wheat germ oil vs. palm oil for vitamin E (was Cod Liver Oil)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/21/03 1:49:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> >>>Also, wheat germ oil does not contain the full spectrum of

tocotrienols--

> it

> contains miniscule quantities of alpha and beta tocotrienols, and does not

> contain gamma and delta tocotrienols at all.

>

> ---->where did you get that info? according to standard process their

wheat

> germ oil contains the complete vitamin E complex.

>>> Enig's book. Wheat germ oil has the full spectrum of tocopherols,

but

not tocotrienols.

----->ok, i'm looking at her book now...and i see she lists a " typical

profile " for wheatgerm oil in which she includes alpha and beta tocotrienol,

but doesn't mention the others. either her data is not correct or standard

process is lying, or at least being misleading. i wonder if her data on

wheat germ oil is from the USDA database as is much of the other data in her

book? if so, that casts a doubt on it's accuracy. but it's really hard to

tell without knowing the sample count and perhaps the processing and testing

methods, as i'd imagine quite a bit of vit e could possibly be damaged in

the processing, for example. oh well, i can't find much else on the web...oh

wait! here we go. here's a chart on the tocopherol and tocotrienol content

of various oils on http://www.tocotrienol.org/sources.htm

they seem to have somewhat different #s than mary enig, although they don't

show WGO containing any gamma or delta tocotrienol. their figure for beta

tocotrieonl is significantly higher in WGO than mary's though. and

interestingly, their data show that one sample of palm oil is missing 3(!)

of the tocopherols and one of the tocotrienols AND having only 1/3 the total

vit. E as wheatgerm oil. so that palm oil sample only has *half* of the vit.

E complex. another sample shows palm oil missing 2 tocopherols and 1

tocotrienol, and the third one missing one tocopherol. so, this data

suggests that NONE of the palm oils or WGO tested contain the full vitamin E

complex. and the wheat germ oil here has 165 times the *beta* tocotrienol of

2 of the palm oil samples and 5x the third palm oil, although this sample

definitely lacks gamma and delta tocotreinol. and of course wheat germ oil

completely outstrips ALL the other oils in terms of alpha tocopherol. i

wonder if *any* of these forms can be used in the antioxidant network, or if

only some of them can be recycled by vitamin c, or what. would be

interesting to know.

interestingly too, the author writes that you'd have to take a fairly large

quantity of any of these oils in order to acheive the beneficial effects

attributed to tocotrienols in various studies, this includes 1 *cup* of palm

oil. however, that could be marketing hype since they are selling mixed

complex vit E supps.

> >>>>On the other hand, red palm oil is

> very, very high in all of the tocotrienols.

>

> ---->how much is " very, very high " ? all i have found is on the TT website

> that gives a parts per million graph, but i'm not sure how that compares

to

> other sources in terms of ppm. wheat germ oils is 65% vitamin E by weight.

> i'd guess that's higher than 1200 ppm (for palm oil)?

>>>>145 mg per kg of alpha tocotrienol, 32 mg per kg of beta, 286 mg per kg

of

gamma, and 69 per kg of delta.

Wheat germ oil, comparatively, has 26 mg/kg of alpha, and 18 mg/kg of beta,

with no gamma or delta tocotrienols, according to KYF.

---->right - according to mary's data, but the data on the tocotrienol site

is different. i guess the only way we'd get a better picture of this is if

we could find a study with a large sample size, and one that used the same

processing for both types of oil. as far as i can tell, they both look good,

each having its weakness and strength. i'm not at all disputing that palm

oil isn't a good source of vitamin e, i just don't agree with your assertion

that wheatgerm oil is a waste of money, especially based on one data point

(mary's book) without know the sample size or source of her data.

