Re: Thumbless Bench Press

December 28, 2001

Dr Siff

> You wrote:

>

> ... after all, if the bar slips out of your hands onto your throat

> while bench pressing, that might be the last exercise that you ever do

> on planet Earth! Mel Siff

Might this be the ultimate in 'training to failure'?

Regards

Nic Oliver

UK

December 28, 2001

Precisely. With the legal grip (thumb around the bar), the thumb limits how much

you can turn your elbows in without wrist injury. They recommend using a

thumbless

grip in training if you have very strong triceps.

[Would you care to describe in kinesiological terms exactly how the above

advantages

accrue to the use of the thumbless grip and why one cannot use a " thumbed " grip

to

achieve the same result? Mel Siff]

I don't think the thumbless grip is all that dangerous. But I've heard some

horror

stories about reverse thumbless grip like guys having all of their front teeth

broken.

[There is no doubt that the serious risks associated with " thumbed " grip bench

pressing are

considerably less. When one is doing anything where a single error or accident

can result

in serious injury or death, one takes the largest number of precautions. So, at

the very least,

if you insist on using a thumbless grip for the bench press, then do the

exercise in a power

rack with safety pins located so that the bar will never fall on you. Mel

Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

------------

From: Forney

I over heard a few powerlifters in my club suggesting to a newby to use the

thumbless bench press grip (where the thumb is not wrapped around the bar).

They were suggesting that the thumbless grip caused the elbows to come in

closer to the torso. I personally think that the thumbless grip is

dangerous, and I can't see how by moving the thumb over the bar that it

would bring in your elbows. Has anyone else heard this claim, and is there

any truth to it?

[With or without thumbless grip, you can locate your elbows where you wish

them to be - and you are correct, they tend to be less safe - after all, if

the bar

slips out of your hands onto your throat while bench pressing, that might be

the

last exercise that you ever do on planet Earth! Mel Siff]

Thanks,

Bob Forney,

San Bruno Ca

youronlinefitness.com

December 28, 2001

[Would you care to describe in kinesiological terms exactly how the above

advantages

accrue to the use of the thumbless grip and why one cannot use a " thumbed " grip

to

achieve the same result? Mel Siff]

In kinesiological terms? No not really. But I can explain it with a stick and my

hand.

I'm actually pretty surprized you don't see this as obvious. There is an optimal

groove

in your palm for the bar. Any closer to your forearm, and you don't get a good

grip of

the bar and risk having it slip off (not possible with a thumb grip). Any

further from

the forearm, and it is very uncomfortable for the wrist at best (at worst you

injure it

and/or the bar slips over your fingers onto your chest). With a thumb grip, the

inside

position of the bar is limited by your thumb so in effect, all you can do is

rotate the bar

position around your thumb joint and you have next to no room to play with

already

(or you will have the bar over the pinky joint which will not be fun). With a

thumbless

grip, you can position the bar a little further down, almost or directly over

the joint.

The point is, you CAN acheive the same elbow tuck with a thumb grip but you will

have

to twist your wrist away from it's natural position. With a thumbless grip, you

can just

change the position of the bar on the palm.

[it is very simple to achieve this with a " thumbed " grip - nobody has really

explained the

biomechanics to you or shown you how to do this. Ask any competitive

powerlifter who uses

the normal " thumbed " grip to show you this amazing feat is possible or attend

one of the strength

camps run by Dave Tate (Westside) or myself (Supertraining) for some tips. I

have met many such

powerlifters who bench press over 400lbs like that and none of them seems to

experience any

serious difficulties with arranging their wrists in a highly efficient,

comfortable position. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

December 29, 2001

I know this is slightly off-topic, but didn't Taranenko perform his

legendary 266kg jerk " thumbless " ?

[i have been studying the photos that I took while watching Taranenko

achieve that great lift in Canberra, Australia, but cannot tell if this

is true or not. Someone else may have access to a clearer photo taken from

a better angle to answer this question. Anyway, at least in the jerk, if you

lose control of the bar with a thumbless grip, you can simply drop the bar

away from the body, unlike the bench press. Mel Siff]

Burkhardt

Irvine CA

December 29, 2001

As I said, yes, that " amazing feat " is possible, but it is not comfortable. I

don't need to

have the biomechanics of it explained to me because I have two hands and have

done the

bench press more than a few times. I have done mid 400s with a thumb grip. That

again,

is not the point. By the way, the original comment I made about using a

thumbless grip in

training if you have strong triceps and vice versa comes directly from Louie

.

