Re: Re: Lincoln (was OT: Libertarian Demographics)

[Guest guest]

I don't think his own words make much of anything clear, because as a

presidential candidate and or president a lot of political maneuvering is

required

both public and private.

Chris

In a message dated 9/19/03 2:19:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

slethnobotanist@... writes:

> While it is controversial as to Lincoln's anti-slavery activities before

> he was elected since there is some evidence that he supported and

> defended a slaveowner, Lincoln's own words make pretty clear his

> position on slavery and blacks.

>

> 1. He thought the slaves should be free

>

> 2. He thought blacks were inferior

>

> 3. Upon freeing the slaves he wanted them deported from America

>

> 4. For him, slavery was not the issue in the war, but it did provide the

> moral cover he needed to press his case. Not much different from modern

> presidents, of which he is definitely the model.

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/19/03 3:01:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

slethnobotanist@... writes:

> The problem with this line of argumentation is that Lincoln made these

> kinds of odious statements even when he wasn't running for office, which

> leads me to believe that he actually believed them.

>

Some of them, not all of them. For example, the the justification for the

war came later obviously. My understanding is that he entertained the idea of

shipping the slaves back to Africa but later abandoned it, though it's been a

while and I might be wrong. He probably did think blacks were inferior, since

it seems most white people did, even lots in the anti-slavery movement, but

I'd have to take a closer look at who he was saying these things to and why,

regardless of presidency. Even the black anti-slavery activists were to some

degree marketing agents for the movement, in that they had to phrase their

arguments in a way that would sell the movement to white people, which didn't

always

mean a completely honest stance in favor of racial equality.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:38:50 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

>,

>

>You're ignoring the fact that Lincoln was an anti-slavery activist before he

>ran for President, and that unpopular positions need to be " sold " and when

>they are sold to realists, they are sold in terms of power plays. I haven't

>studied it closely, but I've read arguments for and against the idea that

Lincoln

>didn't want to free the slaves, and I believe he did.

While it is controversial as to Lincoln's anti-slavery activities before

he was elected since there is some evidence that he supported and

defended a slaveowner, Lincoln's own words make pretty clear his

position on slavery and blacks.

1. He thought the slaves should be free

2. He thought blacks were inferior

3. Upon freeing the slaves he wanted them deported from America

4. For him, slavery was not the issue in the war, but it did provide the

moral cover he needed to press his case. Not much different from modern

presidents, of which he is definitely the model.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:24:30 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

>I don't think his own words make much of anything clear, because as a

>presidential candidate and or president a lot of political maneuvering is

required

>both public and private.

>

>Chris

The problem with this line of argumentation is that Lincoln made these

kinds of odious statements even when he wasn't running for office, which

leads me to believe that he actually believed them.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

1. He thought the slaves should be free

2. He thought blacks were inferior

3. Upon freeing the slaves he wanted them deported from America

4. For him, slavery was not the issue in the war, but it did provide the

moral cover he needed to press his case. Not much different from modern

presidents, of which he is definitely the model.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:21:11 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/19/03 3:01:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>slethnobotanist@... writes:

>

>> The problem with this line of argumentation is that Lincoln made these

>> kinds of odious statements even when he wasn't running for office, which

>> leads me to believe that he actually believed them.

>>

>

>Some of them, not all of them. For example, the the justification for the

>war came later obviously.

Right I should have deleted that one in my response

My understanding is that he entertained the idea of

>shipping the slaves back to Africa but later abandoned it, though it's been a

>while and I might be wrong.

He never gave up the idea. He wanted to deport them to Africa, the

Carribean, and the South Pacific.

Here is Mr. Lincoln in his own words:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing

about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black

races; that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making

voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor

to intermarry with white people, and I will say in addition to this that

there is a physical difference between the black and white races which I

believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of

social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live,

while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and

inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the

superior position assigned to the white race. (p 21)

C. Vann Woodward’s _The Strange Career of Jim Crow_.

He probably did think blacks were inferior, since

>it seems most white people did, even lots in the anti-slavery movement, but

>I'd have to take a closer look at who he was saying these things to and why,

>regardless of presidency. Even the black anti-slavery activists were to some

>degree marketing agents for the movement, in that they had to phrase their

>arguments in a way that would sell the movement to white people, which didn't

always

>mean a completely honest stance in favor of racial equality.

Some good recent books on the subject, IMO, are Ebony magazine editor

Lerone Jr's, _Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln’s White Dream_

and, _The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and

an Unnecessary War_, by DiLorenzo.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv