Re: Tsatsouline Hypertrophy Theory

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff:

>What on earth is a " virtual " muscle? The above also implies that

>typical powerlifting regimes do not enhance hypertrophy - if that is

>the case, how do all those hugely muscled powerlifters ever manage to develop

>such hypertrophy? Let's not be misled by some lack of definition in many

>cases, because this has more to do with adipose fat than lack of muscle.

A " virtual " muscle is one that looks impressive but is weak,

nevertheless. This applies to a lot of bodybuilders; Louie

himself has commented that bodybuilders generally are much weaker than

their appearance would otherwise indicate. Some powerlifters are heavily

muscled, but many are not, and Olympic lifters rarely have huge muscles.

Pavel's point is that there is not much relationship between the

appearance of a muscle and its strength; strength has more to do with

neurological factors than with sheer size.

[There appears to be an optimal and very individual balance between neurological

and tissue (muscle and connective) hypertrophic contributions to strength, as I

discuss in " Supertraining " . One cannot have the physique of a small marathoner

and hope to lift the loads of Mutlu and Suleymanoglu (of about the same

bodymass),

no matter how neurologically efficient one may be. Mel Siff

The workout he recommends for hypertrophy was one used in the Soviet

military (which he trained) to put on mass quickly, without regard for

strength. Remember, this interview was given to a publication aimed at

bodybuilders. For most people, the typical powerlifting workout does not

result in nearly as much hypertrophy as using some other protocols does -

which should hardly be a controversial assertion.

[As far as I know from speaking to others in the soviet military and the KGB,

the former soviet military, like all other major military organisations in the

world,

never placed any emphasis on hypertrophy development. If anything, there was

such a

strong feeling in many circles in the USSR against bodybuilding style,

ego-centred

(not State-centred), capitalistic hypertrophy that soviet bodybuilders

often had to sneak Western bodybuilding magazines into the country. Even if

some factions in the soviet military did some hypertrophy training, I doubt that

they ever were as successful as Western bodybuilders who, no matter what one

may say about drug abuse, money, politics... involved, undoubtedly have

dominated

the world of hypertrophy training. This all sounds more like marketing hype

than

factual information about what the soviet military really did. Mel Siff]

Steve Justus

Westminster, CO

[Guest guest]

I'd like to make two points on this one.

1. Empirically at least Pavel Tsatsouline is correct. One needs to

train in the " Zone " to increase strength. Which is at an intensity

level of 75-90% of one's 1RM. Of course, every now and then

powerlifters and weightlifters go above and below this figure when

they want to break PR's or back of the intensity a bit in the

beginning of a new phase or while analysing technique.

I personally have worked out in 2 gyms. One thats airconditioned and caters to

the " smart-set " who incidentally are too lazy to squat and think

biceps curls and bench presses along with the latest EAS MRP is the

way to Muscle Nirvana. These people are always stuck at the bottom of

the intensity ladder doing mindless sets and reps to get a pump and

invariably some of these guys develop big muscles. But they are not

strong.

On the other hand in the gym I currently workout is a

powerlifting and weightlifting gym along with a

regular " bodybuilding " type gym. There are no prizes for guessing

which section of this gym is more crowded and consists mainly of the

weaker crowd. But I dont totally agree that high volume low

intensity is all that one needs to build showy muscles. Maximal

weights every now and then are needed.

Otherwise as one can see across many gyms people stagnate in their

bodybuilding goals.

2.[Dr. Siff said: What on earth is a " virtual " muscle? The above

also implies that typical powerlifting regimes do not enhance

hypertrophy - if that is the case, how do all those hugely muscled

powerlifters ever manage to develop such hypertrophy? Let's not be

misled by some lack of definition in many cases, because this has

more to do with adipose fat than lack of muscle.]

Nowhere in the article does Tsatsouline say that powerlifters are

less muscular. What he says that they don't exhibit as much muscle as

one would assume they would possess considering their strength. (i.e.

they are relative to their bodyweight very strong individuals)

[i did not say anything about being " less muscular " - I said that what Pavel

wrote IMPLIES that " typical powerlifting regimes do not enhance hypertrophy. "

You omitted what I said about their apparent lack of obvious muscle, so that

your

extracts misrepresent what I actually wrote - I stated very clearly that any

apparent lack of large muscles may be due to often higher levels of bodyfat,

which is of no concern to the competitive lifter, as opposed to the competitive

bodybuilder. Mel Siff]

Regards,

Arjun Kalbag

Mumbai, India

[Guest guest]

Steve Justus wrote: The workout he recommends for hypertrophy was one used

in the Soviet military (which he trained) to put on mass quickly, without

regard for strength. Remember, this interview was given to a publication

aimed at

bodybuilders.