>>>>Especially when you consider that the palm oil is clearly more

advantageous

of a form of vitamin E, since it has a balanced spectrum,

---->apparently not, according to the source i just posted. 2 of the 3 palm

oil sources had a LESS balanced spectrum than WGO. but again, there seems to

be a wide variance in the compounds found in the three palm oil sources, so

it's really hard to tell what a typical spectrum would be. i'd guess the

testing method would be another variable that needs to be taken into account

in regards to accurate measurements.

if someone *wants* to replace other

> oils in their diet, then palm oil would probably be a better bet than

wheat

> germ oil, though. another thing, i don't think i'm actually getting enough

> LA in my diet and i know this tiny raisin-sized drop of wheatgerm oil is

not

> much, but maybe i can get a smidgeon of LA from it. in terms of PUFA

though,

> it's quite insignifcant. volume-wise, i'm going to be taking about about

48x

> more CLO than wheatgerm oil, so that's obviously of *much* more concern in

> terms of PUFA intake. maybe i'll up the wheatgerm oil though so the ratio

is

> close to 24x.

I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but I have no choice as to question your

value since I don't have the bottle in front of me. I find it hard to

believe

a 500 mg capsule or one of similar size of wheat germ oil can have such a

high vitamin E value for several reasons.

------->well, i read it wrong. LOL. it has 385 *mgs* (not *IUs*) per perle.

however, my statement was just a guess, without doing the math. after doing

the math i see that my ratio of CLO to WGO will be approx. 31:1.

>>>>1) I read a Standard Process article a year ago that I believe you

linked

to-- not SP itself but Clayton Better Health Center-- and they claimed that

their

SP vitamin E capsules had 8 IU per capsule. Are you sure the bottle lists

the amount as per capsule, and not as per some other amount?

---->yes, per " perle " but it's mgs, not IUs.

2) According to <A

HREF= " http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80734e/80734E05.htm " >ch02c</A> ,

alpha-tocopheral conversion factor from mg to IU is

1.49. I had trouble understanding how to use their other factors for other

vitamin E portions due to the way they were listed, but I got the impression

that

all the other portions of vitamin E have *less* of a conversion factor. So

if we use 1.49 for *all* of the spectrum with Enig's information, wheat

germ oil around 4 IU per gram.

---->so there are 1.49 IUs in 1 mg? if i'm understanding that correctly,

then the SP WGO has 573 IUs vitamin E per perle. the thing is that WGO is

THE richest source of vitamin E (total count) compared to all other oils in

the data i've seen, so i'm not sure why it's hard to believe that there

could be 400 or so mgs or IUs in a perle..?

>>>But anyway, even if the conversion factor is misunderstood, it remains

that

palm oil as 44% by mass the vitamin E of wheat germ oil. In addition it is

loaded with carotenes and doesn't have tons of pufa.

----->neither does a raisin-sized capsule of WGO which contains approx 5-6

*drops* of oil. i know because i open them up to drip onto my dog's food and

i squeeze till the last drop! LOL. no it doesn't have the carotenes that

palm oil does (chock one up for palm oil) but it may have other beneficial

compounds that we're not aware of.

>>>>>Wheat germ oil is 60% LA.

Maybe you are deficient in LA, but I wouldn't simply assume it because you

don't eat grains and nuts, if you are. LA is in butter, meat, etc, even

when

it's grass-fed.

---->in very small quantities...

>>>> n-3s dominate grass, but it's only about 60% n-3s. Since you

should have plenty of DGLA and AA from other foods, it seems like anyone's

LA

should be met with most foods.

----->i didn't think that AA and DGLA could be converted back to LA - can

they? or maybe i did read that recently...it sounds vaguely familiar...but

wouldn't you need to have efficient D5D activity? and how efficient is the

overall conversion process? does a large amount of EPA and DHA interefere

with it?

>>>Palm oil is probably one of the or the best source of carotenes to, so if

you

used a little bit every day you could save some big bucks on wheat germ oil

and the carotene supplement you're taking, no?

