Modern Education and Intellect

[Guest guest]

I'm surprised a college professor would publish this type of material.

Tests and papers are assigned to assess student knowledge. How well the

students perform

on the tests and papers is a measure of teaching effectiveness.

Remember the teacher who told the class, " I don't give A's. " ?

The appropriate response is, " You must not be a very good teacher. "

It's sad when the teacher ridicules the student.

Skip Dallen

Covina, CA

-------------------

From: charlie newkerk

Dr. Siff, on a lighter note in our pursuit of the truth, I found an

interesting article in today's

(12/29/01) Orlando Sentinel.

' " Blintz Krieg " of Bloopers is nothing new for students.'

A college professor gathers three decades of silliness from test and papers.

" Professor Anders Henriksson wants you to know that college kids today aren't

necessarily more stupid or

less informed than they were 30 years ago, and he offers an improbable book

full of proof.

The volume is NON CAMPUS MENTIS: non sequiturs, faux facts aned boneheaded

statements gleaned from

three decades of student tests and papers at universities and colleges across

North America. It has inched

onto the New York Times miscellaneous best seller list. And it certainly is

miscellaneous. "

The article goes on to state that he didn't make up the statements but has

received them from professors

at other universities and colleges after he published two compliations in

Quarterly. Some date back

to the 1930s, including Oxford, City College Of New York, and the US Military

Academy.

A sample---the airplane was invented and first flown by the Marx brothers;

Hitler's instrumentality of

terror was the Gespacho; Noah's wife was Joan Of Ark; Middle Eastern history

was written by Florence of

Arabia; the Soviets erected the Berlin Mall; Plato invented reality. He was

the teacher to Tottle,

author of The Republicans; Germany's II had a chimp on his shoulder

and therefore has to ride

his horse into battle with only one hand; The Germans took the bypass around

France's Marginal Line.

This was know as the 'Blintz Krieg " ; Corruptuion grew especially ripe in

Zaire, where Motutu was known

to indulge in more than an occasional[sic] little armadillo; The plurious of

wealth was therefore uneven.

The rural populous was reduced to tenement farming; The Boston Tea Party was

held at Pearl Harbor;

Americans...wanted no involvement in the French and Indian War because they

did not want to fight in

India; Moses was told by Jesus Christ to lead the people out of Egypt into the

Sahaira[sic] Desert. The book

of Exodus describes this trip...including the Ten Commandments, various

special effects, and the building

of the Suez Canal.

I am definitely going to get this book!!

Happy Holidays to all!!

Charlie Newkerk, C.S.C.S.

Rockledge, Fl

newkfit@...

[Guest guest]

> " Professor Anders Henriksson wants you to know that college kids

> today aren't necessarily more stupid or

> less informed than they were 30 years ago, and he offers an

> improbable book full of proof.

> The volume is NON CAMPUS MENTIS: non sequiturs, faux facts aned

> boneheaded statements gleaned from

> three decades of student tests and papers at universities and

> colleges across North America. It has inched

> onto the New York Times miscellaneous best seller list. And it

> certainly is miscellaneous. "

> The article goes on to state that he didn't make up the statements

> but has received them from professors

> at other universities and colleges after he published two

> compliations in Quarterly. Some date back

> to the 1930s, including Oxford, City College Of New York, and the

> US Military Academy.

That certainly was funny. Thank you for that intermezzo, but is it just

me or does that not strike you as college material ? Most of that stuff

is 9th or 10th grade high school at best. If even that.

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Big Cat, according to the article, this was college material, but the

level of education is apparently being dumbed down and many have to

take remedial courses in college to make up for the lack of training

in High School.

My son is in 9th grade here in Florida and for his first

9 week period he was assigned Life Skills, drafting, basketball and

Algebra for his four classes. I asked his counselor where the basic

three Rs were and received no intelligible reply. By the way, he is an honor

student, so imagine what the slower kids get to take. I didn't take an

elective in High School until I was a senior.

[Are you serious that playing a sport counts as an academic school subject in

the USA??

That is unheard of in most other countries, at least in other English-speaking

countries. All sports there are regarded as extramural, unless at colleges

where one has

to study sport in terms of exercise science, coaching methodology, sports

technique, kinesiology

and other academic topics. Playing of sport per se should never be regarded as

a legitimate

academic subject. Moreover, Life Skills, Hygiene, Self Management or whatever

these self

imporovement or self management skill classes may be called are sometimes

offered in other

countries as extras for sheer enrichment, but they are not examined subjects -

at least beyond

the lowest grades for kids. No wonder surveys and results show that USA school

children feature

close to the bottom internationally in mathematics, science and languages.

Something HAS to be

done about this disastrous situation. Mel Siff]

Charlie Newkerk, CSCS

Rockledge, Fl

------------------

Big Cat <raven1008@y...> wrote:

> > " Professor Anders Henriksson wants you to know that college kids

> > today aren't necessarily more stupid or

> > less informed than they were 30 years ago, and he offers an

> > improbable book full of proof.

> > The volume is NON CAMPUS MENTIS: non sequiturs, faux facts aned

> > boneheaded statements gleaned from

> > three decades of student tests and papers at universities and

> > colleges across North America. It has inched

> > onto the New York Times miscellaneous best seller list. And it

> > certainly is miscellaneous. "

> > The article goes on to state that he didn't make up the statements

> > but has received them from professors

> > at other universities and colleges after he published two

> > compliations in Quarterly. Some date back

> > to the 1930s, including Oxford, City College Of New York, and the

> > US Military Academy.

>

> That certainly was funny. Thank you for that intermezzo, but is it just

> me or does that not strike you as college material ? Most of that stuff

> is 9th or 10th grade high school at best. If even that.

>

> Van Mol

[Guest guest]

The misstatements and incorrect spellings attributed to college students

doesn't surprise me at all. As only the " silly little secretary, " I can

recall many college-educated individuals I worked with, or for, who didn't

know the difference between " there " and " their, " between " its " and " it's "

and who could hardly string a few sentences together to write a decent

report. I found it hard to imagine that these individuals received college

diplomas. These people were not foreign-born with English as a second

language but middle and upper middle class " natives. "

Of course, when one reads the list of high school subjects assigned to that

9th grader in Florida, it's not difficult to understand. From what I have

heard (but have no definite proof) about California, the educational system

improved somewhat because many parents became alarmed. When my eldest

stepson was a senior in high school in 1984, he was only required to take

two classes because he had enough credits to graduate. I was horrified

because he needed all the English classes he could get -- even if he spent

the entire day in a writing class! But that was the law and I couldn't

force it. Since he was immature and couldn't see the light, he took his two

classes and then went to a job in a restaurant. I will hand it to that

restaurant -- they taught him to be on time and do his job as he was

supposed to. It was either that or get fired and since he received no other

money, he learned how to perform. The Army took care of the rest of it and

after a struggle (due to the lack of a good basic education), he managed to

get through college. I used to tell him that by going along with only the

minimum of what was required, he was being cheated out of an education that,

as a citizen of the U.S., was his due.

As far as sports and personal hygiene classes being credit classes, yes they

are. They were when I went to school (I graduated in 1961). However, the

sports were called " P.E. " and it was a required class. We were also run

through one semester of " Personal Hygiene " . However, that was in addition

to English, History, Math and Science. In looking back on it, I received a

wonderful elementary education that prepared me well for the rest of my

life.

The difference (I was on a parent committee one time to investigate the

problem) seems to be that there are too many laws that allow a student too

much latitute with discipline rather than with whether or not they get an

education. When I was a kid, if you acted up in class, you might be told a

couple of times, then you were thrown out and you could explain it not only

to the principal, but to your parents. Rather than getting your ear

twisted, parents now very often try to place the blame on everyone but the

child. And kids, who have never been known to be angels, know the score.

It used to be that if you got in trouble in school, your peer group was very

unimpressed; now it seems to be the opposite. In addition, the teacher has

to fill out a big report and the kid has seven or eight chances to " reform. "

It has been my theory for quite some time that if the U.S. doesn't get it's

act together as far as providing a good education for everyone, eventually

that will be its downfall. This goes right along with not requiring

children be taught in English, the language of the country. There is no

harm in learning any other language, but if you're not proficient in

English, you are, and will remain a second class citizen.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Marina del Rey, CA

IronRoses@...

[Guest guest]

Tests and papers are assigned to assess student knowledge. How well the

students perform on the tests and papers is a measure of teaching

effectiveness.

*** for someone who is heading into teaching at the highschool level in a

year I believe this is true. As a student I always felt those teachers that

could hold the attention of a diverse group of individuals were the best

ones (who could argue with this). However these teachers were at times

classed as 'odd' or 'weird' because of some of their teaching 'methods',

which basically came down to enthusiasm for teaching the subject :-)

Remember the teacher who told the class, " I don't give A's. " ?

The appropriate response is, " You must not be a very good teacher. "

It's sad when the teacher ridicules the student.

*** this reminds me of the time during my final year of undergrad study

where we sat our exams and only need to pass the final exam in order to get

a final grade of high distinction. Unbelievably we only got credits for the

unit and upon quizzing the lecturer about it the response was something to

do with that stupid bloody 'bell curve' that some universities use whereby

only a certain number of high distinctions are awarded based on the overall

average of the class.

Surely your raw score for a particular subject should stand as is and not be

weighted against others in the class. I never understood this AAAGH !

Ben Freeman

Melbourne, Australia

[Guest guest]

Rosemary wrote:

<The difference (I was on a parent committee one time to investigate

the problem) seems to be that there are too many laws that allow a

student too much latitute with discipline rather than with whether or

not they get an education. When I was a kid, if you acted up in

class, you might be told a couple of times, then you were thrown out

and you could explain it not only to the principal, but to your

parents. Rather than getting your ear twisted, parents now very

often try to place the blame on everyone but the child. And kids,

who have never been known to be angels, know the score. It used to be

that if you got in trouble in school, your peer group was very

unimpressed; now it seems to be the opposite. In addition, the

teacher has to fill out a big report and the kid has seven or eight

chances to " reform. " >

writes:

I think you are right on the money with that comment Rosemary. I

experienced it first-hand while teaching high school and although I

still like teaching, it is one of the many reasons that got me to go

back to graduate studies in order to eventually teach at a higher

level (hopefully university... I like teaching, just can't stand the

never-ending disciplining). My girlfriend, who has also been a high

school teacher now for two years, has been experiencing the same

difficulties, although she is getting a break (kind of...) this year

as she took an opportunity to teach kindergarten (whole different set

of problems there...). Her father was a teacher (he's retiring this

year) and about half my friends are also teachers, and unfortunately,

they all had or have the same thing to say: it is harder to get kids

nowadays to show respect. And the parents only too occasionally will

collaborate. It's a pity if you ask me. I sincerely believe it all

starts at home, whether it's with showing respect or with other

topics which we have been discussing lately, such as exercise and

nutrition.

[some consolation is that today's kids will be tomorrow's parents and they

will have to learn to deal with even worse discipline problems. When will we

ever learn, when will we ever learn.....? Remember that song? Mel Siff]

Lépine

Vancouver BC

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone!

Just wanted to drop in a quick comment here since I have first hand

experience from the other side.

I'm currently 20 and I went through the Canadian school system from gr.7

to OAC and currently 2nd year post secondary. When I came to Canada in

'93, I was completely apalled by the way teachers were treated. It's not

because the kids are getting dumber or even their parents. It's the way

the system works (or doesn't).

The second teachers were not allowed to punish kids, their

image as any kind of authority figure diminished to very, very little. In

Russia, you get kicked out of the classroom for talking out of turn and then you

hope against

hope that your parents aren't brought in for a discussion with the

teacher or worse yet - the dreaded principal. Should you show any sign of

confrontation, the

teacher has full right to take the ruler, and strike you with it. My

grandfather told me that when he went to school, you got smashed over the hands

for writing with your

left hand. He's left handed and he has perfect handwriting with his

right. ( " you can teach a horse to deal cards - it's only a matter of voltage " ) I

noticed that the

most respected teacher in my school was one of my gym teachers. The

first thing he says to the kids the first time he sees them is " I don't take any

nonsense. I'm not your

mommy or your daddy. If you don't like it here, get the blazes out. " I've never

heard a single

word uttered in disrespect, no backtalk, absolutely nothing.

I also had the chance last year to work as a systems admin for a

highschool. Even though I didn't look like a normal teacher, it was

clear which " side " I was on. Only a few of the very stupid kids ever gave me any

hassle and after showing

that I would not take crap, that disappeared very quickly as well. One

time I was troubleshooting a network issue in a classroom and there was a

substitute teacher. This

was a gr 10 vocational level class. The teacher had a very heavy Indian

accent and spoke very quietly and humbly. The kids quickly started

ignoring him and some even making fun of him. He eventually just sat

down quietly. I didn't want to do anything as I felt it wasn't my place but I

got one of the senior teachers to help him out. He

used simple dog psychology - bark louder and it will back off.