So much for references to competetive powerlifters and Westside seminars. I (as

all powerlifters do)

wear wrist wraps for the bench to be able to have proper leverage while not

straining the

wrists. How much do you bench yourself, Dr Siff?

[some of us prefer to know the scientific AND the practical reasons why we are

doing anything

in sport. Anyway, I have always chosen exercises to enhance wrist strength and

mobility in all directions

because that really has helped me in most other sports that I played. Since you

again mention the special

value of the thumbless grip for those with strong triceps, you clearly have

wandered once more into territory

which demands some scientific validation. Can you offer some sort of logical

anatomical reason why this

should be so? No mathematics, no daunting biomechanics, just some reasonably

acceptable explanation?

I always use a thumbed grip and no supports for the wrist in the bench press,

front squats or either of the

Olympic lifts. Anyway, my primary lifting sport is weightlifting and, like most

weightlifters, have never

spent much time bench pressing. So, the most that I ever benched was 365lbs in

the 90kg division in my

mid-40s without steroids, supplements, bench shirt or wrist wraps and my

training consisted of no more

than 30 reps a week of benching, though I have always done a fair amount of

overhead pressing and jerking

(best standing press was about 270lbs). Now, as a cardiac bypass survivor

nearly 15 years older, my very

occasional bench is closer to 300lb than 400lbs! Such is life! Anyway, I do

hope what I bench or jerk

relative to world standards does not reflect adversely on my scientific

accuracy!! How much do you

standing press and what is your bodymass, Dmitry? Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

---------

From: Dmitry Voronov

[Would you care to describe in kinesiological terms exactly how the above

advantages

accrue to the use of the thumbless grip and why one cannot use a " thumbed "

grip to

achieve the same result? Mel Siff]

In kinesiological terms? No not really. But I can explain it with a stick and

my hand.

I'm actually pretty surprized you don't see this as obvious. There is an

optimal groove

in your palm for the bar. Any closer to your forearm, and you don't get a good

grip of

the bar and risk having it slip off (not possible with a thumb grip). Any

further from

the forearm, and it is very uncomfortable for the wrist at best (at worst you

injure it

and/or the bar slips over your fingers onto your chest). With a thumb grip,

the inside

position of the bar is limited by your thumb so in effect, all you can do is

rotate the bar

position around your thumb joint and you have next to no room to play with

already

(or you will have the bar over the pinky joint which will not be fun). With a

thumbless

grip, you can position the bar a little further down, almost or directly over

the joint.

The point is, you CAN acheive the same elbow tuck with a thumb grip but you

will have

to twist your wrist away from it's natural position. With a thumbless grip,

you can just

change the position of the bar on the palm.

[it is very simple to achieve this with a " thumbed " grip - nobody has really

explained the

biomechanics to you or shown you how to do this. Ask any competitive

powerlifter who uses

the normal " thumbed " grip to show you this amazing feat is possible or attend

one of the strength

camps run by Dave Tate (Westside) or myself (Supertraining) for some tips. I

have met many such

powerlifters who bench press over 400lbs like that and none of them seems to

experience any

serious difficulties with arranging their wrists in a highly efficient,

comfortable position. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

December 29, 2001

I offered you a practical explanation in my previous message sir, but you

disregarded it. I can describe it

more accurately with force vector projection and torque but you said no math. I

thought what I said was

as clear as it gets. If you don't agree, well, you just don't agree, let's skip

it. The root of the problem is

most likely this medium. If I was there in person with a bar in my hands to show

you what I mean, you

would probably laugh that I was talking about something so simple. Bring this up

next time you see

Louie, he'll explain it better.

[i only said that mathematics was not really necessary because I did not wish to

take you into territory that was

possibly foreign to you. You are more than welcome to use any math that you

wish, since I completed a

Masters in Applied Mathematics and a PhD in biomechanics, so I might be able to

follow some of your analysis.

Please go ahead now and use the relevant mathematics and biomechanics to support

your practical views to show

why it is impossible to achieve the same bench pressing efficiency, results and

comfort with a thumbed grip. Mel Siff]

I didn't mean that question to be a personal knock. Your strength has nothing to

do with the credibility

of your information. There are some things in powerlifting that REALLY start

making sense when you

are actually pushing yourself to the max. I still think it's very obvious but I

guess you have to try

handling weights up to par with your ability. I mean, I can bench 365 no matter

how I grip the bar or

lie on the bench. To get over 400, I have to setup a certain way, hold the bar a

certain way, bring it down

a certain way etc etc. From a previous discussion, I remember you were just as

shocked when I said that

you need to shrug your shoulders back for the bench. After you've tried benching

400+ with a wide grip

(not necessarily competition width) and trying to tuck your elbows, you'll know

what I mean. Without

wrist wraps or thumbless grip, it becomes very discomforting. Since you did a

lot of overhead pressing,

perhaps you even benched with your elbows out. 365 @ 181 isn't bad but for

someone with your education

and training age, it should be far greater.

