Re: Why do my fermented blueberries have no flavor?!

[Guest guest]

n-

The only theory I can think of is that I leave out the calcium water and

other stuff from the syrup recipe in NT. I just run the blueberries

through a food processor, then add a little salt, some whey, and sometimes

some water.

>Why did you all get such completely opposite

>results from me when fermenting blueberries? What might I be doing

>wrong?

-

[Guest guest]

Actually, NT says to not use calcium water in the syrup. It sounds

like the two things you do differently from the book are to process

the berries instead of mash and to leave out the sugar. Maybe I'll

try it that way next time I do it.

I was hoping someone had a guess about the chemistry of what factors

might make

flavor/sweetness in fruit convert to alcohol. I get the impression

from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so perhaps

the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

kitchen is more like 80F.

Any thoughts anyone?

n

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> n-

>

> The only theory I can think of is that I leave out the calcium

water and

> other stuff from the syrup recipe in NT. I just run the

blueberries

> through a food processor, then add a little salt, some whey, and

sometimes

> some water.

>

> >Why did you all get such completely opposite

> >results from me when fermenting blueberries? What might I be doing

> >wrong?

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/28/03 7:54:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

emailforerinn@... writes:

> I was hoping someone had a guess about the chemistry of what factors

> might make

> flavor/sweetness in fruit convert to alcohol.

Yes-- fermenting.

I get the impression

> from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so perhaps

> the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> kitchen is more like 80F.

> Any thoughts anyone?

If you don't want alcohol, you need exposure to oxygen. If you don't have

any, you'll get more alochol. If you have oxygen, you'll get acetic acid

instead.

But either way the sugar ferments, decreasing the sweetness. If you want

them sweet, you just have to ferment them less.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>I get the impression

>> from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so perhaps

>> the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

>> kitchen is more like 80F.

>> Any thoughts anyone?

I put fruit juice in with a kefir grain ... it makes some alcohol

and lots of lactic acid. Kefir seems to have the right combo

of bacteria and yeast so you don't get acetic acid or too

much alcohol. I haven't tried it with whole fruit -- my experiments

with whole fruit fermentation just haven't been all that

appetizing.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Next time I make this, if it's still warm weather, I'm going to try

just leaving it out just overnight.

What mystifies me is that I thought that the fermentation would make

a product high in lactic acid, and if I fermented it longer, it would

be a sort of a blueberry wine (and then after exposing it to air, it

becomes blueberry vinegar). But wine has flavor from the fruit and

(if it's not dry) sweetness and doesn't smell like like rubbing

alcohol.

I used a weck jar with rubber ring between jar and glass lid, and the

clamps, so I don't think air could get in, but I wonder if it's the

acetic acid you mentioned and that would explain why it's not like

wine? Especially since I tried it tonight and it has a burny taste,

so strong I don't think I could have gotten rid of it by " airing it

out. " I don't think so though, since it's not like vinegar. It sort

of seems chemical, not food-like.

I'm finding ways to use it up where

the weird taste doesn't cause much of a problem, rather than throwing

out expensive berries, but I'm starting to wonder is this not

actually nutritious? Or is harmful even?

n

> In a message dated 9/28/03 7:54:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> emailforerinn@a... writes:

>

> > I was hoping someone had a guess about the chemistry of what

factors

> > might make

> > flavor/sweetness in fruit convert to alcohol.

>

> Yes-- fermenting.

>

> I get the impression

> > from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so

perhaps

> > the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> > kitchen is more like 80F.

> > Any thoughts anyone?

>

> If you don't want alcohol, you need exposure to oxygen. If you

don't have

> any, you'll get more alochol. If you have oxygen, you'll get

acetic acid

> instead.

>

> But either way the sugar ferments, decreasing the sweetness. If

you want

> them sweet, you just have to ferment them less.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Hmmm... I'll try making berry syrup with kefir grains.

Maybe fruit is trickier to ferment successfully when whole, for some

reason.

n

>

> >I get the impression

> >> from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so

perhaps

> >> the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> >> kitchen is more like 80F.

> >> Any thoughts anyone?

>

> I put fruit juice in with a kefir grain ... it makes some alcohol

> and lots of lactic acid. Kefir seems to have the right combo

> of bacteria and yeast so you don't get acetic acid or too

> much alcohol. I haven't tried it with whole fruit -- my experiments

> with whole fruit fermentation just haven't been all that

> appetizing.

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I tried some figs (quartered). They came out vinegary. They were interesting,

but not what I had planned on. Nobody else liked them, couldn't give them away.

Amy

Re: Why do my fermented blueberries have no

flavor?!

Heidi,

Hmmm... I'll try making berry syrup with kefir grains.

Maybe fruit is trickier to ferment successfully when whole, for some

reason.

n

>

> >I get the impression

> >> from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so

perhaps

> >> the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> >> kitchen is more like 80F.

> >> Any thoughts anyone?

>

> I put fruit juice in with a kefir grain ... it makes some alcohol

> and lots of lactic acid. Kefir seems to have the right combo

> of bacteria and yeast so you don't get acetic acid or too

> much alcohol. I haven't tried it with whole fruit -- my experiments

> with whole fruit fermentation just haven't been all that

> appetizing.

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

te:

>Heidi,

>

>Hmmm... I'll try making berry syrup with kefir grains.

>

>Maybe fruit is trickier to ferment successfully when whole, for some

>reason.

>

>n

A lot of it depends on the innoculant. We made wine for years,

and some was good, some wasn't! But yeast and bacteria do VERY

different things. If you use whatever happens to be on

the berries, you can get mixed results. I tend to think watery things

are easier -- you get less mold problems. We got a lot of molds when

we did berry wines, if we weren't careful, and a tiny bit of mold

REALLY tastes weird. Threw off the taste of several gallons of wine.

For best results, use a watery mix, and add kefir grains (they are the

Borg of bacteria -- they assimilate or kill everyone else). Or some

kind of yeast. You can get a good yeast culture going heartily in

flour or sugar water, then add it to your good expensive stuff.

Whey is supposed to be good, but I never had much luck with it,

maybe because it was from commercial yogurt and they have

wimpy, coddled, upperclass bacteria.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Sally says if your fermenting experiments smell really bad, they have

probably not worked so throw them out. Maybe your berries were infected

with a fungus or unfriendly bacteria. Or could they possibly have come in

contact with pesticides or herbicides?

Joanne

Re: Why do my fermented blueberries have no

flavor?!

>

>

> Next time I make this, if it's still warm weather, I'm going to try

> just leaving it out just overnight.

>

> What mystifies me is that I thought that the fermentation would make

> a product high in lactic acid, and if I fermented it longer, it would

> be a sort of a blueberry wine (and then after exposing it to air, it

> becomes blueberry vinegar). But wine has flavor from the fruit and

> (if it's not dry) sweetness and doesn't smell like like rubbing

> alcohol.

>

> I used a weck jar with rubber ring between jar and glass lid, and the

> clamps, so I don't think air could get in, but I wonder if it's the

> acetic acid you mentioned and that would explain why it's not like

> wine? Especially since I tried it tonight and it has a burny taste,

> so strong I don't think I could have gotten rid of it by " airing it

> out. " I don't think so though, since it's not like vinegar. It sort

> of seems chemical, not food-like.

>

> I'm finding ways to use it up where

> the weird taste doesn't cause much of a problem, rather than throwing

> out expensive berries, but I'm starting to wonder is this not

> actually nutritious? Or is harmful even?

>

> n

>

>

> > In a message dated 9/28/03 7:54:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > emailforerinn@a... writes:

> >

> > > I was hoping someone had a guess about the chemistry of what

> factors

> > > might make

> > > flavor/sweetness in fruit convert to alcohol.

> >

> > Yes-- fermenting.