Kid's rights groups can blow hot air all they want but I'm sorry, some

of them cannot be reasoned with. They seem to have comprehension ability

not greatly exceeding that of a dog. You don't reason with them. You correct

them with

negative reinforcement. Russians aren't any smarter than the rest of the

world. I remember we had the same imbeciles in my school. They simply skipped

school or took their 2

(F in the American system) and sat there quietly.

I do think that upbringing has a lot to do with it. Not just individual

households but the culture as a whole. Knock the Communist propaganda

all you want but I remember we sang songs praising Lenin for allowing us the

great gift of

education. You were brought up with the belief that education is not

something your parents or " the system " is forcing you to do but something that

is vital for your success.

[in the old days you could pray to God to offer thanks for education and all

else that you were

given, but now it is against the rules for any prayers to be offered at school

or even for a

teacher to have a Bible or other Holy Book on the desk. Interestingly, since

the Sept 11 tragedy,

many kids and teachers are now praying at schools and the President is daring to

commit the

heinous crime of mixing mention of God with mention of State!! Yes, Russian

communism had its

dark oppressive side, but we note here that American democracy also has its

authoritarian side

(which cannot be wielded by teachers, only the law makers, sociopolitico-crats

and law enforcers)

Whatever one's belief, politics or philosophy, we should be exceedingly grateful

to have access to

education and educators who are willing to show us the way. Mel Siff]

There were also no pinheads running around screaming lawsuits for child abuse

when someone smacks their kid for behaving like an idiot at the local

supermarket. The threat of force from the parents and teachers was very

real. One of my friends once got picked up for throwing snowballs at

passing cars. I was there at the station when his parents picked him up.

He was in tears and as the officer was trying to open the cell, he was

pulling the gate shut so that he wouldn't have to go home. Yeah, he had a

hard time sitting for the next few days because his dad's belt had a big

army brass buckle -but do you want to guess if he ever threw snowballs at cars

again?

I think discipline should be left to those who have to deal with the kids, not

the lawyers.

[And deprive the lawyers of a major source of earnings, who ultimately are the

most consistent

winners in many such cases? Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

----- Original Message -----

Rosemary wrote:

<The difference (I was on a parent committee one time to investigate

the problem) seems to be that there are too many laws that allow a

student too much latitute with discipline rather than with whether or

not they get an education. When I was a kid, if you acted up in

class, you might be told a couple of times, then you were thrown out

and you could explain it not only to the principal, but to your

parents. Rather than getting your ear twisted, parents now very

often try to place the blame on everyone but the child. And kids,

who have never been known to be angels, know the score. It used to be

that if you got in trouble in school, your peer group was very

unimpressed; now it seems to be the opposite. In addition, the

teacher has to fill out a big report and the kid has seven or eight

chances to " reform. " >

writes:

I think you are right on the money with that comment Rosemary. I

experienced it first-hand while teaching high school and although I

still like teaching, it is one of the many reasons that got me to go

back to graduate studies in order to eventually teach at a higher

level (hopefully university... I like teaching, just can't stand the

never-ending disciplining). My girlfriend, who has also been a high

school teacher now for two years, has been experiencing the same

difficulties, although she is getting a break (kind of...) this year

as she took an opportunity to teach kindergarten (whole different set

of problems there...). Her father was a teacher (he's retiring this

year) and about half my friends are also teachers, and unfortunately,

they all had or have the same thing to say: it is harder to get kids

nowadays to show respect. And the parents only too occasionally will

collaborate. It's a pity if you ask me. I sincerely believe it all

starts at home, whether it's with showing respect or with other

topics which we have been discussing lately, such as exercise and

nutrition.

[some consolation is that today's kids will be tomorrow's parents and

they

will have to learn to deal with even worse discipline problems. When

will we

ever learn, when will we ever learn.....? Remember that song? Mel

Siff]

Lépine

Vancouver BC

[Guest guest]

> Big Cat, according to the article, this was college material, but the

> level of education is apparently being dumbed down and many have to

> take remedial courses in college to make up for the lack of training

> in High School.

>

> My son is in 9th grade here in Florida and for his first

> 9 week period he was assigned Life Skills, drafting, basketball and

> Algebra for his four classes. I asked his counselor where the basic

> three Rs were and received no intelligible reply. By the way, he is

> an honor

> student, so imagine what the slower kids get to take. I didn't take

> an

> elective in High School until I was a senior.

i'm familiar with the situation. I took my senior year in Ohio

originally, but upon return to Belgium had to take it again as I lacked

a number of credits to graduate. I graduated with honors, 4.0 average

which includes classes such as American History and citizenship, of

which I had never heard. I had 101.5% for Psychology.

I suppose what strikes me as odd though is that there is a

well-established intellectual society in the United States that is

maintained throughout the generations. Would it hold true for all of

them than that they had to make up for this lack of education once they

got to college ? Or is it just more goal-oriented so they don't have to

take a lot of courses ?

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> As far as sports and personal hygiene classes being credit classes,

> yes they

> are. They were when I went to school (I graduated in 1961).

> However, the

> sports were called " P.E. " and it was a required class. We were also

> run

> through one semester of " Personal Hygiene " . However, that was in

> addition

> to English, History, Math and Science. In looking back on it, I

> received a

> wonderful elementary education that prepared me well for the rest of

> my

> life.

Well something has to be said here as well. While these classes count

as credit classes in the US, they do not in Europe. This has a severe

downside in that some European countries trail the world list of

physical fitness. Belgium being one of the last 5. As much as you are

appalled at the lack of education given in your country, I'm appalled

at the apathy in physical fitness in my country. In the US athletes are

revered and for many children who might never have a chance to go to

college otherwise, sports offers a way in. Which is not the case over

here. Over here you aren't even headline material as an athlete unless

you are either a world-champion, or a soccer player.

> When I was a kid, if you acted up in class, you might be

> told a

> couple of times, then you were thrown out and you could explain it

> not only

> to the principal, but to your parents. Rather than getting your ear

> twisted, parents now very often try to place the blame on everyone

> but the

> child. And kids, who have never been known to be angels, know the

> score.

> It used to be that if you got in trouble in school, your peer group

> was very

> unimpressed; now it seems to be the opposite.

I'm sure many of us can relate. I always found peer pressure to be a

deciding factor in most students' performance. If it is negative then

the student is encouraged to not do well. If it is positive then he is

spurred to try his hardest. Of course being accepted into either group

is equally hard, so one never knows how the dice will roll.

