Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

December 28, 2001

I think organized sports-business has a lot to do with it. As a kid we

wandered all over the neighborhood. We owned it. Now everybody is scared

of " the media created unreality " (murder, drugs, and worse). Sports have

become all institutionalized and bureauocratic. Kids living on the same

block don't even know each other. One problem is in little league baseball, the

other in

soccer. Unfortunately, in my experience, the coaching is usually awful and

kids get less and less time to play. Everything in their life becomes work.

I took my son to an awesome sports facility where we could see about 5 young

teams practising. I asked my son " what are these guys practising? " . He

said " soccer " . I said " no, they are all practising standing in line and

being quite when spoken to.... .that is why you learn a lot more from street

ball. " When we finished playing 1-on-1, they were all still practising

standing in line quietly for the most part.

[Your observation is most interesting and certainly can explain why a lot of

children do not like sports - they have been turned into work and miniature

adult sausage machines. I was educated in a private Catholic school for all

of my school years and we allowed lots of time to simply play soccer, rugby and

other sports with minimal intervention (except for discipline and rules) by

the teachers. My parents deliberately chose a Catholic school because all boys

were accepted, irrespective of race, colour or creed, whereas the public schools

in apartheid S Africa were segregated and my folks wanted me to grow up mixing

with kids from all walks of life - and playing together was a grand way of

learning

about others. Thank heavens for my parents! Sadly, when I attended a school

reunion

shortly before I moved to the USA, I noticed that rugby was banned and soccer

was

promoted because the school authorities felt that tough contact sport might

cause

racial conflict. They seemed totally unaware of the fact that many black, white

and

Asiatic boxers and martial artists become very good friends. Such is the wisdom

of

those who would be our teachers and rulers! They know best for the rest of us!

Mel Siff]

Diego Crespo

Quito, Ecuador

----- Original Message -----

<Among the reasons given for the increase [in obesity]: Children are

spending much more time watching television, using computers and

playing video games,...>

Just an anecdote to elaborate on this fact. As a kid, I remember

spending most of my days outside, usually playing hockey (until my

feet were so frozen that when done I would look inside my skates to

make sure no toes had stayed there!), basketball or just about any

game imaginable. I'd also be begging my mother to go outside after

supper on school days or to stay out later once I was there (just a

few more minutes!!!).

The last few years that I lived in Québec, I lived in a neighborhood

full of kids and I noticed something: I'd leave say to go do

groceries and I'd come across kids playing hockey in the street.

Cool! But just an hour later sometimes, I'd come back and no hockey

game in sight! What gives! And I've seen that over and over. Kids

going outside to play and going back in within a few minutes

sometimes, usually because they all start talking about that new Sega

game or that new site they found on the Internet. Nothing wrong with

that of course, but I think nowadays, the balance between exercise

and play outside, and more sedentary activities is way off. What are

parents to do about this new phenomena? I don't have kids of my own

now, but the thought of having to deal with sedentary children either

in class or at home does concern me...

Lépine

Vancouver BC

December 28, 2001

I have 2 practical solutions:

1) Return to old fashion diet, not 90% carbs.

2) Encourage play, pick up games,etc...put a basket up,encourage

neighborhood kids to play on it, drive to park 2x week with kids for

informal pick up games,etc...

Diego Crespo

Quito,Ecuador

Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

>

> As one has pointed out it is a worrisome topic.

> It is not only affecting children but all aged individuals. I always

> read the articles in the paper and journals about how many children

> are obese and how many adult are obese. These papers usually say its

> to do with the increasing technology, T.V, computers, fast-foods you

> name it, etc, etc.

>

> However, rarely with these articles comes any suggestions of how to

> combat the obesity epidemic. Surely if one is to help children and

> parents and all aged individuals we should be speaking of the methods

> of how decrease and stop the epidemic.

>

> We can't just pass the blame on the T.V, computers, fast food etc -

> its the easy way out. We'll never get rid of these activities and

> they will probably increase greatly as time goes by. E.g you won't

> even have to get up of the couch to turn the light switch on and off

> etc.

>

> One idea proposed by one of my former lecturers 'We must unpack and

> fully exploit the sport-health link, therefore by thinking outside

> the box enhancing the health of those participating on in physical

> activity through sport but also those who are spectators of sport and

> consumers of sport.

> Can it be done?

>

> Thats how I see it sometimes

>

> Cheers

> Carruthers

> Wakefield

> UK

>

> Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

> mygroups

>

> Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you

> wish them to be published!

>

December 28, 2001

I am beginning to think it has to do with portion size here in the U.S. I

have never been to Europe, but my friends who have say they eat a lot less

food at each setting. France seems to eat tons of saturated fat, and the

friends I have who visited France say that the people there are more lean

then here in the States. Has anyone else on this list been to europe, or

lives in europe that can support that they are leaner in Europe?

Bob Forney,

San Mateo, Ca

YourOnlineFitness.com

-----------------

>From: " carruthersjam " <Carruthersjam@...>

>As one has pointed out it is a worrisome topic.

>It is not only affecting children but all aged individuals. I always

>read the articles in the paper and journals about how many children

>are obese and how many adult are obese. These papers usually say its

>to do with the increasing technology, T.V, computers, fast-foods you

>name it, etc, etc.

>

>However, rarely with these articles comes any suggestions of how to

>combat the obesity epidemic. Surely if one is to help children and

>parents and all aged individuals we should be speaking of the methods

>of how decrease and stop the epidemic.

>

>We can't just pass the blame on the T.V, computers, fast food etc -

>its the easy way out. We'll never get rid of these activities and

>they will probably increase greatly as time goes by. E.g you won't

>even have to get up of the couch to turn the light switch on and off

>etc.

>

>One idea proposed by one of my former lecturers 'We must unpack and

>fully exploit the sport-health link, therefore by thinking outside

>the box enhancing the health of those participating on in physical

>activity through sport but also those who are spectators of sport and

>consumers of sport.

>Can it be done?

>

>Thats how I see it sometimes

>

> Carruthers

December 28, 2001

With regard to Europe it may be slightly to do with their diet. However,

having visited France and Spain on several occasions, it seems that they have

a more of a relaxed way of leaving - there's not a lot of people who do 60

hour weeks or more.

This gives them the opportunity to participate in sport and recreational

activities.

If employers gave people the opportunity to take part in sport and exercise

it could have several positive effects (Biddle, 2001):

- greater productivity

- cohesion within the work group + a greater enjoyment of working

- fewer people retiring earlier - (they haven't burnout)

- less stress = less illness = less absenteeisms ... etc

Regards,

Carruthers

Wakefield

UK

December 29, 2001

I am not sure you can blame eating too many carbs as one of the reasons

Americans are getting fatter. If you look to the Asian countries, their diet

contains as much if not more carbs then us, and they tend not be overweight.

As others have stated, there seems to be many causes to children getting

fatter in the USA.

First I would blame portion size, and try to get children to eat smaller

portions. I personally have the habit of trying to eat everything on my

plate, even if I am full. I feel ripped off if I am not stuffed to the gills

by the time I am done eating. I recall a study done where they compared how

much people ate depending on portion size, and they found that people who

were given larger portions also ate more. I searched pubmed for the study,

but came up empty handed. Does anyone else have that study?

Second, like others have pointed out, I would blame lack of exercise. The

solution would be for parents to throw out the video games, computer, and

enroll their kids into sports. I also think that both parents being out of

the home may have an effect as well. I had a stay at home mom. I wasn't

allowed to bring friends home to lounge around and play video games, so we

went out and played sports instead. I think there are many causes, and more

causes are invented every year that make the situation worse.

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

----------------

From: Ben Freeman <benfreeman@...>

>It was written:

>

><I have 2 practical solutions:

>

>1) Return to old fashion diet, not 90% carbs.

>2) Encourage play, pick up games, etc...put a basket up,encourage

>neighborhood kids to play on it, drive to park 2x week with kids for

>informal pick up games, etc... >

>

>**** I agree, but *how* do we get them to do this ? I mean what do you

>say or do when they say 'I don't want to' ?

December 30, 2001

Ben,

In my experience these things just occur..it is natural. E.g.

1) I have never told my kids " dont eat sweets " . In fact, when they were

children, based on what I had heard that children in natural cultures reject

sweets and based on nutritional studies that said that children know what to

eat that were presented to us in class lectures I took all candies and

sweets and put them on the bottom drawer of the kitchen. My kids have never

felt guilty about eating sweets.....now in halloween they just leave about

95% of the candy without eating it.

My one kid does eat to many carbs in my opinion, and started to get a

little belly, which she noticed..so i suggested that that is how the body

prepares for growth, but added.. drink half your Coke, more water, and half

your fries...you need to eat more meat and vegetables. That is it. My

child started gymnastics and started to grow, changed diet a little and is

lean again.

2) If kids have a play environment, they will play 10 hours a day. They are

experts at play. Remember when we were kids, we became experts at bike

riding, basketball, soccer, exploring, fishing, tag, running, wrestling,

learning everything ourselves and enjoying everything to the maximum. No

classes. We learned everything. The only reason we stopped playing was

because it was dark. As adults, we should IMO, provide a safe environment

and put " tape " on our mouths and stay out so we dont turn play into work

training. Although I think playing in pick up games is great.

To provide a play environment one must avoid sport as business, as school

homework

What do they do in school anyway - they spend more time there than

college students and still have hours of homework?. And we have things such

as this thrust upon them: " Vince Lombardi want us to be coaches " , the impulse to

make

your children perfect ballerinas, computer engineers, pro athletes, geniuses

- even in elementary school, etc " .

Diego Crespo

Quito, Ecuador

Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

> It was written:

>

> <I have 2 practical solutions:

>

> 1) Return to old fashion diet, not 90% carbs.

> 2) Encourage play, pick up games, etc...put a basket up,encourage

> neighborhood kids to play on it, drive to park 2x week with kids for

> informal pick up games, etc... >

>

> **** I agree, but *how* do we get them to do this ? I mean what do you

> say or do when they say 'I don't want to' ?

>

> Cheers

> Ben Freeman

December 30, 2001

Diego,

I am not sure your observation is correct. According to a roundtable

discussion on the zone diet, a dietitian, although unnamed, stated the

following:

" The 'typical' Chinese diet tends to be higher in carbohydrate and fiber,

and lower in fat than the Western diet. In the morning people often take

porridge or millet gruel for the main food. Soybean milk, salted vegetables,

eggs [boiled or fried], deep fried dough sticks or cakes are the common

choices for breakfast. For lunch and dinner, steamed rice and boiled noodles

are major foods...eggs, chicken, fish, meat and vegetables are non-staple

foods. "

The website is located at:

http://www.nismat.org/nutricor/zone.html.

In another study, you can see how much more carbs the Chinese in China eat

compared with Chinese in America:

Comparison of dietary habits, physical activity and body size among Chinese

in North America and China.

Lee MM, Wu- A, Whittemore AS, Zheng S, Gallagher R, Teh CZ, Zhou L,

Wang X, Chen K, Ling C, et al.

Dept of Health Research and Policy, Stanford Univ School of Medicine, CA.

BACKGROUND. Chinese in North America have higher rates of many chronic

diseases than do Chinese in Asia. However, there is a lack of data among

comparisons of the environmental and lifestyle factors for Chinese in China

and Chinese residing in North America. METHODS. We examined self-reported

dietary nutrient intakes, physical activity patterns and body mass index of

2488 healthy Chinese men and women residing in North America (US and Canada)

and in the People's Republic of China. RESULTS. On average, Chinese in China

consumed more calories (males 2904 kcal in China, versus 2201 kcal in North

America; females 2317 Kcal in China, versus 1795 Kcal in North America and

more carbohydrate, but less fat (males 72.2 g in China versus 84.5 g in

North America, females 56.6 g in China versus 70.8 g in North America),

protein, vitamin A, beta-carotene and vitamin C than did Chinese in North

America. Per cent calories from fat was 35% for Chinese in North America and

22% for Chinese in China. In contrast, the per cent of calories from

carbohydrates was 62-68% in China and 48% in North America. Chinese in China

reported spending more time in vigorous activity, sleeping and walking but

less hours in sitting than Chinese in North America. Chinese in China

weighted less and were leaner than North American Chinese. CONCLUSIONS.

These differences in nutrient intakes, physical activity and body size of

Chinese living on two different continents suggest possible explanations for

observed differences in chronic disease rates in the two populations.

By the way, sweets and ovens have been around for generations here in

America. And according to the study and statements above, I am not sure your

theory holds any water. Of course it also points out that Chinese get more

exercise than Americans, as well.

Bob F.

San Mateo,

Ca

>From: " Diego Crespo " <gladiadores@...>

>Reply-Supertraining

><Supertraining >

>Subject: Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

>Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:51:20 -0500

>

>Please don't hesitate to look at the carb issue with more detail. I think

>it is 90% responsible for childhood obesity and we now teach kids in school

>to eat that way (U.S.). Let me respond to Asian countries and their use of

>carbs by alluding to my culture whose meals are also always accompanied by

>rice or potatoes. If you count the carbs, you will notice that it is not

>even close to the American child's typical 'nutrition'. Sweets are not

>emphasized in other cultures to the same extent. If you think about it, a

>couple

>of generations ago, people didn't have ovens, so there were no baked goods.

> No mass

>produced cakes, pies, etc.....think of deserts in Asian restaurant.

>

>The U.S. child has fruit juice (high sugar), sugared cereal, milk (milk

>sugar),

>Coke (high sugar syrup), for lunch macaroni cheese (almost pure carb),

>chocolate

>milk (high sugar) or hamburger buns, french fries, coke, sweet desert,

>sweet

>fruit to be healthy, and at night some of the same with cookies and maybe

>6-7 Cokes or other soft drinks throughout the day.

>

>No diet on earth is even close to this in sugar. They would have to run a

>10 miles a day not to get obese.

>

>Diego Crespo

>Quito,Ecuador

>

>--------------

>

>From: Forney <bobage24@...>

>

> > I am not sure you can blame eating too many carbs as one of the reasons

> > Americans are getting fatter. If you look to the Asian countries, their

>diet

> > contains as much if not more carbs then us, and they tend not be

>overweight.

> > As others have stated, there seems to be many causes to children getting

> > fatter in the USA.

> >

> > First I would blame portion size, and try to get children to eat smaller

> > portions. I personally have the habit of trying to eat everything on my

> > plate, even if I am full. I feel ripped off if I am not stuffed to the

>gills

> > by the time I am done eating. I recall a study done where they compared

>how

> > much people ate depending on portion size, and they found that people

>who

> > were given larger portions also ate more. I searched pubmed for the

>study,

> > but came up empty handed. Does anyone else have that study?

> >

> > Second, like others have pointed out, I would blame lack of exercise.

>The

> > solution would be for parents to throw out the video games, computer,

>and

> > enroll their kids into sports. I also think that both parents being out

>of

> > the home may have an effect as well. I had a stay at home mom. I wasn't

> > allowed to bring friends home to lounge around and play video games, so

>we

> > went out and played sports instead. I think there are many causes, and

>more

> > causes are invented every year that make the situation worse.

> >

> > Bob Forney

> > San Mateo, Ca

> >

> > ----------------

> >

> > From: Ben Freeman <benfreeman@...>

> >

> > >It was written:

> > >

> > ><I have 2 practical solutions:

> > >

> > >1) Return to old fashion diet, not 90% carbs.

> > >2) Encourage play, pick up games, etc...put a basket up,encourage

> > >neighborhood kids to play on it, drive to park 2x week with kids for

> > >informal pick up games, etc... >

> > >

> > >I agree, but *how* do we get them to do this ? I mean what do you

> > >say or do when they say 'I don't want to' ?

December 31, 2001

You think that because Chinese seem to have a higher carb diet than Chinese

Americans my idea of high carb eating leading to obesity of children is

incorrect.

I have 2 problems with this:

1) Chinese Americans probably have more in common with Chinese than other

American groups as far as diet. E.g. I was raised in the US but had coffee

and toast for breakfast never had cereal or orange juice.

2) More active populations naturally have higher carbs with positive not

detrimental effects, e.g. boxers, distance runners, farmers, etc..One would

have to study a sedentary population in China with a sedentary pop in

America to improve that study.

Diego Crespo

Quito, Ecuador

Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

> >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:51:20 -0500

> >

> >Please don't hesitate to look at the carb issue with more detail. I

think

> >it is 90% responsible for childhood obesity and we now teach kids in

school

> >to eat that way (U.S.). Let me respond to Asian countries and their use

of

> >carbs by alluding to my culture whose meals are also always accompanied

by

> >rice or potatoes. If you count the carbs, you will notice that it is not

> >even close to the American child's typical 'nutrition'. Sweets are not

> >emphasized in other cultures to the same extent. If you think about it,

a

> >couple

> >of generations ago, people didn't have ovens, so there were no baked

goods.

> > No mass

> >produced cakes, pies, etc.....think of deserts in Asian restaurant.

> >

> >The U.S. child has fruit juice (high sugar), sugared cereal, milk (milk

> >sugar),

> >Coke (high sugar syrup), for lunch macaroni cheese (almost pure carb),

> >chocolate

> >milk (high sugar) or hamburger buns, french fries, coke, sweet desert,

> >sweet

> >fruit to be healthy, and at night some of the same with cookies and maybe

> >6-7 Cokes or other soft drinks throughout the day.

> >

> >No diet on earth is even close to this in sugar. They would have to run

a

> >10 miles a day not to get obese.

> >

> >Diego Crespo

> >Quito,Ecuador

> >

> >--------------

> >

> >From: Forney <bobage24@...>

> >

> > > I am not sure you can blame eating too many carbs as one of the

reasons

> > > Americans are getting fatter. If you look to the Asian countries,

their

> >diet

> > > contains as much if not more carbs then us, and they tend not be

> >overweight.

> > > As others have stated, there seems to be many causes to children

getting

> > > fatter in the USA.

> > >

> > > First I would blame portion size, and try to get children to eat

smaller

> > > portions. I personally have the habit of trying to eat everything on

my

> > > plate, even if I am full. I feel ripped off if I am not stuffed to the

> >gills

> > > by the time I am done eating. I recall a study done where they

compared

> >how

> > > much people ate depending on portion size, and they found that people

> >who

> > > were given larger portions also ate more. I searched pubmed for the

> >study,

> > > but came up empty handed. Does anyone else have that study?

> > >

> > > Second, like others have pointed out, I would blame lack of exercise.

> >The

> > > solution would be for parents to throw out the video games, computer,

> >and

> > > enroll their kids into sports. I also think that both parents being

out

> >of

> > > the home may have an effect as well. I had a stay at home mom. I

wasn't

> > > allowed to bring friends home to lounge around and play video games,

so

> >we

> > > went out and played sports instead. I think there are many causes, and

> >more

> > > causes are invented every year that make the situation worse.

> > >

> > > Bob Forney

> > > San Mateo, Ca

> > >

> > > ----------------

> > >

> > > From: Ben Freeman <benfreeman@...>

> > >

> > > >It was written:

> > > >

> > > ><I have 2 practical solutions:

> > > >

> > > >1) Return to old fashion diet, not 90% carbs.

> > > >2) Encourage play, pick up games, etc...put a basket up,encourage

> > > >neighborhood kids to play on it, drive to park 2x week with kids for

> > > >informal pick up games, etc... >

> > > >

> > > >I agree, but *how* do we get them to do this ? I mean what do you

> > > >say or do when they say 'I don't want to' ?

>

> Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

> mygroups

>

> Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you

> wish them to be published!

>

December 31, 2001

Yes I do.

1. The use of the word " probably " shows that you do not no for sure if your

answer is correct. If the Chinese Americans ate similar to chinese in China,

then why the huge differences in carb intake, fat intake, and protein

intake. It doesn't " seem " that the chinese have a higher intake of carbs, I

believe that study proves that point.

2. Do you have any studies that support your claim. The study clearly showed

that chinese in China ate more carbs then chinese in america, and also

showed that the chinese in China exercised more then the chinese in america.

Don't try to change the argument,lets not forget that you were claiming that

americans ate more carbs then chinese in china, and that has been shown to

be false. I will post more studies to support my claim if you post some

studies to support your claims. The study cleary showed that americans seem

to live a less active lifestyle then then the chinese.

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

>From: " Diego Crespo " <gladiadores@...>

>Reply-Supertraining

><Supertraining >

>Subject: Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

>Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:17:23 -0500

>

>You think that because Chinese seem to have a higher carb diet than Chinese

>Americans my idea of high carb eating leading to obesity of children is

>incorrect.

>

>I have 2 problems with this:

>1) Chinese Americans probably have more in common with Chinese than other

>American groups as far as diet. E.g. I was raised in the US but had coffee

>and toast for breakfast never had cereal or orange juice.

>

>2) More active populations naturally have higher carbs with positive not

>detrimental effects, e.g. boxers, distance runners, farmers, etc..One would

>have to study a sedentary population in China with a sedentary pop in

>America to improve that study.

>

>Diego Crespo

>Quito, Ecuador

>

> Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

> > >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:51:20 -0500

> > >

> > >Please don't hesitate to look at the carb issue with more detail. I

>think

> > >it is 90% responsible for childhood obesity and we now teach kids in

>school

> > >to eat that way (U.S.). Let me respond to Asian countries and their

>use

>of

> > >carbs by alluding to my culture whose meals are also always accompanied

>by

> > >rice or potatoes. If you count the carbs, you will notice that it is

>not

> > >even close to the American child's typical 'nutrition'. Sweets are not

> > >emphasized in other cultures to the same extent. If you think about

>it,

>a

> > >couple

> > >of generations ago, people didn't have ovens, so there were no baked

>goods.