[i knew that this was precisely the response that you would provide, else why

would you ask what I lifted?

Incidentally, I would suggest that you use a powerlifting formula to adjust for

your much greater bodymass

and much younger age and see if a bench press of just over 1.5 times bodyweight

is such a superior achievement

for someone who is a powerlifting specialist and I a simple cardiac survivor who

hardly ever bench presses

seriously. After all, my bench press was not far off twice bodyweight. Maybe

my bench would have been heavier, but

the magnitude of my bench press really did not have a major impact on my snatch

or jerk and I hardly gave it

much serious attention. If I am still around in over 20 years time, I look very

forward to seeing what your

lifts will be. Anyway, as they say, comparisons are odious and all too often

prove insecurities, not strengths.

Use one of the lifting adjustment formulae and you will notice just how odious.

By the way, I am slightly familiar

with the feeling of 180-200kg in a bench press, even at my much lighter

bodyweight, since I used to do short range

movements or lockouts with that sort of weight as a form of occasional " shock

loading " . For you to make any valid

comparisons about the effects of a certain bench load on your much heavier body,

you should be doing at least 500lbs

at your tender age, after 5 years of training Mel Siff]

As for me, I was introduced to weights about 5 years ago, I started powerlifting

about a year ago, my bench is

405 no shirt paused, 445 shirt paused. I'm 270 and I've never maxed out on

overhead press. I don't train my

front delts a lot at all (not at all recently). I did behind the neck press for

a few weeks and did 225 for 10-12

easy (didn't want to go heavier - all those rotator horror stories). I've done

overhead lockouts from my head

to 385.

[in other words, it seems as if you have never done a classical overhead press

even with bodyweight, which is

roughly a warm-up weight for the average weightlifter MCS]

I've mostly been focussing on my triceps. OOH, speaking of which, this is the

perfect excercize to show

what I mean - extentions. I've done 225 to the throat for a few and with a thumb

grip and without wrist wraps,

that is very uncomfortable to say the least. With a thumbless grip and wrist

wraps as I get to the max,

everything above the elbow feels like one piece.

[Ah well, some of us simply must have genetically stronger and more flexible

wrists MCS]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

------------------

From: Dmitry Voronov

As I said, yes, that " amazing feat " is possible, but it is not comfortable. I

don't need to

have the biomechanics of it explained to me because I have two hands and have

done the

bench press more than a few times. I have done mid 400s with a thumb grip.

That again,

is not the point. By the way, the original comment I made about using a

thumbless grip in

training if you have strong triceps and vice versa comes directly from Louie

.

So much for references to competetive powerlifters and Westside seminars. I

(as all powerlifters do)

wear wrist wraps for the bench to be able to have proper leverage while not

straining the

wrists. How much do you bench yourself, Dr Siff?

[some of us prefer to know the scientific AND the practical reasons why we are

doing anything

in sport. Anyway, I have always chosen exercises to enhance wrist strength

and mobility in all directions

because that really has helped me in most other sports that I played. Since

you again mention the special

value of the thumbless grip for those with strong triceps, you clearly have

wandered once more into territory

which demands some scientific validation. Can you offer some sort of logical

anatomical reason why this

should be so? No mathematics, no daunting biomechanics, just some reasonably

acceptable explanation?

I always use a thumbed grip and no supports for the wrist in the bench press,

front squats or either of the

Olympic lifts. Anyway, my primary lifting sport is weightlifting and, like

most weightlifters, have never

spent much time bench pressing. So, the most that I ever benched was 365lbs

in the 90kg division in my

mid-40s without steroids, supplements, bench shirt or wrist wraps and my

training consisted of no more

than 30 reps a week of benching, though I have always done a fair amount of

overhead pressing and jerking

(best standing press was about 270lbs). Now, as a cardiac bypass survivor

nearly 15 years older, my very

occasional bench is closer to 300lb than 400lbs! Such is life! Anyway, I do

hope what I bench or jerk

relative to world standards does not reflect adversely on my scientific

accuracy!! How much do you

standing press and what is your bodymass, Dmitry? Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

---------

From: Dmitry Voronov

[Would you care to describe in kinesiological terms exactly how the above

advantages

accrue to the use of the thumbless grip and why one cannot use a " thumbed "

grip to

achieve the same result? Mel Siff]

In kinesiological terms? No not really. But I can explain it with a stick

and my hand.

I'm actually pretty surprized you don't see this as obvious. There is an

optimal groove

in your palm for the bar. Any closer to your forearm, and you don't get a

good grip of

the bar and risk having it slip off (not possible with a thumb grip). Any

further from

the forearm, and it is very uncomfortable for the wrist at best (at worst

you injure it

and/or the bar slips over your fingers onto your chest). With a thumb grip,

the inside

position of the bar is limited by your thumb so in effect, all you can do is

rotate the bar

position around your thumb joint and you have next to no room to play with

already

(or you will have the bar over the pinky joint which will not be fun). With

a thumbless

grip, you can position the bar a little further down, almost or directly

over the joint.

The point is, you CAN acheive the same elbow tuck with a thumb grip but you

will have

to twist your wrist away from it's natural position. With a thumbless grip,

you can just

change the position of the bar on the palm.

[it is very simple to achieve this with a " thumbed " grip - nobody has really

explained the

biomechanics to you or shown you how to do this. Ask any competitive

powerlifter who uses

the normal " thumbed " grip to show you this amazing feat is possible or

attend one of the strength

camps run by Dave Tate (Westside) or myself (Supertraining) for some tips.

I have met many such

powerlifters who bench press over 400lbs like that and none of them seems to

experience any

serious difficulties with arranging their wrists in a highly efficient,

comfortable position. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

December 29, 2001

Dmitry,

I have yet to see any kinesiological evidence for your claims, you simply

keep saying it is better. I know a few guys in my gym who bench over 450lbs

with the thumb grip and some who bench only 315 with the thumbless grip. I

think this is getting off topic, it doesn't matter how much weight you are

using, simply give some support for why the thumbless grip is superior to

the thumb over the bar grip. I have yet to see any kinesiological or

biomechanical evidence to support a potentially dangerous benching style. If

you don't have the evidence, then admit it so we can move on. I am holding a

bar in my hand as we speak, and I cannot see any difference in how I can

hold the bar with a thumbless or thumbed grip. The only difference I see is

that I have a better grip on the bar with a thumb locked grip.

Off Topic: By the way, does anyone know what college degrees or

qualifications Louie and Dave Tate hold? This is not a knock at

either of them, nor am I trying to discredit them in the least. I know Dave has

some

advanced degree, but I haven't seen anything about Louie . I have been

wondering for a while simply for the sake of personal interest and nothing else.

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

-------------

From: " Dmitry Voronov " <dvoronov@...>

>I offered you a practical explanation in my previous message sir, but you

>disregarded it. I can describe it

>more accurately with force vector projection and torque but you said no

>math. I thought what I said was

>as clear as it gets. If you don't agree, well, you just don't agree, let's

>skip it. The root of the problem is

>most likely this medium. If I was there in person with a bar in my hands to

>show you what I mean, you

>would probably laugh that I was talking about something so simple. Bring

>this up next time you see

>Louie, he'll explain it better.

>

>[i only said that mathematics was not really necessary because I did not

>wish to take you into territory that was

>possibly foreign to you. You are more than welcome to use any math that

>you wish, since I completed a

>Masters in Applied Mathematics and a PhD in biomechanics, so I might be

>able to follow some of your analysis.

>Please go ahead now and use the relevant mathematics and biomechanics to

>support your practical views to show

>why it is impossible to achieve the same bench pressing efficiency, results

>and comfort with a thumbed grip. Mel Siff]

>

>I didn't mean that question to be a personal knock. Your strength has

>nothing to do with the credibility

>of your information. There are some things in powerlifting that REALLY

>start making sense when you

>are actually pushing yourself to the max. I still think it's very obvious

>but I guess you have to try

>handling weights up to par with your ability. I mean, I can bench 365 no

>matter how I grip the bar or

>lie on the bench. To get over 400, I have to setup a certain way, hold the

>bar a certain way, bring it down

>a certain way etc etc. From a previous discussion, I remember you were just

>as shocked when I said that

>you need to shrug your shoulders back for the bench. After you've tried

>benching 400+ with a wide grip

>(not necessarily competition width) and trying to tuck your elbows, you'll

>know what I mean. Without

>wrist wraps or thumbless grip, it becomes very discomforting. Since you did

>a lot of overhead pressing,

>perhaps you even benched with your elbows out. 365 @ 181 isn't bad but for

>someone with your education

>and training age, it should be far greater.

>

>[i knew that this was precisely the response that you would provide, else

>why would you ask what I lifted?

