Re: Re: warrior diet question - how long theundereating ph...

September 25, 2003

In a message dated 9/25/03 2:11:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Sure ... but it is the *addition* of sugar to the diet. Lab rats

> get a lot of wheat. Wheat does weird things to a lot of organs,

> making them more susceptible to lots of things, including

> cancer. Sugar is bad, no doubt about it. But a lab rat that

> has grown up on a normal lab rat diet already has an impaired

> metabolism.

Yes, but the non-sugar portion of the diet was controlled, and clearly if the

sugar displaced the other portions of their diet, they were eating *less*

wheat. So if the rats eating more wheat (I personally don't *know* they were

eating wheat) and less sugar did not get T2 diabetes, and the rats eating LESS

wheat and more sugar DID get T2 diabetes, it seems pretty clear that sugar

contributes to T2 diabetes.

>

> >Moreover, it is more logical that carbs cause insulin resistance,

> >because if the cells are constantly barraged by insulin, they grow

> >resistnat to it. The same thing happens with exposure to man other

> >chemicals; it is a quite universal phenomenon.

>

> It is very logical. However, T2 diabetes is still mainly endemic

> to wheat eating countries, as is obesity (and the two go together).

> How come you get all these rich skinny Japanese? Sally and others

> come up with genetic explanations, but they start getting the

> same problems when they switch to a Western diet. White rice

> SHOULD cause insulin resistance, but the current theory, and

> it should cause overeating. Yet it doesn't seem to.

So Asians don't eat any wheat? I was under the impression, due to the fact

that wheat is used in traditional foods such as miso and soy sauce that they

used wheat. Also, isn't seitan a Thai food?

> Healthy carb eaters eat less, absolutely! Wheat eating carb eaters seem to

> gorge themselves unmercifully. I think that is the problem.

> I think the gliadin interferes with the villi, which are part of the

> mechanism that says " stop eating " .Current modern bread has

> ADDED gluten, so when you eat a big mac you are getting a huge

> gluten load, which allows you to eat TWO big macs.

Maybe, but the rats that get sugar still get the diabetes. So while gluten

might make it worse, I think it's undeniable that sugar contributes, and very

probably that sugar/starch is primarily causal in the case of T2 diabetes.

> We have experimented with several diets in this house, with a

> whole lunch table full of adults. Without fail, when we were on

> a non-wheat diet (Cliff Sheats doesn't allow wheat products for

> the first 5 weeks) everyone ate LESS. They were stuffed. And THAT

> was a low fat diet!

I'm not going to dispute that, but it seems that, while it's a related issue,

it certainly isn't *the* issue with T2 diabetes.

> So yeah, eating too much carb can cause T2 diabetes. But

> what throws the appestat off so much that people gorge

> to that extent? And why does this gorging happen primarily

> in wheat eating countries? It is very, very difficult to get someone

> to gorge if their appestat is working correctly.

>

> So, I have zero lab proof of this, but there is pretty interesting

> epidemiological evidence and interesting " household evidence " .

> The T1 connection has been shown in lab rats and some human

> kids ... the T2 connection remains to be proven but I'm betting

> it will, in the next 5 years or so. Already most of the newer

> " diet " books cut down on wheat products, though they use

> different justifications.

Heidi, gliaden may be a contributor, but lots of other things could be too.

Price noted impaired glucose metabolism to be one of the most common results

of root canals, and I'm sure you could make a good case that diabetes is most

commonly found in countries where root canals are widely performed (which are

probably also the wheat eating countries), and you can trace the increase in

diabetes with the increase in root canals in this country.

But I wouldn't say " I don't think carbs cause insulin resistance, I think

it's root canals. "

I think there are probably a lot of factors that make it worse. One is

clearly the nutrition of the rest of the diet. Part of it is also cultural.

Someone can drink soda all day long and not even realize they are gorging on

sugar-- and it's a different phenomenon from eating sugar and not being able to

stop. Some people just culturally do not drink water, and they grow up thinking

" something to drink " is iced tea, coca cola, lemonade, kool aid, sprite,

whatever.

