorrect - if you read various articles that I

have written on muscle and connective tissue over the past 20 years, you will

note

that I cite research which suggests that steroid use may compromise the strength

of the musculotendinous zone, possibly because connective tissue adapts more

slowly to stress than muscle tissue. Anyway, if someone stated that steroids

made

tissues " brittle " I definitely would state that histological analysis has not

shown

this to be true, because viscoelastic soft tissues do not become " brittle " like

solids.

You coach was simply responding with the usual sort of popularised answer. Mel

Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

----------Original Message ------

Mel Siff:

<Clinical findings do not find a higher incidence of patellar tendon

or ligament damage among Olympic weightlifters. >

** Note very well that these clinical studies referred to Weightlifters

and were published in World Weightlifting, the official IWF journal, and

in International Olympic Lifter (IOL), not powerlifters.

[Guest guest]

Re: Vertical Shin Squats on Heels?

Dmitry Voronov wrote:

OOOH, I know I'll just get another ribbing for getting into this one but

I just have to. This is something that was directly discussed by Dave

Tate.

<snip> Dave said (even though this is absolutely obvious to me, I'm

only saying this so I don't get harassed for more " scientific proof " , if

you want proof, go talk to Dave) that hamstrings, glutes and lower back

is what squats, not quadriceps.

<snip>Keeping the shins vertical and leaning forward stresses the

powerlifting

muscles (which is 100% possible, I can send you a video of me doing it,

or better yet, buy Westside's squatting tape and see the big guns do it,

some to WELL below parallel). That, along with a wide stance makes it

tough to go down below parallel.

Casler writes:

I think we must acknowledge that a very specific " powerlifitng " super

wide, stance can allow the shins to remain totally vertical since the

wide stance puts the ankle well into plantar flexion before the lift

begins.. This stance however should be specific to the sport of

powerlifting and has less value in a general or sports conditioning

application. There are very few sports that place one in such a wide

stance for a dynamic or even a static application.

In giving advice for specific exercises I think we might be best served

if we include our " biases " or proclivities. The strength sports may in

some instances have exercise performance specifics that are less

applicable to general training or sports conditioning. Then on the

other hand, some are " VERY " applicable.

By the way Dmitry, I prefer to do " my " Close grip Bench Presses with a

" thumbless and fingerless " non-grip. That is it just rests on my palms.

It is a " feel " thing. Anything wider that shoulder width however is

" full grip " . Go figure?

Regards,

A. Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com/index.html

[Guest guest]

> In the coaching world Nebraska is regarded as having

> the best strength and conditioning program in the

> nation. Ask your coaches if you don't believe me.

> Everybody tries to mimmick them to some degree. I

> understand that great lifters are not necessarily

> great football players, but it damn sure can't hurt.

>

***** I mean to take nothing away fom the Nebraska program or the

contributions made by Boyd Epley. Nebraska's marketing of its

program to high school athletes, coaches and programs has been done

very effectively. Good for them! Does that make it the " best " ? It

can be easily argued that the most important part of Nebraska's

success is recruiting superior athletes.

How does the perception of whats best by mostly amateur and

unknowledgable highs school coaches have to do with proper tecnique

and instruction?

As someone earlier pointed out, many of these " technique points "

(i.e. vertical shins) may come more from corrective coaching cues

than proper biomechanical analysis.

Ken Vick

Director of Sports Performance

HEALTHSOUTH

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Guest guest]

> In the coaching world Nebraska is regarded as having

> the best strength and conditioning program in the

> nation. Ask your coaches if you don't believe me.

> Everybody tries to mimmick them to some degree. I

> understand that great lifters are not necessarily

> great football players, but it damn sure can't hurt.

>

> Mims

> Dothan, AL

### I am well aware that the Nebraska strength program is highly

regarded in collegiate strength and conditioning circles. But there

football coaching staff is probably even more highly regarded in

football coaching circles, ask your coaches if you don't believe me!

ly however, with the poor quality of strength and

conditioning that goes on around the nations university's, the

best doesn't necessarily have to be great to be the best. That's

no to take anything away from Nebraska or other schools who do

have good programs, but the vast majority of schools I've been

around have million dollar facilities, million dollar athletes,

and a strength coach who gets his information out of Muscle and

Fitness. Take a pretty good strength program and combine it with

pretty good on field instruction and you will be pretty good

(especially if you can recruit the athletes they recruit, because

frankly with they're athletes and coaching staff they would be good on

virtually any strength program). However, take a good coaching staff

and combine it with a poor strength program or vice versa, and results

may not be as good.

As forbeing a great lifter " not hurting " one's chances of being a

great football player. Yes it can. If one spends too much time working

on lifts and not enough on on-field skill work, their play will

suffer. Likewise, if they develop strength deficits too great in a

certain area of strength (i.e., spped strength, absolute strength,

strength endurance, etc.) as a result of overemphasis of a specific

lift, or " weightroom " goal, then that again can hamper on field play.

And this is one of the areas that the poor strength coaches I

mentioned earlier have no clue about.

Todd

Hattiesburg, MS