>Incidentally, I would suggest that you use a powerlifting formula to adjust

>for your much greater bodymass

>and much younger age and see if a bench press of just over 1.5 times

>bodyweight is such a superior achievement

>for someone who is a powerlifting specialist and I a simple cardiac

>survivor who hardly ever bench presses

>seriously. After all, my bench press was not far off twice bodyweight.

>Maybe my bench would have been heavier, but

>the magnitude of my bench press really did not have a major impact on my

>snatch or jerk and I hardly gave it

>much serious attention. If I am still around in over 20 years time, I look

>very forward to seeing what your

>lifts will be. Anyway, as they say, comparisons are odious and all too

>often prove insecurities, not strengths.

>Use one of the lifting adjustment formulae and you will notice just how

>odious. By the way, I am slightly familiar

>with the feeling of 180-200kg in a bench press, even at my much lighter

>bodyweight, since I used to do short range

>movements or lockouts with that sort of weight as a form of occasional

> " shock loading " . For you to make any valid

>comparisons about the effects of a certain bench load on your much heavier

>body, you should be doing at least 500lbs

>at your tender age, after 5 years of training Mel Siff]

>

>As for me, I was introduced to weights about 5 years ago, I started

>powerlifting about a year ago, my bench is

>405 no shirt paused, 445 shirt paused. I'm 270 and I've never maxed out on

>overhead press. I don't train my

>front delts a lot at all (not at all recently). I did behind the neck press

>for a few weeks and did 225 for 10-12

>easy (didn't want to go heavier - all those rotator horror stories). I've

>done overhead lockouts from my head

>to 385.

>

>[in other words, it seems as if you have never done a classical overhead

>press even with bodyweight, which is

>roughly a warm-up weight for the average weightlifter MCS]

>

>I've mostly been focussing on my triceps. OOH, speaking of which, this is

>the perfect excercize to show

>what I mean - extentions. I've done 225 to the throat for a few and with a

>thumb grip and without wrist wraps,

> that is very uncomfortable to say the least. With a thumbless grip and

>wrist wraps as I get to the max,

>everything above the elbow feels like one piece.

>

>[Ah well, some of us simply must have genetically stronger and more

>flexible wrists MCS]

>

>Dmitry Voronov

>Ontario, Canada

>

>------------------

>

>From: Dmitry Voronov

>

> As I said, yes, that " amazing feat " is possible, but it is not

>comfortable. I don't need to

> have the biomechanics of it explained to me because I have two hands and

>have done the

> bench press more than a few times. I have done mid 400s with a thumb

>grip. That again,

> is not the point. By the way, the original comment I made about using a

>thumbless grip in

> training if you have strong triceps and vice versa comes directly from

>Louie .

> So much for references to competetive powerlifters and Westside

>seminars. I (as all powerlifters do)

> wear wrist wraps for the bench to be able to have proper leverage while

>not straining the

> wrists. How much do you bench yourself, Dr Siff?

>

> [some of us prefer to know the scientific AND the practical reasons why

>we are doing anything

> in sport. Anyway, I have always chosen exercises to enhance wrist

>strength and mobility in all directions

> because that really has helped me in most other sports that I played.

>Since you again mention the special

> value of the thumbless grip for those with strong triceps, you clearly

>have wandered once more into territory

> which demands some scientific validation. Can you offer some sort of

>logical anatomical reason why this

> should be so? No mathematics, no daunting biomechanics, just some

>reasonably acceptable explanation?

>

> I always use a thumbed grip and no supports for the wrist in the bench

>press, front squats or either of the

> Olympic lifts. Anyway, my primary lifting sport is weightlifting and,

>like most weightlifters, have never

> spent much time bench pressing. So, the most that I ever benched was

>365lbs in the 90kg division in my

> mid-40s without steroids, supplements, bench shirt or wrist wraps and my

>training consisted of no more

> than 30 reps a week of benching, though I have always done a fair amount

>of overhead pressing and jerking

> (best standing press was about 270lbs). Now, as a cardiac bypass

>survivor nearly 15 years older, my very

> occasional bench is closer to 300lb than 400lbs! Such is life! Anyway,

>I do hope what I bench or jerk

> relative to world standards does not reflect adversely on my scientific

>accuracy!! How much do you

> standing press and what is your bodymass, Dmitry? Mel Siff]

>

> Dmitry Voronov

> Ontario, Canada

>

> ---------

>

> From: Dmitry Voronov

>

> [Would you care to describe in kinesiological terms exactly how the

>above advantages

> accrue to the use of the thumbless grip and why one cannot use a

> " thumbed " grip to

> achieve the same result? Mel Siff]

>

> In kinesiological terms? No not really. But I can explain it with a

>stick and my hand.

> I'm actually pretty surprized you don't see this as obvious. There is

>an optimal groove

> in your palm for the bar. Any closer to your forearm, and you don't

>get a good grip of

> the bar and risk having it slip off (not possible with a thumb grip).

>Any further from

> the forearm, and it is very uncomfortable for the wrist at best (at

>worst you injure it

> and/or the bar slips over your fingers onto your chest). With a thumb

>grip, the inside

> position of the bar is limited by your thumb so in effect, all you can

>do is rotate the bar

> position around your thumb joint and you have next to no room to play

>with already

> (or you will have the bar over the pinky joint which will not be fun).

>With a thumbless

> grip, you can position the bar a little further down, almost or

>directly over the joint.

>

> The point is, you CAN acheive the same elbow tuck with a thumb grip

>but you will have

> to twist your wrist away from it's natural position. With a thumbless

>grip, you can just

> change the position of the bar on the palm.

>

> [it is very simple to achieve this with a " thumbed " grip - nobody has

>really explained the

> biomechanics to you or shown you how to do this. Ask any competitive

>powerlifter who uses

> the normal " thumbed " grip to show you this amazing feat is possible or

>attend one of the strength

> camps run by Dave Tate (Westside) or myself (Supertraining) for some

>tips. I have met many such

> powerlifters who bench press over 400lbs like that and none of them

>seems to experience any

> serious difficulties with arranging their wrists in a highly

>efficient, comfortable position. Mel Siff]

>

> Dmitry Voronov

December 29, 2001

[i only said that mathematics was not really necessary because I did not wish

to take you into territory that was

possibly foreign to you. You are more than welcome to use any math that you

wish, since I completed a

Masters in Applied Mathematics and a PhD in biomechanics, so I might be able

to follow some of your analysis.

Please go ahead now and use the relevant mathematics and biomechanics to

support your practical views to show

why it is impossible to achieve the same bench pressing efficiency, results

and comfort with a thumbed grip. Mel Siff]

A Masters degree isn't necessary here. The further away you are from the pivot

point, the greater the torque.

[You can keep the lever arm length just as short whether you are using a thumbed

or thumbless grip. If it

is that impossible, why are there so many top powerlifters who still use a

thumbed grip? Mel Siff]

Ideally you would want the weight to be over the wrist joint but as close as

possible will do fine. As you tuck the

elbows in, you have two choices: either rotate the bar on the palm or rotate the

wrist. Unless you're superman,

it doesn't matter how strong your wrists are - it will be uncomfortable (I'm not

a kinesiologist but I'd guess

also dangerous) to have your wrists twisted out of their neutral position. The

only alternative left is to rotate

the bar on your palm. Here again, you have two choices: you can rotate the bar

around the outside of the wrist

or the inside. If you rotate it around the outside of the wrist, the bar stays

in the same place on the outside and

gets closer to the wrist joint on the inside - the desirable effect. The other

way works vice versa. With a thumb

grip, rotating around the outside of the wrist is impossible because of the

thumb! With a thumb grip, you are

forced to rotate around the thumb and this puts the bar closer to the knuckles

on the outside of the wrist

which strains it.

[impossible? Then how are so many top powerlifters able to use the thumbed

grip? Don't create an anatomical

explanation upon your own individual structure or those of a few others whose

methods you prefer

because they agree with what suits you. This is a far too frequent approach to

training advice today. Mel Siff]

[i knew that this was precisely the response that you would provide, else why

would you ask what I lifted?

Incidentally, I would suggest that you use a powerlifting formula to adjust

for your much greater bodymass

and much younger age and see if a bench press of just over 1.5 times

bodyweight is such a superior achievement

for someone who is a powerlifting specialist and I a simple cardiac survivor

who hardly ever bench presses

seriously. After all, my bench press was not far off twice bodyweight.

Maybe my bench would have been heavier, but

the magnitude of my bench press really did not have a major impact on my

snatch or jerk and I hardly gave it

much serious attention. If I am still around in over 20 years time, I look

very forward to seeing what your

lifts will be. Anyway, as they say, comparisons are odious and all too often

prove insecurities, not strengths.

Use one of the lifting adjustment formulae and you will notice just how

odious. By the way, I am slightly familiar

with the feeling of 180-200kg in a bench press, even at my much lighter

bodyweight, since I used to do short range

movements or lockouts with that sort of weight as a form of occasional " shock

loading " . For you to make any valid

comparisons about the effects of a certain bench load on your much heavier

body, you should be doing at least 500lbs

at your tender age, after 5 years of training Mel Siff]

First off, the formula the IPF uses, the Wilks formula, doesn't account for age.

But if age is in question, I'm a Junior

so I would be favoured by the formula as well (probably more so). Second, this

is not the reason I asked. I'm not

comparing you to me. I'm comparing you as a powerlifting authority to those who

I currently hold as my main

powerlifting authorities (namely Louie ). Dave Tate once wrote that a

coach has to have actually been

there. Don't get me wrong, I hold you in very high respects as a training

authority, just not in powerlifting. I

like your writing because some of it is very interesting and some of it is very

useful to me but when it comes

to primary sources for powerlifting specific training, I will listen to guys

like and Hadfield. Not because

one has info and experience coming out of his..um, ears and the other is PhD but

because of their results. But you

know, the interesting thing is I would never ask a guy like Kazmaier. I remember

an article in Tmag recently when

they sent one of their guys to the SWIS and he said that having listened to

Kazmaier and Yates, he learned only one

thing. Neither of them has any idea how they really got to where they are. They

just had " it " . The first time

Kazmaier tried deadlifting he pulled over 500 lbs. First time he tried overhead

press he did bodyweight. How

much can he teach an average 160 lb guy?

[You don't have to compare Louie and me - we know and accept one another's

respective strengths and weaknesses

and we have a great working relationship. If you don't know that, ask Dave Tate

who is a member of this list! Incidentally,

what a person is able to teach may have absolutely nothing to do with his

bodymass or his achievements. If that were the case,

one would probably have to dismiss a huge number of professional coaches in

almost every sport. There are some

excellent coaches who have not been world champions and there have been world

champions who have been miserable coaches.

Beware of any such prejudices from making you accept help from someone whom you

think knows nothing because he

is " just " a little distance running runt or computer " nerd " . Even a child may

have some great words of wisdom to

teach you. Mel Siff]

Oh and since you are comparing, let's be fair. :-) I've only been powerlifting

for less than 1 year. Last winter, my

lifts were 315(90 deg squat)-315-only God knows. They are currently 650-445-600.

[You mean that during those 5 years of training that you mentioned you never

once did the bench press? If so, you

must be entirely unique in the gym world, since every male who enters the gym

has a male breast fixation. Mel Siff]

[in other words, it seems as if you have never done a classical overhead press

even with bodyweight, which is

roughly a warm-up weight for the average weightlifter MCS]

Strange. My girlfriend lifts weights and I've never seen her do that. She must

be holding out!!! :-)

Oh and I hope you're not referring to that ugly thing they used to do in Olympic

lifting. That's a push press.

[You clearly have not been studying the articles that I have written on the

differences between the Olympic press,

the military press, the push press and the push jerk. If I recall correctly,

you are the person who considered that

eyev's press was a good example of legal pressing and that Serge Reding bent

his knees, bounced the bar on

his chest and shifted his feet during the lift. Mel Siff]

[Ah well, some of us simply must have genetically stronger and more flexible

wrists MCS]

I guess all those years of wrist action do wonders eh? :-)) Kidding!!!

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

December 30, 2001

Mel Siff:

<You can keep the lever arm length just as short whether you are using a thumbed

or thumbless grip. If it

is that impossible, why are there so many top powerlifters who still use a

thumbed grip?>

In theory, you can if you keep your wrists vertical then bar positioning on the

wrist doesn't matter.

I don't know of anyone who can do that with maximal weight. With wrist wraps,

it is much easier. That's

why all powerlifters wear them. And all powerlifters use the thumb grip because

THEY HAVE TO!

[i repeat my above question - why do many top benchers manage to do thumbed

lifts so easily, despite

your contention that this is impossible? Mel Siff]

Mel Siff:

<You don't have to compare Louie and me - we know and accept one another's

respective strengths and

weaknesses and we have a great working relationship. If you don't know that,

ask Dave Tate who is a

member of this list! Incidentally, what a person is able to teach may have

absolutely nothing to do with

his bodymass or his achievements. If that were the case, one would probably

have to dismiss a huge

number of professional coaches in almost every sport. There are some excellent

coaches who have not

been world champions and there have been world champions who have been

miserable coaches. Beware

of any such prejudices from making you accept help from someone whom you think

knows nothing

because he is " just " a little distance running runt or computer " nerd " . Even a

child may have some

great words of wisdom to teach you. >

Dr Siff, why do you insist misreading what I write? First, I'm not comparing you

and Louie in terms of

strength and weakness but as powerlifting authority. The reason for this is the

information about grip for

bench in training comes from HIM which I've said several times already. When I

first heard him say it I

thought it was completely obvious. I thought (and to a degree, still think) I

had a hard time explaining it

because I can't just show it. But Louie didn't show it and it was still obvious.

