Re: Re: Good Mornings = Stiffleg Deadlifts?

[Guest guest]

I have seen those percentages on a Q & A post from Dave Tate's site about 3 years

ago.

They were the current averages among their current lifters. I don't think it was

ever

meant to be a guideline. There are so many differences between individuals that

the

variances in these averages would be too large to be meaningful.

Doug Schurman, CSCS

www.BodyResults.com

Seattle, WA USA

--------------

From: flip2down

The good morning should be 71% of the max deadlift and 60% of

max squat (73% of max box squat).

[Any reason why those precise percentages? Someone who deadlifts

only 600lbs should then do full good mornings with over 420lbs!

The load that one uses in good mornings depends on one's training

objective - heavy for strength and lighter for power, with something

in between for (more repetition style) hypertrophy. Thus one could

do good mornings with anything between about 25-60 percent of one's

max deadlift, depending on one's goal and level of expertise. Mel Siff]

Christos Sturiano

Wading River, New York

----------------

From: Pete Arroyo

> I have come to understand through this list and many

> other publications that strength in the good morning

> carry's over to a good squat. My question is if

> anybody knows of any definitive ratios of good morning

> to squat poundages? If there are not could anyone give

> me a ballpark ratio because I am planing on a squat

> cycle in the next two weeks and I am not sure what

> numbers I should go for. My good morning strength has

> increased close to 150 lbs. over the last few months

> from 185x1 to 315x3 (315x1 on the bottom-up version).

> The last time I squatted heavy I hit 390x3.

[Guest guest]

Fascinating.

let's see. What about the lifter who out-deadlifts their squat by a LOT?

but would love to improve the squat in relation to such a good pull...hmm...

try me, for example. 71% of my deadlift lifetime platform PR is right

now....451 x .71. Ok. that's got me doing a 320 lb good morning. That's

about equal to what I am squatting to IPF depth right now AND my current AMR

squat. I'm 41, 5'9, 200 lbs, female, drug free PL and a champion, so this

isn't a newbie imbalance here. Isn't that good morning supposed to be LESS

than what you're squatting?

let's see, lifetime PR in the squat is 365. ok, even though I'm injured in

the knee and not squatting that for the past 2 years, let's try that to

check your theory. 365 x .60. that's 219 lbs. my current squat is more

like 315, so let's try that. 315 x .60 = 189 lbs. this discrepancy between

what I should good morning gets worse with this adjustment. this for a

single? 2 years ago I did 185 x 8's, seated GM's, belly to the

bench....sounds like a giant step backward?

Why on earth should I, a premier puller, be trying a 320 lb good morning to

improve my squat? I can squat 315 to below parallel for a USAPL American

Master Record. I fail to see why this ratio of percentages would benefit me

in what might well be in my gym either public suicide OR possibly result in

another useless demonstration of terror to the civilians, I might rep it.

who knows....

I can straight leg deadlift, without a belt, 315 x 10's by the way. From

the hang. As in bent to 90 degrees, then up. So why would I do a single

SLDL of 315? A good morning might be likely, come to think of it, given

this - but perhaps for reps? I don't know, I don't do good mornings any

more. I quit that 2 years ago, when I was doing seated gm's quite deep with

185 for 8's....the standing ones were judged inferior as using too much leg

by those I trained with at the time... Given the potential for a GM to roll

up your neck, SLDL would be safer, if I was to go for a heavier weight

there.... and in reality they do much represent the same move and back

strength.

I do not believe that the " deficiency " in my squat is due to any lack of

back strength. Oh yes, perhaps I could train up to a 320 lb good morning

someday, probably for reps...from the looks of my back strength, wiht

sufficient spotting?...but what good would this do to a lifter required to

make exceptional depth?

Therefore, I suggest these ratios are not logical for a lifter who is a good

puller - and go further to suggest that for the good deadlifter, other means

must be found to strengthen the squat. Perhaps they are more applicable to

lifters not in need of extraordinary depth - or perhaps those who do not

have good deadlifts? The lack of a good deadlift to go with a squat might

bring more the question of back strength into a picture? or would this all

perhaps come down to a question of build? One look at the way I'm built

says I'm not likely to become a great bencher....one look at the length of

thighs and arms says I might be a good puller....this would be more an

indicator than my good morning... coupled with an unfortunately long femur,

this can present more of a challenge due to the way I'm built, in the squat,

and lacking a big tummy to bounce off of.... If I got into the bad

positioning of a good morning with my long legs and necessary high bar

position, I would be a dead duck ANYWAY, regardless of back strength, with

IPF depth.

So I think that other means would be needed for a lifter in this situation

(and i know several more, I am by no means unique) for improvement of the

squat if one happens to excel in the deadlift. What then, out of

curiousity, would a max SLDL of around probably 405 or more do supposedly

for my squat? should I be automatically squatting that or more? if one

takes that as hmm.....60% of my best squat?

Back strength alone will not improve my squat. This may work for those

without proven back strength, or newer lifters, but it does not appear to

hold true for a good deadlifter seeking to improve a squat.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Good Mornings = Stiffleg Deadlifts?

>The good morning should be 71% of the max deadlift and 60% of

>max squat (73% of max box squat).

>

>[Any reason why those precise percentages? Someone who deadlifts

>only 600lbs should then do full good mornings with over 420lbs!

>The load that one uses in good mornings depends on one's training

>objective - heavy for strength and lighter for power, with something

>in between for (more repetition style) hypertrophy. Thus one could

>do good mornings with anything between about 25-60 percent of one's

>max deadlift, depending on one's goal and level of expertise. Mel Siff]

>

>Christos Sturiano

>Wading River, New York

>

>----------------

>

>From: Pete Arroyo

>

>> I have come to understand through this list and many

>> other publications that strength in the good morning

>> carry's over to a good squat. My question is if

>> anybody knows of any definitive ratios of good morning

>> to squat poundages? If there are not could anyone give

>> me a ballpark ratio because I am planing on a squat

>> cycle in the next two weeks and I am not sure what

>> numbers I should go for. My good morning strength has

>> increased close to 150 lbs. over the last few months

>> from 185x1 to 315x3 (315x1 on the bottom-up version).

>> The last time I squatted heavy I hit 390x3.

>

>

>

>Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

>mygroups

>

>Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you

>wish them to be published!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I don't know how you squat or deadlift but there shouldn't be so much

discrepancy between the two lifts with your experience unless you are

getting into the poundages where your wrists can't keep up with your

body (but then your squat would be bigger than your deadlift). Or you

are built like a chimp (tiny legs and " dragging your knuckles on the

floor " arms). I would really look at my form in this case. If you have

long legs (especially long femurs - which, btw, isn't the makeup of a

good puller), you should squat wide because this brings your leverages

very close to the desirable. If I squat shoulder width, my knees come as

far forward as my toes. The way I currently squat, my knees never go

past my shins. This is where your deadlifting muscles start squatting

(ie the back, butt, hamstrings). If you squat close, then you'll have

much less (to very little) carry over from your deadlift and goodmorning

to your squat.

Also, since you're only talking about back strength when talking about

the goodmorning, then you don't really know what it's about. Have you

actually tried any cycles with true goodmornings (not seated) where you

maxed out? You say you tried standing ones and your training partners

said you used too much leg. This means you have a weak butt and/or weak

hamstrings. You probably deadlift sumo right?

Try them for a month or two and then come back and say they don't work.

And unless you keep the weight under your shoulders by pushing your

pelvis back, a SLDL is not the same as a goodmorning. Everyone usually

does a SLDL like a normal DL, dragging the weight along their legs. Plus

Dave once wrote that he knew people that tried SLDLs as a max effort

lift and they all ended up with hamstring injuries.

Good luck,

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

Schaefer wrote:

> Fascinating.

>

> let's see. What about the lifter who out-deadlifts their squat by a LOT?

> but would love to improve the squat in relation to such a good

> pull...hmm...

>

> try me, for example. 71% of my deadlift lifetime platform PR is right

> now....451 x .71. Ok. that's got me doing a 320 lb good morning. That's

> about equal to what I am squatting to IPF depth right now AND my

> current AMR

> squat. I'm 41, 5'9, 200 lbs, female, drug free PL and a champion, so this

> isn't a newbie imbalance here. Isn't that good morning supposed to be

> LESS

> than what you're squatting?

