Re: Re: warrior diet question - how long theundereating p...

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

This seems to directly contradict what you said your experience with gluten

and the appestat was. If you went crazy making gluten-free junk food, and

others continue to buy lots of gluten-free junk food, and you stopped due to the

influence of this group and because you were never much of a junk-food eater in

the first place, then that seems like it could easily be chalked up to

personal development than the gluten.

Moreover, if we're going to use anecdotes, Mercola was grain-free and

sugar-free for years, but never got his sugar cravings to go away, only fighting

them

off with will power, until he started drinking raw cream. It seems a lot of

other people have experiences like that too.

Chris

In a message dated 9/27/03 12:36:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I don't know for sure, but from what people say the usual pattern is to eat

> HIGHER glycemic foods -- i.e. people who don't eat bread much, suddenly

> develop an intense craving for it when they are told they can't have it.

That's

> what I did -- I never baked much, and suddenly I was baking cookies and pies

> right and left, and bread, and ordering boxes and boxes of stuff (I went on a

> noodle binge one month ...). I don't think this helps much ... the SCD has a

> good point, which is that most high-glycemic foods aren't really good for

> your gut. But I still felt better than I had before.

>

> Then I decided that was too much and started going lower and lower carb

> (partly with the influence of this group, and partly because when I was single

I

> ate mostly meat and vegies anyway). I'm not sure what the average is at that

> point though. Some folks get into " home cooking " and some just keep looking

> for GF packaged stuff.

>

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>This seems to directly contradict what you said your experience with gluten

>and the appestat was. If you went crazy making gluten-free junk food, and

>others continue to buy lots of gluten-free junk food, and you stopped due to

the

>influence of this group and because you were never much of a junk-food eater in

>the first place, then that seems like it could easily be chalked up to

>personal development than the gluten.

??? I don't see how that is a contradiction. If I continue eating carbs, or more

carbs, and get better, and others do the same and get better, then I'd guess it

was the gluten that was the problem. It's true I eat fewer carbs NOW, but that

has to do with weight issues, not hunger issues, plus the fact that I really

like steak better. What I found is that crackers without the gluten are kind of

like wine without the alcohol ... they lack appeal after awhile. When I first

went GF, it was so neat to be able to eat a big bowl of pasta without getting

sick off it, it was a novelty. But pasta really is not appealing without the

gluten, which is one reason I think it is a drug (and my pasta REALLY tastes

like wheat pasta, I have 3 non-GF folks at the table who love it).

Further, when I was a " non junk food eater " I still had lots of baked potatoes

and tacos and enchiladas and grits and refried beans and chili (I guess I count

beans and potatoes as vegies in my head). But the only times I gained weight

were when I lived with other people, which was when we had bread and pasta -- I

never bought it much for myself, though it wasn't a conscious decision esp.

>Moreover, if we're going to use anecdotes, Mercola was grain-free and

>sugar-free for years, but never got his sugar cravings to go away, only

fighting them

>off with will power, until he started drinking raw cream. It seems a lot of

>other people have experiences like that too.

Sure, lack of fats or whatever is a big deal. But it isn't a contradiction ... a

lot of people have lacks of x or y, ESPECIALLY people who are gluten intolerant,

who generally have very impaired absorption and have lack of calcium, B

vitamins, K, and iron deficiency. Most of the symptoms of gluten intolerance are

either auto-immune diseases or vitamin/mineral deficiencies or bacterial

overgrowth -- the intolerance itself causes no or few symptoms, seemingly. My

joint pain didn't go away until I started taking B vitamins (which I read on

this list, thank you somebody!) but I don't see that as a contradiction at all.

-- Heidi

>Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/27/03 3:23:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> ??? I don't see how that is a contradiction. If I continue eating carbs, or

> more carbs, and get better, and others do the same and get better, then I'd

> guess it was the gluten that was the problem.

Depending on what " problem " you are talking about... you were saying that

carb cravings are caused by gluten, but you said you went crazy making carby

junk

foods when you got off gluten. Your symptoms may have gone away, so those

were obviously due to the gluten-- however, if your carb addiction didn't stop,

but only stopped later when you made a conscious decision to stop

carb-binging, then that's hardly an argument that gluten causes carb cravings.

It's true I eat fewer carbs NOW, but that has to do with weight issues, not

hunger

> issues, plus the fact that I really like steak better. What I found is that

> crackers without the gluten are kind of like wine without the alcohol ...

> they lack appeal after awhile. When I first went GF, it was so neat to be able

> to eat a big bowl of pasta without getting sick off it, it was a novelty. But

> pasta really is not appealing without the gluten, which is one reason I

> think it is a drug (and my pasta REALLY tastes like wheat pasta, I have 3

non-GF

> folks at the table who love it).