And second, I never disregard

anyone's opinion. I listen to everyone and decide for myself. My only point

there was that I would much

prefer to hear bench press advice from a 700 lb bencher than a 400 lb bencher.

[That is what is called prejudice, however well intentioned that may be - and I

think that may generally be

true - the elite performer often has superior practical advice and I happily

acknowledge that, just as I

recognise that my knowledge of physics is appallingly inferior to that of Dr

Hawking, even though I

did postgraduate physics. On the other hand, I never forget the fact that

some of the world's truly great golf

pros have many of their problems solved, not by other golfing pros, but by

caddies. I also remember that

many top NFL coaches have never been in the Hall of Fame as players. And I

cannot recall Charlie Francis

ever having broken 9.9 secs for the 100m sprint or even having run in the

Olympic finals. Mel Siff]

Mel Siff:

<You mean that during those 5 years of training that you mentioned you never

once did the bench press?

If so, you must be entirely unique in the gym world, since every male who enters

the gym has a male

breast fixation. >

Oh no, I did. That's why my bench was 315 and my squat to 90 deg was 315. I'm

built for both but I did mostly

bench because that's what everyone did. I trained for those 5 years listening to

coaches who have masters

degrees in kines. and another guy who played for the Argos. It took me 5 years

(granted I started when I was

in gr. 10 and was afraid of 100 lbs) to get up to 315 (barely) and they wouldn't

let me squat fully. Having

been introduced to Westside, it only took me one year to get to where I am.

[You clearly have not been studying the articles that I have written on the

differences between the Olympic

press, the military press, the push press and the push jerk. If I recall

correctly, you are the person who

considered that eyev's press was a good example of legal pressing and that

Serge Reding bent his knees,

bounced the bar on his chest and shifted his feet during the lift. Mel Siff]

I know the " technical " difference. But the only true test of strength is the

regular military press. Nothing is

supposed to move other than your arms. Actually I said that I couldn't believe

that eev's lift got passed.

He got the bar to almost his hairline, dropped it back down and then up again.

If that's not a double bounce

I don't know what is.

[That was only after I pointed out how illicit his Press really was. You had

one of your similar disagreements

with my analysis over that issue as well. It seems that many of my analyses

take time to sink in Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

December 30, 2001

Hi ,

I'm sorry but I have. It doesn't matter how much those guys bench when it comes

to grip. It's a

question of comfort. Take the bar with a medium grip (pinky on the rings). Take

a thumb grip

and try to rotate your elbows inwards as you lower the bar low (down to your

upper abdominals).

At this point, either your wrists are twisted away from their natural position

or the bar is close

or on the pinky knuckle. With a wrist bending load on the bar, this will not be

a fun position.

Now, keep the same grip width, take a thumbless grip and put the bar almost on

the thumb joint.

Do the same thing as above. The difference is not very significant but it is

definitely there.

Someone with strong triceps who wants to tuck their elbows in a lot will feel

much more natural

doing it with a thumbless grip.

Oh and lets get one thing straight about my views on the grip. I don't like the

thumbless grip as

I think it's dangerous. I only got into this thread to pass on advice from Louie

for people who want

to hit their triceps harder. I train with a thumb grip because that's the only

legal grip in competition

and it's safer. I normally wouldn't even argue with someone like Dr Siff because

I have no contest

in education levels but this one is so painfully obvious that I just had to. But

whatever, if you don't

see it then you just don't want to see it and that's fine with me. I don't care

nearly as much as

I made it seem.

[Please explain to me how it is " painfully obvious " that removal of the thumb

from bench pressing

increases recruitment of the tricep muscles and why it the thumbless grip is so

much more mechanically

efficient than the thumbed grip. Those were the primary issues that you raised

and nobody was concerned about

the issue of comfort. You are evading the issue now by focusing more

dominantly on comfort - we

all know that comfort depends on very individual grips, postures and ways of

moving

the bar, but you have consistently avoided offering a valid biomechanical

explanation for your point

of view of the kinesiology involved. Maybe you would care to bet a sizeable

sum on the issue and come to a

scientific lab to measure the EMG or tricep muscle tension - you will without a

doubt be a little bit poorer

and wiser. But that will not even be necessary since Dr Tom McLaughlin has

already conducted those types of

studies of top powerlifters in his book, " Bench Press More Now " , where he shows

that triceps involvement

becomes greater with a narrower grip, though this reduces pectoralis

recruitment. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

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