>

> let's see, lifetime PR in the squat is 365. ok, even though I'm

> injured in

> the knee and not squatting that for the past 2 years, let's try that to

> check your theory. 365 x .60. that's 219 lbs. my current squat is more

> like 315, so let's try that. 315 x .60 = 189 lbs. this discrepancy

> between

> what I should good morning gets worse with this adjustment. this for a

> single? 2 years ago I did 185 x 8's, seated GM's, belly to the

> bench....sounds like a giant step backward?

>

> Why on earth should I, a premier puller, be trying a 320 lb good

> morning to

> improve my squat? I can squat 315 to below parallel for a USAPL American

> Master Record. I fail to see why this ratio of percentages would

> benefit me

> in what might well be in my gym either public suicide OR possibly

> result in

> another useless demonstration of terror to the civilians, I might rep it.

> who knows....

>

> I can straight leg deadlift, without a belt, 315 x 10's by the way. From

> the hang. As in bent to 90 degrees, then up. So why would I do a single

> SLDL of 315? A good morning might be likely, come to think of it, given

> this - but perhaps for reps? I don't know, I don't do good mornings any

> more. I quit that 2 years ago, when I was doing seated gm's quite

> deep with

> 185 for 8's....the standing ones were judged inferior as using too

> much leg

> by those I trained with at the time... Given the potential for a GM

> to roll

> up your neck, SLDL would be safer, if I was to go for a heavier weight

> there.... and in reality they do much represent the same move and back

> strength.

>

> I do not believe that the " deficiency " in my squat is due to any lack of

> back strength. Oh yes, perhaps I could train up to a 320 lb good morning

> someday, probably for reps...from the looks of my back strength, wiht

> sufficient spotting?...but what good would this do to a lifter required to

> make exceptional depth?

>

> Therefore, I suggest these ratios are not logical for a lifter who is

> a good

> puller - and go further to suggest that for the good deadlifter, other

> means

> must be found to strengthen the squat. Perhaps they are more applicable to

> lifters not in need of extraordinary depth - or perhaps those who do not

> have good deadlifts? The lack of a good deadlift to go with a squat might

> bring more the question of back strength into a picture? or would this all

> perhaps come down to a question of build? One look at the way I'm built

> says I'm not likely to become a great bencher....one look at the length of

> thighs and arms says I might be a good puller....this would be more an

> indicator than my good morning... coupled with an unfortunately long

> femur,

> this can present more of a challenge due to the way I'm built, in the

> squat,

> and lacking a big tummy to bounce off of.... If I got into the bad

> positioning of a good morning with my long legs and necessary high bar

> position, I would be a dead duck ANYWAY, regardless of back strength, with

> IPF depth.

>

> So I think that other means would be needed for a lifter in this situation

> (and i know several more, I am by no means unique) for improvement of the

> squat if one happens to excel in the deadlift. What then, out of

> curiousity, would a max SLDL of around probably 405 or more do supposedly

> for my squat? should I be automatically squatting that or more? if one

> takes that as hmm.....60% of my best squat?

>

> Back strength alone will not improve my squat. This may work for those

> without proven back strength, or newer lifters, but it does not appear to

> hold true for a good deadlifter seeking to improve a squat.

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

>

>

> Re: Good Mornings = Stiffleg Deadlifts?

>

>

> >The good morning should be 71% of the max deadlift and 60% of

> >max squat (73% of max box squat).

> >

> >[Any reason why those precise percentages? Someone who deadlifts

> >only 600lbs should then do full good mornings with over 420lbs!

> >The load that one uses in good mornings depends on one's training

> >objective - heavy for strength and lighter for power, with something

> >in between for (more repetition style) hypertrophy. Thus one could

> >do good mornings with anything between about 25-60 percent of one's

> >max deadlift, depending on one's goal and level of expertise. Mel Siff]

> >

> >Christos Sturiano

> >Wading River, New York

> >

> >----------------

> >

> >From: Pete Arroyo

> >

> >> I have come to understand through this list and many

> >> other publications that strength in the good morning

> >> carry's over to a good squat. My question is if

> >> anybody knows of any definitive ratios of good morning

> >> to squat poundages? If there are not could anyone give

> >> me a ballpark ratio because I am planing on a squat

> >> cycle in the next two weeks and I am not sure what

> >> numbers I should go for. My good morning strength has

> >> increased close to 150 lbs. over the last few months

> >> from 185x1 to 315x3 (315x1 on the bottom-up version).