---->my wheatgerm oil only costs $6 for 60 perles. my carotenoid supplement

has a wide (full?) spectrum of carotenoids, so if palm oil has a really wide

spectrum it's possible it could cover both bases. however, if the data in

the link i posted is correct, it could be missing parts (perhaps significant

parts) of the vitamin E complex. but then WGO seems to be missing 2

tocotrienols, as well.

> >>>IOW, I don't see any reason at all to consume wheat germ oil.

----->this is the only thing i'm disputing. you've continued to knock WGO as

a vitamin E source, but i don't see that it's justified. i don't think

either one of us has sufficient data on the vit E profile of either oil to

state definitively that one or the other is a waste of $ or that there's no

reason to consume it. certainly mary's data alone is clearly not enough info

to go on, and i'd imagine neither is the TT info on palm oil. i do agree

however, that palm oil seems to be the best source of tocotrienols as

compared to most other oils. however, whether or not the tocotrienols it

contains outweigh the extraordinary amount of tocopherols in WGO seems

debatable to me.

>>>>>Besides, I've already made the point to *you* but somone else was

asking a

question about what they should do to prevent lipid peroxidation with their

fish

oil, and now they've benefited from two points of view and can buy whatever

the heck they want.

---->right, but i'm not disputing your recommendation of palm oil. i think

it's good to have more than one suggestion, and i agree that it seems like

decent source of vitamin E. the only thing i'm disputing, again, is your

assertion that palm oil is the only reasonable food source of vitamin E and

that WGO is a waste of $. think they are both reasonable sources.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

To anyone who is interested in the astounding cost-comparison figures

of wheat germ oil and palm oil, please scroll down passed some initial

discussion to the part outlined in asterisks.

Suze,

> interestingly too, the author writes that you'd have to take a

fairly large

> quantity of any of these oils in order to acheive the beneficial

effects

> attributed to tocotrienols in various studies, this includes 1 *cup*

of palm

> oil. however, that could be marketing hype since they are selling

mixed

> complex vit E supps.

Ok, so data are so widely varying we can't make anything of it, if we

accept all the data. I personally give more credence to Enig's

data, since Enig's purpose was to objectively describe the

components of various oils, whereas this sites purpose is to make both

WGO and PO look bad compared to supplements.

> ------->well, i read it wrong. LOL. it has 385 *mgs* (not *IUs*) per

perle.

> however, my statement was just a guess, without doing the math.

after doing

> the math i see that my ratio of CLO to WGO will be approx. 31:1.

Suze, you are still reading it wrong. It contains 385 mg of wheat

germ oil, not of vitamin E, which in turn contains somewher in the

vicinity of 2 IU. I strongly suspected this, since any reasonable

estimation would be that one would have to take a bottle or so of it

to equal the amount of vitamin E you were saying was in each capsule.

If you are taking, mg for mg, a 31:1 ratio of CLO to WGO, then there

is probably more vitamin E in the CLO itself than in the WGO, in terms

of your daily intake. Unless you are taking the WGO for some other

reason than vitamin E, it does not seem to me it has much value.

>

>

> >>>>1) I read a Standard Process article a year ago that I believe

you

> linked

> to-- not SP itself but Clayton Better Health Center-- and they

claimed that

> their

> SP vitamin E capsules had 8 IU per capsule. Are you sure the bottle

lists

> the amount as per capsule, and not as per some other amount?

>

> ---->yes, per " perle " but it's mgs, not IUs.

And it's also mg of wheat germ oil, not mg of vitamin E. This

explains why I found numerous web sites that contained stats on SP's

WGO that said 385 mg of WGO per perle, and none gave any vitamin E

value, except the ones which contained both 385 mg of WGO and were

*fortified* with 50 IU *extracted* from soy bean oil.