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Surely your raw score for a particular subject should stand as is and

> not be

> weighted against others in the class. I never understood this AAAGH

I believe it to have something to do with controlling the influx of

graduates on the job market. The fees of certain professions held in

high acclaim might fall drastically if too many of the graduates were

allowed to open up shop all at once. Sad but true. Don't know what the

situation is in Australia, but over here it starts with entry exams. If

you don't pass them, you don't get to start classes. And I'm not

talking about some general test like an SAT, but about actual matter.

Then your first two years are called candidacy years, and the name is

apt as all the courses are very general and have very little to do with

what you are studying. These years are used for two reasons only : give

you more background, but mainly to flunk as many students out as

possible. In candidacy years only 1/5th of students goes on to the next

year. And in the final years they operate on quota's. Only so many

students get to graduate. All these measures are put in place to

discourage weaker students who may have dreamed of such a profession

all their lives from starting or finishing this course of education. On

the one hand it creates a very skillful, professional society, but on

the other hand you get a lot of people in jobs that require less

qualifications who are very unhappy in their situation.

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> The second teachers were not allowed to punish kids, their

> image as any kind of authority figure diminished to very, very

> little. In

> Russia, you get kicked out of the classroom for talking out of turn

> and then you hope against

> hope that your parents aren't brought in for a discussion with the

> teacher or worse yet - the dreaded principal. Should you show any

> sign of confrontation, the

> teacher has full right to take the ruler, and strike you with it.

I have to disagree. Belgium is currently second in education only to

Japan, and teachers aren't allowed to do you any bodily harm either, so

I doubt that's where the problem lies. But you seem to have put your

finger on the wound nonetheless. Perhaps there is no punishment

attached, at least none strong enough, for doing bad in school. In

Russia it's the ruler, over here its social degradation. We are a

country with as many inhabitants as the state of Ohio, but on a surface

1/6th the size. If you don't have an education here, you won't get a

job, simple as that. In the States there simply isn't enough social

motivation to spur students to learn more, and perhaps that's why the

curriculum is so shallow and not diversified enough. The United States

has a lot of job opportunities that don't require much if any

education. Its also the only country in the West that still has a

primary sector worth mentioning. So there are plenty of opportunities

for the unskilled.

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Big Cat, despite the limitations of the educational system, the kids that

want to learn can get the courses they need for college. My oldest daughter

took college courses in HS and entered college as a soph. Dual enrollment

{HS with College} and other programs are available but they must be mapped

out to take full advantage of the opportunities. Some kinds graduate from HS

with a 2 yr AA degree from the local Comm College.

Charlie Newkerk, C.S.C.S.

Re: Re: Modern Education and Intellect

>

> > Big Cat, according to the article, this was college material, but the

> > level of education is apparently being dumbed down and many have to

> > take remedial courses in college to make up for the lack of training

> > in High School.

> >

> > My son is in 9th grade here in Florida and for his first

> > 9 week period he was assigned Life Skills, drafting, basketball and

> > Algebra for his four classes. I asked his counselor where the basic

> > three Rs were and received no intelligible reply. By the way, he is

> > an honor

> > student, so imagine what the slower kids get to take. I didn't take

> > an

> > elective in High School until I was a senior.

>

> i'm familiar with the situation. I took my senior year in Ohio

> originally, but upon return to Belgium had to take it again as I lacked

> a number of credits to graduate. I graduated with honors, 4.0 average

> which includes classes such as American History and citizenship, of

> which I had never heard. I had 101.5% for Psychology.

>

> I suppose what strikes me as odd though is that there is a

> well-established intellectual society in the United States that is

> maintained throughout the generations. Would it hold true for all of

> them than that they had to make up for this lack of education once they

> got to college ? Or is it just more goal-oriented so they don't have to

> take a lot of courses ?

>

> Van Mol

> Belgium

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

One of the best things to come along in quite a while that seems to help

with discipline is the requirement that everyone wear a uniform. In some

schools, there has been a big hue and cry while in others, everyone went

along with it. Because of the type of government in the U.S., the schools

couldn't enforce the wearing of uniforms, but it was amazing how quickly

those who at first refused, ended up conforming! One thing they did not do,

however, was dictate hair coloring or makeup so you saw some pretty strange

stuff mixed in with the plaid and oxfords!

When I lived in Santa , the school district offered low income parents

monetary help to purchase the clothing since it was jeans one day and

uniforms the next. However, as friends of mine said, the uniforms were

actually much cheaper than all the designer clothing and latest fad garb the

kids insisted on having. It also cleaned up the " grubbers " who tended to

wear the same clothing for the entire semester. Although this hadn't

reached the high school level by the time I moved, it was working extremely

well in elementary schools and the high school was looking at it seriously.

Hopefully they will hold the hard line, should they decide to go this route,

and not buckle under to the whining of the kids.

[it always afforded us great pride to be able to recognise fellow students

wherever

we went because we all had to wear neat standard uniforms. If schools would

design

very impressive uniforms such as striking sweatsuits (tracksuits), sweaters

and other trendy corporate type semi-formal outfits to turn the uniform into a

special symbol of pride and solidarity, we would find that kids would clamour to

wear school " uniforms " . After all, so many kids love to wear the colours

of their local NFL, NBA, NHL and other sporting heroes - why not let them become

their

own heroes, their own exemplars? It might even engender a special fondness for

their

schools and the school tradition. And, Rosemary is quite correct, uniforms are

far

cheaper, and it is far quicker and less competitive to dress for school. I

still own my

various university and award blazers and sweatsuits and periodically pull them

out

of my closet to gaze upon them with great affection. When I feel like lifting

heavy, I

occasionally indulge myself, recall the past and don my official blue and gold

university lifting

colours and hurry to my gym. Kids actually are losing so much by NOT wearing

uniforms - ask any Marine about uniforms, pride and team spirit! Mel Siff]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Marina del Rey, CA

IronRoses@...

[Guest guest]

It's interesting that most of this boils down to " discipline, " which doesn't

always mean that meted out by someone in authority. Much has to do with

" SELF-DISCIPLINE " which seems to be in very short supply. Many older folks

blame this on television and the fact that many kids in the U.S. are born

with a " silver spoon " meaning that they are given every little thing the

minute they want it.

Realizing that whacking an out of control kid (the older they are the more

they seem to deserve it!) was the method of choice for a long while, this

can simply cause it to be perpetuated and isn't really necessary. Besides,

a lot of these so-called " children " are way too big for that to be effective.

