Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 , I'd like to thank you for educated response! My opinion was just based on what I learned on my own and heard from others. You really have opened my eyes to why one child should stay in pre-k for another year and why another would continue on to kindergaten. The thing that bothers me is when I hear parents say they're holding back their child because everyone else is doing it or I don't want to let them go yet. Does this make any sense at all? I have heard that the majority of the kids that aren't ready are boys. I have a friend who has a DD, that was ready to move on and she decided to hold her back a year because 1. Eveyrone else was doing it and 2. Because she didn't want to let her go yet. Even though her pre-k teacher told her she should move on. It seems there are a few parents of kids in my DD's class who feel they know better then the Special Education Pre-K teacher even though they have no formal education proving such and that bugs me too. Also, my DD is in this pre-k class as a mentor peer (I think that's what she's called) so, there probably are kids her age, that aren't or weren't ready. That's the extent of my experiences with this so please forgive my ignorance. I'm babbling and don't even know if I made any sense or made myself sound dumber then I already am. Thanks again, you've really helped me understand all of this! Kimnancydewolf <nancydewolf@...> wrote: Warning! is on a soapbox and this will be long! I have worked with preschoolers since I was in high school and last year was president of my daughter's cooperative preschool. I have worked with some of the best teachers as their assistant and have also been the lead camp counselor for preschoolers. I'm a certified teacher for secondary education (7th - 12th grade) but my real love is preschoolers, I just was concerned I wouldn't have been able to make enough money to move out on my own teaching preschool to pursue it. ANYWAY, I add that "resume" before I state my opinion... preschool is primarily for teaching social skills, helping children learn to share and work cooperatively with other kids, helping them learn to sit and listen and interact appropriately and should also help them develop visual, gross and fine motor skills. If they don't have those skills in place before kindergarten starts, they aren't going to catch up easily because kindergarten is becoming so much more academic now than it ever has been before (including play-based, also called developmental, kindergarten programs) and doesn't include as much time for development of these incredibly important pre-academic skills as it used to. I helped our teacher evaluate kids last year regarding whether they should be referred for medical and/or educational evaluations for possible issues and whether she'd recommend they go on to kindergarten in the fall (this was not a duty of the president, she trusted my opinion, I also have a special needs child and have learned more than I ever wanted about the educational system and special needs). Readiness for kindergarten should not be based primarily on a child's birthday and/or age. Many children, especially boys, need more time to learn social skills, especially learning to sit and listen for more than a few minutes at a time, emotional skills (learning to handle disappointment and frustration when they don't get their own way because they're not the only kid the teacher is working with) and further develop gross and fine motor skills. Children who enter kindergarten without these skills sufficiently developed will be left behind because a teacher with 20+ kids in the class can't take the time they need for one-on-one help to make sure they are with the rest of the class. The curriculum is being pushed downward too with kids in every grade being expected to do more academically today than they've ever been asked to do, including things that many teachers consider too soon but legislators are pushing them through anyway in the name of keeping us "competitive" with the rest of the world. The kids who start school before they are truly ready will be expected to take on academic content before they are ready for it too. These kids often see themselves as "slow" or "different" because they can't do things their peers do or they can't do it as fast or as competently. They are frustrated and don't see themselves as successful learners. This self-image can follow them through school and life too. On the other hand, children who have been given the extra year to mature find kindergarten, their first "real school" experience as many parents and kids see it, enjoyable and have a successful year that bring them greater self-esteem as well as social and academic confidence. Our school district now has a "junior kindergarten" program, also referred to as "young fives" elsewhere, for kids whose birthdays are late in the year or who for whatever other reason simply are not expected to succeed in a traditional kindergarten program. Out of 11 kids in our 4 year old program last year, 8 of whom were boys, we suggested at least 4 or 5 of them look into these programs. Some of these kids are