> >> The last time I squatted heavy I hit 390x3.

> >

> >

> >

> >Modify or cancel your subscription here:

> >

> >mygroups

> >

> >Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

> you

> >wish them to be published!

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wrong. I'm one of the few conventional pullers.

That's item one. Item 2 - it had nothing to do with my good morning form,

it was the judgement of those training me that seated gm's were of more

value than standing. I have never done standing gm's. I see no point.

Item 3, I am a wide stance but not a westside stance. I am beyond shoulder

width in my squat, with the toes pointed out, and I use a heel, I have long

femurs. I am NOT built like a chimp. And thank you, by the way, for the

comparison. I have to attain IPF depth, this means I have to get at least

2 " or more below parallel. I also have to follow the rules regarding bar

placement and restrictions on lean allowed, as well as the other IPF rules.

A good morning IS a test of back strength. I do not see where it will aid a

deep squatter as required by IPF rules and judging now.

And my deadlift is conventional...so in theory, my squat " should " be

stronger if back strength were a sole determination. I think that my

conventional pull also might rule out really weak hamstrings too...... as

does that SLDL set I can perform...

If I were indeed a sumo puller, one could perhaps " assume " that I am solely

pulling with my back, but that is not the case with a lift that is really a

partial squat from the floor....

Also, with regard to your comment about long femurs and the

deadlift....there were two other 198'ers, male, in Colorado, with the same

short waisted, long femured build...and one was pulling 680 and missing 705

using just a belt and singlet. the other was my mullet who did a 501

deadlift in his first meet, after only 3 months of training. It should have

been 550, and he likely would have gone on to pull around the 700 mark had

he not decided to quit serious training. The one thing I will say is long

femurs, in proportion to calves, is a bad idea if you're trying SUMO. but

for conventional it can apparently be an advantage, probably linked to

height in some way too though.

My WRISTS? what on earth? I don't wrap my wrists for the deadlift OR the

squat, I do NOT see what my wrists have to do with my ability to squat! Not

only that, but if my WRISTS were weak I'd NEVER be able to hang onto 470 lb

deadlift attempts...which I have managed twice already. I do NOT have

problems hanging onto the bar!

Last, but not least, I do NOT do an SLDL like you describe, but with the bar

out from my legs, from the hang, and pop the hips forward. the bar is

lowered from lockout OUT from the body, I stand on a block to require

balance as WELL as focus, and I go to 90 degrees, then forcefully come up.

so it really IS quite similar to a standing GM if you take that into

consideration. Please do not assume that EVERYONE has bad form on an SLDL!

what you are describing is more a rack lockout without the rack, and I do

those as well.

Dmitri, with all due respect, I do not think that the percentages and theory

of using good mornings will make my squat better, and I further think that

does apply to other lifters wiht strong deadlifts but perhaps less than

desired squats due to height and perhaps other mechanical factors.

The only application I can see is if I get on the front of my feet, i.e. am

out of balance leaning forward, and must somehow back up the squat to finish

the lift. I do however, squat with my weight on my heels and use my legs to

drive it up. If I get forward with a high bar position, I am likely to find

the bar up the neck and not be able to recover the lift and use what is a

good morning position to bring the bar to lockout. I would also like to add

here that IPF/USAPL requires a more upright squat than some federations,

where perhaps they can use a more good morning approach as well as far wider

stance.

I still stand by my original statement, that this theory does not hold for

those with a disproportionately larger deadlift than squat, seeking

improvement in their squat.

Warmest regards,

The Phantom

Re: Good Mornings = Stiffleg Deadlifts?

>>

>>

>> >The good morning should be 71% of the max deadlift and 60% of

>> >max squat (73% of max box squat).

>> >

>> >[Any reason why those precise percentages? Someone who deadlifts

>> >only 600lbs should then do full good mornings with over 420lbs!