>

> Further, when I was a " non junk food eater " I still had lots of baked

> potatoes and tacos and enchiladas and grits and refried beans and chili (I

guess I

> count beans and potatoes as vegies in my head). But the only times I gained

> weight were when I lived with other people, which was when we had bread and

> pasta -- I never bought it much for myself, though it wasn't a conscious

> decision esp.

So you're weight gain may have been gluten-induced... but what you were

saying before, as I understood it, was that carb-induced problems are indirectly

caused by gluten because gluten causes people to eat more carbs, and if they

don't eat the gluten, they won't have the desire for all the carbs. Isn't that

what you were saying?

>

>

> >Moreover, if we're going to use anecdotes, Mercola was grain-free and

> >sugar-free for years, but never got his sugar cravings to go away, only

> fighting them

> >off with will power, until he started drinking raw cream. It seems a lot

> of

> >other people have experiences like that too.

>

> Sure, lack of fats or whatever is a big deal. But it isn't a contradiction

> ... a lot of people have lacks of x or y, ESPECIALLY people who are gluten

> intolerant, who generally have very impaired absorption and have lack of

> calcium, B vitamins, K, and iron deficiency. Most of the symptoms of gluten

intolerance are either auto-immune diseases or

> vitamin/mineral deficiencies or bacterial overgrowth -- the intolerance

> itself causes no or few symptoms, seemingly. My joint pain didn't go away

until

> I started taking B vitamins (which I read on this list, thank you somebody!)

> but I don't see that as a contradiction at all.

The point is that people can have sugar cravings without eating gluten! I'm

not and haven't been contradicting you that gluten may cause the appestat to

be thrown off, but I'm simply pointing out that this is clearly only one of

several possible contributors to carb addiction, food cravings, etc.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Depending on what " problem " you are talking about... you were saying that

>carb cravings are caused by gluten, but you said you went crazy making carby

junk

>foods when you got off gluten. Your symptoms may have gone away, so those

>were obviously due to the gluten-- however, if your carb addiction didn't stop,

>but only stopped later when you made a conscious decision to stop

>carb-binging, then that's hardly an argument that gluten causes carb cravings.

Ah. I guess I didn't explain myself well. I don't think I've ever been " carb

addicted " -- I was constantly hungry and ate too much if I let myself, but I was

also on a pretty strict portion-controlled plan. I was aversive (and still am)

to a lot of carb foods, so I didn't deal much with breads etc. if I could help

it.

When I went GF, I suddenly started baking bread and making cookies and buying

lots of carb stuff. My portion controlled diet didn't change much, except that

now I was working harder to find/make the ingredients. I did start eating bread

again, sometimes, and pasta, mainly because I COULD (some of the aversions

stopped). But it wasn't what I'd call " binging " .

Over the next year or so I was able to go from 6 meals a day to 3, and my blood

sugar stabilized a lot, and the constant hunger gradually got a LOT less. Which

was when I decided I'd like to lose some weight, and I started cutting back

carbs and experimenting with how to make one meal LAST. I was already eating a

fair amount of fat and protein (I usually have, except when on a diet). The

lower carbs may have helped, but what REALLY helped was this WD. Which obviously

isn't a gluten issue of itself, though I think it does help the gut heal.

>So you're weight gain may have been gluten-induced... but what you were

>saying before, as I understood it, was that carb-induced problems are

indirectly

>caused by gluten because gluten causes people to eat more carbs, and if they

>don't eat the gluten, they won't have the desire for all the carbs. Isn't that

>what you were saying?

Right. In my diet now I eat a lot less FOOD, period. I get full faster. I

regulated my diet usually, before, so I didn't wind up at 400 lbs and diabetic,

but if I could have eaten what I wanted I'd eat 4 cups of pasta at a sitting,

plus sauce and meatballs to match. Or a 16 oz steak and a whole baked potato. It

wasn't carb binging though, just sheer hunger and no stop button. Now I tell

myself " eat whatever you want " and I eat, say, 6 oz of chicken, half a potato

with butter, and some carrots. Then I stop because I'm stuffed. I still eat

carbs, but they are in an amount that makes sense for the amount of energy I

need. So I think, the amount of carbs doesn't matter IF your appestat works

correctly.

Now, if I had not been so self-controlled and obsessive, with all that hunger, I

would have been snacking on cookies all day, and crackers, and etc. and

eventually have wound up with T2 diabetes, I'm sure! Actually when I was

pregnant I just ate whatever I could and that is when I really started having

problems. Needless to say a lot of it was high-gluten food (mainly good

whole-grain crackers, not really " junk " in most people's ideals).