academically gifted but they do not have the other skills in place and will have a more difficult time living up to their academic potential. These programs are not a repeat of preschool. They introduce some academics but also emphasize helping kids develop the skills they need to do well in kindergarten. Our school's program has an extra recess for the kids (which they really need) and also greater emphasis on motor work, plus different expectations for how much kids can sit and listen, function in a group, etc. and aims at increasing those abilities (but from a different starting point than a traditional kindergarten program). In our case, they then go into kindergarten the following year and it is a different program, with more academic content and higher expectations in the various skill areas. They did not have this program when my son entered kindergarten (and no one suggested we find one for him, he had a different preschool teacher than my daughter too) but after they started, when he was already in 1st grade, I found myself wishing he were younger so I could start over and put him in it. His birthday is May 21st. Late in the school year but not considered a traditional "late" birthday since in Michigan kids have to be 5 by Dec. 1st to start kindergarten. I thought about holding him back but since his birthday was May I thought he might seem too big or too old starting him a year later and no one was suggesting I should at that time (though at the end of preschool his teacher said she was concerned about how he'd do and that I should have my doctor look at him because he melted down easily). Friends and family said "oh he's just a boy, he'll be fine." Hindsight being 20/20, over the last few years I have found myself wishing many times I had had the courage to hold him back anyway. He struggled SO MUCH in kindergarten through 2nd grade. He felt so miserable so much of the time at first and now, in 3rd grade, he's finally working mostly at grade level (with assistance) and finally has developed age appropriate social skills. He has good friends and is gradually growing in academic confidence. It has been a huge struggle for him and it has been heartbreaking for me watching him. This is our best year so far and it is a huge blessing. He does have special needs that, when he was younger especially, interfered with social skills and other functioning (his fine motor skills are quite poor and his gross motor is at age level but low, when he was younger he had many more problems than he does now). This makes him a special case too so not like an average 5 year old but I know enough from him and from working with "typical" and atypical preschoolers that many other children benefit from starting school a year later than their age-related peers because they are not peers in more important ways. As I said, overall, my son is doing absolutely great now. He still, because of his disabilities, needs some educational help but overall, he's up to where his age-related peers and classmates are. I will always wonder though if I had held him back a year if he would have had a less difficult start. My daughter's birthday is October 2 and she's very tiny. Her preschool teacher was confident she'd do well because socially, emotionally and motorically she was right up there with the older kids and ahead of many of them too. I thought so too but because of my experiences with my son was hesitant to believe my own intuition (I felt I should have listened to it better with my son). She's very bright and was reading and doing math at age 4 (on her own, not with me pushing anything on her). I was still concerned because of her age and size so I asked the school to evaluate her for possible placement in junior kindergarten (which they recommend for kids with fall birthdays anyway) and afterwards they assured me she would do great in the kindergarten program and beyond. So far, half way through kindergarten she is doing extremely well. It is a totally different experience than the one I had with my son too. I'm still glad, despite my own awareness of her skills and her teacher's assurances, that I had her evaluated. It just made me feel that much more sure of my decision to start her at 4 turning 5 shortly after the school year started. Anyway... that's my opinion... and I'm not too worried about offending anyone with it because I'm confident about it. I get very emotional about this subject though so I hope I didn't Express myself in a way that sounded like I was putting anyone down for having a different opinion. If I did, just tell me so that I can make amends. Thanks! Thanks for reading this to the end too! And my next post will be about the exercise I did which will happen tomorrow since I haven't had a chance to do any for the last two days! RE: OT: school/Donna I feel the same as you do. It's basically the same rules here. Right now, it's full-day kindergarten. They started it this school year. My DD, who is our only child, like yours, has been going to Pre-K. She goes 3 days a week for 2.5 hours. She LOVES school and like your daughter, has just blossomed so much since going. She will be 5 in June, so she definitely makes the cut-off date which here is December 31st. I'm a little concerned because it seems everyone is holding back their kids a year. Most of the kids in her pre-K class should have gone to kindergarten this year but their parents held them back. I just think this becomes a vicious cycle. I think that if the child doesn't make the grade in kindergarten then that's when you hold them back. Just my opinion of course. Thanks for listening! This subject of holding kids back has always bugged me. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Kim Donna M-P <donna112520 > wrote: Very interesting, !! So, they start on theirbirthdays as opposed to at the start of a "semester"or "school year" That is interesting, how does a newstudent then catch up to what the rest of the classhas been doing up until the point they joined in?Where I live they have changed the cut off date forschool as September 1st. So to enter kindergartenhere a kid must be 5 by Sept 1st (this is sort ofstrange to me b/c I had a Nov. b-day and I startedkindergarten in Sept at 4 and turned 5 that Nov.). Alot of parents are holding their kids back a year ifthey fall close to the cut off. My daughter makes thecut off by one month! Many choose to do an extra yearof pre-school and have them start kindergarten at 6. I think part of that decision is that kindergartenwill be all day here next year (or it may already be-not sure - I know for sure when my daughter goes itwill be all day) and is much more academic than it wasfor me. Pre-school, as you know, isn't mandatory,though most do send their kids and it can range fromanything from a few hours a few times per week to a 5day a week full day program. My DD goes for 2.5 hourstwice a week. I'm not sure what to do next year,though. On the one hand, I'm not big at rushing her togrow up, but on the other hand I want her ready toface all day kindegarten five days a week thefollowing year (I think she'll be ready!).As you know I was really thinking of homeschooling forawhile, but my DD has really blossomed in pre-school -I think the structure and being with other kids (she'san only child) has really helped her. She looksforward to going every day and she's actually a sortof "leader" among the other kids! Go figure, I wasn'tsure that she would take to school at all. Now, whoknows what will happpen as time goes on - but so farI'm really happy I tried preschool for her. With oursnow days this week she has been missing school! :)I'm playing it by ear for next year, though and evenfor Kindergarten the following year - since she willbe one of the "younger" ones in her class. Right nowshe's the youngest in her pre-school class! The restof her classmates are pretty much all turning 4 thismonth!Take care!Donna --- Sprague <kittynveeneman (DOT) info> wrote:> Our school system is a bit strange compared to US> standards. Children have> to go to school starting from their 5th birthday but> most children (never> met anyone who didn’t) start on their 4th birthday> (some politicians want to> change the age to 3!). Kids from preschool to grade> 2 have full days on> Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. And half days on> Wednesday and Friday. They> come home for lunch at most schools although it is> possible to let them stay> if you have to. When they reach 3rd grade they have> only half Wednesdays. A> lot of after school activities are on Wednesdays so> most kids have something> they do then. Most kids do some kind of sport and> some sort of music or art> after school. When they reach 6th grade they take a> test that determines> which middle/high school they can go to. They have> the trade middle school,> the college middle school and the university middle> school. And once you are> in you can’t really move up. We have a good choice> of elementary schools> too. You can choose private, public, religious,> specific education types,> etc. We were in a Montessori school but the school> wasn’t a very good> Montessori school so we switched to a Catholic> school which really isn’t> overly religious they mostly teach values not> religion. The teachers here> are great though. The best part is no matter what> school you choose you pay> according to your income. Oh and kids walk or bike> to school which means> none of that bus bullying that was around when I was> growing up (the mildest> form of this being the you can’t sit next to me> type)! Each school sets its> own schedule. Right now we have to be at school> ready at 8:30. Then they are> picked up for lunch at 11:45. back at school ready> at 1 and picked up for> the day at 3:15. Our old school was at school at> 8:30, pickup at 2:45,> everyone had to eat at school. We also have only 6> weeks summer vacation,> but plenty of little breaks in the year (vacation> time is controlled by the> county so most schools have the same schedule) The> last week of February we> have a week’s vacation- they call it Crocus vacation> :-) > > It has its ups and downs, I’d a be homeschooler in> the US but from what I> understand here homeschooled kids are considered not> schooled and can’t get> into college or university without Major Problems.> We still afterschool I> feel the curriculum isn’t what I would want for them> (no history and little> science until grade 3) And I really think 4 is to> early to go to school> fulltime. But talking to people from other countries> I realize we are lucky.> Someone was telling me that from age 3 they go to> school from 7am to 4pm. I> would hate that! The most important thing is they> are getting an education.> > > > > > > > _____ > > What is the school calendar like there ? Sounds> quite different than> the US. I'm already thinking ahead to our next> school year (in the fall)> when my little one will be going to school all day.> It will be really weird> not to have a child in the house at least half the> day but I am looking> forward to uninterrupted time to think, hopefully> without rushing around to> get things done like I do now with her gone half> days. I know I will miss> her a lot though, I still miss her brother and he's> in 3rd grade. I'm also> looking forward to being able to do longer workout> sessions without feeling> like half my child-free time is taken up by my> workouts. > > > > > > > > > > > --> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 -> Release Date: 2/12/2007> > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.39/687 -> Release Date: 2/14/2007> > __________________________________________________________Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.http://farechase./promo-generic-14795097 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Hi Kim (and everyone else, I'm going to try and answer as many of these as I can this morning and will do more later, I hear worried parents and I really do want to help), First of all, thank you very much. I'm glad to hear I was able to offer a new, more reasoned perspective for you to think about. Will answer the rest below.... RE: OT: school/Donna I feel the same as you do. It's basically the same rules here. Right now, it's full-day kindergarten. They started it this school year. My DD, who is our only child, like yours, has been going to Pre-K. She goes 3 days a week for 2.5 hours. She LOVES school and like your daughter, has just blossomed so much since going. She will be 5 in June, so she definitely makes the cut-off date which here is December 31st. I'm a little concerned because it seems everyone is holding back their kids a year. Most of the kids in her pre-K class should have gone to kindergarten this year but their parents held them back. I just think this becomes a vicious cycle. I think that if the child doesn't make the grade in kindergarten then that's when you hold them back. Just my opinion of course. Thanks for listening! This subject of holding kids back has always bugged me. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Kim Donna M-P <donna112520 > wrote: Very interesting, !! So, they start on theirbirthdays as opposed to at the start of a "semester"or "school year" That is interesting, how does a newstudent then catch up to what the rest of the classhas been doing up until the point they joined in?Where I live they have changed the cut off date forschool as September 1st. So to enter kindergartenhere a kid must be 5 by Sept 1st (this is sort ofstrange to me b/c I had a Nov. b-day and I startedkindergarten in Sept at 4 and turned 5 that Nov.). Alot of parents are holding their kids back a year ifthey fall close to the cut off. My daughter makes thecut off by one month! Many choose to do an extra yearof pre-school and have them start kindergarten at 6. I think part of that decision is that kindergartenwill be all day here next year (or it may already be-not sure - I know for sure when my daughter goes itwill be all day) and is much more academic than it wasfor me. Pre-school, as you know, isn't mandatory,though most do send their kids and it can range fromanything from a few hours a few times per week to a 5day a week full day program. My DD goes for 2.5 hourstwice a week. I'm not sure what to do next year,though. On the one hand, I'm not big at rushing her togrow up, but on the other hand I want her ready toface all day kindegarten five days a week thefollowing year (I think she'll be ready!).As you know I was really thinking of homeschooling forawhile, but my DD has really blossomed in pre-school -I think the structure and being with other kids (she'san only child) has really helped her. She looksforward to going every day and she's actually a sortof "leader" among the other kids! Go figure, I wasn'tsure that she would take to school at all. Now, whoknows what will happpen as time goes on - but so farI'm really happy I tried preschool for her. With oursnow days this week she has been missing school! :)I'm playing it by ear for next year, though and evenfor Kindergarten the following year - since she willbe one of the "younger" ones in her class. Right nowshe's the youngest in her pre-school class! The restof her classmates are pretty much all turning 4 thismonth!Take care!Donna --- Sprague <kittynveeneman (DOT) info> wrote:> Our school system is a bit strange compared to US> standards. Children have> to go to school starting from their 5th birthday but> most children (never> met anyone who didn’t) start on their 4th birthday> (some politicians want to> change the age to 3!). Kids from preschool to grade> 2 have full days on> Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. And half days on> Wednesday and Friday. They> come home for lunch at most schools although it is> possible to let them stay> if you have to. When they reach 3rd grade they have> only half Wednesdays. A> lot of after school activities are on Wednesdays so> most kids have something> they do then. Most kids do some kind of sport and> some sort of music or art> after school. When they reach 6th grade they take a> test that determines> which middle/high school they can go to. They have> the trade middle school,> the college middle school and the university middle> school. And once you are> in you can’t really move up. We have a good choice> of elementary schools> too. You can choose private, public, religious,> specific education types,> etc. We were in a Montessori school but the school> wasn’t a very good> Montessori school so we switched to a Catholic> school which really isn’t> overly religious they mostly teach values not> religion. The teachers here> are great though. The best part is no matter what> school you choose you pay> according to your income. Oh and kids walk or bike> to school which means> none of that bus bullying that was around when I was> growing up (the mildest> form of this being the you can’t sit next to me> type)! Each school sets its> own schedule. Right now we have to be at school> ready at 8:30. Then they are> picked up for lunch at 11:45. back at school ready> at 1 and picked up for> the day at 3:15. Our old school was at school at> 8:30, pickup at 2:45,> everyone had to eat at school. We also have only 6> weeks summer vacation,> but plenty of little breaks in the year (vacation> time is controlled by the> county so most schools have the same schedule) The> last week of February we> have a week’s vacation- they call it Crocus vacation> :-) > > It has its ups and downs, I’d a be homeschooler in> the US but from what I> understand here homeschooled kids are considered not> schooled and can’t get> into college or university without Major Problems.> We still afterschool I> feel the curriculum isn’t what I would want for them> (no history and little> science until grade 3) And I really think 4 is to> early to go to school> fulltime. But talking to people from other countries> I realize we are lucky.> Someone was telling me that from age 3 they go to> school from 7am to 4pm. I> would hate that! The most important thing is they> are getting an education.> > > > > > > > _____ > > What is the school calendar like there ? Sounds> quite different than> the US. I'm already thinking ahead to our next> school year (in the fall)> when my little one will be going to school all day.> It will be really weird> not to have a child in the house at least half the> day but I am looking> forward to uninterrupted time to think, hopefully> without rushing around to> get things done like I do now with her gone half> days. I know I will miss> her a lot though, I still miss her brother and he's> in 3rd grade. I'm also> looking forward to being able to do longer workout> sessions without feeling> like half my child-free time is taken up by my> workouts. > > > > > > > > > > > --> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 -> Release Date: 2/12/2007> > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.39/687 -> Release Date: 2/14/2007> > __________________________________________________________Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.http://farechase./promo-generic-14795097 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Sometimes the parent really does know best. I don’t think a parent’s judgment should be thrown out the window just because they don’t have a degree in education. I feel a parent knows their child best and if for example a parent says my child reads on first grade level and takes a high interest in drawing, if he doesn’t show that at school that doesn’t mean he can’t do it. It just means that for some reason he doesn’t feel safe enough to show what he can do at school. A teacher will see other things a parent does and to me there should be a way for parent and teacher both to have faith in what the child can and can’t do. I also don’t think a degree in education means that a teacher is always right. I think there has been so much progress made in the last few years that even a teacher who graduated 10 years ago may not be up to date and even teachers graduating now may not be up to date (I know they have to take so many credits to be able to continue to teach or they did when I was in school, but I also know that some teachers would take the teacher’s equivalent of pottery). Also many parents study education – they study the school systems, types of education, the problems children can have and how to deal with them. I know parents without degrees who have spent more time studying education than those with degrees. Some teachers are great and evaluate each child as an individual but others shove problem children to the side and wait until the problem is so huge it needs outside help to deal with it. A good teacher can change a