>> >The load that one uses in good mornings depends on one's training

>> >objective - heavy for strength and lighter for power, with something

>> >in between for (more repetition style) hypertrophy. Thus one could

>> >do good mornings with anything between about 25-60 percent of one's

>> >max deadlift, depending on one's goal and level of expertise. Mel

Siff]

>> >

>> >Christos Sturiano

>> >Wading River, New York

>> >

>> >----------------

>> >

>> >From: Pete Arroyo

>> >

>> >> I have come to understand through this list and many

>> >> other publications that strength in the good morning

>> >> carry's over to a good squat. My question is if

>> >> anybody knows of any definitive ratios of good morning

>> >> to squat poundages? If there are not could anyone give

>> >> me a ballpark ratio because I am planing on a squat

>> >> cycle in the next two weeks and I am not sure what

>> >> numbers I should go for. My good morning strength has

>> >> increased close to 150 lbs. over the last few months

>> >> from 185x1 to 315x3 (315x1 on the bottom-up version).

>> >> The last time I squatted heavy I hit 390x3.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>> >

>> >mygroups

>> >

>> >Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

>> you

>> >wish them to be published!

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Sorry you took this so personally, . Unfortunately, that prevented

you from reading into what I was trying to say. I'll take it point by

point as you have.

Schaefer wrote:

> Wrong. I'm one of the few conventional pullers.

That's pretty surprizing but not very. There are people who can pretty

much pull the same either way.

> That's item one. Item 2 - it had nothing to do with my good morning

> form, it was the judgement of those training me that seated gm's were

> of more value than standing. I have never done standing gm's. I see

> no point.

This actually makes it even worse (as far as your judging the

goodmorning is concerned). From your original letter, I understood that

you did seated and then you did normal goodmornings and your partners

said you were using too much leg. So you haven't done goodmornings at

all and you're saying they don't work.

> Item 3, I am a wide stance but not a westside stance. I am beyond

> shoulder width in my squat, with the toes pointed out, and I use a

> heel, I have long femurs. I am NOT built like a chimp. And thank

> you, by the way, for the comparison. I have to attain IPF depth, this

> means I have to get at least 2 " or more below parallel. I also have

> to follow the rules regarding bar placement and restrictions on lean

> allowed, as well as the other IPF rules.

I didn't compare you to a chimp I said that's the makeup that - no

matter how much experience - would have a much larger deadlift than

squat. IPF is no different from anyone else. Legal is below parallel

(1mm or .5m, the rest is up to the judge). I just went to the Ontario

championships where 2 international judges were present and they were

passing just below parallel squats.

Also, width of your stance is not what determines which muscles you're

using. The easiest way to see is how your shin moves. A quadricep

squatter brings his knees forward. A hamstring squatter keeps his knees

behind the laces. Since you use a heel and have big femurs, I imagine

your knees come forward quite a bit making you a quad squatter.

What restrictions on forward lean? A lower bar placement actually makes

it harder to squat wide (moving your center of gravity back) forcing you

to either pull your knees further apart or lean forward more.

> A good morning IS a test of back strength. I do not see where it will

> aid a deep squatter as required by IPF rules and judging now.

NO it is NOT. It is a test of posterior chain strength. Try a maximal

goodmorning and then tell me what hurts. Since you are a quad squatter,

it won't help you to the extent which it helps me but it will still

help. Your hamstrings and your butt still have to be strong since you're

not doing bodybuilding squats (feet together, upright back).

> And my deadlift is conventional...so in theory, my squat " should " be

> stronger if back strength were a sole determination. I think that my

> conventional pull also might rule out really weak hamstrings too......

> as does that SLDL set I can perform...

You're probably right. But I imagine you could still get away with it if

you had a very strong back and butt relative to your hams. And once

again, stiff leg deadlifts don't stress the hamstrings as much as the

goodmorning (assuming you keep the bar close to your legs - which you

don't as I read further down). If you want a hamstring test, try some

glute ham raises.

> If I were indeed a sumo puller, one could perhaps " assume " that I am

> solely pulling with my back, but that is not the case with a lift that

> is really a partial squat from the floor....

....I thought doing the conv. deadlift as a " partial squat " was always

considered terrible form...

> Also, with regard to your comment about long femurs and the

> deadlift....there were two other 198'ers, male, in Colorado, with the

> same short waisted, long femured build...and one was pulling 680 and

> missing 705 using just a belt and singlet. the other was my mullet

> who did a 501 deadlift in his first meet, after only 3 months of

> training. It should have been 550, and he likely would have gone on

> to pull around the 700 mark had he not decided to quit serious

> training. The one thing I will say is long femurs, in proportion to

> calves, is a bad idea if you're trying SUMO. but for conventional it

> can apparently be an advantage, probably linked to height in some way

> too though.