> > > No mass

> > >produced cakes, pies, etc.....think of deserts in Asian restaurant.

> > >

> > >The U.S. child has fruit juice (high sugar), sugared cereal, milk (milk

> > >sugar),

> > >Coke (high sugar syrup), for lunch macaroni cheese (almost pure carb),

> > >chocolate

> > >milk (high sugar) or hamburger buns, french fries, coke, sweet desert,

> > >sweet

> > >fruit to be healthy, and at night some of the same with cookies and

>maybe

> > >6-7 Cokes or other soft drinks throughout the day.

> > >

> > >No diet on earth is even close to this in sugar. They would have to

>run

>a

> > >10 miles a day not to get obese.

> > >

> > >Diego Crespo

> > >Quito,Ecuador

> > >

> > >--------------

> > >

> > >From: Forney <bobage24@...>

> > >

> > > > I am not sure you can blame eating too many carbs as one of the

>reasons

> > > > Americans are getting fatter. If you look to the Asian countries,

>their

> > >diet

> > > > contains as much if not more carbs then us, and they tend not be

> > >overweight.

> > > > As others have stated, there seems to be many causes to children

>getting

> > > > fatter in the USA.

> > > >

> > > > First I would blame portion size, and try to get children to eat

>smaller

> > > > portions. I personally have the habit of trying to eat everything on

>my

> > > > plate, even if I am full. I feel ripped off if I am not stuffed to

>the

> > >gills

> > > > by the time I am done eating. I recall a study done where they

>compared

> > >how

> > > > much people ate depending on portion size, and they found that

>people

> > >who

> > > > were given larger portions also ate more. I searched pubmed for the

> > >study,

> > > > but came up empty handed. Does anyone else have that study?

> > > >

> > > > Second, like others have pointed out, I would blame lack of

>exercise.

> > >The

> > > > solution would be for parents to throw out the video games,

>computer,

> > >and

> > > > enroll their kids into sports. I also think that both parents being

>out

> > >of

> > > > the home may have an effect as well. I had a stay at home mom. I

>wasn't

> > > > allowed to bring friends home to lounge around and play video games,

>so

> > >we

> > > > went out and played sports instead. I think there are many causes,

>and

> > >more

> > > > causes are invented every year that make the situation worse.

> > > >

> > > > Bob Forney

> > > > San Mateo, Ca

> > > >

> > > > ----------------

> > > >

> > > > From: Ben Freeman <benfreeman@...>

> > > >

> > > > >It was written:

> > > > >

> > > > ><I have 2 practical solutions:

> > > > >

> > > > >1) Return to old fashion diet, not 90% carbs.

> > > > >2) Encourage play, pick up games, etc...put a basket up,encourage

> > > > >neighborhood kids to play on it, drive to park 2x week with kids

>for

> > > > >informal pick up games, etc... >

> > > > >

> > > > >I agree, but *how* do we get them to do this ? I mean what do you

> > > > >say or do when they say 'I don't want to' ?

December 31, 2001

Diego,

Since the study below wasn't enough evidence that carbs are not to blame for

overweight children, I will add some more evidence to prove your theory is

less then solid to say the least. The following studies actually show that

obese children eat less carbohydrates then their normal weight counter

parts. If this is not enough evidence that carbohydrates are not the sole

causation of children being overweight, then I guess nothing will convince

you. So lets get to the core of the issue.

In the following studies you will see that the overweight subjects actually

ate less carbs, but exercised less. So maybe lack of exercise is 90% of the

problem.

Difference in dietary intake and activity level between normal-weight and

overweight or obese adolescents.

Garaulet M, ez A, F, -Llamas F, Ortega RM, Zamora S.

Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Faculty of Biology, University of

Murcia, Spain.

BACKGROUND: To investigate the prevalence of overweight and obesity in an

adolescent group representative of a rural Mediterranean area and to

determine possible associations with energy and nutrient intakes and levels

of physical exercise. METHODS: A representative sample of adolescents was

drawn from the secondary school of Torre Pacheco (Murcia), a rural

Mediterranean area located in the southeast of Spain. The population

selected (331 adolescents aged 14-18 years), was divided into two groups:

normal-weight subjects with a body mass index less than 23 kg/m2 and

overweight or obese subjects with a body mass index of 23 kg/m2 or more.

Weight, height, abdominal and hip perimeters, triceps skinfold, and upper

arm circumference were measured. A prospective 7-consecutive-days food

record and physical activity questionnaire were completed. RESULTS:

Overweight boys and girls had an apparently lower energy intake (P = 0.001

and P = 0.042, respectively), and carbohydrate intake (P = 0.000, P = 0.032)

than their normal-weight counterparts, but they tended to underreport more

often. Overweight boys derived a greater percentage of their energy from fat

(P = 0.049) and less from carbohydrate (P = 0.016) than their normal-weight

counterparts. Among girls, the percentage of energy derived from fat

increased with body mass index (r = 0.210, P = 0.008), whereas fiber intake

decreased (r = -0.145; P = 0.041). Overweight and obesity were negatively

related to physical activity level only among boys (P = 0.033). CONCLUSION:

There is a high prevalence of overweight and obesity in the adolescent

population studied (48.2% in boys and 30.7% in girls). The study shows an

association between overweight and obesity and nutrient intake and activity

level.

Relationship between diet composition and body mass index in a group of

Spanish adolescents.

Ortega RM, Requejo AM, Andres P, -Sobaler AM, Redondo R,

-Fernandez M.

Departamento de Nutricion, Facultad de Farmacia, Universidad Complutense,

Madrid, Spain.

The dietary patterns of sixty-four adolescents (thirty-seven young men and

twenty-seven young women) between 15 and 17 years of age were examined by

analysis of food, energy and nutrient intakes, over a period of 5 d,

including a Sunday. Adolescents were identified for inclusion in two study

groups: (1) overweight and obese subjects (O) with a BMI (kg/m2) > or = 75th

percentile, and (2) subjects of normal weight (NW) with BMI < 75th

percentile. The study was designed to investigate the differences between

the energy and nutrient intakes of NW and O adolescents. No differences were

found in energy intake between NW and O adolescents. However, O subjects

derived a greater proportion of their energy from proteins (19.8% v 16.4%

for NW subjects) and fats (45.4% v. 38.7% for NW subjects), and less from

carbohydrates (34.6% v. 44.6% for NW subjects). Also, O subjects consumed

significantly larger amounts of cholesterol. In order to prevent obesity and

avoid the disorders associated with this condition, it appears necessary not

only to regulate energy intake, but also to control the composition of the

diet. Given that it is during infancy that feeding habits are developed, it

is important to ensure that correct habits are acquired. Special attention

should be given to improving the dietary habits of overweight and obese

children and adolescents.

Ann Nutr Metab 1995;39(6):371-8 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Eating behavior and energy and nutrient intake in overweight/obese and

normal-weight Spanish elderly.

Ortega RM, Redondo MR, Zamora MJ, -Sobaler AM, Andres P.

Department of Nutrition, Pharmacy Faculty, Complutense University, Madrid,

Spain.

Dietary patterns were studied in 122 Spanish elderly people divided into two

groups: overweight/obese subjects (O) (BMI > or = 25 kg/m2), and

normal-weight subjects (NW) (BMI < 25). O subjects ate less fruit and more

meat than NW subjects. No differences were found between NW and O subjects

with respect to energy intake, but O elderly obtained more of their energy

from proteins and less from carbohydrates. Further, O subjects showed a

higher cholesterol intake per MJ than NW subjects. The existence of the

dietary imbalances seen in the diet of the O elderly may damage their

health.

Int J Vitam Nutr Res 1998;68(2):125-32 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Difference in the breakfast habits of overweight/obese and normal weight

schoolchildren.

Ortega RM, Requejo AM, -Sobaler AM, Quintas ME, Andres P, Redondo MR,

Navia B, -Bonilla MD, Rivas T.

Departamento de Nutricion, Facultad de Farmacia, Universidad Complutense,

Madrid (Espana).

The aim of the present study was to analyse the differences between the

breakfast habits of obese/overweight (O) (those with body mass index [bMI]

above the 75th percentile) and normal weight schoolchildren (N) (those with

BMI equal to or below the 75th percentile). A seven consecutive days " food

record " was used to record the intake of foods at breakfast and throughout

the rest of the day. O subjects, and in particular female O subjects,

omitted breakfast more frequently and took significantly smaller quantities

of cereals than did N subjects. The energy supplied by breakfast, measured

as a percentage of energy expenditure, was significantly lower in O subjects

(17.0 +/- 8.5% in males and 14.6 +/- 6.1% in females) than in N subjects

(20.9 +/- 9.4% in males and 17.6 +/- 6.5% in females). With respect to the

energy and nutrients supplied by breakfast, O subjects took lower quantities

of carbohydrates, thiamin, niacin, pyridoxine, vitamin D and iron than did N

subjects. The energy profiles of O subjects breakfasts were more imbalanced

than those of N subjects. A significant difference was seen between the

amounts of energy supplied by carbohydrates. Without doubt, O subjects have

less satisfactory breakfast habits than N subjects. This might be a

reflection of whole diet that is less adequate, however, it is possible that

an inadequate breakfast contributes to the making of poor food choices over

the rest of the day, and, in the long term, to an increased risk of obesity.

A comparison of fat intake of normal weight, moderately obese and severely

obese subjects.

Alfieri M, Pomerleau J, Grace DM.

Department of Clinical Nutrition, London Health Science Centre, Ontario,

Canada.

BACKGROUND: Excess dietary fat has been implicated in the etiology of

obesity. METHODS: This study examined the fat intake of three weight groups,

normal (20.0 < or = BMI < or = 27.0), moderately obese (27.1 < or = BMI < or

= 39.9) and severely obese (BMI > or = 40.0). Each group contained 50

subjects. Detailed 3-day food records were used to gather the nutritional

data. Anthropometric and sociodemographic information was also collected.

RESULTS: Overall fat intake was 89 +/- 42 g/day or 37 +/- 10% of total

energy. Total fat (g/1000 kcalories) intake was found to be significantly

higher in the obese groups (p < 0.05). Subjects in the moderately and

severely obese groups consumed significantly more fat and cholesterol and

less carbohydrate than did normal weight subjects. Compared to the normal

weight subjects, obese subjects also had higher intakes of saturated,

monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fat (as a percentage of dietary energy).

There was no difference in energy or protein intake, and P/S ratio among the

three groups. BMI was strongly positively correlated with total fat,

saturated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated fat, cholesterol, and protein

intake (as g/day only), and negatively correlated with carbohydrate intake

and the CHO/FAT ratio. Energy intake was not significantly associated with

BMI. CONCLUSION: A high fat diet may promote obesity, independently of its

calorie contribution.

Here is an interesting study on the subject of children who are overweight.

Influence of diet, physical activity and parents' obesity on children's

adiposity: a four-year longitudinal study.

Maffeis C, Talamini G, Tato L.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Verona, Italy.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the relationships between diet, body composition,

physical activity, parents' obesity and adiposity in children at the age of

8 y and four years later. STUDY DESIGN: Prospective observational study of

anthropometric measures initiated in 1992, follow-up examination in 1996.

METHODS: 112 prepubertal (age: 8.6 +/- 1.0 y) children were studied. Energy

and nutrient intakes were assessed by diet history, body composition by

anthropometry and physical activity, by a questionnaire. Obesity was defined

as relative body mass index (BMI) (rel BMI) > 120%, where rel BMI = (BMI/BMI

at 50th centile for age and gender) x 100. RESULTS: Prevalence of obesity

was not statistically different at baseline (22.3%) than four years later

(19.8%): rel BMI at the age of 8 y was positively self-related with rel BMI

at the age of 12 y (r = 0.73, P < 0.001). After four years, eight (32%)

obese children became non obese and five (6%) non obese children became

obese. Multiple regression analysis (stepwise procedure) revealed that, in

the final equation, the mother's BMI and TV viewing (independent variables)

accounted for 17% of the children's rel BMI variance at the age of 8 y (R =

0.42, P < 0.001) while the parents' BMIs accounted for 13.5% of the

children's rel BMI variance at the age of 12 y (R = 0.37, P < 0.001). Other

variables such as total energy intake, nutrient intake percentage and amount

of physical activity, were all rejected. An autoregressive unbalanced

measures model regression analysis recognised the mother's and father's BMIs

as the only variables able to predict rel BMI in the children (mother's BMI

coeff. 2.53 (s.e.m. 0.26), P < 0.0001; father's BMI coeff. 2.07 (s.e.m.

0.23), P < 0.0001). A multivariate logistic regression analysis was also

performed. The children who participated in the follow-up, were divided into

two groups based on the positive or negative change in the rel BMI between

final and baseline measurements. Of all the variables considered, only rel

BMI at baseline was selected in the final equation. Other variables such as

age, gender, energy and nutrient intake, TV viewing and amount of physical

activity, as well as the parents' BMI, were all removed. CONCLUSIONS: The

parents' obesity was the main risk factor for obesity in this group of

children. Sedentary behaviour (TV viewing) was independently associated with

overweight at the age of 8 y. Physical activity and energy and nutrient

intakes did not significantly affect the change in rel BMI over the

four-year period when the parents' obesity was taken into account.

Here is another interesting study on the subject:

Activity, dietary intake, and weight changes in a longitudinal study of

preadolescent and adolescent boys and girls.

Berkey CS, Rockett HR, Field AE, Gillman MW, Frazier AL, Camargo CA Jr,

Colditz GA.

Channing Laboratory, Brigham & Women's Hospital, Harvard Medical School,

Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA. catherine.berkey@...

OBJECTIVE: To examine the role of physical activity, inactivity, and dietary

patterns on annual weight changes among preadolescents and adolescents,

taking growth and development into account. STUDY DESIGN: We studied a

cohort of 6149 girls and 4620 boys from all over the United States who were

9 to 14 years old in 1996. All returned questionnaires in the fall of 1996

and a year later in 1997. Each child provided his or her current height and

weight and a detailed assessment of typical past-year dietary intakes,

physical activities, and recreational inactivities (TV, videos/VCR, and

video/computer games). METHODS: Our hypotheses were that physical activity

and dietary fiber intake are negatively correlated with annual changes in

adiposity and that recreational inactivity (TV/videos/games), caloric

intake, and dietary fat intake are positively correlated with annual changes

in adiposity. Separately for boys and girls, we performed regression

analysis of 1-year change in body mass index (BMI; kg/m(2)). All

hypothesized factors were in the model simultaneously with several

adjustment factors. RESULTS: Larger increases in BMI from 1996 to 1997 were

among girls who reported higher caloric intakes (.0061 +/-.0026 kg/m(2) per

100 kcal/day; beta +/- standard error), less physical activity (-.0284

+/-.0142 kg/m(2)/hour/day) and more time with TV/videos/games (.0372

+/-.0106 kg/m(2)/hour/day) during the year between the 2 BMI assessments.

Larger BMI increases were among boys who reported more time with

TV/videos/games (.0384 +/-.0101) during the year. For both boys and girls, a

larger rise in caloric intake from 1996 to 1997 predicted larger BMI

increases (girls:.0059 +/-.0027 kg/m(2) per increase of 100 kcal/day;

boys:.0082 +/-.0030). No significant associations were noted for

energy-adjusted dietary fat or fiber. CONCLUSIONS: For both boys and girls,

a 1-year increase in BMI was larger in those who reported more time with

TV/videos/games during the year between the 2 BMI measurements, and in those

who reported that their caloric intakes increased more from 1 year to the

next. Larger year-to-year increases in BMI were also seen among girls who

reported higher caloric intakes and less physical activity during the year

between the 2 BMI measurements. Although the magnitudes of these estimated

effects were small, their cumulative effects, year after year during

adolescence, would produce substantial gains in body weight. Strategies to

prevent excessive caloric intakes, to decrease time with TV/videos/games,

and to increase physical activity would be promising as a means to prevent

obesity.

Another study that shows that exercise is the problem:

Preschool physical activity level and change in body fatness in young

children. The Framingham Children's Study.

LL, Nguyen US, Rothman KJ, Cupples LA, Ellison RC.

Department of Medicine, Boston University School of Medicine, MA

02118, USA.

This study examined the effect of preschool physical activity on the change

in body fatness from preschool to first grade. The Framingham Children's

Study, a longitudinal study of childhood cardiovascular risk behaviors,

began in 1987 with the enrollment of 106 children aged 3-5 years and their

parents. The present analyses include 97 healthy children with complete data

from study entry into first grade. Physical activity was assessed twice

yearly for 5 days with an electronic motion sensor. The authors estimated

change in the child's level of body fat from preschool to first grade by

using the slopes of triceps and subscapular skinfolds and body mass index.

On average, active girls (i.e., those with above-median activity levels)

gained 1.0 mm in their triceps skinfolds from baseline to first grade, while

inactive girls gained 1.75 mm. Active boys lost an average of 0.75 mm in

their triceps, while inactive boys gained 0.25 mm. When age, television

viewing, energy intake, baseline triceps, and parents' body mass indices

were controlled for, inactive preschoolers were 3.8 (95% confidence interval

1.4-10.6) times as likely as active preschoolers to have an increasing

triceps slope during follow up (rather than a stable or decreasing slope).

This relative risk estimate was slightly higher for children with more body

fat at baseline. In this study, preschool-aged children with low levels of

physical activity gained substantially more subcutaneous fat than did more

active children.

Another study that shows carbs are not the problem:

Obesity and nutrition in children. The Belgian Luxembourg Child Study IV.

Guillaume M, Lapidus L, Lambert A.

Institute of Hygiene and Epidemiology, Department of Epidemiology, National

Center for Research in Nutrition and Health, Brussels, Belgium.

OBJECTIVE: To analyse the association between nutritional and familial

factors and obesity in boys and girls. DESIGN: Randomized, cross-sectional

population study. SETTING: Province de Luxembourg, Belgium. Subjects: One

thousand and twenty-eight boys and girls in age strata 6-8, 8-10 and 10-12

y, comprising 70.3% of primary cohort. METHODS: Examinations included

anthropometric measurements and questionnaires covering familial,

socioeconomic and psychosocial factors. A three day dietary record was

obtained in 955 children. This was analysed in relation to the

anthropometric data. RESULTS: In comparison with similar studies from other

regions and recommended allowances, the intakes of total energy, fat,

particularly saturated fat and cholesterol, were high, while consumption of

carbohydrate and fiber was low, as well as the polyunsaturated/saturated

ratio of fat. Total energy intake showed no or weakly significant

correlations with anthropometric factors. However, total fat (P=0.045) and

saturated fat (P=0.0005) intake showed consistent positive correlations with

body mass index (BMI, kg/m2) and skinfold thickness, with corresponding

negative relationships to carbohydrate intake (P=0.034) in boys. Such

relationships were also found when calculated as energy density. These

associations were not statistically significant in girls. The high fat, low

carbohydrate pattern of the nutritional status seemed to be more pronounced

in families where the father had a low level of education (lipids, boys,

P=0.0007), and where both parents were obese (saturated fat, boys, P=0.023),

suggesting involvement of socioeconomic and familial factors. CONCLUSION:

The lack of correlation between factors indicating obesity and total energy

intake suggests that the positive energy balance causing obesity is due

mainly to a low energy output. However, since energy intake measurements are

imprecise, overeating can not be excluded, particularly since elevated

consumption of food with high contents of fat, found in these children seems

to be poorly regulated.

How do you explain these kids actually losing weight on a high carb diet?

Weight loss during 12 week's ad libitum carbohydrate-rich diet in overweight

and normal-weight subjects at a Danish work site.

Siggaard R, Raben A, Astrup A.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural

University, Frederiksberg, Denmark.

The effect of 12 week's ad libitum carbohydrate-rich, low-fat diet on total

body weight, lean body mass, and fat mass was studied in a group of healthy

subjects at a Danish work-site (I) (n = 50, BMI = 28.4 +/- 0.7 kg/m2).

Sixteen subjects served as controls © (BMI = 27.0 +/- 1.0 kg/m2). After 12

weeks the I subjects had decreased their fat intake from 39.0 +/- 1.1

energy-% (E%) to 28.0 +/- 1.2 E% and increased their carbohydrate intake

from 46.0 +/- 1.1 E% to 56.4 +/- 1.1. E% (p < 0.05 vs. C). Moreover, a

significant loss of body weight (4.2 +/- 0.4 kg) and fat mass (4.4 +/- 0.6

kg) was observed in I (p < 0.05 vs. C). The weight loss in I was not

regained at 24 and 52 weeks' follow-up (82% of I participating) compared to

baseline. The cost per kg lost weight amounted to $14.7 / person. In

conclusion, instructions at a work site in ad libitum intake of a

carbohydrate-rich, low-fat diet resulted in a significant loss of body

weight and fat mass in overweight and normal-weight subjects.

I can add many more studies, but I think the above studies support my theory

that it is not carbs, but lack of exercise, and possibly overeating that is

the cause of obesity. Let me know if these studies are not good enough, I

will kindly add more.

Bob F.

San Mateo, Ca

>From: " Diego Crespo " <gladiadores@...>

>Reply-Supertraining

><Supertraining >

>Subject: Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

>Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:17:23 -0500

>

>You think that because Chinese seem to have a higher carb diet than Chinese

>Americans my idea of high carb eating leading to obesity of children is

>incorrect.

>

>I have 2 problems with this:

>1) Chinese Americans probably have more in common with Chinese than other

>American groups as far as diet. E.g. I was raised in the US but had coffee

>and toast for breakfast never had cereal or orange juice.

>

>2) More active populations naturally have higher carbs with positive not

>detrimental effects, e.g. boxers, distance runners, farmers, etc..One would

>have to study a sedentary population in China with a sedentary pop in

>America to improve that study.

>

>Diego Crespo

>Quito, Ecuador

>

> Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

>

_________________________________________________________________

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.

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January 1, 2002

,

" Prove " is not a word used in science. " Probably " is a word upon which all

modern science is based on. A study is repeated hundreds of times to see if

one get similar results. People's ideas are not just " proved wrong " or

labeled " incorrect to say the least " , etc..before any experimentation and

before even any real theory has been proposed.

A study based on a sample " probably " tells you something about that sample

under very unique a specific circumstances. One can not, based on a few

samples " prove " that the nation with the greatest population on earth eats

like or doesnt eat like another nation which has nearly 300 million people.

Self reporting and error in energy expenditure are other factors that make

nutritional studies very doubtful.

Moving on to practical issues. O.k. so I think carbs are 1 factor

responsible for obesity in children and lack of a play environment the

second issue i want to shine light on. That doesn't mean I think these are

the only reasons, just practical starting points (no theory yet). Why

wouldnt i think carbs are a big factor, they have energy, they are the best

tasting, they are the cheapest and therefore get put into everything.

Let us say you say no. O.k. how do you get two generations that have been

told to " exercise " , " eat healthy " by the whole medical fitness educational

establishment to reverse all the trends?

Diego Crespo

Quito,Ecuador

Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.

> http://www.hotmail.com

>

> Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

> mygroups

>

> Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you

> wish them to be published!

>

January 1, 2002

Diego,

Please don't try to lecture me on science. This is not a personal issue. I

really

have taken enough biology clases to know about scientific studies. Maybe

correlation would have been a better word, but let's not get hooked

definitions and deal with the subject at hand. I have posted about 10

studies that support my idea that carbs are most likely not the cause of

obesity. I have supported all of my claims with scientific studies, and you

have posted no studies that support your claim. If there is enough evidence

to support your claim, then I would be more than happy to change my position

on the subject.

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca.

---------------------------

From: " Diego Crespo " <gladiadores@...>

,

> " Prove " is not a word used in science. " Probably " is a word upon which all

>modern science is based on. A study is repeated hundreds of times to see

>if one get similar results. People's ideas are not just " proved wrong " or

>labeled " incorrect to say the least " , etc..before any experimentation and

>before even any real theory has been proposed.

>

>A study based on a sample " probably " tells you something about that sample

>under very unique a specific circumstances. One can not, based on a few

>samples " prove " that the nation with the greatest population on earth eats

>like or doesnt eat like another nation which has nearly 300 million people.

>Self reporting and error in energy expenditure are other factors that make

>nutritional studies very doubtful.

>

>Moving on to practical issues. O.k. so I think carbs are 1 factor

>responsible for obesity in children and lack of a play environment the

>second issue i want to shine light on. That doesn't mean I think these are

>the only reasons, just practical starting points (no theory yet). Why

>wouldnt i think carbs are a big factor, they have energy, they are the best

>tasting, they are the cheapest and therefore get put into everything.

>

>Let us say you say no. O.k. how do you get two generations that have been

>told to " exercise " , " eat healthy " by the whole medical fitness educational

>establishment to reverse all the trends?

>

>Diego Crespo

January 1, 2002

After reading the studies I posted, I would suggest that lack of exercise is

the main cause of childhood obesity. Therefore, the solution lies in getting

children to become more active. In addition, eating too much fat may also be

another factor, so we should try to lower our children's fat intake. These

two solutions would probably wipe out most obesity, but first we need to get

the parents to help their kids live more active lives. I think that is where

the bigger problem is. Any suggestions on how we can do this?

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

---------

Diego Crespo:

<O.k. how do you get two generations that have been

told to " exercise " , " eat healthy " by the whole medical fitness

educational establishment to reverse all the trends? >

January 1, 2002

,

Your studies support nothing much less show any causation. You have listed

various studies from the same university in Spain, some from Italy and one

from Denmark. One was a vetinary center. The canadian and 1 u.s. study was

not even on topic.

The fact is none have remotely described or proven anything about the U.S.

diet and carbs which is what this topic was about. Much less was there any

manipulation or double blind study of carbs in the U.S..

You are using science to market your " ideas " and to censor or bully other

ideas with words such as " incorrect to say the least " . That is not in the

spirit of science and it is not just a question of definitions.

Reading your past posts, starting from a vague disagreement, and mentioning

an anonymous source on the zone websight (which oddly enough is well know to

be against high carb consumption) to a highly detailed list of " proof " just

gives me the sickening feeling that I am being marketed to. It seems you

have a lot of material although none proves anything.

Let me ask you straight out :

" America's Second Harvest is the country's largest domestic hunger-relief

organization, with an affiliate network of more than 200 regional food banks

that provide more than $2.3 billion annually in grocery products to 50,000

local charitable agencies. Prior to joining American Harvest as CEO, Mr.

Forney, during his very successful six-year tenure as CEO of the Chicago

Stock Exchange, achieved industry leading results including a compound

growth rate of more than 80 percent, annual increase in productivity of at

least 50 percent, and an increase in seat prices (market cap) of more than

15 times. Under Forney's leadership, the Exchange introduced innovative

over-the-counter trading and after-hours trading programs while maintaining

one of the most technologically advanced trading environments in the U.S. "

Is this you?

Diego Crespo

Quito, Ecuador

Re: Re: Childhood Obesity Epidemic

> Diego,

> Please don't try to lecture me on science. This is not a personal issue. I

really

> have taken enough biology clases to know about scientific studies. Maybe

> correlation would have been a better word, but let's not get hooked

> definitions and deal with the subject at hand. I have posted about 10

> studies that support my idea that carbs are most likely not the cause of

> obesity. I have supported all of my claims with scientific studies, and

you

> have posted no studies that support your claim. If there is enough

evidence

> to support your claim, then I would be more than happy to change my

position

> on the subject.

>

> Bob Forney

> San Mateo, Ca.

>

> ---------------------------

>

> From: " Diego Crespo " <gladiadores@...>

>

> ,

>

> > " Prove " is not a word used in science. " Probably " is a word upon which

all

> >modern science is based on. A study is repeated hundreds of times to see

> >if one get similar results. People's ideas are not just " proved wrong "

or

> >labeled " incorrect to say the least " , etc..before any experimentation and

> >before even any real theory has been proposed.

> >

> >A study based on a sample " probably " tells you something about that

sample

> >under very unique a specific circumstances. One can not, based on a few

> >samples " prove " that the nation with the greatest population on earth

eats

> >like or doesnt eat like another nation which has nearly 300 million

people.

> >Self reporting and error in energy expenditure are other factors that

make

> >nutritional studies very doubtful.

> >

> >Moving on to practical issues. O.k. so I think carbs are 1 factor

> >responsible for obesity in children and lack of a play environment the

> >second issue i want to shine light on. That doesn't mean I think these

are

> >the only reasons, just practical starting points (no theory yet). Why

> >wouldnt i think carbs are a big factor, they have energy, they are the

best

> >tasting, they are the cheapest and therefore get put into everything.

> >

> >Let us say you say no. O.k. how do you get two generations that have

been

> >told to " exercise " , " eat healthy " by the whole medical fitness

educational

> >establishment to reverse all the trends?

> >

> >Diego Crespo

>

> Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

> mygroups

>

> Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you

> wish them to be published!

>

January 1, 2002

Diego,

You are showing me you are unwilling to change your mind, no matter what I

throw out there, and I am not willing to spend all my time posting studies

and supporting my idea if you are not willing to at least have an open mind.

The studies showed clearly that children who were overweight ate less carbs

then those who were of normal weight. How is that off topic? As I stated in

that same e-mail, let's get to the bottom and go right after your claim that

carbs are the cause of obesity, and as the studies I posted showed, that was

not the case.

It doesn't matter where in the world those studies were done.

They were repeated by many times and showed the same results. I simply stated,

and backed up that you cannot blame carbohydrates alone for obesity, and if you

are going to say that the studies did not show that is not the case, then you

must have

been reading some different studies. The funny thing is that I have posted many

studies that support my

claim, yet you haven't posted a single thing to support your claim. I rest

my case. Kindly post any relevant scientific studies to offer a rebuttal of

what I sent.

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

--------------

From: " Diego Crespo " <gladiadores@...>

>,

>Your studies support nothing much less show any causation. You have listed

>various studies from the same university in Spain, some from Italy and one

>from Denmark. One was a vetinary center. The canadian and 1 u.s. study was

>not even on topic.

>

>The fact is none have remotely described or proven anything about the U.S.

>diet and carbs which is what this topic was about. Much less was there any

>manipulation or double blind study of carbs in the U.S..

>

>You are using science to market your " ideas " and to censor or bully other

>ideas with words such as " incorrect to say the least " . That is not in the

>spirit of science and it is not just a question of definitions.

>

>Reading your past posts, starting from a vague disagreement, and mentioning

>an anonymous source on the zone websight (which oddly enough is well know

>to

>be against high carb consumption) to a highly detailed list of " proof " just

>gives me the sickening feeling that I am being marketed to. It seems you

>have a lot of material although none proves anything.

---------

> > Diego,

> > Please don't try to lecture me on science. This is not a personal issue.

Ireally

> > have taken enough biology classes to know about scientific studies. Maybe

> > correlation would have been a better word, but let's not get hooked

> > definitions and deal with the subject at hand. I have posted about 10

> > studies that support my idea that carbs are most likely not the cause of

> > obesity. I have supported all of my claims with scientific studies, and you

> > have posted no studies that support your claim. If there is enough evidence

> > to support your claim, then I would be more than happy to change my position

> > on the subject.

> >

> > Bob Forney

January 1, 2002

You said only ONE from the USA? There were actually many more studies, 10

studies to be exact, and 2 from the U.S. So far, you have posted 0 to support

your

claim. I can add another 50, but something tells me that no matter how many

I add, you will find some reason to dismiss them. The following were from the

U.S.

1. Activity, dietary intake, and weight changes in a longitudinal study of

preadolescent and adolescent boys and girls.

Berkey CS, Rockett HR, Field AE, Gillman MW, Frazier AL, Camargo CA Jr,

Colditz GA.

Channing Laboratory, Brigham & Women's Hospital, Harvard Med School,

Boston, Massachusetts, USA

2. Preschool physical activity level and change in body fatness in young

children. The Framingham Children's Study.

LL, Nguyen US, Rothman KJ, Cupples LA, Ellison RC.

Dept of Medicine, Boston University School of Medicine, MA, USA.

But since they were both in the same state, maybe we should only count one,

or maybe throw them both out;)

Forney

....City? USA

--------------

Diego Crespo wrote:

>You have listed various studies from the same university in Spain, some from

Italy and one

>from Denmark. One was a vetinary center. The canadian and 1 u.s. study was not

even on topic.

>

>The fact is none have remotely described or proven anything about the U.S.

>diet and carbs which is what this topic was about. Much less was there any

>manipulation or double blind study of carbs in the U.S..

>

>You are using science to market your " ideas " and to censor or bully other

>ideas with words such as " incorrect to say the least " . That is not in the

>spirit of science and it is not just a question of definitions.

>

>Reading your past posts, starting from a vague disagreement, and mentioning

>an anonymous source on the zone websight (which oddly enough is well know to

>be against high carb consumption) to a highly detailed list of " proof " just

>gives me the sickening feeling that I am being marketed to. It seems you

>have a lot of material although none proves anything.

January 2, 2002

Forney,

Below are the two U.S. studies in your own words that " prove " that

carbohydrate consumption is not to blame for obesity in children in the U.S.

Please in your words explain this leap of reasoning. None of these studies

neither focuses on carbohydrates, manipulates them as a variable, uses

double blind studies, nor attempts to make any generalizations about

carbohydrate consumption in the U.S. For your statement about your other

studies not mattering if they are from the U.S. you are either confusing the

issue on purpose or incredibly naive for someone with so much information.

If we are talking about obesity in children in the U.S. how can it not

matter if the studies are done in Spain, Italy, Denmark? How can small

samples taken outside the U.S. say anything about carbohydrate consumption

in children inside the U.S.. What does the diet in Madrid tell us about the

diet in New York? Please answer the questions...

Diego Crespo

Quito,Ecuador

------------

The Harvard study concludes:

For both boys and girls, a 1-year increase in BMI was larger in those who

reported more time

with TV/videos/games during the year between the 2 BMI measurements, and in

those who reported that their caloric intakes increased more from 1 year to

the next. Larger year-to-year increases in BMI were also seen among girls who

reported higher caloric intakes and less physical activity during the year

between the 2 BMI measurements. Although the magnitudes of these estimated

effects were small, their cumulative effects, year after year during

adolescence, would produce substantial gains in body weight. Strategies to

prevent excessive caloric intakes, to decrease time with TV/videos/games,

and to increase physical activity would be promising as a means to prevent

obesity.

The Framington study concludes:

In this study (cardiac risk study), preschool-aged children with low levels

of physical activity gained substantially more subcutaneous fat than did more

active children.

Activity, dietary intake, and weight changes in a longitudinal study of

preadolescent and adolescent boys and girls.

Berkey CS, Rockett H, Field A, Gillman M, Frazier A, Camargo CA, Colditz GA.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the role of physical activity, inactivity, and

dietary patterns on annual weight changes among preadolescents and adolescents,

taking growth and development into account. STUDY DESIGN: We studied a

cohort of 6149 girls and 4620 boys from all over the United States who were

9 to 14 years old in 1996. All returned questionnaires in the fall of 1996

and a year later in 1997. Each child provided his or her current height

and weight and a detailed assessment of typical past-year dietary intakes,