But the point that rats get diabetes when they eat sugar and less wheat says

something. It would be interesting to compare rats on a wheat-free diet and a

wheat-containing diet that both had high sugar diets but were controlled for

total carb intake (ie. wheat substitiuted with a non-gluten starch).

Chris

September 26, 2003

>>So Asians don't eat any wheat? I was under the impression, due to the fact

that wheat is used in traditional foods such as miso and soy sauce that they

used wheat.

My nephew is in Japan for a year teaching English, in a very small town in

Hokkaido. I thought he'd be eating a lot of fish. But a typical lunch he

gets at school is some sort of pork and vegetable thing (he's not too happy

about some of the unidentifiable meats!), a bowl of clear, salty soup, some

sort of cold mayo/vegetable salad, rice and a carton of milk. He's

mentioned dumplings of various kinds, which I assume are wheat.. pork

dumplings and grilled octopus dumplings! And the prevalence of ramen shops.

-

September 26, 2003

>Yes, but the non-sugar portion of the diet was controlled, and clearly if the

>sugar displaced the other portions of their diet, they were eating *less*

>wheat. So if the rats eating more wheat (I personally don't *know* they were

>eating wheat) and less sugar did not get T2 diabetes, and the rats eating LESS

>wheat and more sugar DID get T2 diabetes, it seems pretty clear that sugar

>contributes to T2 diabetes.

Well, I totally agree that too much carb too fast in the bloodstream

can cause T2 diabetes. My question is, why do Americans gorge so

MUCH compared to other cultures? And why do some other high

carb cultures not have an obesity problem? The obesity thing

(which is decidedly connected to too many carbs and T2 diabetes)

seems directly connected to the amount of wheat/barley in a culture,

at least as far as we have records.

>So Asians don't eat any wheat? I was under the impression, due to the fact

>that wheat is used in traditional foods such as miso and soy sauce that they

>used wheat. Also, isn't seitan a Thai food?

They are eating more and more of it. But it was never so common as now.

Ditto in Thailand. Rice grows a lot better there. Wheat noodles are

taking over now, for the buckwheat and rice noodles they used to

use. It will be another test case! They are also starting to eat

wheat crackers and cakes. It is said to take about 20 years for

the effects to kick in, we'll see what happens.

China: wheat has gone from 10% to 20% of the diet in 40 years:

http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/LUC/ChinaFood/data/diet/diet_6_m.htm

I couldn't find such a nice chart for Japan, but wheat consumption has

gone up 30% in the US and now is about 40% of the diet. I guess sugar

is 20%, so we are 60% junk. Wheat consumption has soared in Japan

too though, and is crowding out rice.

>Maybe, but the rats that get sugar still get the diabetes. So while gluten

>might make it worse, I think it's undeniable that sugar contributes, and very

>probably that sugar/starch is primarily causal in the case of T2 diabetes.

Agreed. I also read where rats that eat " junk food " overeat. So I

wrote and asked what they meant by " junk food " -- usually it means

stuff like hamburgers and Twinkies. My DH used to scarf down a

whole pizza a night. I have NO DOUBT that someday that would

hurt his insulin resistance. The question is: WHY did he feel

the need to scarf down a whole pizza? Why doesn't he feel the

need now? Why would a rice-crust or sorghum-crust pizza

fill you up faster than a wheat crust pizza?

He has access to just as much sugar, and starch.

(I don't have lab rats, I have test-people, but they don't know it).

>I'm not going to dispute that, but it seems that, while it's a related issue,

>it certainly isn't *the* issue with T2 diabetes.

Sure it is. TOO MUCH carb, too fast. If people fill up fast, they

don't eat too much.

I think there are probably a lot of factors that make it worse. One is

>clearly the nutrition of the rest of the diet. Part of it is also cultural.