**** Let me guess, this was an article from Muscle Media, right? The above

statement is contrary to everything I've ever read in Pavel's writings or

heard him state. The Special Forces training (in both Russia and the U.S.)

is geared toward strength without a lot of bulk to have to drag around. A

soldier of this ilk requires tremendous strength and endurance as well as

having his wits about him.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Pavel never wrote the above statement at

all but that the editors took liberties with his column to suit their

particular audience. The reason I say this is because the person behind the

scenes is the same. I was told personally by Dan Duchaine that when Muscle

Media began to lose its hard core thrust his articles were watered down or

changed without his consent or awareness. He only found out when someone

wrote him and asked, " Did you *really* say that?! "

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Marina del Rey, CA

IronRoses@...

[Guest guest]

Pavel Tsatsouline helping Russian Special Forces guys (Spetsnaz)

to " put on mass quickly, without regard for strength " ???!!!!! Think

about how dumb that statement is. Is a big massive soldier without

any functional strength going to threaten opposing forces just

because he is BIG??? Im laughing here!!

All I can say is that I heard about Pavel and his books (Power to the

People, Bullet Proof Abs etc) and training methodologies (kettlebell

training, explosive athletic-type training and the Paveliser) from

the Clarence Bass' excellent website, www.cbass.com.

In an article introducing the Pavel " The Evil Russian " Tsatsouline

Clarence says about him that he is a proponent of Russian training

systems where the stress is on functional strength. In fact his brief

while working with the Spetsnaz was increasing strength without

significant hypertrophy. For a soldier being massive is often a

liability.

He also says warm-ups are useless since a soldier has no

time to warm up. He has to act instantly. In another interview to

www.testosterone.net he even critisizes the American obsession with

big muscles. What he says he has to offer the drug-bloated pro-

bodybuilder is some serious strength training advice where they can

increase their strength which will cause a cascading effect resulting

in bigger muscles.

In fact the average Russian is more interested in

strength and that's obvious with the amount of weightlifters that have

come out of the former Soviet Union. Also I read somewhere that

Russia has the highest percentage of competitive weightlifters in its

population. He currently trains the SWAT teams and he I'm sure he

isnt paid to make them get big without any consideration to their

performance.

Its obvious that the article was ghost written or was transmuted to

sell to the American wannabe bodybuilder.

Regards,

Arjun Kalbag

Mumbai India

[Guest guest]

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon writes:

>Steve Justus wrote: The workout he recommends for hypertrophy was one used

>in the Soviet military (which he trained) to put on mass quickly, without

>regard for strength. Remember, this interview was given to a publication

>aimed at

>bodybuilders.

>

>**** Let me guess, this was an article from Muscle Media, right? The above

>statement is contrary to everything I've ever read in Pavel's writings or

>heard him state. The Special Forces training (in both Russia and the U.S.)

>is geared toward strength without a lot of bulk to have to drag around. A

>soldier of this ilk requires tremendous strength and endurance as well as

>having his wits about him.

It was an interview in Testosterone magazine online, but it's the same

difference - a publication aimed at bodybuilders. The routine is from his

" Power to the People " book, and he specifically says it was for a show

unit that was made to look impressive - not fight well. As a former

Spetsnaz (Soviet Special Forces) trainer, Pavel most certainly does not

believe in adding unnecessary bulk, but he gave the bodybuilding audience

what it was looking for in this case.

I think his real attitude towards bulking up is shown in his first

article in the now-defunct " Mind and Muscle Power " magazine, simply

entitled " Bodybuilding Sucks " . In that article, he points out that any

extra weight was a hindrance to Spetsnaz personnel, who are usually

between 160 and 180 pounds - large enough to carry their gear, but no

larger than is necessary. The routine he gave in T-mag (at least 10 sets

of 5 reps) is not too different from Poliquin's " German Volume Training "

(10 sets of 10 reps), which is also aimed at bodybuilders.

Steve Justus

Westminster, CO

[Guest guest]

Yes, Pavel does talk about bodybuilding in his books, but as others have

stated, he points out that the methods to achieve a bodybuilding look is not

the same as what he advises for achieving strength. As far as where these

statements came from, I do recall him making some very cursory remarks in

Power To The People.

As far as the Testosterone interview, I read it long ago and don't emember

exactly what was said in it. However, as time has gone by, I don't trust

the writers on that site any more than I do the editor of Muscle Media not

to skew someone's remarks or simply make something up. Both zines started

out with excellent trustworthy information, but slid into an advertisity

hype mentality. I don't understand why the two can't co-exist unless they

think that if there is truth in their articles no one will believe what they

have to say about their supplements. At this point in time, I no longer

purchase either Biotest or EAS products although I realize that some are

good. I just don't feel like rewarding their lies with my hard earned

money.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Marina del Rey, CA

IronRoses@...