I'm not saying it's impossible to be strong. Chuck Vogelpohl is not

built to squat. Matt Dimel was not built to deadlift (maybe at some

point he was...some 200lb ligher point). Nuff said. I'm talking about

physics. Long femurs are a disadvantage in the deadlift, no matter how

you pull. It's better for sumo, because you can pull your knees apart and

take some of that leverage disadvantage away. A deadlifting build is

what I described before, a chimp. Knuckle dragging arms, tiny legs,

short torso.

> My WRISTS? what on earth? I don't wrap my wrists for the deadlift OR

> the squat, I do NOT see what my wrists have to do with my ability to

> squat! Not only that, but if my WRISTS were weak I'd NEVER be able to

> hang onto 470 lb deadlift attempts...which I have managed twice

> already. I do NOT have problems hanging onto the bar!

Sorry, I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. The only time I

mentioned wrists it was a hypothetical reference to cases of

deadlift/squat discrepancies (ahem...1000lb squats and 800 lb deadlifts).

> Last, but not least, I do NOT do an SLDL like you describe, but with

> the bar out from my legs, from the hang, and pop the hips forward.

> the bar is lowered from lockout OUT from the body, I stand on a block to

require

> balance as WELL as focus, and I go to 90 degrees, then forcefully come

> up. so it really IS quite similar to a standing GM if you take that into

> consideration. Please do not assume that EVERYONE has bad form on an

> SLDL! what you are describing is more a rack lockout without the

> rack, and I do those as well.

Sorry, I was just playing the odds. As I've said above, you may have a

strong posterior chain. But just the fact that you use a heel when you

squat tells me one thing - you're not taking advantage of it. Give it a

shot one day. Get some flat sole shoes (or barefoot), take your stance

out (at your height, the width of the inside of the rack should be

sufficient), point your toes out at 45 degrees for now and do a few box squats.

Make sure you have someone at the side yelling at you if your

knees come forward. The first month I did Westside squatting, I thought

I had the form nailed. Then I asked someone to look from the side and I

was still doing what was basically a really wide quad squat. It took

weeks upon weeks of practice to get the descent to be just right. It

requires a lot more lean than you're probably used to (more assumptions

here, sorry if I'm wrong) and you have to consciously push your butt

back and pull your knees apart. If your groin flexibility and hip

strength is already good, then you could even try it with toes straight.

I still can't.

Also, you'll find that you can't take a low bar position or you will

have to lean forward too much. I put the bar back, but not down. I have

big enough rear delts that the bar can rest on top. I used to carry it

lower and when I did true westside squats, I found myself doing a

goodmorning squat.

> Dmitri, with all due respect, I do not think that the percentages and

> theory of using good mornings will make my squat better, and I further

> think that does apply to other lifters wiht strong deadlifts but

> perhaps less than desired squats due to height and perhaps other

> mechanical factors.

Go to the IPA Nationals results and show me one person with a deadlift

that's 30% bigger than their squat. Or since you insist that the IPF is

so much different, go to the IPF Worlds results and try to find it

there. Few or even none of these people is perfectly suited for both

lifts. They are the result of dedication, time and training. In other

words, people approaching their limit.

> The only application I can see is if I get on the front of my feet,

> i.e. am out of balance leaning forward, and must somehow back up the

> squat to finish the lift. I do however, squat with my weight on my

> heels and use my legs to drive it up. If I get forward with a high

> bar position, I am likely to find the bar up the neck and not be able

> to recover the lift and use what is a good morning position to bring

> the bar to lockout. I would also like to add here that IPF/USAPL

> requires a more upright squat than some federations, where perhaps

> they can use a more good morning approach as well as far wider stance.

If you squat with your posterior chain, you will never face this

problem. Same with the deadlift. If a deadlifter with proper form lets

the bar go, he should fall backwards, not forward (ok, if he falls at all).

Also, please enlighten me about the IPF/USAPL thing because I intend to

go to the Buffalo competition this winter and I don't want any

surprises. A locked out squat should be a locked out squat anywhere. And

again referring back to the Ontario champs, I saw guys with more forward

lean than me.

