Non-Physical Life?

January 2, 2002

The issue of " life after death " and the persistence of some non-physical

aspect of humans has existed since the dawn of humankind and now science is

beginning to devote some more serious attention to the experiences reported

by people who have survived " near death experiences " (NDE). Here is a new

report on such recent research, followed by an abstract of the article on

which this story was based.

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Scientist says Mind continues after Brain dies

6.29.01 Reuters

LOS ANGELES A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he is

finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue after the

brain has stopped functioning and a patient is clinically dead. The research,

presented to scientists last week at the California Institute of Technology

(Caltech), resurrects the debate over whether there is life after death and

whether there is such a thing as the human soul.

" The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people with no

brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought processes with

reasoning and memory formation at a time when their brains are shown not to

function, " Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital

in England who have been studying so-called near- death experiences (NDEs),

told Reuters in an interview. " We need to do much larger-scale studies, but

the possibility is certainly there " to suggest that consciousness, or the

soul, keeps thinking and reasoning even if a person's heart has stopped, he

is not breathing and his brain activity is nil, Parnia said.

He said he and colleagues conducted an initial yearlong study, the results of

which appeared in the February issue of the journal Resuscitation. The study

was so promising the doctors formed a foundation to fund further research and

continue collecting data. During the initial study, Parnia said, 63 heart

attack patients who were deemed clinically dead but were later revived were

interviewed within a week of their experiences. Of those, 56 said they had no

recollection of the time they were unconscious and seven reported having

memories. Of those, four were labeled NDEs in that they reported lucid

memories of thinking, reasoning, moving about and communicating with others

after doctors determined their brains were not functioning.

Feelings of Peace

Among other things, the patients reported remembering feelings of peace, joy

and harmony. For some, time sped up, senses heightened and they lost

awareness of their bodies. The patients also reported seeing a bright light,

entering another realm and communicating with dead relatives. One, who called

himself a lapsed Catholic and Pagan, reported a close encounter with a

mystical being. Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but

in Parnia's study none of the patients were found to have received low oxygen

levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to the phenomenon. When

the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally confused, thrash around

and usually have no memories at all, Parnia said. " Here you have a severe

insult to the brain but perfect memory. "

Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in the moments

they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But Parnia said when a brain

is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck a patient generally does not

remember moments just before or after losing consciousness. Rather, there is

usually a memory lapse of hours or days. " Talk to them. They'll tell you

something like: 'I just remember seeing the car and the next thing I knew I

was in the hospital, " ' he said. " With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain

is so severe it stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect

profound memory loss before and after the incident, " he added.

Since the initial experiment, Parnia and his colleagues have found more than

3500 people with lucid memories that apparently occurred at times they were

thought to be clinically dead. Many of the patients, he said, were reluctant

to share their experiences, fearing they would be thought crazy.

A Toddler's Tale

One patient was 2? old when he had a seizure and his heart stopped. His

parents contacted Parnia after the boy " drew a picture of himself as if out

of his body looking down at himself. It was drawn like there was a balloon

stuck to him. When they asked what the balloon was he said, 'When you die you

see a bright light and you are connected to a cord.' He wasn't even 3 when

had the experience, " Parnia said. " What his parents noticed was that after he

had been discharged from hospital, six months after the incident, he kept

drawing the same scene. " The brain function these patients were found to have

while unconscious is commonly believed to be incapable of sustaining lucid

thought processes or allowing lasting memories to form, Parnia said, pointing

to the fact that nobody fully grasps how the brain generates thoughts.

The brain itself is made up of cells, like all the body's organs, and is not

really capable of producing the subjective phenomenon of thought that people

have, he said. He speculated that human consciousness may work independently

of the brain, using the gray matter as a mechanism to manifest the thoughts,

just as a television set translates waves in the air into picture and sound.

" When you damage the brain or lose some of the aspects of mind or

personality, that doesn't necessarily mean the mind is being produced by the

brain. All it shows is that the apparatus is damaged, " Parnia said, adding

that further research might reveal the existence of a soul. " When these

people are having experiences they say, 'I had this intense pain in my chest

and suddenly I was drifting in the corner of my room and I was so happy, so

comfortable. I looked down and realized I was seeing my body and doctors all

around me trying to save me and I didn't want to go back.

" The point is they are describing seeing this thing in the room, which is

their body. Nobody ever says, 'I had this pain and the next thing I knew my

soul left me. " '

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Resuscitation 2001 Feb; 48(2): 149-56

A qualitative and quantitative study of the incidence, features and aetiology

of near death

experiences in cardiac arrest survivors.

Parnia S, Waller DG, Yeates R, Fenwick P.

AIM: To carry out a prospective study of cardiac arrest survivors to

understand the qualitative features as well as incidence, and possible

aetiology of near death experiences (NDEs) in this group of patients.

METHOD: All survivors of cardiac arrests during a 1 year period were

interviewed within a week of their arrest, regarding memories of their

unconscious period. Reported memories were assessed by the Greyson NDE Scale.

The postulated role of physiological, psychological and transcendental

factors were studied. Physiological parameters such as oxygen status were

extracted from the medical notes. Patients' religious convictions were

documented in the interviews and hidden targets were used to test the

transcendental theories on potential out of body claims. Those with memories

were compared to those without memories.

RESULTS: 11.1% of 63 survivors reported memories. The majority had NDE

features. There appeared to be no differences on all physiological measured

parameters apart from partial pressure of oxygen during the arrest which was

higher in the NDE group.

CONCLUSIONS: Memories are rare after resuscitation from cardiac arrest. The

majority of those that are reported have features of NDE and are pleasant.

The occurrence of NDE during cardiac arrest raises questions about the

possible relationship between the mind and the brain. Further large-scale

studies are needed to understand the aetiology and true significance of NDE.

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Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

Supertraining/

January 2, 2002

Mel Siff quoted:

<Scientist says Mind continues after Brain dies

6.29.01 Reuters

LOS ANGELES A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he

is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue after the

brain has stopped functioning and a patient is clinically dead.>

Casler writes:

Although I don't consider myself a scientist, I find it difficult to

grasp how a true scientist can make such statements.

It seems that these " researchers " have completely ignored the fact that

without physical sensation, we have NO consciousness. Even the state

which we term " unconscious " is in fact still a consciousness, based on

the workings of a physical body and brain.

There is no way to prove that once the CNS and the Brain are

non-existent, as in death, that there is any means to perceive and

realize events, acts, passage of time etc. They seem to forget that

seeing, hearing and all the senses that define consciousness are no

longer able to function. They neglect to mention just where those who

hover over there dead or dying bodies are (as in what entity is storing

the memory) and what eyes are seeing this event.

And if we don't have eyes, how much can we see? This may seem like a

strange question since we have been programmed since childhood with the

fantasy that " Santa is watching " , or other such non-eyed awareness, but

the fact remains there is no verifiable event in the world's history

where anyone has seen anything real without the human eye. (actually

eye/brain combination) If you can't see it, all you can do is imagine

it. Imagination is not reality.

Eyes cannot " see " anything without a brain to complete the system. So,

just as a rock (unless made into a silicone chip) has no eyes (or ears

or other sensory organs) and no brain, it has no consciousness and it

actually has a physical existence. If there is no physical existence,

how could we possibly begin to perceive " any " state of consciousness?

Until we are able to prove that energy carries with it a consciousness

that can be " realized " in some way by a non-contained entity, then I

feel this premise is futile. " All " of these reports are based on

information retrieved from the human brain. Does that tell us anything?

No brain, no consciousness!

Of course we can get very mystical and say " everything is everything "

and that we know and experience it all through a " collective cosmic

consciousness " , but the concept of the " all knowing " is rather difficult

to grasp for most and is as much " no consciousness " as it is " all

consciousness " . Gee if there where such an existence and all these

" physical " abilities were possible, might other physical abilities be

possible too? NO! This is Leary Land. Existence is based on a

perceived reality. Awareness is based on physical perceptions.

Descartes stated " I think, therefore I am " . I would say it is

impossible to think or perceive without the system to accomplish this

task.

How can you record and retrieve memories or knowledge without the

electrochemical processes of the brain? You cannot.

[This was precisely one of the points addressed by the scientist concerned - he

noted

that patients who were " brain dead " for a few minutes reported memories

of events which happened internally while they were not supposed to be

able to form thoughts and perceptions without reliance on external stimuli.