[Guest guest]

The workout he recommends for hypertrophy was

one used

> >in the Soviet military (which he trained) to put on mass quickly,

without

> >regard for strength. Remember, this interview was given to a

publication

> >aimed at

> >bodybuilders.

> >

> >**** Let me guess, this was an article from Muscle Media, right?

The above

> >statement is contrary to everything I've ever read in Pavel's

writings or

> >heard him state. The Special Forces training (in both Russia and

the U.S.)

> >is geared toward strength without a lot of bulk to have to drag

around. A

> >soldier of this ilk requires tremendous strength and endurance as

well as

> >having his wits about him.

>

> It was an interview in Testosterone magazine online, but it's the

same

> difference - a publication aimed at bodybuilders. The routine is

from his

> " Power to the People " book, and he specifically says it was for a

show

> unit that was made to look impressive - not fight well. As a former

> Spetsnaz (Soviet Special Forces) trainer, Pavel most certainly does

not

> believe in adding unnecessary bulk, but he gave the bodybuilding

audience

> what it was looking for in this case.

>

> I think his real attitude towards bulking up is shown in his first

> article in the now-defunct " Mind and Muscle Power " magazine, simply

> entitled " Bodybuilding Sucks " . In that article, he points out that

any

> extra weight was a hindrance to Spetsnaz personnel, who are usually

> between 160 and 180 pounds - large enough to carry their gear, but

no

> larger than is necessary. The routine he gave in T-mag (at least 10

sets

> of 5 reps) is not too different from Poliquin's " German Volume

Training "

> (10 sets of 10 reps), which is also aimed at bodybuilders.

>

>

> Steve Justus

> Westminster, CO

Once again.The same old question: " What is better oranges or apples?

Why so big noise about Spetsnaz?If your goal is hypertrophy you have

to train for hypertrophy.If your goal the strength endurance -have to

train for that.Everything is relative.No comparison at all.If you

training for triatlon or marathon that means that you are training

exactly for that,not for Olympic weightlifting.And also watch your

potential.If you was born to fly you will fly.And no one is growing

like a mushrooms after the rain.Thats why if anyone think that if just

to start lifting weights evolves him in Incredible Hulk ,very

mistaken.Let's for example say Pavel(Spetcnaz trainer)have a very

strong willing to increase his lean bodymass dramatically, this is

will never happen to him,because of genetic limitations.But he can be

very good in strength endurance or speed endurance.I don't know how

good he is as a trainer ,but he is very good on what he selling.

Khasin.

New York

[Guest guest]

You have made certain errors in your theorising. Ill put everything

that I have to say in distinct points

1. You made the following comments:

" What is becoming increasingly annoying is the fact that

several " authorities/experts " are constantly speaking negatively of

bodybuilders " .

" If bodybuilders are interested in goals other than relative strength

why not let them be and not say derogatory comments about them? "

" Ronnie habitually performs repetitions of 12 and above,

sometimes up to 20. On videotape, I have watched him deadlift over

800 pounds and front squat 585 for multiple repetitions. "

****These experts and authorities are not so much bothered about

bodybuilding as a pastime but are bothered about the fact

bodybuilding has indeed been the worst thing to happen to strength

sports. Among all sports which rely on weight training

(weightlifting, powerlifting and bodybuilding among others like

throwing etc) bodybuilders are the weakest of the lot by a long way.

Now, as you put it rightly, bodybuilders are looking for SIZE and not

STRENGTH so why the blazes do we have videos of Ronnie showing

him perform incredible feats of strength. These training videos are

coming out with monotonous regularity and each featured bodybuilder

never uses anything less than 700lbs on the deadlift and 500 on the

squat. I no sooner believe in these videos than I would believe in

the supplements ads both of which are intended to fool the average

person. Do you really believe in everything that you read or see?

<Another thing which I simply can't understand is the fact that Pavel

uses quotes and insights in his book from certain people who actually

practice what Pavel has a disliking towards. For example, he makes

references to Ken Leistner. >

Now the comments he quoted from Dr Ken is

1 Bodybuilding is the worst thing to happen to strength sports

2 Bodybuilders are a bunch of bodyparts.

Both these statements are true. Pavel dislikes bodybuilding and so

does Dr Ken and both are averse to isolation exercises . Yes, on the

issue of training methods - both are polar opposites of each other.

<As for the issue of machines being for " wusses " do you realise that

Westside fellows are using machines for side exercises ? The main

lifts are all using free weights. They get " p.....d " vested interested

are trying to make a quick buck and sell machines which don't equal

the qualities of free weights >

Another piece of skewed logic you have used is showing an article

where Pavel recommends high rep routines (12 or more) while he

clearly is against it. Now do you realise he has written that for a mag

(Muscular Development) and its just about putting on without any

thought to strength. Please see everything that you read or hear in the

whole context. Missing out the larger picture is a mistake which is

costly.