child’s life but so can a bad teacher. As a parent I have always tried to listen to what the teacher says and attempt to get them to listen to me, unfortunately I find many teachers are unwilling to listen to parents opinions about their children – basically making the assumption that a parent knows nothing about their child. Of course I feel it is hard for the school system to deal with children who are different in whatever way they try but a lot of different kids need a personalized education plan – one that covers the bases in a way they can deal with it. Not being in the US now, I don’t know how it is, but there didn’t used to be a way for slower children or faster children to proceed at their own pace except in a limited way once they reach high school. I would guess now it all depends on the school system. The education at a school is only as good as the teacher… It seems there are a few parents of kids in my DD's class who feel they know better then the Special Education Pre-K teacher even though they have no formal education proving such and that bugs me too. Also, my DD is in this pre-k class as a mentor peer (I think that's what she's called) so, there probably are kids her age, that aren't or weren't ready. That's the extent of my experiences with this so please forgive my ignorance. I'm babbling and don't even know if I made any sense or made myself sound dumber then I already am. Thanks again, you've really helped me understand all of this! Kim -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 I agree with you but, as my other note said, I fully believe a partnership between parent and teacher benefits the child the most, if it is possible and in most cases I've found it is. Parents need to be willing to admit their kids aren't perfect and teachers need to be willing to listen to parents' insights into their own children too. When you've got that then the kids have very powerful allies helping them to soar. Will address the special ed (gifted included) stuff in another note later tonight. RE: OT: school/ Sometimes the parent really does know best. I don’t think a parent’s judgment should be thrown out the window just because they don’t have a degree in education. I feel a parent knows their child best and if for example a parent says my child reads on first grade level and takes a high interest in drawing, if he doesn’t show that at school that doesn’t mean he can’t do it. It just means that for some reason he doesn’t feel safe enough to show what he can do at school. A teacher will see other things a parent does and to me there should be a way for parent and teacher both to have faith in what the child can and can’t do. I also don’t think a degree in education means that a teacher is always right. I think there has been so much progress made in the last few years that even a teacher who graduated 10 years ago may not be up to date and even teachers graduating now may not be up to date (I know they have to take so many credits to be able to continue to teach or they did when I was in school, but I also know that some teachers would take the teacher’s equivalent of pottery). Also many parents study education – they study the school systems, types of education, the problems children can have and how to deal with them. I know parents without degrees who have spent more time studying education than those with degrees. Some teachers are great and evaluate each child as an individual but others shove problem children to the side and wait until the problem is so huge it needs outside help to deal with it. A good teacher can change a child’s life but so can a bad teacher. As a parent I have always tried to listen to what the teacher says and attempt to get them to listen to me, unfortunately I find many teachers are unwilling to listen to parents opinions about their children – basically making the assumption that a parent knows nothing about their child. Of course I feel it is hard for the school system to deal with children who are different in whatever way they try but a lot of different kids need a personalized education plan – one that covers the bases in a way they can deal with it. Not being in the US now, I don’t know how it is, but there didn’t used to be a way for slower children or faster children to proceed at their own pace except in a limited way once they reach high school. I would guess now it all depends on the school system. The education at a school is only as good as the teacher… It seems there are a few parents of kids in my DD's class who feel they know better then the Special Education Pre-K teacher even though they have no formal education proving such and that bugs me too. Also, my DD is in this pre-k class as a mentor peer (I think that's what she's called) so, there probably are kids her age, that aren't or weren't ready. That's the extent of my experiences with this so please forgive my ignorance. I'm babbling and don't even know if I made any sense or made myself sound dumber then I already am. Thanks again, you've really helped me understand all of this! Kim --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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