>Someone can drink soda all day long and not even realize they are gorging on

>sugar-- and it's a different phenomenon from eating sugar and not being able to

>stop. Some people just culturally do not drink water, and they grow up

thinking

> " something to drink " is iced tea, coca cola, lemonade, kool aid, sprite,

>whatever.

Sure they COULD. But in non-wheat eating countries they DON'T. No one

has addressed the appetite issue, which is key here.

It is almost impossible to get a wild animal, eating it's native food,

to gain weight. (as Price noted). It is really difficult to get a normally

skinny person to gain weight either ... if you FORCE them to eat more,

they will gain weight in accordance to the number of calories they

eat. But it is next to impossible to force the food down them, even

if it is pure sugar. If you tubally inject them with enough sugar, they will

likely get diabetes. But they won't eat that much sugar voluntarily.

Our body has a lot of safeguards to keep us from overeating --

overeating is demonstrably bad for a human.

So why are over half of Americans not only overweight, but so

hungry that they just can't resist pure sugar water and tasteless

snacks? I used to be STARVED constantly, and eating constantly.

I did NOT eat junk, I ate nutritious food, and I ate good fats.

All that magically went away when I substituted wheat starch

with sorghum starch. And it has gone away for at least 6 other

people I know.

And there are millions of people eating a high

starch diet that don't have diabetes and are not overweight.

If it was purely a matter of starch/sugar, they would all be

fat and diabetic.

>But the point that rats get diabetes when they eat sugar and less wheat says

>something. It would be interesting to compare rats on a wheat-free diet and a

>wheat-containing diet that both had high sugar diets but were controlled for

>total carb intake (ie. wheat substitiuted with a non-gluten starch).

The question is, how much sugar would a healthy rat (raised from babyhood

on a good diet) eat voluntarily? Sugar may be addictive by itself, but my

experience seems to indicate it isn't -- no one here eats much of it any more.

Eating too much sugar may be a symptom ... like drinking too much water

is a symptom of diabetes.

I think it would make a good experiment, but only if the rats had a choice

of food. If you FORCE them to eat a diet of 30% sugar, then it isn't the

same as the average American, who eats a huge amount of sugar even

when there are good alternatives. I have no doubt that the incidence of

glucose resistance goes up in proportion to the amount of high-glycemic

foods that are eaten.

So WHY do people (and some rats) overeat? It can't just be lack

of nutritious food/fiber ... there are countries where people are living off

white rice, and at least some of the population has access to all the

white rice they want, but they are all skinny, even though they have

horrid health problems from lack of vitamins.

-- Heidi

September 26, 2003

>> skinny person to gain weight either ... if you FORCE them to eat

>more,

>> they will gain weight in accordance to the number of calories they

>> eat. But it is next to impossible to force the food down them, even

>> if it is pure sugar. If you tubally inject them with enough sugar,

>they will

>> likely get diabetes. But they won't eat that much sugar voluntarily.

>> Our body has a lot of safeguards to keep us from overeating --

>> overeating is demonstrably bad for a human.

>

>I think this is *definitely* not true. Carbohydrates have been shown

>again and again to have very little satiety value compared to fat.

>If people are eating *foods* that have lots of carbs, but also some

>fat, then yes, they will stop at some point, and maybe gluten

>interferes with that. But if you feed someone pure sugar, they are

>likely to stop only because the taste is overwhelming, not because

>they get full. If you dissolve that sugar in water and add a little

>flavoring to it, you can get them to drink just as much of it as they

>would water, with no difference in satiety value.

Well, we could debate this in theory all day. I'm not trying to

debate: " That my theory and I'm sticking to it! " It's based on

EXPERIENCE and OBSERVATION of about 8 adults and 2 kids,

plus a lot of email. In theory you everything you said could

be true. I read it and I believed it for years. But in my life:

1. No one who has gone on a truly GF/CF diet and healed

their gut has continued with their ravenous appetite.

2. No restriction of sugar was required, they lost their taste

for it.