> ---->so there are 1.49 IUs in 1 mg? if i'm understanding that

correctly,

> then the SP WGO has 573 IUs vitamin E per perle. the thing is that

WGO is

> THE richest source of vitamin E (total count) compared to all other

oils in

> the data i've seen, so i'm not sure why it's hard to believe that

there

> could be 400 or so mgs or IUs in a perle..?

Because again, you don't have 385 mg of vitamin E, you have 385 mg of

wheat germ oil, which contains about a milligram and a half of vitamin

E.

> >>>But anyway, even if the conversion factor is misunderstood, it

remains

> that

> palm oil as 44% by mass the vitamin E of wheat germ oil. In

addition it is

> loaded with carotenes and doesn't have tons of pufa.

>

> ----->neither does a raisin-sized capsule of WGO which contains

approx 5-6

> *drops* of oil. i know because i open them up to drip onto my dog's

food and

> i squeeze till the last drop! LOL. no it doesn't have the carotenes

that

> palm oil does (chock one up for palm oil) but it may have other

beneficial

> compounds that we're not aware of.

Oh, it may well. And in fact, if you look at any sites that sell SP

products, they all say that if you just want vitamin E, you should

take Cataplex E, which contains about 2.5 IU of vitamin E. If you are

taking vitamin E and also want the other compounds which are primarily

advantageous for hormonal/reproductive problems, take the WGO, which

has even LESS vitamin E, but other beneficial compounds.

But again, I'm not telling you or even suggesting to you what *you*

should take for a supplement, but I'm making the point in the context

in which it was raised-- someone inquiring about how to protect their

PUFA from oxidizing-- that if you want vitamin E, palm oil is much

more cost-effective. As far as carotenes, I'm making the point that a

tbsp of palm oil a day replacing 1 tbsp of butter a day means a net

cost of NOTHING, and in fact probably a NET GAIN OF MONEY, due to the

fact that palm butter is cheaper than raw grass-fed butter, yet

constitutes both a carotene supplement and probably 5-10 of those WGO

pills, which would otherwise cost you probably $100 almost for a

bottle of each, or at least $60.

> ---->in very small quantities...

I apologize for deleting my quote, can't get it back, this was

regardin n-6s in animal fats etc. Yes, but you only need LA in small

quantities, no? If you consume 100 grams of fat a day, you need about

2.5 grams of n-6, right? And presumably you want primarily DGLA and

AA, and you want a lesser proportion of LA itself. It seems very

unlikely to run into a deficiency unless one is eating a diet overtly

deficient in fat itself.

>

> >>>> n-3s dominate grass, but it's only about 60% n-3s. Since you

> should have plenty of DGLA and AA from other foods, it seems like

anyone's

> LA

> should be met with most foods.

>

> ----->i didn't think that AA and DGLA could be converted back to LA

- can

> they? or maybe i did read that recently...it sounds vaguely

familiar...but

> wouldn't you need to have efficient D5D activity? and how efficient

is the

> overall conversion process? does a large amount of EPA and DHA

interefere

> with it?

I'm not aware of n-6s being converted *to* LA. That wasn't my point.

Animals don't convert pufas any more efficiently than humans do,

afaik, which means that all animal fats eating either grain or grass

will have significant quantities of LA. Right?

> ---->my wheatgerm oil only costs $6 for 60 perles.

Ok, I didn't realize how cheap this was compared to SP's other

products. Still, it remains that you get what you pay for-- which is

a miniscule amount of vitamin E.

A five gallon bucket of palm butter from TT costs $45, but I believe

WFN sells it for $25. If palm butter has a similar density to butter,

five gallons would be 40 pounds, which would be 18,144 grams, or

18,144,000 milligrams, which is equal in weight to 47,127 wheat germ

oil capsules. If Enig's figures are correct for combined vitamin

E per weight, this is equal to 20,736 wheat germ oil capsules in total

vimtain E content.

That equals 0.2 cents per capsule if you buy from TT, and 0.12 cents

per capsule if you buy from Wilderness Family Naturals (if that cost

figure is correct), and 10 cents if you buy the WGO capsules you are

taking.