>The point is that people can have sugar cravings without eating gluten! I'm

>not and haven't been contradicting you that gluten may cause the appestat to

>be thrown off, but I'm simply pointing out that this is clearly only one of

>several possible contributors to carb addiction, food cravings, etc.

I agree totally. A person can crave anything for any of many reasons. My point

is simply that carbs OF THEMSELVES may not be the issue -- which in Mercola's

case, was clearly true. He craved sugar, but needed cream?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/28/03 1:23:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I agree totally. A person can crave anything for any of many reasons. My

> point is simply that carbs OF THEMSELVES may not be the issue -- which in

> Mercola's case, was clearly true. He craved sugar, but needed cream?

Right, but had he obeyed his sugar cravings (which he didn't) and ended up

with T2 diabetes, it would be the carbs that woulda dunnit. I think it's normal

to crave sugar if you don't have enough fat.

If you are saying carbs aren't evil, I agree.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Right, but had he obeyed his sugar cravings (which he didn't) and ended up

>with T2 diabetes, it would be the carbs that woulda dunnit. I think it's

normal

>to crave sugar if you don't have enough fat.

>

>If you are saying carbs aren't evil, I agree.

>

>Chris

That IS basically all I'm saying. This discussion started with the

assertion that a higher-carb warrior diet was a recipe for T2

diabetes. Which I disagree with (unless, perhaps, as you point out,

many of the carbs are straight sugar). I don't think carbs cause

diabetes unless

a. There are way too many of them for the amount of calories

needed by the person (appestat out of whack, ala gluten problems,

lack of fat, lack of nutrients, whatever -- a healthy person does NOT

overeat willingly).

b. They are way too quickly assimilated (ALA rats and sugar water).

c. There is some other problem with the endocrine system (which

I believe gluten causes, though certainly there can be others).

I tend to focus on gluten because that's what I've been studying ...

I haven't had any great problems with sugar and don't like things

very sweet. But I don't think my eating hashbrowns on the WD is

going to give me T2 diabetes, or wreck my blood sugar, and I

think a large portion of humanity eats carbs without wrecking

THEIR blood sugar or having weight problems. (but a lot of

people feel better not eating carbs, which they certainly can do

also).

Anyway, I think we are basically in agreement?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> That IS basically all I'm saying. This discussion started with the

assertion that a higher-carb warrior diet was a recipe for T2

diabetes. <<

I do just want to clarify, if you mean my original comment, I actually said that

going throughout the day without eating and then having one big meal was a

recipe for INSULIN RESISTANCE. The carb discussion came later.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>>> That IS basically all I'm saying. This discussion started with the

>assertion that a higher-carb warrior diet was a recipe for T2

>diabetes. <<

>

>I do just want to clarify, if you mean my original comment, I actually said

that going throughout the day without eating and then having one big meal was a

recipe for INSULIN RESISTANCE. The carb discussion came later.

>

>Christie

You are correct, we extrapolated ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/28/03 8:21:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Anyway, I think we are basically in agreement?

Yes.

The Warrior Diet has changed the way I look at carbs a bit. First of all, I

now consider it favorable to beef up my glycogen storage. Since I'm combining

carb-eating with deliberate glycogen-exhaustion during the day, this

controlled approach directed at glycogen-storage seems it will be likely to do

just

that, rather than give me insulin or fat problems.

Second, it makes sense to me that if the schedule by which you eat makes such

a big difference with insulin, that it is too complex to say that the exact

amount of carbs is the determinant of insulin problems.

And you are definitely right that some high-carb folks don't get diabetes, so

there is more to it than carbs. Any disagreement might have been my

misunderstanding your emphasis of gluten to mean that gluten was primarily

causal at

the expense of other possible causes.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>The Warrior Diet has changed the way I look at carbs a bit. First of all, I

>now consider it favorable to beef up my glycogen storage. Since I'm combining

>carb-eating with deliberate glycogen-exhaustion during the day, this

>controlled approach directed at glycogen-storage seems it will be likely to do

just

>that, rather than give me insulin or fat problems.

I think that's part of the key right there ... USING UP the glycogen.

I'm beginning to look on my " old life " like being a stuffed

sausage ... eat eat eat, never use use use. If all your glycogen stores

are full, and you stuff in more sugar, where is it supposed to go?

It turns into fat eventually, but it's got to be a strain on the system.

When I was on a low-cal diet once I was always LOW on

glycogen, and really crashed if I missed a meal. I like the idea of

having some handy and available too. I think the 4 lbs or so you

lose when going on a low-cal diet the first week is all glycogen.

And it comes back real fast after one piece of pie, which is so

disheartening.

-- Heidi