3. Countries that eat high carbs but have access to sugar,

but not high amounts of wheat, tend to be skinny.

Therefore I believe that gluten, and to some extent casein,

is/was responsible for their appetite problems.

Sure, there COULD be ton of other reasons. That doesn't explain

my experience, or the experience of others. Actually no one

except the folks who have started the anti-gluten diet believes

it anyway, nor has anyone written it up (the doctors just say,

" well, you dropped all the processed food so of COURSE you

lost your appetite " and don't believe you when you say, no,

that wasn't it at all, we weren't eating processed food before

either), and they are developing appetite suppressant pills

all over the place.

And bears, walruses, whales, and some other animals (esp. cold weather

ones) do store fat naturally. And obviously

my experience isn't PROOF so I say it's just my theory. But

I'm betting that within the next 10 years it does get proven or

at least become common knowledge. So 10 years from now,

if it isn't, I'll buy you a bottle of good wine ... :-)

-- Heidi

September 26, 2003

>> My question is, why do Americans gorge so

MUCH compared to other cultures? And why do some other high

carb cultures not have an obesity problem? <<

I think that there is nothing so deadly as the combination of high carbs and low

fat. In addition, when you say there are other " high carb " cultures that don't

have the levels of obesity and diabetes that we do, I think there are several

factors to consider in looking at that:

One, exercise levels - even just a lot of walking will stabilize blood sugar

metabolism. Americans really are the most sedentary people on earth.

Two, I think your gluten hypothesis has definite merit, but isn't the whole

picture. Still, I would include consumption of large amounts of gluten on this

list.

Three, while carbs may account for a substantial percentage of calories, I can't

believe ANY culture consumes as many carbs on a gram basis as some Americans do.

300 grams a day is, astonishingly, the usual recommended level for a healthy

diet, and many people eat 500 grams or more, daily. I don't believe any of the

" high carb " cultures studied by Dr. Price came even close to this level of carb

intake.

Four, our foods have some additives and properties that are physiologically

addictive. I think the science on this is a bit soft at the moment, but I

honestly believe this is going to turn out to be true.

Five, since going on an extremely low carb, high fat way of eating, I have

noticed that it's VERY difficult to overeat. But low fiber, low fat, low

protein, high carb foods are very " empty " going down, and you can ingest truly

huge amounts with even a momentary feeling of fullness. High carb isn't the only

feature here - it's also hard to overeat on very fibrous foods, even if their

carb count is technically quite high. It is the type of carbs Americans ingest

that make it easy to gorge.

Six, the one that's already been mentioned - that the blood sugar rise/crash of

a high carb meal leads to insatiable hunger shortly after, as blood sugar falls

- and remember, that feeling is triggered not by an absolute low blood sugar but

by the FALL - even if it's falling from sky high to moderately high. So just

checking your blood sugar level won't tell you if you are having a " low blood

sugar " reaction. You need to know what it fell from, as well as what it fell TO,

to understand what affect something had on your blood sugar.

Seven, I also believe there are emotional and phsychological factors in play

here. But as I've gotten older and untangled many of my eating disorder issues,

I've come to realize that, at least for me, those were a minor contributor to

the overall picture. I was amazed when I went on Atkins how many of my supposed

" emotional " issues around food simply evaporated. It really WAS that " hormone

thing " after all! And the most profitable place for me to break the defective

hormone cycle turned out to be carbohydrate consumption (coupled with increasing

healthy fats, an often overlooked and IMO critical component of low carb

success).

Eight, sleep deprivation and exposure to too much artificial light, both of

which disrupt the endocrine system. There are measurable adverse effects on the

endocrine system when even a small amount of sleep is missed - less than 8 hours

and 15 minutes a night was the amount mentioned in one study at the Stanford

Sleep Clinic. How many people get that much sleep? And as to light exposure, in

another study out of Stanford, even a pinpoint of red laser light shining on

someone's back, while the room was otherwise in total darkness and all their

other skin was covered, measurably disrupted endocrine function during sleep.

The connection between sleep deprivation and type 2 diabetes is known and talked

about among sleep researchers. Even people who get what they believe is " plenty "

of sleep, when studied, are found to be suffering from sleep deprivation

symptoms. It's a pervasive problem in the US - I'm not sure about other

countries.

Last would be cultural issues, including the problem that people don't know how,

don't want, and don't have the time and resources, to cook anymore.

So fundamentally, I don't think there is ONE reason, but a group of related

reasons, probably more than I listed here.

Christie

September 26, 2003

>I think that there is nothing so deadly as the combination of high carbs and

low fat. In addition, when you say there are other " high carb " cultures that

don't have the levels of obesity and diabetes that we do, I think there are

several factors to consider in looking at that:

Yes, there are a whole lot of factors. For some of us though, all the factors

just magically went away with a simple dietary change. I don't know that this

would happen for *everyone* -- there just isn't a control group. There is NO ONE

in the US (besides some folks on Atkins that don't use some low-carb products,

and folks that are purposefully on a GF/CF diet) who tests the theory. But the

connection between gluten and appetite is very much obvious to the folks who

HAVE had to do it.

When you say you were on a high carb low fat diet, was it a GF diet? We went on

a high carb low fat diet that didn't include wheat (it allowed wheat, but only

whole wheat and we really disliked whole wheat!). We lost our appetite. The

folks in China and Japan are on a high carb diet (used to be 80% carbs in China,

and very low fat) and even the richer folks aren't fat (though I expect that to

change: I wonder if the Sumo wrestlers eat more noodles and less rice?). No one

that talks about carbs has ever, to my knowledge, tested wheatless carbs, unless

you count the traditional populations of China, Japan, and Africa as a test case

(which so far no one has counted because they also didn't have soda pop).

>One, exercise levels - even just a lot of walking will stabilize blood sugar

metabolism. Americans really are the most sedentary people on earth.

We are very sedentary. A Chinese noblewoman would have been sedentary too (bound

feet) as would an older African. And a lot of the fat folks I see here are in

the exercise clubs, and the farmers. I totally agree it helps though.

>Two, I think your gluten hypothesis has definite merit, but isn't the whole

picture. Still, I would include consumption of large amounts of gluten on this

list.

I doubt it is the whole picture also. I'm not sure how much of the picture it is

though. Gluten damages the organs so much (thyroid and pancreas esp.) that it

throws the whole picture off. We won't know the extent of the damage until we

have a group of " modern " people on wheatless diets. Which is likely to happen in

the near future.

>Three, while carbs may account for a substantial percentage of calories, I

can't believe ANY culture consumes as many carbs on a gram basis as some

Americans do. 300 grams a day is, astonishingly, the usual recommended level for

a healthy diet, and many people eat 500 grams or more, daily. I don't believe

any of the " high carb " cultures studied by Dr. Price came even close to this

level of carb intake.

Much of Asia is living off rice, mostly rice, with a few vegies and some meat

thrown in. We are talking about a diet that is 80% carbs. Granted a lot of them

are also starving, but not all of them, some of them are doing ok otherwise,

just eating a ton of rice. Ditto in Africa, where they live off tons of millet

or maize or yams. (they'd probably love more meat, but they don't get it at the

moment).

The probably don't eat the VOLUME of rice, unless they are very active, but that

fits with my appetite theory. No one has been able to adequately explain (among

the scientists who are studying it) WHY some people overeat and some don't.

There are lots of theories, but no good proof.

>Four, our foods have some additives and properties that are physiologically

addictive. I think the science on this is a bit soft at the moment, but I

honestly believe this is going to turn out to be true.

Absolutely! And one of the issues is leaky gut. Gluten causes the production of

zonulin, which makes the gut leak. Then gluten and casein leak into the blood,

where they form exorphins, which act like opium on the brain. Very, very

addictive. MSG etc. has neurological effects too, but when you look at gluten

and casien, you are looking at more than HALF the SAD. Which makes more than

half the diet addictive, and that part has been well researched since the 70's.

Plus, having a permeable gut membrane means that everything else -- MSG,

chemicals, sugar, and alcohol -- can get into the bloodstream a lot quicker.

Add to that ... the zonulin opens the blood brain barrier too. So the MSG,

chemicals, sugar, and opioids go straight to the brain! We are talking nice and

addictive! Plus since Americans snack all day long (mostly on gluten-containing

snacks), that gut barrier and brain barrier stay open all day. We are walking

zombies.

(The Swiss and Masai ate lots of milk too, but not the gluten. I kind of think

the casein problem is a side issue: if the gut doesn't leak, the casein stays

where it should).

This really isn't considered " soft science " at the moment ... the opioid thing

has been very well researched, but the missing piece has always been " why don't

the membranes keep the opioids OUT? " I think Dr. Fasano has come up with the

answer. Probiotics get in there too -- with the correct bacteria the gut is more

healthy.

>Five, since going on an extremely low carb, high fat way of eating, I have

noticed that it's VERY difficult to overeat. But low fiber, low fat, low

protein, high carb foods are very " empty " going down, and you can ingest truly

huge amounts with even a momentary feeling of fullness. High carb isn't the only

feature here - it's also hard to overeat on very fibrous foods, even if their

carb count is technically quite high. It is the type of carbs Americans ingest

that make it easy to gorge.

I tend to agree on fiber, but have you ever *tried* a low fiber, low fat, no

gluten way of eating? I have (white rice and tapioca bread) and others have, and

it is far more difficult to gorge. Plus they don't give you that " high " so they

tend not to be very appealing in the first place. Again, it's an experiment no

one has done -- everyone ASSUMES that low fiber is the issue, but it is rarely

tested on non-gluten foods (all the experiments I've seen were on white bread

vs. whole wheat bread, and done on wheat-eating students).

>Six, the one that's already been mentioned - that the blood sugar rise/crash of

a high carb meal leads to insatiable hunger shortly after, as blood sugar falls

- and remember, that feeling is triggered not by an absolute low blood sugar but

by the FALL - even if it's falling from sky high to moderately high. So just

checking your blood sugar level won't tell you if you are having a " low blood

sugar " reaction. You need to know what it fell from, as well as what it fell TO,

to understand what affect something had on your blood sugar.

Sure, I agree. We also had a note here from someone whose blood sugar problems

got fixed AFTER going completely GF -- which happens to almost everyone I've

talked to, after some period of time. These are not NT eaters, or high fat

eaters ... most of them still eat junk. But their blood sugar problems stop or

get much less. Again, I don't know the mechanism, but I think it does show that

carbs alone may not be the issue.

>Seven, I also believe there are emotional and phsychological factors in play

here. But as I've gotten older and untangled many of my eating disorder issues,

I've come to realize that, at least for me, those were a minor contributor to

the overall picture. I was amazed when I went on Atkins how many of my supposed

" emotional " issues around food simply evaporated. It really WAS that " hormone

thing " after all! And the most profitable place for me to break the defective

hormone cycle turned out to be carbohydrate consumption (coupled with increasing

healthy fats, an often overlooked and IMO critical component of low carb

success).

Right. And going on Atkins, you not only got rid of carbs, you got rid of most

gluten too. A good test would be to go eat some purified wheat gluten (fake

meat) for a month and see what happens. Gluten effects your hormones big time.

White rice doesn't seem to have that effect on Japanese though. Plus you have

that blood/brain barrier opioid issue ... about half of the folks with major

mental problems are gluten-reactive. So no one can assume yet, that the issue is

carbs, unless you do the experiments to untangle carbs and wheat. There is some

evidence that it is more wheat than carbs. Good fats are absolute, of course!

>Eight, sleep deprivation and exposure to too much artificial light, both of