If you mean lean at the lockout, I don't lean forward any more than this

guy:

<http://www.ontariopowerlifting.com/images/Guelph00/Deconing.jpg>

If you mean forward lean ever, then I don't get it because I've seen

people who look like they almost go down to parallel with their backs

(and some guys who get their heads ripped off doing it).

> I still stand by my original statement, that this theory does not hold

> for those with a disproportionately larger deadlift than squat,

> seeking improvement in their squat.

>

> Warmest regards,

>

> The Phantom

And I still don't buy it and say that they don't have to be the same but

unless you are in the poundage where human gripping ability becomes an

issue, you should be reasonably close or you should be looking at more

than muscular imbalances.

I know I won't convince you but I'm just trying to defend the good morning.

Good luck,

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

[Guest guest]

I'd like to interject a couple of comments into this argument, as someone

who has seen lift and still supports the points Dmitry has made here,

which I essentially think is right on the money. My comments are inline.

Dmitry wrote,

>I didn't compare you to a chimp I said that's the makeup that - no

>matter how much experience - would have a much larger deadlift than

>squat. IPF is no different from anyone else. Legal is below parallel

>(1mm or .5m, the rest is up to the judge). I just went to the Ontario

>championships where 2 international judges were present and they were

>passing just below parallel squats.

***First, I didn't think Dmitry called a chimp. Second, is not

built like a chimp. OTOH, and I are the same height and roughly the

same weight and her waist is much higher than mine. I have a 32 " inseam, so

I don't have short legs. So while has long legs and also fairly long

arms (which are still proportional and tend to fit the image of the Nordic

blonde look as opposed to the orangutan look) she is quite short in the

upper body. This reduces her back lever and gives her some oomph in her

pull as a result.

>

Dmitry wrote,

>Also, width of your stance is not what determines which muscles you're

>using. The easiest way to see is how your shin moves. A quadricep

>squatter brings his knees forward. A hamstring squatter keeps his knees

>behind the laces. Since you use a heel and have big femurs, I imagine

>your knees come forward quite a bit making you a quad squatter.

*** is a quad squatter (although I dislike that term, but I know what

you're getting at), without question. I do feel she would be better served

relearning her squat and sitting back more, although she might disagree

with me here. In all fairness has some injuries, but since they are

knee injuries I feel this supports my contention she should relearn her

squat. Put another way - it worked for me. I used to squat similiar to

and now I'm pretty much a Westside stylist.

>

wrote,

>

>> A good morning IS a test of back strength. I do not see where it will

>> aid a deep squatter as required by IPF rules and judging now.

Dmitry replied,

>

>NO it is NOT. It is a test of posterior chain strength. Try a maximal

>goodmorning and then tell me what hurts. Since you are a quad squatter,

>it won't help you to the extent which it helps me but it will still

>help. Your hamstrings and your butt still have to be strong since you're

>not doing bodybuilding squats (feet together, upright back).

Point for Dmitry. has been at Supertraining camps and Dr. Siff

hammered home the point at the one i was at that movements should be

thought of (by athletes) in terms of the joints affected, not as 'working

a muscle'. I'm suprised didn't pick up on this as her background

should make her very aware of how interconnected movements are.

>

wrote,

>> And my deadlift is conventional...so in theory, my squat " should " be

>> stronger if back strength were a sole determination. I think that my

>> conventional pull also might rule out really weak hamstrings too......

>> as does that SLDL set I can perform...

>

Dmitry replied,

>You're probably right. But I imagine you could still get away with it if

>you had a very strong back and butt relative to your hams. And once

>again, stiff leg deadlifts don't stress the hamstrings as much as the

>goodmorning (assuming you keep the bar close to your legs - which you

>don't as I read further down). If you want a hamstring test, try some

>glute ham raises.

***I think hamstring and hip strength is an issue. pulls strongly

with her lower back. Her hips rise considerably out of the hole with very

little bar movement for the corresponding hip movement. Then her lower back

takes over and, due to the shortness of her back and her considerable

strength, gravity generally loses. Her dive technique maximizes the strethc

reflex, but I would encourage her to watch a video from the side and break

it into frames. I suspect she would see her hips rise at a rate almost

twice what the bar rises until her legs are almost straight and then her

back takes over. I'm going by memory and could be wrong, but I thought her

style was very close to a Vince Anello/ Kuc/Lamar Gant type of

deadlift. And thats pretty good company to be in, even though that style

has fallen out of favour somewhat.