****************

Cost comparison:

****************

So if you were to buy from Tropical Traditions, in terms of dollars

per units of vitamin E, buying wheat germ oil costs 50 times as much

as buying palm oil! If you buy from WFN, if my cost figure is

correct, buying wheat germ oil costs 83 times more than buying palm

oil!

****************

> > >>>IOW, I don't see any reason at all to consume wheat germ oil.

>

> ----->this is the only thing i'm disputing. you've continued to

knock WGO as

> a vitamin E source, but i don't see that it's justified. i don't

think

> either one of us has sufficient data on the vit E profile of either

oil to

> state definitively that one or the other is a waste of $ or that

there's no

> reason to consume it. certainly mary's data alone is clearly not

enough info

> to go on, and i'd imagine neither is the TT info on palm oil.

I personally agree to completely ignore TT's info. I think we should

also ignore the info you posted, simply because they are selling

something. That doesn't mean that is right and they are wrong,

but barring much more information about how each obtained their data

than we have, it would make sense to follow the data of the folks who

aren't selling anything.

i do

agree

> however, that palm oil seems to be the best source of tocotrienols

as

> compared to most other oils. however, whether or not the

tocotrienols it

> contains outweigh the extraordinary amount of tocopherols in WGO

seems

> debatable to me.

It depends whether or not you want to pay 83 times more for your WGO

just because it has a higher concentration.

> ---->right, but i'm not disputing your recommendation of palm oil. i

think

> it's good to have more than one suggestion, and i agree that it

seems like

> decent source of vitamin E. the only thing i'm disputing, again, is

your

> assertion that palm oil is the only reasonable food source of

vitamin E and

> that WGO is a waste of $. think they are both reasonable sources.

If you have money up the wazoo to pile cash onto supplements with tiny

amounts of vitman E that will probably have almost no effect on your

level of lipid oxidation, then WGO could be worth the money.

However, most people, given the chance to spend 1 dollar instead of 50

dollars or 83 dollars for equivalent effect, would spend the one

dollar.

Chris

[Guest guest]

chris, i don't have nearly enough time to reply to your various lengthy

posts on this subject today. shoot! i don't even have time to *read* them

all and check your figures. i just want to say that i made a mistake reading

the 385 mgs on the label as *vit. E* content, not WGO content. i simply

didn't notice that it's actually WGO content.

IF you're figures for palm oil and WGO are correct, then it certainly seems

like palm oil's a better source of vitamin E than wheatgerm oil. *however*

according to, not only the tocotrienol site's data, but also to the USDA

database as well as to mary enig, palm oil has considerably less vit E per

100 grams than does WGO. but again we come back to not knowing their

sources, the processing methods of the two differnt oils and the assay

methods that all these sources reference. so, even though they all show

considerably more vit. E in WGO than palm oil, i'm not necessarily convinced

it means that SP's WGO has more vit. E than TT's palm oil, for example. but

since *all* these sources list significantly more vit E in WGO than in palm

oil, i'm not sure where you arrive at your various figures and cost

analysis.

i also want to mention, i do believe you're relying much too heavily on a

single source to make any definitive calculations on the vit E content of

these oils. dismissing data from a commercial site (that referenced the

figures from non-commercial sources, btw) seems ridiculous to me. in that

case anything at all that i write about web design on my website should

automatically be dismissed out of hand because i am selling websites. in the

same vein, we shouldn't believe any info on DMM's site about nutriton

because he's selling supplements. that just doesn't make sense. read the

data, check the source and use your best judgement...seems like a more

reasonable approach, imo.

in any case, perhaps you could address the simple matter that *all* of these

sources list significantly more vit E in WGO than palm oil? am i missing

something here? i confess i mostly scanned your emails, but you can't blame

me considerign the sheer volume you've written on this subject today! LOL

suze