Incidentally I was clinically dead like that for 7 minutes and I was one of

those who " returned " with some memories that did not relate to anything

from my past or from outside stimuli - but I can tell you that my " paranormal "

experience played the central role in saving my life. Mel Siff]

Let me assure you, that (IMO) " if " there is some type of consciousness

after the human organism ceases to function, it is not a function we are

currently familiar with, or could begin to understand until such a time

as we are able to exist there and send back " real world " communications.

Any volunteers?

[see above - I volunteered involuntarily! Mel Siff]

All I see is very faulty logic and conclusion here. And if you want to

see the " light " , just step in the ring with a boxer and he/she can light

you up like a million stars (all brain functions and malfunctions).

[Altered states produced by psychoactive drugs (as with Leary), meditation,

shamanic trance dance and concussion are very different from what happens

when one is clinically dead for a few minutes. I have experienced all of these

states and they are very different. Mel Siff]

Just my opinion based on my current awareness. (sensory based)

Regards,

A. Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com/index.html

January 2, 2002

Is it not possible that this study rather proves the imperfection of the

current clinical definition of " death " ? As to the content of the

experience: most of us have had the experience of having an almost

instantaneous dream upon briefly nodding off to sleep. Sometimes these

dreams are very complete, even seem quite lengthy but it is clear when

one comes to that the experience lasted for only an instant. This tells

me that the human brain is capable of extremely complex imaginings in

very very brief time intervals. These people could be having some

experience like this, a complex imagining in a very brief instant.

[EEG recordings have shown that dreams are not events that last only a fraction

of

a second, but last at last several minutes; the dreamer just perceives the

expired time interval to be very short. Clinically, death is defined to be the

state when brain function has ceased, be it brief or permanent. The former

" type " is what is called the NDE (Near Death Experience). Mel Siff]

As to the content of these experiences, these does seem to be a sort of

shared cultural content to some kinds of experiences. For example, in

the last fifty years or so, many people have reported being abducted by

aliens, with pretty similar story lines. During the Middle Ages, many

people had experiences with saints or with the Virgin , which also

were pretty similar. These reported experiences with saints or the

Virgin continue to be reported to this day, particularly in

predominantly Catholic countries and very very rarely in predominantly

Islamic countries. I think that people use a shared culturally based

ethos for these kinds of experiences.

[Correct. Many such events or hallucinations happen in different altered

states, but many of them also concern images and events not obviously drawn

from one's background. Nobody has the vaguest clue what any of the holy

figures, " angels " and Virgins looked like and far too many such hallucinators

imagine the " devil " to look like something a dark goat with horns, just as

the cartoon artists of the time depicted it. It is clear that many such

" visions "

are drawn from one's cultural or personal image memory bank. Why, for

example, should these " beings " be wearing period clothing and not appear

naked or in different clothes? What need do " they " have for clothing in the

" non-physical " world? Or do they simply play charades so as not to offend

or confuse the hallucinators? Mel Siff]

I would like to see some cross cultural studies of the near death thing.

Also, if these people really are " rising up " and looking back at

themselves, there ought to eventually be some way of measuring whatever

it is that is taking place. As a genuine agnostic, I await more evidence.

[An interesting aspect of NDE reports is that they are experienced by believers

and non-believers (that was discussed in the original article). As Norbert

Wiener,

the great scientist who developed the concept of cybernetics, said about

applying the

methods of science to living systems (my paraphrasing): " We need to develop new

models and new mathematics in order to study these systems properly " . As a

person

who has experienced NDE and several other altered states, I acknowledge that

they exist;

what they represent and how they arise I have no way of knowing at the moment.

What is

of interest is that some of these spontaneous events cause immense personal

change and even

lead to the formation of huge philosophies and religions. Virtual all religions

and many

scientific discoveries (e.g. see Kosetler " Act of Creation " ) have emerged from

these altered

states and the latter must be a very important modus operandi in human

development. And

while I am a skeptic, I am not an agnostic - rather a gnostic who seeks the

truth via

knowledge which may come from science and experience or " subjective science "

(that

I mentioned in an earlier letter). Since agnosticism implies the denial of

belief, that,

according to General Semantics, creates a specific bias within me and I prefer

to linger

somewhat closer to the Middle Way awaiting some perturbation to shift me closer

to

an optimal solution to each problem. Mel Siff]

Ikle,

Pasadena, California, USA

-----Original Message-----

Mel Siff quoted:

<Scientist says Mind continues after Brain dies

6.29.01 Reuters

LOS ANGELES A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he

is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue after

the