Modern Education and Intellect

[Guest guest]

[Amazing then that corporations and firms do their very best to separate

employees

according to ability and promote those who perform especially well! Then

American

society adulates the wealthy and powerful who stand out in this adult

separation game!

What is un-American at school level academically is very American at

university, corporate and

governmental level. Interestingly, kids are separated very ruthlessly in

school sports -

why is it so different academically? So many contradictions! Mel Siff]

It is just recently that state universities have become so crowded that

e.g., University of Florida now has entrance levels and students who don't

meet them, though they have high school diplomas, are denied entrance. In

the past, most state universities, not UCLA and Rutgers, of course, but most

state universities accepted any student with a high school diploma. That

system just became too unwieldy.

The states have made up for this " injustice " with the junior college system

which is purportedly to bring colleges closer to where students live but is,

in reality, to teach the student what he failed to learn in 12 years of

public school. If a student successfully finishes two years of junior

college, depending on the state requirements, he can begin university on the

junior level.

Most professors that I know (and this is truly personal) say that the

students who begin university on the freshman level (first year) are far

more advanced as juniors (third year) than the ones who have matriculated

through the junior college system.

What I neglected to mention when I spoke of the lost generation is that the

social system that is not governmental is provided by the underground

numbers and drug dealers. Every child who does not fit into the

government's school structure can earn a living by running numbers and

dealing small amounts of drugs. The existence of these " services " is so

totally open that the police know about them and minority politicians fight

the mayors and governors when they try to stop them because they provide the

only sanctuary for the lost members of the population. (Another answer: most

of the lost children are perpetually stoned on inexpensive drugs).

Some of these underground organizations even provide dormitory living space

and actually take care of the children on some level. They provide enough

money that the children don't have to steal and what they provide to the

community is in such demand they are actually distributors rather than

salesmen. These children rarely enter the mainstream social system,

however.

When the government has a crackdown on drugs and arrests hundreds of drug

dealers and puts them in prison for ten years, it is these children (the

ones over 16) that are put away; the government rarely goes after higher

level of drug dealers because that involves extensive lawsuits with high

priced lawyers and cases that go on for years.

The problem of drugs in this society is so complex and the use so large and

the amount of money so huge that when the government says they are going

after drugs, it is merely hypocrisy. There are two states where the major

industry is marijuana farming and the IRS collects taxes from them, they

donate money to political campaigns, send senators and representatives to

Congress; occasionally the feds arrest a farmer in this area and it is shown

on television news as a triumph. (We are busily trying to stop this in the

Middle East because we cannot begin to stop it in the U.S.)

Why don't the schools work in America? Because we are a middle class

country where a mayor just spent $67 million dollars of his own personal

money to become a mayor; we are a middle class country who are represented

by the very rich; an aristocracy which is so separated from their

constituents that they do not have any idea of how the society functions.

They attempt to use fancy prep school techniques to solve the problems of

the lower class. They do not have and choose not to have any concept of the

needs of the plebeians.

Every year the financial disparity between the aristocrats (those with

money) and the plebeians (those below subsistence) becomes larger. The

plebeians are rarely in a position to provide a homelife for children and

help them with their homework since they can't read either.

And what I am saying is not radical. It is simply that the country

functions rather well without dealing with the underclass. Yes, these

children are bringing down test scores but they don't go to Harvard or

Exeter anyway. So American education is quite good on the upper upper

middle class to aristocrat level.

Ron Dobrin

www.dolfzine.com

Fax: (212) 644-5690

Re: Re: Modern Education and Intellect

> :

>

> There is no way you can compare the social problems in Belgium with those

in

> the United States where we don't have a national language and it is

> considered un-American to force a child to learn English unless his

parents

> consent. Our schools represent the tower of Babel.

>

> [i have also heard that it is quite rare for a child to be failed by the

teachers

> in most American schools, unless he/she consistently does not attend

> classes or hand in most assignments. Is this correct? Mel Siff]

>

> Mel, this is called social promotion and, though it is publicly frowned

upon,

> if more than a small percent of students fail, it is called the teacher's

> failure and generally a teacher who does not pass at least 55% of students

> will be dismissed or put under such pressure that he/she will resign. The

> largest group of highly qualified teachers in New York City work in

> secretarial positions where their language skills are appreciated and they

> are paid much more than teachers. (Law firms welcome teachers.)