> >

> > I get the impression

> > > from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so

> perhaps

> > > the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> > > kitchen is more like 80F.

> > > Any thoughts anyone?

> >

> > If you don't want alcohol, you need exposure to oxygen. If you

> don't have

> > any, you'll get more alochol. If you have oxygen, you'll get

> acetic acid

> > instead.

> >

> > But either way the sugar ferments, decreasing the sweetness. If

> you want

> > them sweet, you just have to ferment them less.

> >

> > Chris

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

n,

Rubbing alcohol sounds wierd. It isn't acetic acid, which doesn't

smell like any alcohol to me, and which wouldn't form without air.

If you have yeast, you are going to get either alcohol or acetic acid

(actually you will get alchol either way, but the alcohol will then

be converted to acetic acid mostly if you have the air.

I wonder if something aside from ethanol is actually being produced,

or if you simply have *more* of it than you should.

Chris

> > In a message dated 9/28/03 7:54:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > emailforerinn@a... writes:

> >

> > > I was hoping someone had a guess about the chemistry of what

> factors

> > > might make

> > > flavor/sweetness in fruit convert to alcohol.

> >

> > Yes-- fermenting.

> >

> > I get the impression

> > > from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so

> perhaps

> > > the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> > > kitchen is more like 80F.

> > > Any thoughts anyone?

> >

> > If you don't want alcohol, you need exposure to oxygen. If you

> don't have

> > any, you'll get more alochol. If you have oxygen, you'll get

> acetic acid

> > instead.

> >

> > But either way the sugar ferments, decreasing the sweetness. If

> you want

> > them sweet, you just have to ferment them less.

> >

> > Chris

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Maybe mold is the culprit. If it is, I guess I should definitely

throw it out.

Anyway, I'd like to use kefir as whey made from kefir made from

grains, rather than using the grains themselves. Would that work? Why

does Sally not list kefir as one of the things to make whey and cream

cheese from??

n

> te:

>

> >Heidi,

> >

> >Hmmm... I'll try making berry syrup with kefir grains.

> >

> >Maybe fruit is trickier to ferment successfully when whole, for

some

> >reason.

> >

> >n

>

> A lot of it depends on the innoculant. We made wine for years,

> and some was good, some wasn't! But yeast and bacteria do VERY

> different things. If you use whatever happens to be on

> the berries, you can get mixed results. I tend to think watery

things

> are easier -- you get less mold problems. We got a lot of molds when

> we did berry wines, if we weren't careful, and a tiny bit of mold

> REALLY tastes weird. Threw off the taste of several gallons of wine.

>

> For best results, use a watery mix, and add kefir grains (they are

the

> Borg of bacteria -- they assimilate or kill everyone else). Or some

> kind of yeast. You can get a good yeast culture going heartily in

> flour or sugar water, then add it to your good expensive stuff.

> Whey is supposed to be good, but I never had much luck with it,

> maybe because it was from commercial yogurt and they have

> wimpy, coddled, upperclass bacteria.

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Anyway, I'd like to use kefir as whey made from kefir made from

>grains, rather than using the grains themselves. Would that work? Why

>does Sally not list kefir as one of the things to make whey and cream

>cheese from??

>

>n

Maybe because the kefir list and Dom hadn't invented the concept

yet? I don't know. We have the advantage of at least 10 years

of web synergy, she did most of the book on her own, I think.

I have not tried using just the whey for kefir beer (too much work -- it's easy

to grab an extra grain and mine grow FAST). Once you get

a yeast starter going ( " the dregs " ) you likely don't need the

grains though. They last a long time, I'm still on my first

few though maybe I'll replace them one of these days.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I didn't know there was any concept to invent. I thought you just

leave out cultured milk in a strainer. Is there some special trick I

should know if the way the milk I'm going to use was cultured was by

kefir?

n

>

> >Anyway, I'd like to use kefir as whey made from kefir made from

> >grains, rather than using the grains themselves. Would that work?