Many years ago, a friend of mine, who was a small woman, told me that her

two sons very soon " outgrew " her so that hitting them actually caused her

more physical pain than it did them! She quickly developed another method

of disciplining them which worked beautifully and which I also employed to

excellent results. The first reality you must face is that these kids are

not stupid, even though they act like they are. They do not have the short

memory of a dog who needs to have his/her nosed rubbed in it immediately or

the meaning is lost.

When they are told not to do something and don't obey (we're not talking

about criminal actions here), nothing is said. Then the next time they want

something, they are simply told quietly " No, because when I asked you to

(whatever) you didn't comply, so this (the denial of whatever it may be) is

the punishment for not complying. It doesn't take very long before every

word you utter will be heard, even if you whisper! But you must stick to

your guns the first few times around and NOT give in no matter what.

This is more difficult to do than it is to write in words because it's hard

for the parent to control his/her emotions. But after awhile you get the

hang of it because you have the satisfaction that you will have the last

word, whether it's in a couple of hours or even a week later. In fact, the

later it occurs the more painful it is for the recipient. I don't know

whether this would work for a school teacher but it might be worth a try.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Marina del Rey, CA

IronRoses@...

[Guest guest]

I agree 100% with what you said. While I still believe that physical

punishment should still be allowed, I think it is also definitely a

matter of culture, which I noted before. In North America, being the big

" rebel " is known as the best thing you could do (particularely when you

are young). It started off as being against Fascism, Communism, Racism

and now it somehow translated into that being a rude imbecile somehow

qualifies. " Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone " right? Speaking of

Pink Floyd, just as you said, " You didn't like school, now welcome to

the machine " .

I agree that it is possible to find employment here with

next to no education but it will never be anything beyond mediocre (at

best). When I started going to University last year, it was about as big

a culture shock in terms of educational atmosphere as when I started

going to school here after going to school in Russia. There are still

trouble makers and generally unpleasant people but here, even they know

that during a lecture, you bite your tongue.

I think it also has to do with the fact that students view the education

completely differently.

In high school, it's something you HAVE to do and you just have to get

through it. In University, you fight to get there and you fight and pay

to stay there. I remember in one of my major course lectures last year,

a guy was talking in the back of the class (700 people, very hard to

hear). The lecturer eventually stopped, walked up to him, said " please

leave and don't come back. I will see that you get your money refunded. "

I saw the guy crying after class. Why not make high school more

competetive?

The " rebels " from highschool are now either flipping burgers or doing

gr. 10 for the 5th time in a row. In Russia, as I'm sure in Belgium,

these people would have become bums and/or thieves. Instead, they eke

through life blaming everyone but themselves.

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

-------------

From: Big Cat

> The second teachers were not allowed to punish kids, their

> image as any kind of authority figure diminished to very, very

> little. In

> Russia, you get kicked out of the classroom for talking out of turn

> and then you hope against

> hope that your parents aren't brought in for a discussion with the

> teacher or worse yet - the dreaded principal. Should you show any

> sign of confrontation, the

> teacher has full right to take the ruler, and strike you with it.

I have to disagree. Belgium is currently second in education only to

Japan, and teachers aren't allowed to do you any bodily harm either,

so

I doubt that's where the problem lies. But you seem to have put your

finger on the wound nonetheless. Perhaps there is no punishment

attached, at least none strong enough, for doing bad in school. In

Russia it's the ruler, over here its social degradation. We are a

country with as many inhabitants as the state of Ohio, but on a

surface

1/6th the size. If you don't have an education here, you won't get a

job, simple as that. In the States there simply isn't enough social

motivation to spur students to learn more, and perhaps that's why the

curriculum is so shallow and not diversified enough. The United States

has a lot of job opportunities that don't require much if any

education. Its also the only country in the West that still has a

primary sector worth mentioning. So there are plenty of opportunities

for the unskilled.

Van Mol

Belgium

[Guest guest]

I wrote (almost):

<I don't take any nonsense. I'm not your mommy or your daddy. If you

don't like it here, get the blazes out.>

C'mon Dr Siff, that's not what he said. :-)

[My knowledge of conversational Russian is not very good. OK? Mel Siff]

Dr Siff wrote:

[in the old days you could pray to God to offer thanks for education and all

else that you were

given, but now it is against the rules for any prayers to be offered at school

or even for a

teacher to have a Bible or other Holy Book on the desk. Interestingly, since the

Sept 11 tragedy,

many kids and teachers are now praying at schools and the President is

daring to commit the heinous crime of mixing mention of God with mention of

State!! Yes,

Russian communism had its dark oppressive side, but we note here that American

democracy also

has its authoritarian side (which cannot be wielded by teachers, only the law

makers,

sociopolitico-crats and law enforcers) Whatever one's belief, politics or

philosophy, we should be

exceedingly grateful to have access to education and educators who are willing

to show us the way.]

Well, in America, I understand why this is the case. The religious

diversity demands it. Even a general prayer with no reference to who you

hold God to be could be discrimination because some don't believe at

all. In Russia, you were Orthodox. If you didn't believe at all, you

kept it to yourself and hoped no one found out. In Stalin's days, you

would have probably been shot. It's a harsh way to enforce order but oh

baby did it ever work!!!

Look at what's happening now! Angry, poor, depressed and opressed people all of

a sudden given absolute freedom.

Yikes!!! I could blindly tape any 3 hours of TV there and I don't have

to watch it. I can sell it as porn and will almost always be right. My

dad visited last year and saw a man get run over in front of a cop. The

guy pulled out some bills and was on his way. You don't jail and torture

someone for 70 years and then let go and expect them to play nice.

The totalitarian Russian regime (it was not Communist, nothing that

was happening had anything in common with what Marx wrote) might not be

the way but I think some of its aspects should somehow be integrated

into the American system. Some people have enough sense to give

themselves limits. Others are like dogs. They will push you to see how

far they can go until you bite back. If you don't, well, it's high

times!

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

[Guest guest]

> [it always afforded us great pride to be able to recognise fellow

> students wherever

> we went because we all had to wear neat standard uniforms. If

> schools would design

> very impressive uniforms such as striking sweatsuits (tracksuits),

> sweaters

> and other trendy corporate type semi-formal outfits to turn the

> uniform into a

> special symbol of pride and solidarity, we would find that kids would

> clamour to

> wear school " uniforms " . After all, so many kids love to wear the

> colours

> of their local NFL, NBA, NHL and other sporting heroes - why not let

> them become their

> own heroes, their own exemplars? It might even engender a special

> fondness for their

> schools and the school tradition. And, Rosemary is quite correct,

> uniforms are far

> cheaper, and it is far quicker and less competitive to dress for

> school. I still own my

> various university and award blazers and sweatsuits and periodically

> pull them out

> of my closet to gaze upon them with great affection. When I feel

> like lifting heavy, I

> occasionally indulge myself, recall the past and don my official blue

> and gold university lifting

> colours and hurry to my gym. Kids actually are losing so much by NOT

> wearing

> uniforms - ask any Marine about uniforms, pride and team spirit! Mel

> Siff]

Now there is a great idea ! I mean a lot of kids look up to the

school's best athletes, and in my school in Ohio, team members always

wore the school colours the Friday before a game. It was a symbol of

pride. I found that to be a great to express your solidarity with the

team, the school and your fellow students. Its a novel idea to the

uniform. I love it !

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Racism

> and now it somehow translated into that being a rude imbecile somehow

> qualifies. " Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone " right? Speaking of

> Pink Floyd, just as you said, " You didn't like school, now welcome to

> the machine " .

Reality is the cruelest teacher ...

> I think it also has to do with the fact that students view the

> education completely differently.

> In high school, it's something you HAVE to do and you just have to

> get

> through it. In University, you fight to get there and you fight and

> pay

> to stay there. I remember in one of my major course lectures last

> year,

> a guy was talking in the back of the class (700 people, very hard to

> hear). The lecturer eventually stopped, walked up to him, said

> " please

> leave and don't come back. I will see that you get your money

> refunded. "

> I saw the guy crying after class. Why not make high school more

> competetive?

Bingo ! I'm loving this idea all the way. Don't talk to the person,

talk to the wallet. That always gets them. Especially since all of

these kids have to explain to the one who pays the bills (In 80% of the

cases mommy and daddy) that they got kicked out. Its a difficult thing

to apply to HS as its free though. And other levels of competition are

difficult. Intellectually and sportively have already failed.

> The " rebels " from highschool are now either flipping burgers or doing

> gr. 10 for the 5th time in a row. In Russia, as I'm sure in Belgium,

> these people would have become bums and/or thieves. Instead, they eke

> through life blaming everyone but themselves.

These people dissappear, and if they are heard of again, its usually in

a negative connotation. I know for a fact what happened to some of the

biggest troublemakers in my day. One ended up flipping and ended up in

the looney bin. Sad because he was a gifted artist. Another is on

welfare. He went to the army, didn't last, worked in a jeans store

owned by his girlfriends father. They broke up, he got canned. The rest

you know. Another one drives a public transit bus. The list goes on.

Now we have three echelons in our HS system. One general direction

intended for people going or planning on college. One technical

direction for the people who become informatics and electricians, as

they get schooled as apprentices and one professional direction, where

a manual labor profession is taught. Now I'm on the top echelon and

that's what happened to the worst of my class, imagine where the worst

of the lower echelons end up ...

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Is there really any empirical data to support the notion that

US's education system is declining? Here's some arguments I

came across that suggest that the picture is more complicated.

Researchers at Sandia reported the following conclusion in April,

1992:

-Our most detailed analyses to date have focused on popular measures

used to discuss the status of education in America. We looked at data

over time to put performance of the current system in proper

perspective. To our surprise, on nearly every measure we found steady

or slightly improving trends " . (Carson, Huelskamp, and Woodall, p.259)

-A 1996 report by the National Science Foundation found that student

achievement in Math and Science as measured by the National

Assessment of Educational Progress exams has improved for all ethnic

groups over the last 15 years. These achievements vary widely from

state to state with some states performing at a level equal to the

best performing nations in the world and some states at a level equal

to the worst performing nations. In addition, the racial gap in

performance levels, while still evident, was narrowing.

-A 1996 report by the college board indicates that American students

continue to improve their SAT scores. Math scores were the best in

more than two decades. The scores on ACT college entrance tests have

also risen. (Tabor; 2/27/96). ..In The Manufactured Crisis (1995),

authors Berliner and Biddle challenge those who argue that today's

students are not as intelligent or able as students of the past. They

offer the following points: " ... since 1932 the mean IQ for white

Americans age two to 75 has risen about .3 points each year (p. 43).

Scores for other groups are not available. In the United States,

today's youth probably average about 15 IQ points higher than did

their grandparents and 7.5 points higher than their parents on the

Stanford-Binet and Wechsler tests " . (p. 43). Berliner and Biddle note

that " ... evidence from the NAEP also does not confirm the myth of a

recent decline in American student achievement. Instead, it indicates

a general pattern of stable achievement combined with modest growth

in achievement among students from minority groups and from 'less

advantaged' backgrounds " . (pp. 25-26).

-In a critical examination of state and regional variations in SAT

performance, and Steelman found that the decline in national

test scores cited by critics of public education did not reflect the

major test score differences between states which are much larger

than the decline in test scores over time. Studies asserting a

pattern of lowered College entrance test scores over time have failed

to adjust for the increased number of students taking the tests as

college education becomes an option for more than an elite minority.

These variations in test score results on a state by state basis were

due to factors such as family income, percentage of students taking

the test, race, gender, class size, urbanization, etc. ( and

Steelman; 1984).

-In their 1996 study, and Steelman found higher per pupil

expenditures and lower teacher student ratios are significantly

correlated with higher test scores on the SAT and ACT exams. Graham

and Husted replicated the 1984 findings in a 1992

comprehensive analysis of test scores and the socio-demographic

characteristics of the test takers and their families. The findings

showed that race, sex, income and parents' educational level are

significant determinants of student performance in addition to state

participation rates. Denigration of public schools and their teachers

based on studies that do not include these key variables have no

basis in fact. (Graham and Husted; 1993).

-Despite the research showing that unions are not responsible for

poor test scores, school violence and all other forms of educational

pathology, advocates of privatization continue to assail public

education and teachers on the front lines.

-Recent data show that someone taking the SAT can expect to score an

extra 30 test points for every $10,000 in parents' yearly income.

Dropout rates are directly related to poverty, and none of the powers

demanding standardization are prepared to address the question of

poverty.

-Those factors found to be significantly related to poor performance

are: low household income, race (which is correlated with other

measures of socioeconomic deprivation), large class size, high

absenteeism, and higher rates of private school attendance. Thus, The

underlying causes of poor performance among children are primarily

socio-economic factors in children's lives and the lack of adequate

educational resources.

-The Use of a Single Statistic

Use of a single score (a ranking) to summarize the entire U.S. system

of education is simplistic and ignores the variation which exists

among the fifty states, as well as the differences found among school

systems within each state. This is especially critical in a country

such as the United States which is extremely diverse and has great

variation in the quality of its public schools. For example, in the

1992 international assessment of mathematics, U.S. 13-year-olds

ranked 13th among 15 nations. However, if other reporting categories

are used, a far different picture emerges. In this instance, Asian-

American students scored the highest on this assessment, while

students from Iowa and North Dakota tied with Korea for third.

· Asian students, U.S. Schools (287)

· Taiwan (285)

· Korea, Iowa, North Dakota (283)

· Advantaged urban students, U.S. (283)

· White students, U.S. schools (277)

· Hungary, Wisconsin (277)

In contrast, the lowest ranked categories were as follows:

· Jordan (246)

· Mississippi (246)

· Hispanic students, U.S. schools (245)

· Disadvantaged urban students, U.S. (239)

· Black students, U.S. (236)

· District of Columbia (234)

http://www.weac.org/Resource/Primer98/evidenc.htm

International polls suggest that the US is in the middle of the pack

in education (in tests on reading, math and science )among 15 year

olds among OECD nations. Of interest note who is at the top and note

what type of education system they have.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4312611,00.html

Gus Karageorgos

Toronto, Canada

[Guest guest]

*** In primary school I was taught by the Christian Brothers and was

'fortunate' to have been educated in quite a disciplined environment. I

remember having to sit at our desks up nice and tall (absolutely NO

slouching !!) with our arms folded. If your hands were out on the desk then

the brother would come around and with his cane whack the desk with an

almighty 'thud' about 0.5cm from your fingernails. The vibration that

reverberated through the desk and up your arms was definitely enough to

'remind' you of how to sit

[i know exactly what you are talking about, since I had all of my school

education under the Marist Brothers and don't think that I am much the worse

for the discipline and teaching. Mel Siff]

Aaah those were the days Does somebody want to give me some odds how

many students I will find sitting in my classes up nice and tall with their

hands folded and, heaven forbid, wanting to actually learn something ?

Ben Freeman

Melbourne, Australia

----------------------------------------------

Dmitry Voronin:

I don't take any nonsense. I'm not your mommy or your daddy. If you

don't like it here, get the blazes out.

.............

The totalitarian Russian regime (it was not Communist, nothing that

was happening had anything in common with what Marx wrote) might not be

the way but I think some of its aspects should somehow be integrated

into the American system. Some people have enough sense to give

themselves limits. Others are like dogs. They will push you to see how

far they can go until you bite back. If you don't, well, it's high

times!

[Guest guest]

> Is there really any empirical data to support the notion that

> US's education system is declining? Here's some arguments I

> came across that suggest that the picture is more complicated.

Its not so much a decline, as that it has always been quite bad.

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

:

The big change in American schools is a change in testing procedures.

Testing is big business. The testing industry has just received a windfall

because the president, in order to improve education, provided more money

for testing--not teaching, equipment, books or teachers.

Up until the Great Society, only middle class and upper class students were

tested; hence the scores were higher. In the 60's when welfare checks were

tied to schools attendance and testing, the scores dropped significantly.

The students who were always truant were suddenly in the schools or their

parents lost their checks.

The greatest change in American schooling came with the fact of greater

attendance by pupils who in the past simply did not attend school. All

pupils are now tested (in New York City) and given the Regents which used to

be reserved to college bound students.

There are many other problems including the fact that we have no national

standards and we confuse states rights with education and the schools are a

political and religious battleground with some of the stupidest people in

America demanding the power to decide what is taught.

But the simple decline in scores comes with kids who used to spend their

days in the pool halls taking the SATs.

And this is not an elitist view. The reason their scores are so low is

because these non-students now attend school. They do not study. One

cannot be forced to study. But one can be forced to take a test.

: I know this is not the scientific answer you requested but this comes

from someone who spent five years in the New York Public Schools and seven

years teaching at Rome's International School where we used similar

curricula and we both sought accreditation from the same American source..

ron

Ron Dobrin

www.dolfzine.com

New York City

> > Is there really any empirical data to support the notion that

> > US's education system is declining? Here's some arguments I

> > came across that suggest that the picture is more complicated.

>

> Its not so much a decline, as that it has always been quite bad.

>

> Van Mol

> Belgium

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

> Up until the Great Society, only middle class and upper class

> students were

> tested; hence the scores were higher. In the 60's when welfare

> checks were

> tied to schools attendance and testing, the scores dropped

> significantly.

> The students who were always truant were suddenly in the schools or

> their

> parents lost their checks.

> : I know this is not the scientific answer you requested but

> this comes

> from someone who spent five years in the New York Public Schools and

> seven

> years teaching at Rome's International School where we used similar

> curricula and we both sought accreditation from the same American

> source..

I would have to disagree. While that would account for a decline, it

doesn't account for the abysmal state. In Belgium everyone is forced to

go to school until they are 18; we have no choice. If you are truant

for more than a number of days without the proper legitimation the cops

will come to your house to get you. Yet our school system seems to be

thriving. Things that were taught in first year college 30 years ago

are not being taught in 8th or 9th grade.

I think the mistake here was to throw all these children in the same

classroom and have them do their own thing. Here we have three separate

school systems, depended on whether you are headed into a manual,

technical or a more scientific profession. Which allows each to

progress at its own tempo.

[i have also heard that it is quite rare for a child to be failed by the

teachers

in most American schools, unless he/she consistently does not attend classes

or hand in most assignments. Is this correct? Mel Siff]

Van Mol

Belgium

[Guest guest]

:

There is no way you can compare the social problems in Belgium with those in

the United States where we don't have a national language and it is

considered un-American to force a child to learn English unless his parents

consent. Our schools represent the tower of Babel.

[i have also heard that it is quite rare for a child to be failed by the

teachers

in most American schools, unless he/she consistently does not attend

classes or hand in most assignments. Is this correct? Mel Siff]

Mel, this is called social promotion and, though it is publicly frowned upon,

if more than a small percent of students fail, it is called the teacher's

failure and generally a teacher who does not pass at least 55% of students

will be dismissed or put under such pressure that he/she will resign. The

largest group of highly qualified teachers in New York City work in

secretarial positions where their language skills are appreciated and they

are paid much more than teachers. (Law firms welcome teachers.)

Testing on the state level. When I taught in New York City, teachers graded

the statewide tests and we were not allowed to leave for Christmas Holidays

until 60% of our students passed. Every few hours the administration would

come in and announce, these tests need to be re-graded: only 35% passed.

When students are faced with standardized national college tests (graded by

machines) (after 12 years of social promotion) although they have passed the

yearly tests, many of them rate as if they were in the first year of

elementary school. Hence the national average falls.

It is un-American to separate students according to ability and place them

into vocational schools. Every student has a right to a college education in

America.

[Amazing then that corporations and firms do their very best to separate

employees

according to ability and promote those who perform especially well! Then

American

society adulates the wealthy and powerful who stand out in this adult separation

game!

What is un-American at school level academically is very American at university,

corporate and

governmental level. Interestingly, kids are separated very ruthlessly in school

sports -

why is it so different academically? So many contradictions! Mel Siff]

There are some truant schools in New York City. The effective ones are

called prisons. The ones that pretend to be schools teach little. The

effective teachers are more police officers than teachers.

We have a certain ungovernable class of student that has been brought up in

poverty, with no parental supervision, who speak very little of any

language, who are tossed into the huge bureaucracy called public education.

Many of the girls are already pregnant by age 12; almost all of these

students are in such emotional pain that they are drugged all the time.

Many are homeless and live in the streets. Many attend school because they

get a free meal that they don't have to steal.

We have an underclass that is so low in this wealthy society and these

children after 12 years of surviving the streets are given college bound

testing.

What is different is that America has now included " homeless " on its census

and government forms. People live in box cities. When Giuliani was hailed

for improving the quality of living in the city, he rounded up the people in

box cities and moved them out of town.

There is no way to educate this class until they are housed, fed and brought

up with supervision, something that is so difficult that the Congress does

not deal with this...and this is both Republican and Democrat. They pretend

that these children do not exist.

America is so confused with the concept of rights that a person has right

to live in the streets; has a right to not be inoculated for disease, has a

right not to learn English; has a right to bathe in the sink at the public

library and sleep in the streets. Most small towns just ignore the laws and

deal with the problems on a one-to-one basis but the big cities cannot do

that. There are civil liberties groups that will fight for the right of

these lost children not to be coerced into a life that they think they don't

want.

This is part of a national shame that shows in testing and is revealed on

television for comic reasons on programs like The Jerry Springer Show.

[Maybe some more Americans who still enjoy reading should read some of that

lengthy collection of volumes by Gibbon, " The Decline and Fall of

the Roman Empire " to remind themselves how even the most long-lived

kingdoms can fall from glory. Mel Siff]

Ron Dobrin

www.dolfzine.com

New York City

--------------------

'

From: " Big Cat " <raven1008@...>

> > Up until the Great Society, only middle class and upper class students were

> > tested; hence the scores were higher. In the 60's when welfare checks were

> > tied to schools attendance and testing, the scores dropped significantly.

> > The students who were always truant were suddenly in the schools or their

> > parents lost their checks.

>

> > : I know this is not the scientific answer you requested but this comes

> > from someone who spent five years in the New York Public Schools and seven

> > years teaching at Rome's International School where we used similar

> > curricula and we both sought accreditation from the same American source..

>

> I would have to disagree. While that would account for a decline, it

> doesn't account for the abysmal state. In Belgium everyone is forced to

> go to school until they are 18; we have no choice. If you are truant

> for more than a number of days without the proper legitimation the cops

> will come to your house to get you. Yet our school system seems to be

> thriving. Things that were taught in first year college 30 years ago

> are not being taught in 8th or 9th grade.

>

> I think the mistake here was to throw all these children in the same

> classroom and have them do their own thing. Here we have three separate

> school systems, depended on whether you are headed into a manual,

> technical or a more scientific profession. Which allows each to

> progress at its own tempo.

>

> Van Mol

> Belgium

[Guest guest]

> There is no way you can compare the social problems in Belgium with

> those in

> the United States where we don't have a national language and it is

> considered un-American to force a child to learn English unless his

> parents

> consent. Our schools represent the tower of Babel.

Not to state the painfully obvious, but the US has only one official

laguage, Belgium has three ... and English isn't one of them. Here we

are not only forced to master the language of our region, but at least

two others as well or we never graduate.

> Testing on the state level. When I taught in New York City, teachers

> graded

> the statewide tests and we were not allowed to leave for Christmas

> Holidays

> until 60% of our students passed. Every few hours the administration

> would

> come in and announce, these tests need to be re-graded: only 35%

> passed.

That seems like a bigger problem. you can't grade on a curve if you are

trying to improve the results. If every student decides its not worth

it, you could have kids graduating that don't know anything.

> It is un-American to separate students according to ability and

place

> them

> into vocational schools. Every student has a right to a college

> education in

> America.

So does everyone here, you can try any direction until you give up, but

they will not pass you just because you can't hack it. YOu can even

enroll straight in college and keep trying. Its your money after all.

Nobody here is forcing anyone to give anything up, merely to look at

yourself and estimate your chances. If these kids truly wanted to go to

college, they could stay in higher level education until they graduate.

Its free after all. Even if it takes them until they are 30 years of

age. Every student has the right to go to college, but more importantly

every student has the right to learn according to his abilities without

being held back because the kid sitting next to him is too slow.

>

> [What is un-American at school level academically is very American at

> university, corporate and

> governmental level. Interestingly, kids are separated very

> ruthlessly in school sports -

> why is it so different academically? So many contradictions! Mel

> Siff]

This I don't comprehend either. They had no problem sticking me on a JV

team when I started to play American football because I could not

perform at Varsity. I was only allowed on Varsity when I could perform

at that level.

> There are some truant schools in New York City. The effective ones

> are

> called prisons.

Odd that you say that because sometimes I felt like my school was a

prison, since we are forced to attend. But upon finishing I do not

regret that.

> This is part of a national shame that shows in testing and is

> revealed on

> television for comic reasons on programs like The Jerry Springer

> Show.

>

> [Maybe some more Americans who still enjoy reading should read some

> of that

> lengthy collection of volumes by Gibbon, " The Decline and Fall

> of

> the Roman Empire " to remind themselves how even the most long-lived

> kingdoms can fall from glory. Mel Siff]

There are other ways to maintain an empire however. First of all, at a

college level there is a very elitest approach, unlike at the high

school level and the ones that can't follow are weeded out. They do not

separate them in high school, but once at college you have your state

colleged, national colleges and Ivy league. And should education fail

after all, as it would seem, then the trend of employing top graduates

from abroad will continue. That keeps America at the top economically,

without having to be the driving force. Many graduating engineers and

such are employed by american companies straight out of college here,

which is why its a popular career.

Van Mol

Belgium

__________________________________________________