>

> Testing on the state level. When I taught in New York City, teachers

graded

> the statewide tests and we were not allowed to leave for Christmas

Holidays

> until 60% of our students passed. Every few hours the administration

would

> come in and announce, these tests need to be re-graded: only 35% passed.

>

> When students are faced with standardized national college tests (graded

by

> machines) (after 12 years of social promotion) although they have passed

the

> yearly tests, many of them rate as if they were in the first year of

> elementary school. Hence the national average falls.

>

> It is un-American to separate students according to ability and place them

> into vocational schools. Every student has a right to a college education

in

> America.

>

> [Amazing then that corporations and firms do their very best to separate

employees

> according to ability and promote those who perform especially well! Then

American

> society adulates the wealthy and powerful who stand out in this adult

separation game!

> What is un-American at school level academically is very American at

university, corporate and

> governmental level. Interestingly, kids are separated very ruthlessly in

school sports -

> why is it so different academically? So many contradictions! Mel Siff]

>

> There are some truant schools in New York City. The effective ones are

> called prisons. The ones that pretend to be schools teach little. The

> effective teachers are more police officers than teachers.

>

> We have a certain ungovernable class of student that has been brought up

in

> poverty, with no parental supervision, who speak very little of any

> language, who are tossed into the huge bureaucracy called public

education.

> Many of the girls are already pregnant by age 12; almost all of these

> students are in such emotional pain that they are drugged all the time.

> Many are homeless and live in the streets. Many attend school because they

> get a free meal that they don't have to steal.

>

> We have an underclass that is so low in this wealthy society and these

> children after 12 years of surviving the streets are given college bound

> testing.

>

> What is different is that America has now included " homeless " on its

census

> and government forms. People live in box cities. When Giuliani was hailed

> for improving the quality of living in the city, he rounded up the people

in

> box cities and moved them out of town.

>

> There is no way to educate this class until they are housed, fed and

brought

> up with supervision, something that is so difficult that the Congress does

> not deal with this...and this is both Republican and Democrat. They

pretend

> that these children do not exist.

>

> America is so confused with the concept of rights that a person has right

> to live in the streets; has a right to not be inoculated for disease, has

a

> right not to learn English; has a right to bathe in the sink at the public

> library and sleep in the streets. Most small towns just ignore the laws

and

> deal with the problems on a one-to-one basis but the big cities cannot do

> that. There are civil liberties groups that will fight for the right of

> these lost children not to be coerced into a life that they think they

don't

> want.

>

> This is part of a national shame that shows in testing and is revealed on

> television for comic reasons on programs like The Jerry Springer Show.

>

> [Maybe some more Americans who still enjoy reading should read some of

that

> lengthy collection of volumes by Gibbon, " The Decline and Fall of

> the Roman Empire " to remind themselves how even the most long-lived

> kingdoms can fall from glory. Mel Siff]

>

> Ron Dobrin

> www.dolfzine.com

> New York City

>

> --------------------

> '

> From: " Big Cat " <raven1008@...>

>

> > > Up until the Great Society, only middle class and upper class students

were

> > > tested; hence the scores were higher. In the 60's when welfare checks

were

> > > tied to schools attendance and testing, the scores dropped

significantly.

> > > The students who were always truant were suddenly in the schools or

their

> > > parents lost their checks.

> >

> > > : I know this is not the scientific answer you requested but this

comes

> > > from someone who spent five years in the New York Public Schools and

seven

> > > years teaching at Rome's International School where we used similar

> > > curricula and we both sought accreditation from the same American

source..

> >

> > I would have to disagree. While that would account for a decline, it

> > doesn't account for the abysmal state. In Belgium everyone is forced to

> > go to school until they are 18; we have no choice. If you are truant

> > for more than a number of days without the proper legitimation the cops

> > will come to your house to get you. Yet our school system seems to be

> > thriving. Things that were taught in first year college 30 years ago

> > are not being taught in 8th or 9th grade.

> >

> > I think the mistake here was to throw all these children in the same

> > classroom and have them do their own thing. Here we have three separate

> > school systems, depended on whether you are headed into a manual,

> > technical or a more scientific profession. Which allows each to

> > progress at its own tempo.

> >

> > Van Mol

> > Belgium

>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

If I may inject my $.02 worth. I live in Oklahoma where we have a governor

who believes along the lines you have just mentioned. He says he is for

public education but then calls the teachers " slugs " and sends his own

children to private schools. He is currently trying to dismantle what

could easily be the best Vocational/Technical training programs in America.

[Just make sure that this is his last term as governor, then. His behaviour in

some respects

may be regarded as treasonable because it is acting against the broad interests

of the

nation. Some people think that treason consists merely of warlike actions and

espionage against the government. While this may be the " de jure " (by law)

definition

of treason, a " de facto " (by deed or action) definition would include any act

which

lowers the ability of the country to function effectively against its foes. He,

like all politicians,

should fully appreciate that " the pen is mightier than the sword " , and that

education,

knowledge and training are greater than all the technology and weaponry in

existence. Patriotism may then be defined as the opposite of de facto treason.

According to this broader definition of patriotism and treason, we can dispense

with

all the political and administrative words and manifestos, and readily identify

the true patriots and true traitors in our society - and note how rife the world

of politics is with representatives of the latter! Mel Siff]

The programs taught at these schools are worth anywhere from 3 to 30

colleges credit hours at the local colleges because of the high level at

which they are taught. This is also in a state that has trouble keeping

its best and brightest teachers coming out of college because the starting

pay for teachers here is so low. (typical starting pay for a bachelor's

degree and zero years experience is about $24K) We have students coming out

of our tech schools starting from $30K to $45K. And this is at 18 years old.

One of the bright spots of this educational system is the athletics. This

is where you can still discipline and correct problems before they cause you

problems on the field (or court as the case may be). Let the teachers and

the administration discipline as they see fit. They are the professionals

(and pay them accordingly).

Steve Lofton

Skiatook, OK

--------------------

>Why don't the schools work in America? Because we are a middle class

>country where a mayor just spent $67 million dollars of his own personal

>money to become a mayor; we are a middle class country who are represented

>by the very rich; an aristocracy which is so separated from their

>constituents that they do not have any idea of how the society functions.

>They attempt to use fancy prep school techniques to solve the problems of

>the lower class. They do not have and choose not to have any concept of

the

>needs of the plebeians.

>

>Every year the financial disparity between the aristocrats (those with

>money) and the plebeians (those below subsistence) becomes larger. The

>plebeians are rarely in a position to provide a homelife for children and

>help them with their homework since they can't read either.

>

>And what I am saying is not radical. It is simply that the country

>functions rather well without dealing with the underclass. Yes, these

>children are bringing down test scores but they don't go to Harvard or

>Exeter anyway. So American education is quite good on the upper upper

>middle class to aristocrat level.

>

>Ron Dobrin

>www.dolfzine.com

>Fax: (212) 644-5690

>

> Re: Re: Modern Education and Intellect

>

>

>> :

>>

>> There is no way you can compare the social problems in Belgium with those

>in

>> the United States where we don't have a national language and it is

>> considered un-American to force a child to learn English unless his

>parents

>> consent. Our schools represent the tower of Babel.

>>

>> [i have also heard that it is quite rare for a child to be failed by the

>teachers

>> in most American schools, unless he/she consistently does not attend

>> classes or hand in most assignments. Is this correct? Mel Siff]

>>

>> Mel, this is called social promotion and, though it is publicly frowned

>upon,

>> if more than a small percent of students fail, it is called the teacher's

>> failure and generally a teacher who does not pass at least 55% of

students

>> will be dismissed or put under such pressure that he/she will resign.

The

>> largest group of highly qualified teachers in New York City work in

>> secretarial positions where their language skills are appreciated and

they

>> are paid much more than teachers. (Law firms welcome teachers.)

>>

>> Testing on the state level. When I taught in New York City, teachers

>graded

>> the statewide tests and we were not allowed to leave for Christmas

>Holidays

>> until 60% of our students passed. Every few hours the administration

>would

>> come in and announce, these tests need to be re-graded: only 35% passed.

>>

>> When students are faced with standardized national college tests (graded

>by

>> machines) (after 12 years of social promotion) although they have passed

>the

>> yearly tests, many of them rate as if they were in the first year of

>> elementary school. Hence the national average falls.

>>

>> It is un-American to separate students according to ability and place

them

>> into vocational schools. Every student has a right to a college education

>in

>> America.

>>

>> [Amazing then that corporations and firms do their very best to separate

>employees

>> according to ability and promote those who perform especially well! Then

>American

>> society adulates the wealthy and powerful who stand out in this adult

>separation game!

>> What is un-American at school level academically is very American at

>university, corporate and

>> governmental level. Interestingly, kids are separated very ruthlessly in

>school sports -

>> why is it so different academically? So many contradictions! Mel Siff]

>>

>> There are some truant schools in New York City. The effective ones are

>> called prisons. The ones that pretend to be schools teach little. The

>> effective teachers are more police officers than teachers.

>>

>> We have a certain ungovernable class of student that has been brought up

>in

>> poverty, with no parental supervision, who speak very little of any

>> language, who are tossed into the huge bureaucracy called public

>education.

>> Many of the girls are already pregnant by age 12; almost all of these

>> students are in such emotional pain that they are drugged all the time.

>> Many are homeless and live in the streets. Many attend school because

they

>> get a free meal that they don't have to steal.

>>

>> We have an underclass that is so low in this wealthy society and these

>> children after 12 years of surviving the streets are given college bound

>> testing.

>>

>> What is different is that America has now included " homeless " on its

>census

>> and government forms. People live in box cities. When Giuliani was

hailed

>> for improving the quality of living in the city, he rounded up the people

>in

>> box cities and moved them out of town.

>>

>> There is no way to educate this class until they are housed, fed and

>brought

>> up with supervision, something that is so difficult that the Congress

does

>> not deal with this...and this is both Republican and Democrat. They

>pretend

>> that these children do not exist.

>>

>> America is so confused with the concept of rights that a person has

right

>> to live in the streets; has a right to not be inoculated for disease, has

>a

>> right not to learn English; has a right to bathe in the sink at the

public

>> library and sleep in the streets. Most small towns just ignore the laws

>and

>> deal with the problems on a one-to-one basis but the big cities cannot do

>> that. There are civil liberties groups that will fight for the right of

>> these lost children not to be coerced into a life that they think they

>don't

>> want.

>>

>> This is part of a national shame that shows in testing and is revealed on

>> television for comic reasons on programs like The Jerry Springer Show.

>>

>> [Maybe some more Americans who still enjoy reading should read some of

>that

>> lengthy collection of volumes by Gibbon, " The Decline and Fall of

>> the Roman Empire " to remind themselves how even the most long-lived

>> kingdoms can fall from glory. Mel Siff]

>>

>> Ron Dobrin

>> www.dolfzine.com

>> New York City

>>

>> --------------------

>> '

>> From: " Big Cat " <raven1008@...>

>>

>> > > Up until the Great Society, only middle class and upper class

students

>were

>> > > tested; hence the scores were higher. In the 60's when welfare

checks

>were

>> > > tied to schools attendance and testing, the scores dropped

>significantly.

>> > > The students who were always truant were suddenly in the schools or

>their

>> > > parents lost their checks.

>> >

>> > > : I know this is not the scientific answer you requested but

this

>comes

>> > > from someone who spent five years in the New York Public Schools and

>seven

>> > > years teaching at Rome's International School where we used similar

>> > > curricula and we both sought accreditation from the same American

>source..

>> >

>> > I would have to disagree. While that would account for a decline, it

>> > doesn't account for the abysmal state. In Belgium everyone is forced to

>> > go to school until they are 18; we have no choice. If you are truant

>> > for more than a number of days without the proper legitimation the cops

>> > will come to your house to get you. Yet our school system seems to be

>> > thriving. Things that were taught in first year college 30 years ago

>> > are not being taught in 8th or 9th grade.

>> >

>> > I think the mistake here was to throw all these children in the same

>> > classroom and have them do their own thing. Here we have three separate

>> > school systems, depended on whether you are headed into a manual,

>> > technical or a more scientific profession. Which allows each to

>> > progress at its own tempo.

>> >

>> > Van Mol