Till then happy lifting ,

Regards,

Arjun Kalbag

[Guest guest]

Wouldn't genetics play a part in how people react to different types

(high/low reps) of training? Perhaps you can't generalise and say that

what works for , Schwarzenegger and Yates is good for mere

mortals.

Ulf Karlsson

Halmstad

Sweden

> Brad Someone anonymously sent us this letter:

>

> I would just like to say that it appears that people on this board

have not

> been following all of Pavel's writings. Contrary to what some may

think,

> Pavel has indeed used the term of " virtual muscle " and similar terms

as well.

> If you read his book, Power to the People, in its entirety you can

see his

> disdain for bodybuilders and bodybuilding methods.

>

> I would like to add that I am a recreational bodybuilder as of now

and plan on competing about four

> years from now. What is becoming increasingly annoying is the fact that

> several " authorities/experts " are constantly speaking negatively of

> bodybuilders. My first gripe about Pavel's book is the fact that he

refers to

> the hypertrophy resulting from bodybuilding training as useless

tissure. He

> then goes on to say that any set consisting of more than 5 reps is

an injury

> prone set. In addition he says they build soft useless tissue.

>

> Now I would like to give an example of something that would puzzle

me according to his

> opinion. It may sound somewhat juvenile. I have watched several pro and

> natural bodybuilders train, some of whom are incredibly strong. None

of them

> ever does repetitions of less than six. Could it be that they are

lifting those

> monstrous weights with " useless " tissue? Ronnie habitually

performs

> repetitions of 12 and above, sometimes up to 20. On videotape, I

have watched

> him deadlift over 800 pounds and front squat 585 for multiple

repetitions.

> Could it be that all his " virtual " muscle is doing him no good and

that his

> high rep practice is no good?

>

> Another thing which I simply can't understand is the fact that

Pavel uses quotes and insights in his book from certain

> people who actually practice what Pavel has a disliking towards. For

example,

> he makes references to Ken Leistner pertaining to things that he is

fond of.

>

> On the other hand, this same person is fond of using ultra high reps

(up to

> 30 or more) and training until complete failure, two practices that

Pavel

> expresses his disdain for. He then goes on to say further in his

book that

> machines are " for wusses " and make people injury prone. Now how many

> successful athletes use machines? Many. Dorian Yates and just about

every top

> bodybuilder, both chemical and natural, uses machines. Some

powerlifters do

> as well. Westside Barbell comes to mind. In Dorian's training video,

he has

> an entire quadriceps training routine which consists of three

machines. He

> uses a leg press, a leg extension, and a hack squat machine. Could

it be that

> those machines are doing him no good and he is a " wuss? " The man

dominated

> bodybuilding for years and had thighs bigger than some females' waists.

> Machines helped him.

>

> Take a look at the Westside lifters, all of whom use machines such

as reverse hyperextension, lat pulldown, and tricep pressdown.

> Are these men taking the wuss's way out? However, Pavel uses quotes

from

> Louie in two of his books about things that he is fond of.

In his

> book, he also states that bodybuilding is the worst thing to happen to

> strength training. How can this be? If bodybuilders are interested

in goals

> other than relative strength why not let them be and not say durogatory

> comments about them? Many powerlifters use high reps as well in their

> training. High rep dumbell bench presses at Westside come to mind.

>

> Months later, Pavel wrote a bodybuilding training program for the

EAS supplement

> review book (a book which was ripped to shreds in Muscular

Development by top

> researcher Dr. Kreider) which contains 20 rep squats and

reps above

> 8. What happened to his belief that high reps are useless. In this

program he

> also states that one can do very well in terms of fat loss with just

brisk

> walking. He states " if it works for Dorian Yates, then it will work

for you. "

> There we go again using an example of a concept which he is fond of

from a

> person who at the same time actually practices what Pavel has a

disdain for.

> Dorian trained beyond failure.

>

> So what I am concluding is that Pavel uses examples from a wide

variety of sources to convince uneducated ( about

> bodybuilding and strength training practices of athletes and

coaches) readers

> while leaving out many things. If one were to look at the big

picture, he is

> contradicing himself many times. In his video he also stated that if

one were

> to take a look at the top bodybuilders such as Ronnie ,

Dorian Yates,

> and Arnold Schwarzenneger. When did Ronnie or Dorian complete reps

of below

> six reps? Rarely, if ever. Aside from this, other top natural

bodybuilders

> rarely train below six reps.

>

> I apologize if this comes across juvenile or as just a rant but I

wanted to bring this to some people's attention and see

> what they have to say on the subject.