Why

> >does Sally not list kefir as one of the things to make whey and

cream

> >cheese from??

> >

> >n

>

> Maybe because the kefir list and Dom hadn't invented the concept

> yet? I don't know. We have the advantage of at least 10 years

> of web synergy, she did most of the book on her own, I think.

>

> I have not tried using just the whey for kefir beer (too much work -

- it's easy

> to grab an extra grain and mine grow FAST). Once you get

> a yeast starter going ( " the dregs " ) you likely don't need the

> grains though. They last a long time, I'm still on my first

> few though maybe I'll replace them one of these days.

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>I didn't know there was any concept to invent. I thought you just

>leave out cultured milk in a strainer. Is there some special trick I

>should know if the way the milk I'm going to use was cultured was by

>kefir?

>

>n

I meant the concept of using kefir for everything under the sun.

No, there's no special concept. But once I discovered I could

use kefir as a one-stop shopping, I don't do anything with

yogurt.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Sally says if your fermenting experiments smell really bad, they

have

> probably not worked so throw them out.

=======> She says if a recipe goes bad, it smells so bad that there's

no way you'd eat it... I assumed she meant spoiling, and this doesn't

smell spoiled, just sort of like it fermented into a kind of crude

alcohol to be used as fuel or something, rather than food! But

perhaps she WOULD include this as one of the smells she thought would

deter people, and I'm weird to try to eat it?!

Maybe your berries were infected

> with a fungus or unfriendly bacteria. Or could they possibly have

come in

> contact with pesticides or herbicides?

=======> I guess it could be a product of some bad microbe or

chemicals, but they were organic and tasted great before fermenting,

and I would hope the lactic acid would take over and " digest "

anything bad.

n

>

> Joanne

> Re: Why do my fermented blueberries

have no

> flavor?!

>

>

> >

> >

> > Next time I make this, if it's still warm weather, I'm going to

try

> > just leaving it out just overnight.

> >

> > What mystifies me is that I thought that the fermentation would

make

> > a product high in lactic acid, and if I fermented it longer, it

would

> > be a sort of a blueberry wine (and then after exposing it to air,

it

> > becomes blueberry vinegar). But wine has flavor from the fruit and

> > (if it's not dry) sweetness and doesn't smell like like rubbing

> > alcohol.

> >

> > I used a weck jar with rubber ring between jar and glass lid, and

the

> > clamps, so I don't think air could get in, but I wonder if it's

the

> > acetic acid you mentioned and that would explain why it's not like

> > wine? Especially since I tried it tonight and it has a burny

taste,

> > so strong I don't think I could have gotten rid of it by " airing

it

> > out. " I don't think so though, since it's not like vinegar. It

sort

> > of seems chemical, not food-like.

> >

> > I'm finding ways to use it up where

> > the weird taste doesn't cause much of a problem, rather than

throwing

> > out expensive berries, but I'm starting to wonder is this not

> > actually nutritious? Or is harmful even?

> >

> > n

> >

> > --- In , ChrisMasterjohn@a...

wrote:

> > > In a message dated 9/28/03 7:54:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > > emailforerinn@a... writes:

> > >

> > > > I was hoping someone had a guess about the chemistry of what

> > factors

> > > > might make

> > > > flavor/sweetness in fruit convert to alcohol.

> > >

> > > Yes-- fermenting.

> > >

> > > I get the impression

> > > > from NT that fruit is very sensitive to over-fermentation, so

> > perhaps

> > > > the problem is that they need to be around 72F and I think my

> > > > kitchen is more like 80F.

> > > > Any thoughts anyone?

> > >

> > > If you don't want alcohol, you need exposure to oxygen. If you

> > don't have

> > > any, you'll get more alochol. If you have oxygen, you'll get

> > acetic acid

> > > instead.

> > >

> > > But either way the sugar ferments, decreasing the sweetness. If

> > you want

> > > them sweet, you just have to ferment them less.

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

> > >

> > >