So, due to her technique I don't think it holds her back in the deadlift,

if her hips and hamstrings are brought up somewhat and she learns to sit

into the squat I think she could be quite a bit stronger in the squat. Once

again, in fairness to , she has expert coaches and I could well be

wrong. Also she is a passionate deadlifter and if the squat held back her

progress in the deadlift or slowed it down she may well say " To heck with

the squat! "

>

wrote,

>

>> Also, with regard to your comment about long femurs and the

>> deadlift....there were two other 198'ers, male, in Colorado, with the

>> same short waisted, long femured build...and one was pulling 680 and

>> missing 705 using just a belt and singlet. the other was my mullet

>> who did a 501 deadlift in his first meet, after only 3 months of

>> training. It should have been 550, and he likely would have gone on

>> to pull around the 700 mark had he not decided to quit serious

>> training. The one thing I will say is long femurs, in proportion to

>> calves, is a bad idea if you're trying SUMO. but for conventional it

>> can apparently be an advantage, probably linked to height in some way

>> too though.

Long femurs is no advantage, but a short back is.

Dmitry wrote,

>

>I'm not saying it's impossible to be strong. Chuck Vogelpohl is not

>built to squat. Matt Dimel was not built to deadlift (maybe at some

>point he was...some 200lb ligher point). Nuff said. I'm talking about

>physics. Long femurs are a disadvantage in the deadlift, no matter how

>you pull. It's better for sumo, because you can pull your knees apart and

>take some of that leverage disadvantage away. A deadlifting build is

>what I described before, a chimp. Knuckle dragging arms, tiny legs,

>short torso.

wrote,

>> The only application I can see is if I get on the front of my feet,

>> i.e. am out of balance leaning forward, and must somehow back up the

>> squat to finish the lift. I do however, squat with my weight on my

>> heels and use my legs to drive it up. If I get forward with a high

>> bar position, I am likely to find the bar up the neck and not be able

>> to recover the lift and use what is a good morning position to bring

>> the bar to lockout. I would also like to add here that IPF/USAPL

>> requires a more upright squat than some federations, where perhaps

>> they can use a more good morning approach as well as far wider stance.

I don't see this at all. Burnell and myself both use a wide stance

squat and have no problem meeting IPF standards for depth. I agree that

some federations allow higher squats. I also agree that if the judges are

calling for a very low squat I generally bring my feet in an inch or two to

achieve it. But my normal stance is 36 " between the heels on a person with

a 32 " inseam. Which is wide.

Dmitry wrote,

>

>If you squat with your posterior chain, you will never face this

>problem. Same with the deadlift. If a deadlifter with proper form lets

>the bar go, he should fall backwards, not forward (ok, if he falls at all).

I disagree. Its depends on the lifter. There is no way Kuc or Vince

Anello would have fallen backwards. uses excellent deadlift form,

whether Westside approves or not. It is probably not the best form for all

lifters, but it works well for her.

>

Dmitry wrote,

>Also, please enlighten me about the IPF/USAPL thing because I intend to

>go to the Buffalo competition this winter and I don't want any

>surprises. A locked out squat should be a locked out squat anywhere. And

>again referring back to the Ontario champs, I saw guys with more forward

>lean than me.

There is a perception that IPF calls for too low a squat. I find the IPF

standard to be consistent with the CPU standard we face here. I can't speak

regarding other organizations as the only other one I've lifted in the

drug-free here and it seemed about the same to me.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

[Guest guest]

I agree with your comments, , I just wanted to clarify one point...

Hobman wrote:

> Dmitry wrote,

> >

> >If you squat with your posterior chain, you will never face this

> >problem. Same with the deadlift. If a deadlifter with proper form lets

> >the bar go, he should fall backwards, not forward (ok, if he falls at

> all).

>

> I disagree. Its depends on the lifter. There is no way Kuc or Vince

> Anello would have fallen backwards. uses excellent deadlift form,

> whether Westside approves or not. It is probably not the best form for

> all lifters, but it works well for her

I know, I didn't mean that everyone with proper form should fall

backwards, that's why I added the comment in the brackets. IF you fall

down at all, you should fall back. In this case, you should just stand up.

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada